Where are we going ?.....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I hope this thread will be fun and a little frivolous.. I hope we can reserve judgment on the responses and accept them as food for thought.. so, here goes..

Where do you guys and gals intend to go with your arts.. do you have goals, or is the process its own goal..

Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa)..

Do you believe that there is a spiritual aspect to Tai Chi, or just physics and training..

Now, please have a little fun with this.. but, seriousness is welcome, too..

I'll start.. i guess that the goal is the process, that to have a destination is to set limits and i sense that limits are mental contrivances due to lack of imagination.. now, i do aspire to acheive milestones, but.. i sense that there are no "destinations", only new points of departure.. (my students and friends insist that i departed a long time ago.. )..

i maintain my external forms and spar as the opportunity presents itself (1-2 times a week), but my focus is internal.. Tai Chi (Yang and Chen with assorted weaponry), QiGong and surfing (don't ask, it will just confuse you as much as it does me, but.. all the principles are there).. The benefit is a sense of completeness, each complimenting the other..

Absolutely, if i didn't sense the spiritual connection this path would not appeal to me.. like Yin/Yang there is physical/spiritual.. when the two harmonize we are capable of "magic" or sorcery.. (i define magic as something that delights, sorcery as something that does not)..

Any way, that's it in a nutshell.. Oh, and i guess Herbology sneaks in there through some of the QiGong training.. (be nice, i remember some of the '60s and those "herbs" are sacrements, not entertainment..)..

[Chris McKinley]

Right now, I'm going to Golden Corral to get medieval on their all-you-can-eat steak buffet. I'll be back later to give my real response.

[TaiChiBob]

:D That's the spirit, Chris.. Thanks..

[Justa Man]

when i take a look at why i'm doing what i'm doing....for what goal, i don't seem to have one. i'm doing my art because something about it clicks in me. sure i want to be a shifu, and i'd like to have my own school one day to continue my shifu's goal of giving as many people as possible the gift his shifu gives him, but there is no end goal like you say, just marker along the way.
i think the only real goal to have in life is to find that thing that makes the click in you. just to have found it is so wonderful an acheivement that all else feels like beautiful scenery along the ride.
the only dicipline i train in is ba gua. i've played with tai chi and enjoyed it, but realize they both reach the same end, so rather stick with less material to learn it better. but too, ba gua has something about it that tai chi doesn't have and i love that something and i feel it missing when i do tai chi, so i stick with just ba gua.
i believe their is a spiritual aspect to finding that thing that clicks in you. it may not be tai chi for many people who train in it, or maybe even teach it. it can be painting, writing, long walks, smoking cigarettes...it's that thing that brings the spirit alive, that gives that sense of "yes, this is it!". i think for those that find it in tai chi, then it is tai chi that is spiritual for them. i think tai chi is a great channel for spirituality, but it depends if one is open to the channel. same as anything.

hey bob i enjoy your energy. real kind. just wanna let you know. :) nice posting with you.

[jon]

Good idea for a discussion.

"Where do you guys and gals intend to go with your arts.. do you have goals, or is the process its own goal.. "
* My real goal is to be able to teach kung fu for a living or at least make a living within a related area. I train full time in a course which is designed to eventualy make me into a teacher. I also would like to pass the art on to my children and one thing i would LOVE is to think that in another couple of hundred years it may still be practiced and improved by my own desendents.
My other goal is to be respected for my arts which may sound egotistical but i feel like i owe it to my instructors to be of a good reputation and in turn bring more respect to them.
I personaly see combat skill as vital to good martial arts as otherwise to me its just energy work or dance and for that i would simply study yoga or breakdance. Combat skill is not the only thing but to me it go's hand in hand with technique. If you have no technique but can still hurt your not 'using' Tai Chi, if you have no combat skill but good technique then you cant 'use' Tai Chi to me you can only perform it.

"Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa).."
* Yes i train mainly Bagua and also now starting Tai Chi and have been doing Hung for years. I find Tai Chi the most exacting and it seems to give me better mechanics to take to my other arts.
Still my Hung has given me great grounding ability and leg strength which has been suprisingly usefull in Tai Chi.
They all seem to work really well with each other in a weird way which is something i was not really expecting.
I think Bagua will be my main art though as its what i tend to lean towards when sparring naturaly.

"Do you believe that there is a spiritual aspect to Tai Chi, or just physics and training.. "
* Yes i think Taoism is actualy very important to the practice of Tai Chi if your looking at it from either a combat or qigung perspective. If health is your only goal then its not so important but to properly understand the fighting mind of the system and the way it transports power around the body it REALLY helps to understand a little about Taoism and even a little about Chinese culture and way of thinking. One of my sihings for Bagua once said an odd thing to me a few weeks before he was never heard from again, weird south american guy... "Bagua is like black magic if you understand it you can get amazing benifits, if not it can lead to trouble and even bad health".
At first his comment seemed strange to me but now im starting to understand it.


Theres my long winded and overly stated view for ya all :)

[prana]

Originally posted by jon

* Yes i think Taoism is actualy very important to the practice of Tai Chi if your looking at it from either a combat or qigung perspective. If health is your only goal then its not so important

Hey there Jon, Just wanted to make a quick comment here. Training of Tai-Chi directly affects your health due to the very nature of removing blockages and mental torpor, in the meridian body. You will find the connection soon, seeing how dedicated you are :) I just wanted to say this so that you don't close your mind on it.

[Scarletmantis]

I train so that I can kill people with my Taoist Chi skills. However, I can only kill people who are psychic vampires and hungry ghosts since they are endowed with "negative" ie Yin Jing and my Taoist powers of Chi manipulation are Yang. I practice Sperm Fu you see. I've been supplementing that with 'lots of Tongue Fu, whenever my girlfriend's up for it so maybe someday I can kill regular people too. Any how, I used to go for the Light Body Kung (my original goal for training) but the piano wire kept cutting me when I jumped off the roof of my Apartment, and I couldn't find a leather harness that was truly concealable, so I finally gave up on that.

[bamboo_ leaf]

For the leaf this has been a kind of evolution, I have studied different CMA along the way. I guess the TC was always there from the beginning, i just didn’t know it. :)

I only play the CMC style and push these days, as a younger man I did many of things that people write of here trying to prove or find something, at the end I found myself.

Haven for me would be to become a park tc teacher. If people find some use in what I have then cool. if not, hey it’s a nice day to be in the park. ;)

[jon]

prana
* Well said and point taken:)

To everyone else, i just re read my post and im sorry if i sound like im REALLY pro combat and unable to accept those who have a different focus. I dont mean to be so aggresive and i sometimes almost forget our true goal should always be progression of the self and the spirit not simply how well we can kick ass:(

Scarletmantis
* That was a darn funny post :D

[Daniel Madar]

Hmm.

I practice taiji/internal arts because they are the only arts that evolve with me. The more I practice the more I learn. Its not like karate, or jiujutsu, or kendo, or anything else I have done, where at a certain point, there is only faster or stronger, after the techniques have been learned. I could only do one posture of a taiji form for ever day of the next year, and still just be touching on its potential, martially or health wise or spiritually, since I disdain separating those. I could only walk the circle for a year, and come out of it with a deeper understanding of bagua.

This is why I practice internal.

It may be that this is open in external styles, and many people will say it is, but in all the years I did martial arts before working the internals, I did not see it. So regardless, taiji is the one for me, because it is never just boring repetitions, each moment is a learning moment.

[Leonidas]

I seriously just wanna learn how to fajing. What could be cooler than straight blasting someone 10 feet away, especially if your like 80, old man strength is a 10 on the coolness meter :D Too bad i dont study an "internal" art. :(

[Zantesuken]

uh for me it's to see how much of it i can get by myself. cause basically i have no formal si fu / instructor. i meet very high level masters who don't teach. i get some training from them for hours on just one subject like an excercise.

i think it's more something to challenge myself to. if i do somehow get to a high level it's something that i possess alone because i was able to....endure? haha i wanted to say it in chinese but yeah endure the training and have something to show for it.

that's the basic goal i guess. i don't train for martial aspect, no self defense or any of that. pure health and coolness reasons. because training for just the martial reasons to beat someone up or hurt someone internally is a bad mindset and that usually limits one's training. and plus i have nobody to fight so i can only rely on myself.

as for spiritual stuff if you mean taoism then yeah sure. but taoism isn't pure spiritualism. it was a set rules that was founded as a lifestyle. confucism(if i spelt that right) is the more adopted way of life in china because taoism is very hard to understand. with principles such as no action, and that superficial things such as music, eye candy are all damaging to one in the end.

it isn't necessarily important but i think can enrich your training. after all taoism is based upon nature/heaven. and tai chi is based ont he laws of nature.

but then again. no matter what you read, books of people projecting chi out of their eyes. that's all "sun fah". if you have too much sun fah then you're real training gets limited because you only THINK that you'll be able to shoot chi out of ur eyes.

blah most importantly is the practise. everyone can explain everything to a person about what feelings they should have when doing this or doing that but it's no use tot he person unless they actual practise it and experience it for themselves.

[Internal Boxer]

Tai Chi Bob
Hope your training is going well.

For me TC & Internal arts are the cultivation of internal energy that can be expressed for fighting and healing yourself maybe others. I think body mechanics are the primary goal in achieveing a powerful structure that then develops the internal properties. When perfoming the forms I focus on different areas. For example by literally putting my mind in my lower belly, I can feel a definate warmth, that does glow intensely especially when performing the explosive movements of Pi-Chuan.

I know you do not agree with my sentiments that people who do not practice mainly for martial power are doing the art a diservice. I still hold to this mainly because there are many who like the image of being a mystic TC practioner, often to be seen as "different", and to impress others. Personally I do not tell others what I do as I prefer not to stand out in the crowd or have labels attached.

There are far more effective energy and spiritual practices than the IMA. Mantak Chia's Taoist esoteric yoga (internal alchemy). I practice the energy cultivation techniques he teaches (small heavenly circulation) and found it very effective, in developing and feeling energy. While I sit here I can put my mind in my Dantien with prenatal breathing and cultivate the energy, you can do this anywhere.

I also practice sitting meditation, I go to a Zen-Buddist retreat in Rochdale. I talk with Rev. Peter who has told me that the practice of internal martial arts are to help polish the self. In Zen they attempt to remove the concept of self, as it is the beginning of conflict and dividing the world. Which is in fact contrary to Zen-buddism and the deeper levels of taoism. I had a lot of trouble accepting this as my ego will not let go as I am quite addicted to the feeling of cultivating the energy in my body, as I understand that such cultivation is just re-affirming the self. But I cling to the belief that Taoist masters used IMA to aid them in becoming connected to the Tao. But I suppose I do not have any answers, just questions.

So I cannot understand why others who practice IMA do not want to practice any fighting elements, since like I said there are more effective paths to health and spiritual practice.

Rev. Peter also said that sitting meditation even under his guidance can prove danagerous if I am not readly for it as it will undermine all concepts of self. So he wants me to serious think if I am ready to take this step. But I cannot let go of my love of IMA.

Anyone any Ideas!

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

-My goal is to help adults and seniors. I hope to make them realize how important exercise is even at their age. The older we become the more we have to stretch. If there is another path to follow I will go with it.

-At 55, the warrior has become a healer (of sorts) so I concentrate on Lao Jia & Pao Choi. I do a Lohan form, still slap the iron and train on the broadsword & staff. All this training makes me wish I was young again so I could train more. Qigong as also become an important part of my path. I still practice 8 Sections Brocade, Weiqi 18 and Dragon Gate Qigong. I am considering traveling to Boston, occasionally, and train with Dr.Yang, Jwing Ming in Qigong.

- I believe I train with discipline because if the occasion should present itself I want to be ready. Someone said, "The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle". Hope I don't have to find out if it is true or not.

- I have always believed that the MA have always had a connection with religion in some way and I believe there is something spiritual about Tai Chi.

Last but not least, I do some herbology. I really enjoy making Dit Da Jow even though my wife would like me out of the kitchen. I have always felt that making Jow was part of being an Iron Palm practitioner.

Damian

Beware the Fury of
a patient man.

[dezhen2001]

good idea for a thread TaiChiBob :)

Well, compared to most of you guys here, i have only begun my martial arts journey. It has been an evolutionary process though...

I used to get bullied in school which is why i first took up Karate. The goal for that was simple: to give me confidence to stand up to people. Afterwards, when i really started getting in to it, i was fascinated by the kata and applications. Of course i also did a lot of sparring to 'prove' myself. Once my teacher retired though, i didn't have anyone to teach me (as i live in a small countryside town), so i looked at many other systems: Boxing, Muay Thai, Shorinji Kempo and eventually Aikido. As you can see they were gradually moving more towards the Internal, as well as having more 'character' training. I studied that for around 4/5 years, and it really opened my eyes to the more Internal principles. That fascinated me.

Now though, i train in Wing Chun Kuen, Dayan (Wild Goose) Qigong and Hard Qigong all from my Sifu. When i met him (quite by accident) something just 'clicked' inside me, and i knew i had to study with him. The reasons i train now are many...

1) i train for health (of mind and body)
2) i train to develop and understand the skills my Sifu has shown me
3) i train to develop the attributes needed for self defence (correct posture, relaxation, correct use of energy, clear mind etc. not combat training per se).
4) i enjoy it
5) being with the others in my group feels like a second family and makes me feel happy
6) i want to get good at it (so as not to let me or my Sifu down).

Hopefully some day i will also learn Taijiquan and Shaolin, but until then i think i have enough to learn ;)

david

[Chris McKinley]

In a somewhat Taoist fashion, my goals are both event AND process oriented. Practice on any level is rewarding in and of itself, but there is also a particular De for my practice of it.

I'd like to be remembered for having preserved and maybe even expanded the combat viability of Baguazhang and for acting as a liaison between the enthusiastic but unfamiliar average student and the lofty but esoteric aspects of advanced martial arts skill. Basically, I want to empower the good guys.

RE: "Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa)..". I have trained in a number of things over the years. For the last several years, I've had a stable configuration of Baguazhang, Kali, Taijiquan, and Machado JJ. The JJ is obviously to shore up ground capabilities. For me, the interesting interplay is between Baguazhang and Kali. In my practice, each improves the other.

Kali brings a great practicality and versatility of real combat applications to the mix. The learning curve is among the shortest in all of the martial arts. The trapping skills are the equal of Wing Chun's, if you're into that. The weapons skill with weapons that reflect real world availability is rivalled only by Kali's sister arts of Silat from next door in Indonesia, IMO. The hand skills are lightning-fast and efficient. The practical usage of various body weapons is top shelf. The lock flows when using controlling lines are invaluable.

Baguazhang, in complement, brings superior biomechanics, power generation, and flow to the mix, besides its own deviously cruel applications. Baguazhang is a major influence in many Indonesian Kuntao systems, and as a result, some of my applications are often mistaken for Kuntao, which is known for its extreme brutality.

In the evolutionary cycle of almost any given martial art, there are three distinct phases. There is an evolutionary phase (usually occurring in times of war) when the art is being developed as a combat method. This is when the art is being maximally field-tested.

Next, there is a plateau phase (usually in peacetime) when the art most evolves and reaches the pinnacle of development in both its techniques and principles. It is during this phase that the art's most skilled and celebrated practitioners arise.

Finally, there is a degradation or devolution phase (almost always in periods of extended peacetime) when the art is transformed from a coherent collection of combat-tested fighting methods to a martial WAY. It is during this phase that the effective combat methods of the art become obscured by both the passing of time and the institutionalization of the movements as ceremonial expression of the art's philosophical principles. In terms of degradation, the first to go are usually the most combat-oriented and combat-effective methods.

While not all arts fit this exact mold for one reason or another, the model still generally works for predicting the history of most martial arts.

Baguazhang is still relatively new and obscure here in the US. Neither it nor Xing Yi Quan have yet been subject to much of the watering down as a combat art that their sister art of Taijiquan has experienced as a whole. Taijiquan, in fact, might represent the quintessential example of an art that finds itself at the very end of the evolutionary cycle, at least in this country. Yet still, even Bagua is no longer regularly field-tested and honed by its practitioners as it once was, such as in the days of the Chinese Imperial Bodyguards. This puts Bagua in, at the very least, the plateau phase, and in all likelihood, it is well into its degradation phase.

All that said, one of my goals is not to contribute to the entropy of the art. While the art as a whole may be moving inexorably toward degradation, it is still possible to have isolated eddies of development going on. That may be the most I can hope for.

As for the process side, every day reveals just slightly more insight into my personal De. It also offers a host of health benefits of great value to that facet of me which is a healer.

[prana]

Originally posted by Internal Boxer

I also practice sitting meditation, I go to a Zen-Buddist retreat in Rochdale. I talk with Rev. Peter who has told me that the practice of internal martial arts are to help polish the self. In Zen they attempt to remove the concept of self, as it is the beginning of conflict and dividing the world. Which is in fact contrary to Zen-buddism and the deeper levels of taoism. I had a lot of trouble accepting this as my ego will not let go as I am quite addicted to the feeling of cultivating the energy in my body, as I understand that such cultivation is just re-affirming the self. But I cling to the belief that Taoist masters used IMA to aid them in becoming connected to the Tao. But I suppose I do not have any answers, just questions.

Anyone any Ideas!
Greets Internal Boxer,

So long as you treat the cultivation of energy simply as energy without becoming addicted to it, then you should be fine.

Zen removes the labelling of anything, and returns it to its purer state. The practise of Zen should not hinder your practise of natal breathing. It should be okay.

Have you heard of Zen Master Sheng-Yen ? (not to be confused with the other Sheng Yen he calls himself as Buddha)...

[prana]

Originally posted by Scarletmantis
I train so that I can kill people with my Taoist Chi skills. However, I can only kill people who are psychic vampires and hungry ghosts since they are endowed with "negative" ie Yin Jing and my Taoist powers of Chi manipulation are Yang. I practice Sperm Fu you see. I've been supplementing that with 'lots of Tongue Fu, whenever my girlfriend's up for it so maybe someday I can kill regular people too. Any how, I used to go for the Light Body Kung (my original goal for training) but the piano wire kept cutting me when I jumped off the roof of my Apartment, and I couldn't find a leather harness that was truly concealable, so I finally gave up on that. Thanks Scarlet, that is a classic. Do you accept students ? :D :p
peace :)

[Scarletmantis]

Only if you're a girl Prana. By the way, if you didn't notice, I was just joking about killing people. I really train to impress the ladies, which is what Sperm and Tongue Fu are really for. At least thats what the Taoist sage who taught me said, but he was celebate, so what does he know? Anyhow, my training was REALLY awkward since I'm heterosexual and he's a virgin. You don't wanna know how we practiced applications!

[prana]

Scarlet,

heheh ummm ok I take your word for it :D Errr sorry to disappoint, I am definitely a guy ;)

edit : I think you just blinded my mental screen :D :p

ok, better not screw this great thread up....

[Nexus]

Where are we going?

Inner Nature.

[brassmonkey]

"Baguazhang is still relatively new and obscure here in the US. Neither it nor Xing Yi Quan have yet been subject to much of the watering down as a combat art that their sister art of Taijiquan has experienced as a whole. Taijiquan, in fact, might represent the quintessential example of an art that finds itself at the very end of the evolutionary cycle, at least in this country."

Erle Montaigue's Tai Ji is well respresented in the USA so I don't know where this comment about the U.S. comes from since you practice his style. Watering down maybe this means mcdojo which you site in alot of your posts, I was wondering about this maybe you or 1 of your colleague's could help here with something that seems contradictory:
Taken from Gary Romel's site:
I believe rank can create an ego driven learning environment, it is also another trade gimmick used to make money for the local Mcdojos'. In case you haven't noticed, more and more belts seem to come from nowhere lately. For this reason in my class, we do not wear rank belts/sashes. Not to mention it was not originally in Taijiquan to begin with.

However I do have a rank system in place, us westerners need a checklist, a direction to go, and some tangible sense of accomplishment to keep us motivated. For this reason I do have rank requirements outlined, but it's more of a learning tool to let the student know when, and what they should be working on. Rank is also not given out easily. You must be able to use the techniques to a realistic level. Nobody will ever be able to say any of my black sashes cannot defend themselves

From Erle's site:
WTBA Member Application Form:
Please fill out the following items and send your form back to us. Your information will be evaluated and once accepted, a certificated of WTBA Membership will be sent to you. Should you then wish to become a WTBA instructor, the necessary 'testing' will have to be done either in person or by video tape. A one off fee of $US50.00 is charged for the privilege of belonging to the WTBA as an instructor as there are obvious benefits being able to claim as such. The only other payment for becoming a WTBA member is that you have a current "

"Yet still, even Bagua is no longer regularly field-tested and honed by its practitioners as it once was, such as in the days of the Chinese Imperial Bodyguards. This puts Bagua in, at the very least, the plateau phase, and in all likelihood, it is well into its degradation phase. "

Perhaps your speaking of the OKlahoma Baguazhang scene as I hear they don't accept challenges out there nor spar they even have a guy claiming to be a TCM Doctor who learned from books, perhaps you should start making change within yourself first then maybe if your fool enough expect others to change as well but I think you much rather hear yourself talk.

[Zantesuken]

www.yichuankungfu.com
check out soem vids there

[Internal Boxer]

Cheers Prana,

Prana thanks for the info mate. I like the Scarlet Mantis Quote LOL.

I have been studying IMA for 10years, and only just started ZaZen 2 months ago, I have never heard of Zen Master Sheng-Yen who is he/she?

So being very new to the subject all I know is that the retreat at Rochdale (Lancs) is part of the Soto tradition of Buddhist contemplatives but what that means I have no idea? I hope I have got it right as it is just from memory, I have some stuff at home so I will check, they also have a web site belonging to the order?

A friend of mine who I spoke to last night has been a buddhist for many years explained what you have more or less said, is that it is ok to practice energy cultivation, but do not cling to it. But I guess I have been clinging to it. Before I met Rev. Peter I did not have any spiritual path, and cultivating the energy seemed the only thing that was beyond western science, and I wrongly classified the feelings of energy moving as a spiritual experience, when I realise now it is not at all it is a completely different path.

all the best, Matt.

[Ray Pina]

MO goal is a simple and direct one: to be the best.

I know there are lots of guys out there training hard. I don't think I can train harder, so I'm trying to train smarter. Investing in technique.

Immediately my goal is to start entering some tournaments later this summer/Fall. I've been doing some testing with old classmates. Then my aim is for bigger events, try to get into K1.

This aim is to show that "traditional martial arts" work, that traditional MA means real martial arts, wich means evolving, upgrading to meet the needs in combat. And surely to stroke my ego as well. WOuld be lying to deny that.

But this I believe is just the background work to a larger goal. If fortumate enough and considred capable by my teacher, I would like to carry on E-chuan and open a gym.

To do that, in my eyes, I would need to be capable of accepting any challenge from any man, empty hands, pole or sword.

That is what's in my mind. That is my goal. My other major goal is simply to finish the book I've been working on for a year and half. That's well on the way. About 6 more months maybe.

Best to everyone and there dreams. Hard work makes them reality.

Ray

[kboggess]

Brass Monkey wrote:

"Erle Montaigue's Tai Ji is well respresented in the USA so I don't know where this comment about the U.S. comes from since you practice his style. "

Actually, Erle Montaigue's taiji is not well represented in the US. I live in the Northeast and have counted it seems just a dozen Cheng Man Ching style teachers in my area alone.

Erle's WTBA instructorship is separate from local grading systems. He lets his instructors use what they want. The US WTBA has a ranking system put together as well by Al Krych. But again it is only tool to pick up for those who need it. It's all informal as the learning takes precedent.

Keith

[batesy]

For what it's worth, my reasons for training are as follows:
1. To improve my health. All my life I have suffered from asthma and while it has not been eliminated training in the martial arts has certainly given me a better understanding of my body, which has had health benefits.
2. To help cope with stress. I teach high school for a living and the tools the MA give me do help to keep the stress manageable.
3. For defence. I think that very few of us would be in the arts if we didn't have some desire to improve our combat effectiveness.
4. To pass on some understanding of physical/Chinese culture. I'd like to think that by teaching tai chi to urban kids I'm giving them another window on the world, hopefully helping some of them to start at least thinking about different directions/possibilities in life. To my mind, this in itself has something of a spiritual edge to it. Hopefully that didn't sound too patronising, it certainly wasn't meant to be.
Happy training.

[Chris McKinley]

brassmonkey (or should I call you ewallace),

What's the matter, baby girl...havin' a rough day? Or is it just that that pesky IQ/memory problem is kicking in again? No wait, I bet you simply forgot to take your meds. Whatever it is, besides pegging the B.S. meters of everyone with your post, you've also managed to erode your own credibility just that much further.

RE: "Erle Montaigue's Tai Ji is well respresented in the USA so I don't know where this comment about the U.S. comes from since you practice his style.". Now, I don't like to make fun of those with serious thinking disabilities, but I will point out that a) I didn't specify Erle Montaigue's Taijiquan, b) Erle Montaigue's Taijiquan is ANYTHING but well-represented in the U.S., and c) I practice Old Yang style, of which Erle Montaigue is simply a high-profile practitioner. We all know your M.O. is to keep repeating the same lies over and over again in the hopes of eventually finding someone who hasn't heard them, but now you're just getting lazy at it. Whom did you hope to fool in saying that Erle's methods are well-represented here?

RE: "...I was wondering about this maybe you or 1 of your colleague's could help here with something that seems contradictory: Taken from Gary Romel's site:". Despite your best efforts, I know this little factoid continues to elude your staggering mental prowess, but...and I'll type it slowly...I'm...not...Gary. If you have a question about Gary Romel, his views, or his website, simply ASK him. I know you can...we all believe in you.

RE: "From Erle's site: WTBA Member Application Form:". It's hard having a serious memory disorder, but you've got to keep trying anyway. Take each day one at a time. Make sure your support network is in place. Small victories...just remember, small victories. And so you can tape it to your mirror: "Chris...McKinley...is...not...a...WTBA...Instructo r". There ya go; you're all set. Now, you don't have to keep asking me about it.

RE: "Perhaps your speaking of the OKlahoma Baguazhang scene as I hear they don't accept challenges out there nor spar they even have a guy claiming to be a TCM Doctor who learned from books, perhaps you should start making change within yourself first then maybe if your fool enough expect others to change as well but I think you much rather hear yourself talk.". I assume you're going to enlighten us regarding the Baguazhang scene in other areas of the US where daily combat is common, since you seem to know so much more about the art than we do. As for your other claptrap, just do a search for the last 3 or 4 times I've caught and exposed your lying...any of 'em will do, they're all the same every time anyway. The only difference is that sometimes you apologize for it and sometimes you don't.

[gazza99]

Wow guys, congrats on almost an entire thread that was pleasant to read!! Until brassmonkey chimed in anyways....
Brassmonkey: I fail to see the "contradiction" you are reffering to? What about my statement do you not understand? I believe Keith and Chris have addressed your comments appropriately.

I hardly think you are qualified to question/comment to Chris on his bagua or his TCM knowledge. But since you insist on bringing it up all the time why dont you present us with your credentials? Or how about even a real name/location, school...etc....Chris has been more than generous with his background information and knowledge on this board, why dont you extend the same courtesy to him?
Gary

[kboggess]

This is an excellent thread that TaichiBob started. I'd hate to see it undermined. Here are my responses:


"Where do you guys and gals intend to go with your arts.. do you have goals, or is the process its own goal.. "

I have two goals: First, I would like to pierce the essence of the arts I am studying. Tai Chi and other classical arts (no matter what culture) are set apart from most sport and combat methods in that it provides other peaks besides victory over others for its practitioners to climb. Tai Chi, like most of the popularly classified internal arts, is a fusion of martial tactics with practices and ideas of the Taoist "Hygeine" school (but since it is a joining of combat and philosophy/mysticism, the martial cannot be ignored, or the practitioner will never understand the essence) . Because of that, the art has untold depth from various angles of approach. Second, I would like to teach the arts as a way to enhance a person's life--a physical education approach so to speak.

"Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa).. "

I have trained in Shotokan karate, Okinawan Kempo, Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu. I am currently studying Yang style Taiji Quan, Hebei Style Xing Yi Quan, and some Ba Gua--emphasis is on the Taiji and the Xing Yi. The other arts benefit my taiji by providing strength and CRE as well as giving insight into the interpretation of internal power that each of the other styles offer. At the same time, however, my taiji progress has been slowed by studying other systems. But that is a price I'm willing to pay to satisfy my curiosity--I have a lifetime to learn.

"Do you believe that there is a spiritual aspect to Tai Chi, or just physics and training.. "

In my opinion, there are spiritual aspects to taiji. But they are locked in the time and space of culture, especially within the Taoist hygeine practices that strive for longeivity. But I also believe that taiji has enough to offer everyone no matter what culture or religous/philosophical stance. It has to be taught to Westerners with an anthropological approach. The spiritual aspects should be put aside until true mastery of the movements have been obtained (I try to keep talk about qi to a minimum). Only then can the person approach the gate of mysticism with any chance of understanding.

Just my take.

keith

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.. even the conflicting perspectives.. many of the responses have given me food for thought.. (there are those that would cite lack of natural resources on my part, but..).. Food for thought is nourishment for the mind, no less than meals are nourishment for the flesh..

I see that differing perspectives can peacefully coexist (usually).. i think that with a little effort we can find some value in anyone's contributions to this forum.. BUT, mostly.. you guys and gals represent hope.. it's clear to me that with such dedication and intent the Arts are destined to flourish in this country.. perhaps not the Original Art, but.. that's not all bad, it's evolution.. i caught some flack once before for this, but.. it's not unreasonable to expect that someday there may be an American (better yet, a World) version of the arts.. In any case, i don't see it degrading, deterioriating or, losing its original flavor.. i see us adding spices to the mix, enhancing the flavor.. That the internal Arts appeal to so many varied perspectives is evidence of the natural resilience inherent to the Art itself and to the Honored Ancestors that assembled this masterpiece...

Thanks again.. be well, all.. train for living, and you will..

[brassmonkey]

Chris first I was stacy now ewalllace make up your mind. Sometimes I forget to be kind to the blind. Besides I don't want you guys to get any better you entertain me too much on here. Don't worry Gary I know next to nothing for all I know you guys could be as good as you think you are.

[red_fists]

Late comer here.

Q.: Why do I study internal MA?
A.: Simply because it appeals to me.

Yes, I have done more external styles before, but I think they helped me realise what TCC really is.

Q.: Where do I want to take it.
A.: Preferably I would like to become an Instructor in my current style.
But I do not want to open my own Kwoon, but rather want to volunteer my skills to help other People and especially younger teens who have problems with society.

I think that Tai Chi can give a lot to those Kids.

Yep, I know I am dreaming.

[dwid]

Q.>Where do you guys and gals intend to go with your arts.. do you have goals, or is the process its own goal..

I'll agree with a lot of people who have already replied. It's a little of both. I think practicing Bagua, heck any martial art, has to be process-oriented to be productive. If you focus too much on what you hope to attain, it will take you much longer to get anywhere. However, I have warm thoughts about retiring someday to teach, maybe 30 or 40 years from now. I currently have no interest in being a career martial artist. I respect some people who are, but my best instructors have been those who reluctantly started teaching, who were more concerned with perfecting their own technique before passing it on to others.

Q.>Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai
Chi (or vice versa)..

I know a little five elements from Hsing-I, and would like to pursue that more eventually. I've taken a little Shuai Chiao, and would like to learn some more of that. I think both could assist my Bagua. Conversely, every martial arts technique I execute is influenced by my bagua. Hell, the way I walk down the street is influenced by my bagua. Any art that brings your mind to your body is likely to have this effect, I think.

Q.>Do you believe that there is a spiritual aspect to Tai Chi, or just physics and training..

The spiritual aspect of training is what you make of it, I think. Whatever we think of Qi and what-not today is influenced heavily by the world we live in, which is not at all the same as the one in which these concepts originated. Spirituality is a deeply personal thing, and to my mind, physics is no less impressive than qi. To someone else, thinking of qi may help them understand principles better. I don't think it holds back your progress either way, unless you find yourself unable to resolve a conflict of logic and perception of what you're doing. In cases like this, if you can't let experience outweigh higher order thought processes, then maybe you've got some issues to resolve, and I guess this is part of the path.

Anyway, just my random rant. Great thread!

[Hau Tien]

I came in late to this thread as well, but found it interesting nonetheless.

Why did I start practicing the internal? (Liu He Ba Fa)
My 7 * PM Sifu also runs LHBF classes (Although we advertise it as "Tai Chi"... no one in this small city would have a clue what LHBF was). I had been studying 7* for about a year and a half, and wanted something that would improve my energy as well as my fluidity, so I gave the LHBF class a shot.

To say I loved it would be an understatement. Not only has it improved my fluidity, but my understanding of qi is so much more than it ever would have been. The more I learn, the more I like.

I still practice 7* as well. Training 5 or 6 days a week.

Oh! Just thought of something... I'll post it in a new thread, though, as it doesn't apply to this, really:)

Hau Tien

[DrunkenStudent]

Why do I practice tai chi? It gives me something to do besides drink, and have found that after practicing for some time, I am not quite the angry person I was. I originally looked towards Tai Chi as providing the ultimate martial art that would endow me with incredible abilities in regard to martial combat. While that really hasn't happened for me, I have found it to help with limbering up. Being extremely tense, nothing like Tai Chi gets the kinks out of one's joints.

I can't say I currently have any goals at the moment, except maybe learning something about Chi Na.