Branches of Dragon style

[EAZ]

Main question:
I would like to know from any Dragon style practioners if there are big differences between branches of the style.


Subsidiary question:
Specifically, I would like to know if those practicing the same style as Nerval for instance on the forum are considered mainstream Dragon branch. This branch of Dragon resembles in execution a lot some of the HK Pak Mei schools I have visited in the past.

Thanks

EAZ

[NARVAL]

Hi EAZ
I am not aware of the existence of completely separate branches within the system. However, some people on this forum are better qualified than myself to answer your question.
Is there any dragon in Vietnam? How does it look like?
Regards

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Sifu Andy Troung teaches Dragon Boxing & Bak Mei here in Sydney & i'm pretty sure they are from Vietnam lineage. I have'nt seen his gung fu thou but i've heard others mention him here, i think Fierce Tiger knows him & has seen his gung fu maybe he can help.

There is another Dragon style at Cabramatta:rolleyes: do any of u Sydney guys know anything about this place?

Also does anyone know if there is or was a Northern Dragon style & is/it anything similiar to the Southern Dragon.

[fiercest tiger]

Hey Buddy,

Sifu Troung teaches lung ying and bak mei as well as jow gar. He has learn dragon from Master Chan here in cabramatta as well as i think some other places. I know his bak mei is from vietnam and many sources too.

any questions eaz il ask him as he is my dai go big brother hahaha.:)

later
FT

[Shaolin Master]

Robert Chan - HK Dragon Style. (Andy Truong's teacher.)

[grogan]

I was interested in doing Dragon for a while but it never came to fruition but I found Sifu Andy Troung's website where if you want to e-mail him any questions about the style I geuss he will answer you http://www.atu.com.au/~wahnam/ . I also heard that Pak Mei has a bit of dragon in it in the turns or attacks to angles or something like that but I am sure that Sifu Andy Troung or Sifu Gary H (Fiercest Tiger himself) can explain a little bit more. I saw one of Sifu Andy Troung's student do a dragon form once and it looked like a very smooth, violent form. I have heard of both above mentioned Sifu's in my stickybeaking and both have a pretty good rep so you should get some quality advice from them.

Hope ou find your answers you are after.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for the kind words..:) Andy Sifu is very good and is opening up a fulltime school soon, ill keep everyone posted as he teaches many styles of kung fu.

As for the side stepping in Pak Mei it does have a dragon element although i have never seen Lee gar to say if it was also added!

Pak Mei can seem very linear at times, but look deeper within and see the angles its all there in the structure.:) Is back to basics!

anyway i bet Eaz is gonna have a brain storm on this one! :D

thanks again
Garry aka FT

[EAZ]

Ahh... these people saying nice things about you...and yet you are a traitor ;-)

(Brain storm below)
After having lunch with a certain Nerval today, a Dragon practitioner, and a conversation with Mr. "pretty good rep" last week, it has come to my understanding that Dragon style at high level may incorporate very soft movements (although rapid) and that in this respect it bears a certain ressemblance to certain Pak Mei principles found in certain schools and considered advanced. (How's that for political correctness).

Apparently not all Dragon schools go along with this soft theory though.

To the best of my understanding.

[Yum Cha]

Hello Gentlemen,

To the knowledgable amongst us it is nothing new to note that the grand-masters of Pak Mei and Dragon were very close and exchanged many techniques, spending menay years training and travelling together. Much of the Pak Mei Grandmaster Cheung Lai Cheun's pre-Pak Mei training contained Dragon style, and it carried into his Pak Mei as well.

However, some Pak Mei has more Dragon "spice", some has less. It is my understanding, however basic, that one can see this in the waist of a Pak Mei practitioner. The crunching of the belly is given a bit of a sideways twist, especially when pulling in. This requires the training to separate the hip rotation from the waist rotation.

Additionally, the repitition of 3 techniques in a row is a dragon legacy too, or so I'm told. I wasn't there, if you catch my drift.

Some of the Pak Mei lineages renditions of Gau Bo Twi exhibit this repition of 3 more than others, for example.

The Pak Mei pattern Ying Jao Lin Que is a dragon pattern, or at least very heavily inspired by Dragon Style, and it is the most advanced of the "lesser" forms.

I hope this is of some use.

[BIU JI]

Hi yam cha,

I've found Ying jow lin Q does have more of the Dragon flavor to it then other forms as you say. It certainly starts in a very similar way to Dragon forms and seems to focus on the angles a little more than pakmei forms do, though this is not a big difference so it can be argued. it's linear in it's direction but attacks the angles alot.
Where as most of the 'pakmei" forms tend to be more linear in their attack, this is being general of course.
Of course though Sam Mun bagua, Sam Man Kuen for example attack the angles alot( being the focus of these forms) are they considered Pakmei forms or again more influenced from Dragon?
I see the angle stepping like this- Pakmei when stepping to 45 is alittle more sharper but Dragon stepping is more rounded , gliding into the angle, I may be splitting hairs and in the end not much difference can be made but hey ,,,, it all works ;)

[fiercest tiger]

When and why would we use the angles, this is the key behind the kuens?

Used in yin and yang theories also!:)

FT

[meltdawn]

EAZ:
"I would like to know from any Dragon style practioners if there are big differences between branches of the style. "

Differences, yes. Big, not on the surface. The world sees one branch, not the tree. All teachers take what they have and teach accordingly, same as in any kung fu. The internet has opened communication between the current generation of dragon practitioners, and we find how much we have in common, and appreciate the different nuances. One day we may all sit at the same table. I hope I don't get the bill. :)

"I would like to know if those practicing the same style as Nerval for instance on the forum are considered mainstream Dragon branch."

After the reactions I got this past weekend, I don't think any dragon is mainstream! :)

"... it has come to my understanding that Dragon style at high level may incorporate very soft movements (although rapid) and that in this respect it bears a certain ressemblance to certain Pak Mei principles found in certain schools and considered advanced."

Lung ying, at it's highest level, is considered internal. My own struggle to progress involves elimination of tension (drop shoulders, drop elbows). I know nothing about Pak Mei. What I have seen of it seems to share techniques, but not power generation.


Yum Cha:
"The crunching of the belly is given a bit of a sideways twist, especially when pulling in. This requires the training to separate the hip rotation from the waist rotation."

While the manifestation of hip and waist independance may differ according to style, it is my opinion that this is a fundamental and much-overlooked area of any good kung fu.

"Additionally, the repitition of 3 techniques in a row is a dragon legacy too, or so I'm told."

Two is a nice number also. :)


Yum Cha:
"The Pak Mei pattern Ying Jao Lin Que is a dragon pattern, or at least very heavily inspired by Dragon Style, and it is the most advanced of the "lesser" forms."

and BIU JI:
"I've found Ying jow lin Q does have more of the Dragon flavor to it then other forms as you say. It certainly starts in a very similar way to Dragon forms and seems to focus on the angles a little more than pakmei forms do, though this is not a big difference so it can be argued. it's linear in it's direction but attacks the angles alot."

The Ying Jow I have, from my Lung Ying, must be very different from Pak Mei's or Yau Kung Mun's. My very, very superficial understanding of my Ying Jow makes it one of the hardest forms I have because it does deviate from the percieved "dragon flow" while exemplifying what dragon should be.


fiercest tiger:
"When and why would we use the angles...?"
Why, for holding up shelves! ;)


Of course, that's all just my opinion... I could be perfectly wrong.

[fiercest tiger]

The ying jow of your system isnt the ying jow we are talking about, the ying jow lin kuil was made from lung ying mor kuil form.

i like the number 4 as it also represents death!:eek: thats why the 4 finger strikes and four follow ups, 3 is good but not as good!!!:D

luv u all
FT:)

[Yum Cha]

Hi Melty,
Thanks for weighing in.

FT, I have heard Ying Jau called Lung Ying Mor Que before by Sifu. I was going to say that but didn't want to confuse things. Does that mean anything to you Melty?

I should say up front though that I know almost nothing about Dragon style, other than the fact that Sifu Chan in Sydney is very highly respected.

FT, Linda's Lung Ying site is gone these days, have you heard anything from her lately?

I like the number 5280, not sure why though...<grin>

[fiercest tiger]

dont know where she is ,never met her either ..lol I also was ordained with master robert chan at the taoist temple together. hahaha maybe they are preparing themselves for something?

i think you got your numbers crossed yummy...its 187, 911, 000 hahaha death again and its in 3's....oops meltys right!! for once or maybe not.

i still say she should fight instead of do forms? try and kill your opponent in the ring for real!!:eek:

bye melty

FT:p

[Shaolin Master]

Nim Kiu as we call it (ur YJLK) was from Lum A Haap according to the BM tradn.

[fiercest tiger]

wasnt he dragon style or lee gar?

FT

[Shaolin Master]

Lum a Haap -> Dragon Style.


Sam Mun Kuen was from Lei Ga

[BIU JI]

Your Ying jow is your 2nd level form or close to there is it? I studied some dragon before and the 2nd level form was Ying jow which yes is very different to Ying jow lin Q, my mistake earlier :(

[Ao Qin]

Howdy,

Quite frankly, I don't understand what, if any, similarities there are between Lung Ying Ying Jow, and the Bak Mei Ying Jow form. I also don't see any similiarity between the Bak Mei Ying Jow and LYMK.

The Dragon Style Ying Jow is a very demanding, long, and complex set compared to the other LY forms. Great for demonstrations and tournaments - a very comprehensive compendium of basic (and some advanced) Lung Ying concepts. People see the Ying Jow and think this is the most advanced LY form, although the higher forms, although simple in appearance, are far more subtle and difficult to understand / execute.

There are obvious similarities between LYMK and SBMK. I believe CLC took LYMK and modified it with some higher (such as the "absorbing" hand spoken of in a previous thread) LY concepts (and perhaps with other styles, though I would wonder what exactly), and created SBMK to his own preferences.

Both are beautiful and powerful arts - in the hands of the dedicated practitioner!

[meltdawn]

Ao Qin:
"The Dragon Style Ying Jow is a very demanding, long, and complex set compared to the other LY forms. Great for demonstrations and tournaments - a very comprehensive compendium of basic (and some advanced) Lung Ying concepts."

Excellent comments! :)

I have been spending a great deal of energy and thought on eagle recently. The sequencing and transitions are indeed where the complexity lies. The challenge for me has definitely been the flow. Now I've finally started to "taste" the form, and those transitions are becoming really cool applications. It's finally becoming fun to play, instead of a head-spinner.

"People see the Ying Jow and think this is the most advanced LY form, although the higher forms, although simple in appearance, are far more subtle and difficult to understand / execute."

The hardest thing in the world is to make something look like it' not the hardest thing in the world.


Yum Cha:
"FT, I have heard Ying Jau called Lung Ying Mor Que before by Sifu. I was going to say that but didn't want to confuse things. Does that mean anything to you Melty? "

I have seen so little Pak Mei that I'm sorry to say it doesn't. The PM Ying Jow I've seen had similar sequences to the Lung Ying Mor Kiu, but the overall look of it made it very contrary.

[fiercest tiger]

ok! The start of the salute follows the dragon form, the i believe the form was made up with some dragon principles etc, no one said it was your eagle claw form!:rolleyes:

relax dragon breaths....lol

[meltdawn]

Garry, keep up man! :D I get it already, mate!

Kevin suggested:
"There are obvious similarities between LYMK and SBMK."

and Yum Cha sggested:
"FT, I have heard Ying Jau called Lung Ying Mor Que before by Sifu."

... I can only speak of my own Ying Jow, so I did.

[fiercest tiger]

ok MATE!;)

[Je Lei Sifu]

There is a Leung Sifu who a few years back moved to Philadelphia from Toi San, China. He does not speak english however, he tries to speak with me through the use of gestures. One of my sidai who speak Fukienese as does Leung Sifu had translated to me that Leung Sifu has learned three different family styles of Lung Ying in China. I myself not knowing much about gung fu if it is not Hung Ga, thought that there was only one style of Lung Ying but several different branches. My question is if there is anyone else who knows of these three family styles of Lung Ying.

I have seen Lung Ying performed in the past as well as demonstrated by Leung Sifu. I can guarantee you that his gung fu is top notch as well as his application of technique. He as few students, but the two that I have seen had only trained with him for aprox 4-6 months. Although they have trained for a short period of time, they demonstrated great speed and power, which is a credit to Leung Sifu teaching skills as well.

As I have stated previously, if it is not Hung Ga, then I know next to nothing about it. So if someone can please enlighten me on this, I would surely appreciate it.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Je Lei Sifu
There is a Leung Sifu who a few years back moved to Philadelphia from Toi San, China. One of my sidai who speak Fukienese as does Leung Sifu had translated to me that Leung Sifu has learned three different family styles of Lung Ying in China. I myself not knowing much about gung fu if it is not Hung Ga, thought that there was only one style of Lung Ying but several different branches. My question is if there is anyone else who knows of these three family styles of Lung Ying.


A ha ! More branches of Dragon, the mystery thickens and will hopefully ultimately lead to the elucidation of the question as to WHICH branch of Dragon is linked to WHICH branch of Pak Mei.

[feldor]

I too have heard Ying Jow referred to as Lung Ying Mor Kuw in Bak Mei. (Also in the Bak Fu Pai I used to study). To me, the differences lie within the footwork and "spirit". But then I am just a poor beginner. :D

FT
Did you try to call last night? My stupid MSN is still not working right.....:( I should be home later tonight if you still want to talk. sorry for the problems.....bad feldor....:o


Melty
You don't love me anymore? You never write........:(

[fiercest tiger]

Ive been busy and abit stressed but back on track, i didnt get time to call you. Ill try this weekend if im home!

eaz,

good question also what dragon style is the real deal? Did lum yul gwai have training brothers with the monk or was there another dragon?

:D

melty dont get angry just a question...night nite!

[Buby]

Melty my heart away :D - If don't mind me asking, is dragon considered an internal system. Such as bagua, tai chi, etc... Does it include chi gung?

Thanks in advance,
Buby

[meltdawn]

Je Lei Sifu:
"My question is if there is anyone else who knows of these three family styles of Lung Ying. "

If you could find out this master's masters, it would solve this. My opinion would be that maybe he learned from three different individuals who were students/sons of Lam Yiu Kwai and possibly from Lam Lop Gei. If so, he would know that name. We consider Lung Ying to be one family. Branches are all part of the same tree.


EAZ:
"WHICH branch of Dragon is linked to WHICH branch of Pak Mei."

Students of Cheung Lai Chen who learned both arts, or students of both Cheung and Lam Yiu Kwai are those who have decendants that may or may not exhibit more or less crossover of either art.


fiercest tiger:
"Did lum yul gwai have training brothers with the monk or was there another dragon?"

It is known in China and Hong Kong that Monk Dai Yuk had students before Lam Yiu Kwai. Grandmaster Lam was an excellent fighter and brought the art to the public eye. Otherwise, it would still be a relatively rare art.


Buby
"is dragon considered an internal system. Such as bagua, tai chi, etc... Does it include chi gung?"

It is considered internal. Yes it has chi gung.


These are my opinions and translations of the very limited knowledge and experience I have so far gained of my system, from the lineages of Dai Yuk and Lam Yiu Kwai's younger son, Lam Chon Gong. There are others on this board with much more ability to anwer with accuracy, namely Ao Qin and mantis108, since they have studied far longer than myself. They have both studied under the lineages of Lam Yiu Kwai's students and older son, Lam Wun Gong. It would be a pleasure to discuss more on this topic so long as it does not degenerate.

[Buby]

Thank you!:)

If you don't mind... When LYG was studying under the monk was the system know as LY or did LYG name it?

Could there be a chance that other decendents of the monk are teaching LY, but under a different name?


Thanks in advance

Buby

[EAZ]

Originally posted by meltdawn
Je Lei Sifu:
EAZ:
"WHICH branch of Dragon is linked to WHICH branch of Pak Mei."

Students of Cheung Lai Chen who learned both arts, or students of both Cheung and Lam Yiu Kwai are those who have decendants that may or may not exhibit more or less crossover of either art.

fiercest tiger:
"Did lum yul gwai have training brothers with the monk or was there another dragon?"

It is known in China and Hong Kong that Monk Dai Yuk had students before Lam Yiu Kwai. Grandmaster Lam was an excellent fighter and brought the art to the public eye. Otherwise, it would still be a relatively rare art.


Hello Meltdown.

Based on your comment from FT which I have heard from other sources as well, it is possible that there are other Dragon branches totally unrelated to Lam Yiu Kwai, as they may have learnt from Dai Yuk (or someone else) before Lam Yiu Kwai and gone their own way.

I say this because in Pak Mei lineages, there is a thicket of practioners around CLC and LYK, who practice PM with great similarities with PM.

Then there appear to be another bunch of PM people (less numerous and certainly less visible) who speak of a Dragon influence in PM, but the principles and manner of this influence lead to a different theoretical and practical version of PM.

The thicket people name things like Lung Yin Mo kiu and TTFC as common link between the two, proving the proximity of CLC and LYK. Of this influence there is no doubt in certain branches of PM.

However the "bunch of PM people" refer to Dragon influence notably in advanced internal principles (not really discussible onthe net sorry for the tease), the link to the principle behind the 9 step push form, and the concentration on Shen in certain PM practices, as refering to a previous influence called "Dragon".

Was this bunch influenced by another branch from Dai Yuk, did LYK intigrate in his own manner this knowledge to create his "modern" version of Dragon, etc... I don't know.

Just thinking about wht you said regarding LYK being an excellent fighter and bringing the style into the public eye, this strikes me similarly to CLC's story. Should we be talking of other branches of CLC?

I think I remember in a misty way, that someone on this forum once said they belonged to another branch of PM not directely a descendent of CLC....

EAZ

[BIU JI]

Good questions about other lineages less known ! How many people learnt from both CLC and LYG at the same time!? And possible mixed the two again coming up with quite different froms based on the same principles of both styles.

Who know heh !:cool:

[meltdawn]

EAZ:
"Based on your comment from FT which I have heard from other sources as well, it is possible that there are other Dragon branches totally unrelated to Lam Yiu Kwai, as they may have learnt from Dai Yuk (or someone else) before Lam Yiu Kwai and gone their own way. "

It is not "possible", it is so. I repeat: It is known in China and Hong Kong that Monk Dai Yuk had students before Lam Yiu Kwai.


Buby:
"If you don't mind... When LYG was studying under the monk was the system know as LY or did LYG name it?"

Lam Yiu Kwai did not rename it.


sui-fuw:
I am not sure what you just said. Our "single tree" comes from Sui Lum.

Can you explain why you think my kung fu comes from the branches? Doesn't a tree need foliage to survive? Are you insinuating that I come from Lam Yiu Kwai's kung fu? Are you trying to get me to say otherwise? I am fortunate to answer yes to both questions, as I've already stated my lineage. I'm sorry, there are some further answers to these questions that you will never be told. It's none of your business.

Can you please tell the public why you think you know so much about my master's kung fu? Why do you care? Your information is always incorrect, I would be happy to set you straight. Are you just searching for answers? I am a nice person, ask me directly what you want to know.

Where do you live? Who is your master? Answer my questions and I'll answer yours. For clearly you are still seeking kung fu.

[Je Lei Sifu]

If only I could speak fukienese, I would be able to ask Leung Sifu who he had learned from. The other problem is that my sidai no longer attend the school.

Wish I could find out more for you:(

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[LaterthanNever]

Wow--so..ok, I'm confident some will say "Why are you commenting on a thread which is already almost 20 yrs old"?

The answer is..I just saw it now! Happy? LOL

Re: more than one LY familyetc,

Someone told me( a LY stylist) that LY has: a Hong Kong version, a version from Fukien and an older..temple version. Can anyone comment?

Best,
LTN

[Tea Serpent]

The Lung Ying system being discussed is from Lam Yiu Gwai. Lam came from a family of martial artists from Huizhou in south central Guangdong. His family's arts were supposedly learned from teachers at Luofu mountain who were from Shanwei prefecture.
Lam Yiugwai's Lung Ying style seems to be a further development of Lam Ga boxing (his family's style).
It has no relation to any martial arts taught in Fujian or in any temple (well supposedly some of the guys the lam family learned from were "Buddhist monks" (this can mean a lot of things especially in context of Guangdong) so they could have stayed at some temple or had some relation with some temple but nothing survives from them except through the Lam family line.
There are "dragon" styles everywhere you look in China and generally they have no relation at all with each other.
There are lots of "dragon" styles in Fujian but two of them are particularly famous. The most famous and widespread one is from northeastern Fujian and is based on local folk boxing / eastern Fujian Luohan boxing methods. This system split into a few major branches and is really widely spread in Fujian going as far south as Quanzhou. You see it's forms and methods in lots of village arts and family styles in the northern half of Fujian.
The other is practiced in southern Fujian mainly in Zhangzhou, Xiamen and Longyan. It is based mainly on Hakka methods from Jiangxi and local Hakka plum flower boxing methods from Longyan.
Neither of them practice any of the same forms or are in any way related to the Lung Ying system of Lam Yiu Gwai.
So no, there is no such thing as Fujian or "temple" Lung Ying.

[David Jamieson]

Lung Ying is just the one set isn't it? Lung Ying Mor Kiu.

Interestingly, I have also heard more than once that Lien Bo Chuan, the preliminary set taught in north shaolin is a remnant of Shaolin Dragon boxing.

Anyway... 20 year old threads with recent responses are cool. :D