Sifu on a pedestal

[KC Elbows]

Have any of you ever gone to a school where the teacher is put up on a pedestal? One class I formerly attended was run by a very nice guy, good martial artist, but most of the seniors were always saying "Isn't he just amazing? So smooth." Etc. It doesn't even seem to matter if the teacher is doing anything amazing, he could be showing horse stance, yet someone would still be amazed who should have long ago made the stance/technique/form their own.

The problem I see with this is:

-It dehumanizes the teacher, and tends to end in dissapointment, as we are all human.

-It limits the potential of the students, as they see what the teacher does as "beyond the mortal ken", and thus miss the point that the teacher expects them to learn it.

Any thoughts?

[Grays Anatomy]

Though I understand your point I have never felt my Sifu was "beyond mortal ken". I always look at him move and say -

"Man - someday - I will be there...if I work my a$$ off!!!"

I look at it as a goal to be acheived - and then surpassed.

[Ray Pina]

I'm guilty of viewing my master this way -- though I am aware of his human being status.

My master is my hero, for he has achieved what I haven't seen elsewhere: true martial mastery.

I would consider myself having a good "martial eye", and I am not impressed very often by anything martial. I can't think of the last thing I saw that made me say "wow."

My master makes me say that inside each and every class, even if I am standing to the side with my mouth closed, hands clasped behind my back.

I say it depends on the person viewing and the person being viewed. At the same time, there are people in my class who do not know how fortunate they are to be there, for that is all they have known. They haven't seen the quakery out there, ie, the guy with a baby-smooth arm toting one should block a knife by impeding it between his two forearm bones. Where's the scars from pulling off such a feat?

I hate those kind of teachers.

[shaolinboxer]

I appeciate my sensei becuase of his skill, but also because he has created an enviorment in which my I can thrive.

It doesn't matter how good your master is if s/he cannot help you. What matters is how s/he can help you realize your potential.

[KC Elbows]

Appreciating one's teacher is a good trait, but I think when one is worshipping one's teacher, one cannot truly be appreciating them. Worshipping is detrimental, IMO, because it inhibits the growth of the worshipper, and does not allow the worshipped to have flaws.

As far as admiring and being amazed by a very high level of skill, that is another matter, but that is not really worship. Its when you assume, because so and so has what you perceive as a high level of this skill, so then that same person must be a better person or be above others, then I question that.

Mainly, worship is probably common at the early stages, but at some point must end, or the student will not be in a frame of mind to learn the lessons of the teacher. It is more respectful to the teacher to learn what the teacher has to teach than to worship what the teacher is, as the teacher will judge him or herself by his or her students, and if those students have learned, then the teacher can say "I am a good teacher", but if the students are merely looking for a father figure/god head, then the teacher will say "I am good at kung fu, but I am a poor teacher, for of my students, not one has equaled me, though they all admire me."

Its the same as a father. To be a father is to make a child a better adult, not to make a child look up to him. If he does the former, then he will likely achieve the latter, but he can make the child look up to him and yet fail to be a father in every way.

[Ray Pina]

I was just about to say, I don't consider my teacher someone to be worshipped, but a man to be looked up to and greatly respectded like a father someone is proud of. Like a little leaguer who's father is Babe Ruth.

As for my master's skills, it doesn't necessasirly make him a better person than anyone esle -- but he is certainly the best martial artist I have even seen. This judegement is not based on a begginers mind, but on one who has always studied, minus a few years of HS/College insanity.

Now, of coarse I feel this way, because that's where I train. My Hung Gar comes from Frank Yee via my old teacher, my mantis from Gin Foon Mark via Milton Chin's disciple, so I have good players available to me in the NYC area. I'm where I am because I simply wouldn't be anywhere else.

I know everyone claims their teacher to be the best. I don't argue that. I wish everyone well.

But back to the topic of betterment. One does not obtain that level, even our level speaking frankly, by being your every day Joe. It takes something special to go on week after week, month after month, year after year. In fact, scarey to say, I'm about to add decade after decade and I'm only 27, will be 28 in May.

I think all martial artists are special and good examples of human beings. We have goals, we know what we want, and we are working towards them. No imagaine yourself 30 or 40 years from now. That's my master. And he has trained with the disciple of the disciple of Ba Gua's founder. Very rare. That is why this man has by ultimate respect. In fact I can't think of a living person I have more respect for right now.

[KC Elbows]

Very cool. I admire martial artists in a similar way that I admire painters, sculptors, etc. Not really differently, though I'd have more to contribute to a conversation about martial arts than painting or sculpting. However, they're the same: people who have cultivated a skill.

Oddly enough, I hold a somewhat japanese view of the warrior arts. I do not respect a warrior who has not cultivated another aspect of him or herself. I might admire their martial skill, but not their personality. I expect more of them. For me, it is writing and music. I find that these other sides to myself keep me grounded. I might stand in a room full of people who I could physically defeat, but I always know that there is some arena, be it science or art or what have you, where they could defeat me.

Anyway, I'm glad you have a good teacher. I'm very happy with mine.

[MonkeySlap Too]

There is a fine line. I remember having a beer with a friend of mine who also teaches. He asked me if I remembered all the cool stories you would talk about - the stories about your seniors and teachers. "Well now bucko", he said, "we are the subject of those stories."

I found this positively frightenning, but he is correct.

In training, it seems that it is good to keep a professional distance from beginners. But by the time a student worked their way "into the door", they often attribute far more ability to you than you possess. It's a phenomena my Silat teachers calls "putting someone in Sliwa (the box)". In other words, they have already lost in their mind to you.

I'm not sure it is harmful to look up to your teachers. My Shuai Chiao teacher has my undying admiration - not just for his skill and generosity, but for just how good of a person and family man he is.

But deep down, we are all the men behind the curtain. I think teacher worship can be very bad, but respecting your teacher is very important. I have noticed that teachers who are into worship are often afraid to let their students train with other teachers, especially from the same 'style'.

[taijiquan_student]

It's fine to look up to your teacher up to a point. Seeing how good they are motivates you to work for the same skill and to go beyond it as far as you can go, because right in front of you is someone actually who did it, and because of it has amazing skill. But the problem with worshipping your teacher is that it takes everything I just said and dumps it out the window right on its head. If your teacher becomes a god-like person, someone who is above everyone else, then you're not motivated to reach their level--because you can't. Suddenly they're not a person who has worked hard for what they have, the're just "Master so-and-so". "Oh, I could never do what Master Zhang does. He's Master Zhang." You can't ever become as good as they are because you have put them above you and everyone else. Apparently this has happened before with my teacher's teacher, Master Wang.
That's enough. I'm getting redundant.

By the way Monkeyslap, Remo Williams is a great movie (I pretty much just like it for Chuin, though). Chuin's so rockin'.

[Nexus]

I don't need to place my Sifu on a pedestal because he knows how to levitate.

-rolls around on the floor laughing- -resumes meditation posture-

- Nexus

[taijiquan_student]

:D

[Cody]

The awe of a beginner can be charming. It's normal, I think. However, Very soon, words and concepts, like "skill," "special training," "perseverence," should replace this awe before cult-like worship, or unhealthy idealization takes form. If anything, when a teacher parks himself on a pedestal, it might serve to dehumanize the student, via the perception of the teacher. Not good for either of them. I would say that if the teacher truly does not want and does not encourage in some way this sort of idolatry (especially in relatively senior students) it will not prevail.

Cody

[Ray Pina]

KC ELbows, I share a similiar view, must be from my Isshin-Ryu upbringing. With me its also literature and I can admire great painting and music though I have no skill in those areas.

[TenTigers]

no matter how down to earth the teacher tries to be, the students always put him on a pedastal. Unfortunately, some teachers take advantage of this, and exploit their students. There is the opposite side of the coin, and that is when the student finds out that the teacher is only human, suffers the same hardships, frailties of human existance-puts his pants on one leg at a time,has normal bodily functions (hey! Sensie ****ed!) suddenly the student/teacher relationship changes,. Sometimes the student gets an attitude, or becomes disrespectful-in other words, the teacher falls from grace.

[Black Jack]

I think respect for your teacher is a must, without it the learning enviroment would stink, but not one of blind faith, you should be enccouraged to ask questions, experiment, play with others and try things out for yourself, this allows the respect to be two ways.

Two adults working on the same goal.

[Cody]

Whether the teacher is down to earth for real or in apparent attitude, or truly egocentric (involving a use of skills to impress, etc.), we would agree that the problem of the pedestal is a stubborn one, Ten Tigers. I liked your post.

Part of the difficulty comes from the nature of the arts, such skill which is sometimes beyond understanding. There is also a strong feeling of hierarchy, probably more extreme than people, particularly Western, are accustomed to in day-to-day life. It's a social thing, often approaching a religious or quaisi-religious situation. There can be an overt religious connection involved. Even without that being stressed, the teacher becomes as a portal, or the finest available example of what is taught and/or experienced. An overwhelming, magnificent being who can do no wrong, or at least nothing of import. Actually, the portal analogy is not so very far off, and it not bad in itself, except when it clouds the reality of the humanity of the teacher.

In situations where the student might have been inappropriately put down time and time again, generally physically, for the Purpose of cementing subordination to the teacher, the issue of disrespect, as you have discussed, would tend to be strongest in my view. This would apply not only to the student who has been mistreated, but in some of his peers. The resentment may or may not go on to a mature appraisal, but that is something else.

It's really difficult to deal with the worship problem, partially because of different levels of understanding amongst the students too. A beginner might see more than the advanced on some points. Also, what you bring to the school in terms of physical and mental ability and other sensitivities, how one compensates for what a body can't do, all sorts of things lead to differences in interpretation which sometimes are not and cannot be truly evaluated on a middle ground. Teachers know this. So, what is to be done. Well, in simple terms,

In simple terms, the teacher can tell the truth.
That a lot goes into being a human being. That the martial arts develops what you have within you, all of it, if that is what you want and what you live for. That some people have special abilities (i.e., strength or speed beyond your peers), and must realize that great responsibility is a focus in training. This applies to everyone, including the teacher.

The teacher does not accept flattery, and tells the student to go train more and find what is within and to develop it carefully.

The teacher imparts that he has trained his mind body and spirit and has found his own balance to the best of his ability, but everyone needs find their own. You come to this common place to develop this. It happens in different ways cause we have different things to give.

The teacher should make clear that he is the boss cause that is safe and right, but that the true altar is in one's own heart. Bring flowers to it, train it in compassion and toughness, respect it, be honest with it, and express it in the school without worship or coarse condescension. When lighting incense at school, wish for the good of those there, of the art, or just think nothing and light with silence. If there is a religious framework, use it for the same purposes.

Say all of it, and practice it.

I would posit, that for a teacher to merely pay lip service to the above might lead to an increase in the adoration we have spoken of, as well as the possible disappointment experienced further down the line by the student, who might feel confused as well that he has failed somehow.

Cody

[Ray Pina]

Eaxactly.

I think a good rule is that when you are new to martial arts and haven't developed an eye for it, be a little suspect. Is the teacher working hands on, how realistic is the training. But respect him.

When you've been around the block a few times and know, and found the person you want to stay with, then there's no such thing as too much respect.