pak mei tonfas

[tonfas]

pak mei tonfas is single or double?
any one can help me to learnt this form or any southern style kung fu???

Tonfas@hotmail.com

[Pakmei]

The Pak Mei Tonfa's (Sern Gwai) are double tonfa's.
Do you actually practise Pak Mei?
Because the Tonfa form is not usually taught openly, as the techniques are very specific to Pak Mei.
If you do practise Pak Mei, how long have you been learning. It pointless learning weapons if you don't know the basic body mechanics and hand techniques of Pak Mei.
Usually you find that the Sifu, will choose a weapon according to your body build and personality, and only some of the Disciples will learn the whole system.
I'm quite fortunate that my Sifu, trusts me enough to teach me what would be considered as "Closed Door teachings", so in order to answer your question, Yes I know the Sern Gwai, as well as quite a few of the other weapons.
But I will guarantee that this form, is not easily passed on; as a lot of Sifu's regard it as a secret form.

Dave Stevens

[Olaf]

Interesting. You say that the form uses Pak mei principles. The weapons taught in Pak mei are usually Lee Gar (staff and trident). Are there other weapons as well that you would consider to be Pak mei? (vs borrowed from other systems)

[Shaolin Master]

Though the forms are from other styles (especially Li Gar) they do not share the power generation concepts as they originally were, rather they have become a part of Bak Mei Pai no matter their origin like all other sets from Sam Mun, Sek Si Sup Ji to Tai Chun Gwun and the Seung Guai.

Secondly, don't some of the actions of the Double Tonfa resemble MengFuChutLum.
Also, noting that the double tonfas are not found in the LiGar branch that I am acquainted with.

Peace
Shi Chan Long

[This message was edited by ShaolinMaster on 03-02-01 at 04:51 AM.]

[Olaf]

I have never seen the tonfa set. I was just surprised to read that it uses the pak mei principles. It didn't know that there are any Pak Mei weapon sets.

[Pakmei]

The Pak Mei weapons that we train are:

Pak Mei Stick
Double Tonfa's
Double Butterfly Knives
Tiger Fork
KwanDao
Knife and Sheild
Bench Chair.

None of which are openly displayed during Chinese New Year or Mid Autumn Festival.
If we show any weapons then we usually show the WuShu Broadsword and Straight Sword and Spear and Stick.

Out of the forms the ones that I have been taught are:

Pak Mei Stick
Bench Chair
Doouble Tonfa's

I think it is important to that you have to separate yourself from what used to be another style (i.e. Lee Gar, etc.)
What ever form you practise now (be it hand or weapon), is basically Pak Mei, with the concepts and principles of Pak Mei interwoven into the form.

It doesn't benefit the Pak Mei style,if students are constantly comparing the styles that Chueng Li Chuen introduced and converted into the system against the original forms that the Monk "Pak Mei" created.

All the forms that are now practised are considered "PAKMEI". Irrespective of what style they were originated.

Dave Stevens

[Lau]

Nice topic,

I don't think it is relevant if a weapons form is from pak mei or not (As long as it is not modern wushu). For example the Lee gar stick forms: They are good to practice. It is the Lee Gar technique mixed with the pak mei power. Same goes for the tiger fork. So it surely is beneficial for your Pak Mei power development.

Regards, Lau

[This message was edited by Lau on 03-02-01 at 07:18 AM.]

[tonfas]

I am sorry, i through pak mei has a single tonfa,

eg left hand tonfas, right hand single broad sword? is this correct? please help me to known?

[fiercest tiger]

shaolinmaster is correct about the mung fu chut lum and tonfas, the opening sequence yes. The power development the tonfa gives the pakmei stylist is wrist ging, which is the most important aspect of this weapon.

pakmei here demostrate this at almost every tourney and there butterfly knives.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[kull]

Great point guys! I tried to make this distinction to other ppl. on a previous post b4.

Pak Mei movements that were burrowed from Sek Si, Lee, Dragon...are no longer the same version as it was from its original. On a superficial level it may resemble its previous origin, but in its principle it is totally different, even with closely related styles such as dragon.

If your weapons/hand form are the same in principle and technique as a Lee, dragon style...then what is it that you have learned about Pak Mei?

[This message was edited by kull on 03-02-01 at 12:44 PM.]

[tonfas]

Hi Shaolin Master, it sounds that you had learnt this tonfas form, would you like to make a tape and sale to me, i am really love this form.

any one can help me with this.

Tonfas@hotmail.com ;)

[mantis108]

Hi PakMei and Lau,

Nice to see you guys are back. Good posts by the way.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[tnwingtsun]

That is the name of the weapon set as I have been taught.Although I did not learn the form I had to learn the combat applications of this weapon and help teach this to our many police students,in America the PR-24(a long version of the tonfa) has replaced the nightstick of old in most Police Departments.You guys hit it on the head!!the commit about the hand sets changing from Li gar,dragon,ect. after CLC's studys with the Monk are right on the money!!,thank you all for saying this,also the guy in the UK,I agree 100% with you about the power generation concerning the weapons,they are Bai Mei pure and simple,if ya don't have a foundation in Bai Mei then you will miss out by just learning the set.At the time, I worked in the law inforcement field so this was a must to know this weapon and it is VERY different from the japanese versions,Bai Mei Butterfly knifes??,WOW!,thats a new on me!,I would ask ya too send me the videos but you don't know me and I understand why Bai Mei sifus keep them safe under lock and key,too many people try to get a hold of these sets without having the proper foundation and solidity(and guidance from a good sifu)and what happens?,mine and all my brothers precious art would be in danger of being watered down.So I salute you concerns Pakmei!

[MoQ]

People getting hold of separate sets w/o a proper foundation is a really, really big problem in kung fu in general, but with the more esoteric systems, it's a tragedy. Thanks tnwingchun for the insight and respect.

[tonfas]

Thanks guys,

i just received a email form some one, he told me the tonfas has 18 mor kiew techniques involved???

Is this true??

every body likes to talk about tonfas???

Any tape of this form for sale

Please email me at

tonfas@hotmail.com

[tnwingtsun]

Thanks MoQ,it is indeed a tradgey,when these collectors of forms that have no roots or understanding of the system learn from a video or go see someone,tape them doing the set and practice without a clue as to the basics or body mech. of the system.Tonfa I'm not saying that you're not entitled to this knowledge but I don't know if you have a Bai Mei background with a skilled sifu,if you don't then what would be the point?,find one if you're able to and work the hands and body before thinking about weapons.
I've seen these so called "Sifus" that are nothing but con men that have a little Karate a year or so of Kung-Fu(from another con man),a used car sales course and suddenly these guys are masters!,tell ya a true story,there are these guys that went to china,taped some real sifus,brought them back to America and with a little Karate under their belt these guys jumped on the Kung-Fu bandwagon,they could not comprehend what was taking place on these tapes!
Sure,they could copy the movements but they were nothing but paper tigers,now to beat it all they had another one of their con men sifus claim that Chang Lai Chuen is still alive living in his basement teaching them real Bai Mei! No telling how many people they got hurt teaching garbage.
This guy in the UK,Pak Mei,don't know him,I don't know if he's an closed door disciple or not,he seems to know what he's talking about and thats why I e-mailed him with an invite to my school if he's ever in my neck of the woods,and that goes for the rest of the Bai Mei/Pak Mei people.
IMHO I think we should stick together and make sure that the con men don't mess it up for future generations.
Bai Mei Butterfly Knifes???,as I said before,I'd love to see and learn the set,better from a real person than a video,video would be better than nothing,my school and sifu are on my profile.
I'm very easy to find.
BTW thanks to the gate keepers of this system.
I'd hate to wake up one day and see a Bai Mei school on every block like the Mc Donalds of
MAs that Tae-Kwon-Do has become.
And good luck Tonfa,I really mean that
Peace guys
Don

[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 03-04-01 at 11:29 PM.]

[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 03-04-01 at 11:36 PM.]

[fiercest tiger]

someone is having you on! the start does resemble the tiger exits the forest though.

where do you train and who with? :)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[tonfas]

Hi tnwingtsun and moq,

I just spoke to one of the pak mei teacher,

they said, tonfas only teacher selective students.

they are afraid the arts teaching the wrong people
so they keep it until they find a right person

What is the right person????

I do not known.

:)

[tnwingtsun]

If you feel you are the right person,then be respectful and express your passion,ask,you only live once in this lifetime,it would useless to learn the Bai Mei tonfa without having a foundation in this system,do you have a Bai Mei Sifu? or do you just wish to have the set?

[Black Jack]

I know this is not my feild by any means but I thought that Bak Mei only had two weapon sets?

1. Double daggers
2. Staff

10 forms and 2 weapon sets to round it out?

Regards

[MoQ]

The right person is one who learns what his teacher teaches and doesn't synthesize his own timeline for leaning, seeking out a bootlegger rather than the honest path...

Different lines must have various weapons, so collecting them all is for... collectors.
Some have Tiger Fork etc. but a japanese weapon like tonfas is gonna be pretty recent and "rare" for other reasons than its "deep"...

[Pakmei]

Actually you may find that the Tonfa's are actually of Chinese origin.

Originally the Chinese Tonfa's are longer in length and were used as crutches by cripple people who used them to drag themsleves across the floor as well as to protect themsleves against being mugged.

It was also a farming tool used by local farmers and Monks in harvesting crops. When the Shoalin styles were introduced to Okinarwa, Japan and later become known as Karate, you may find that a lot of the weaponary skills were also introduced and stripped of their essence, to make it more easily understood by the Japanese.

But also if you think about it, you can get a Tonfa like weapon when you break apart a chair and use one of the legs with a support strut.

If you look at Shoalin Gung Fu, you'll find the their something like the 18 weapons of Shoalin, which include a tonfa like weapon.

So I don't think the Tonfa set is a recent edition to Pak Mei, it may well have added to Pak Mei during Chueng Li Chuen era, but the Tonfa's are definitely not a Japanese invention by any means.

Dave Stevens

[tonfas]

Hi tnwingstsun,

Are you pak mei?

I learnt the tonfas and butterfly under my grand master cheung ping lam in 1988. i went with my father.???

tonfas@hotmail.com