Bagua linear forms

[batesy]

I've just started learning a linear form which my teacher got from a training partner years ago and can't remember the origin. He believes that it's from Yin fu style. The form starts with feet together, you execute a piercing palm with the right hand, (left in support). This is followed by a right elbow strike by your right hip as you step out to shoulder width with the feet). From there you execute a right hand drilling punch with pheonix eye fist and then step out with your left leg to horse stance and execute standard bagua palm. Sorry that's a bit long-winded but I am hoping that a fellow practitioner will recognise it and be able to tell me a little about it's origins or where I might find articles/videos of the whole form.
Thanks in advance.
Batesy

[dwid]

I know a lot of bagua linear forms, and none of them involve a horse stance. Maybe your sifu mistakened a kou bu for a horse stance, I don't know. What do you mean by a standard bagua palm? Do you mean a single palm change? A palm strike?

If this is bagua, it probably is a whole form. The bagua linear forms are very short, usually comprising a combination of at most a few techniques, which are put together in order to emphasize a particular principle that is underlying the whole.

I can't recommend a video, because without proper instruction, you may as well be trying to learn kung-fu from a britney spears video, as you'll be able to ape the movements, but they won't mean anything.

[Rockwood]

Dwid,
In Yin Fu Bagua there are a lot of horse stances, I think it has to do with Yin Fu's Lohan Quan training. They have a lot of preliminary forms that are very Lohan in nature and go all over the place like a Shaolin form, not in a straight line.. Some are extremely long. They are very different from the short, straightline Bagua application forms from Sun Xikun and Gao Yisheng bagua.

Just from what little I've seen...

-Jess O

[Leimeng]

A while ago I had the opportunity to work out one on one with Dr Xie Peiqi's disciple, He Jinbao. I made the mistake of asking about part of one of the forms by mentioning something "when we go into this horse stance here". I got about five minutes of really good detailed explination of why Bagua Zhang does not have a horse stance. I was not even asking about the footwork or stance work.

~"Horse stance" is a concept from shaolin based arts. Bagua Zhang is Taoist, not shaolin.
~To have a set "stance" in Bagua implies non movement, thus rigidity and stasis.
~A static set stance means one has stopped movement. This lessons the ability to respond to an attack.
~Doing forms, linearly or circularly is based on using dynamics developed from circle walking. Walking, not standing....
~If my Chinese was better I would relate more, but hopefully the idea is clear.

Suffice it to say that while we might like the convention of callling things by certain names, we need to be careful about what we say.
Hope this was an interesting diversion. Have fun training.

Peace,

Sin Loi


yi beng, kan xue

[Rockwood]

Sin Loi-

I've only seen a little of Dr. Xie's Yin Fu style Bagua, but their basic training had lots of moving in lines in a "Horse stance" looking posture, legs wide, bent at the knees, I don't know what else to call it. What did Mr. He call that posture? I also saw it in the two person basic drills as well as in the circle forms. Perhaps there is some difference from the Shaolin horse stance, but it seems quite similar.

-Jess O

[batesy]

I take your point fully about not being able to learn from a video, I guess I'm more interested in getting to the roots of what I'm doing, (I'm an historian by trade so I like to look at origins). There is most definately a horse stance in this form and from what others have said above I would agree that it does have a Lohan/Shaolin flavour to it. Thanks for the responses people, in lieu of information about its origins I'll just keep practising.
Cheers

[Scarletmantis]

BAN MA BU or "Half Horse Step" is included in both Liang Zhen Pu style and Zhang Zhang Kuei's Coiling Dragon style. The step strongly resembles a typical Shaolin "Stance", but it's only a short transitional movement designed to lower the hips for throws and suchlike. 70% of the weight is on the rear leg (thus HALF horse) and this keeps one from double weighting.
Ba Gua is a very broad and complex system with many styles and sets. I have seen just about every martial stand up technique known to man contained within Ba Gua. If it's a useful technique, someone has probably explored it internally.

Oh, and Leimeng, the word "Bu" can be translated either as "Step" or "Stance". You were not incorrect to call your horse stance a horse stance, but perhaps your movement was off (thus the long tirade about standing around). "Does not a (Ma Bu) by any other name smell as sweet?"

[jon]

Kinda inclined to agree on the idea of Bagua not containing 'horse stance' in the strict sence.
Horse in most kung fu styles including my Hung is a very static and solid stance where the weight is sunk right down and the legs are kept static. The body also tends to stick at one level and not deviate.
When i use a horse like stance in my bagua movement IF i do it properly:rolleyes: I will not 'sit' in that stance at all, it will be totaly transitory and im not sure i would even actualy assume a 'horse stance' at all so much as pass though the position on my way towards somewhere else.
The other thing is when its used the weight is usualy being thrown either from side to side or up and down. Its like your sitting down on a spring, you go down and up in one smooth motion.
This does NOT resemble Shaolin horse as its seen in fighting applications in sets. The reason for even using the stance is totaly different and certainly the power generation from it is.

So err yeah you do stick your feet twise sholder width appart and bend your knees at certain points but i would not call this 'horse stance' as that implys to me sitting in the actualy full stance.

If you where to take a picture though im sure you could call it a horse but looking at it in motion would be a whole other story.

As for the whole strait line thingy
I cant speak for other Bagua systems but i can perform all of my changes in either strait lines or circles. Its just how i use the footwork. Its possible some practiced in strait lines as that was simply the space they had available. The techniques still remain the same.

[dedalus]

I think I can identify this form.

There's a bagua applications book by Yan Dehua that you can browse here (http://www.thewushucentre.com/yandehua.htm). The translator, Andrea Falk, is also a pleasure to correspond with if you have questions.

The techniques detailed in this comic can be linked together to create a long-ish linear form. It is essentially the same form that Erle Montaigue teaches, although he has added some linking movements and of course teaches in more detail (especially with regard to loading and unloading movements) than can be conveyed in this manual alone.

This is an awesome form to learn. If you want to supplement your practise, both the Dehua manual and Erle's linear form videos are packed with info.

[Scarletmantis]

Nice! I'm always happy to find a book I haven't encountered before. The art is becoming more accessible to the public every day. The cover illustration on Yan Dei Hua's book a Ban Ma Bu application called "Old man carries the fish", check it out if you haven't already, it's one of my favorites.

Jon, just because you haven't encountered something in your Ba Gua training yet, dosen't mean it's not there. If you are making transitional movements where you are briefly entering a horse stance, learning applications for that movement shouldn't be that far off.

Oh, and for the record; whether you prefer the term horse step or horse stance, it shouldn't change the nature of the movement. "Old man carries the fish" is just a poetic way of saying "Dislocate the opponent's elbow as you throw him from a horse step". See what I mean?

[Crimson Phoenix]

I practice Jiang's bagua, and all the basic eight palm changes can be practiced linearly, even starting from a san ti shi xingyi stance...
I do believe that some currrents of bagua (there are so many!) do not contain any linear forms, but some definitely do.
if you go to emptyflower.com, you can also get some hou tian bagua clips (pre-heaven bagua if I am not mistaken), linear forms.
As for horse stances, I was surprised but there are definitely some here and then in the eight palms of Jiang's bagua (not that much, but you can spot two or three, especially in the 6th change).
Still, THE major stance used throughtout this bagua is definitely ban ma bu, half-horse stance...and I do agree that somehow, horse stances in bagua just don't feel pure bagua...but who am I to judge? And aren't Dong's major students reputed to have been proficient in at least one style, often an external one, before being taught bagua?
On a side note, I think it's time to drop these taoist vs buddhist things, chinese thought has been heavily influenced by the two, not only in religious practices but in deeper and wider aspects of "being chinese".
I have seen songxi neijia, a "taoist style" (notice brackets), and it contains horse stance, not much, alright, but definitely some here and then...it's in my opinion also silly to say "horse stance equals shaolin". Horse stance is a stance, nothing buddhist or taoist or anything in it, and it's not because shaolin uses it a lot that it is strictly of shaolin descent.
Just my opinion...

[dwid]

It's amazing the variation in Bagua. I've never even seen a half horse step - maybe I'm just confused as to what it is and it has a different name in the style I study. Anyway, interesting posts here, and amazingly, nobody is flaming each other about studying the true bagua or whatever.

[Rockwood]

You are in Ohio right? If you are ever up in the Akron vicinity you ought to look up Tony Yang, his Yin Fu style Bagua is exceptional. I visited him and his student Bob Figler last year and got to see a little bit of their Bagua. It is very representative of the Yin Fu method, you would very much enjoy it. They have a complete system with basic training, palm changes, weapons, the works. www.wutangcenter.com

-Jess O

[dwid]

I know they host seminars occasionally, and someone from there posts on here and drops me the occasional e-mail when they schedule a seminar.

I'd really like to get up there sometime. Thanks for the recommendation. It would be interesting to see the similarities and differences between Yin Fu and what I do.

[RAF]

Thank you Rockwood for your plug. Yes, dwid, we just had a bagua leg seminar. The first level is quasi-linear and later we add internal circle palms at various junctures. Its a fascinating form.

Ma bu is an important posture for transition movments in changing direction in the circle. For example, we might walk in one posture bai bu, ma bu, kai bu, bai bu, kai bu and change direction. However, if I put the form in a linear movement, then the application will reflect a ban ma bu.

You can see some of this in our linear xiao kai men.


http://www.wutangcenter.com/xkm.html

This basic form is also played in the circle. Its fighting can be done piece by piece in a semi-linear fashion or there is a two person walking the circle while rotating touching hands/arms. One side attacks in with an arm lock and a number of strikes/chops occur with two kicking and re-entering the circle.

dwid is right. Even within schools and systems you find a lot of variation. For me the bottom line is the ability to show its application while conforming to basic bagua principles.

Thanks again Rockwood and please come visit again.l



;)

[Leimeng]

~I am familiar with the movements of the half horse stance. Actually, my primary style is not Yin Fu Bagua. In the case of working out with Dr Xie and his disciples, it is important to not use the term "mabu". In the eyes of He Jinbao, using the term "mabu"implies standing around. Even if a person is not doing such.
~Perhaps it is a thing of instuctors sensitivies and semantics. Just got to learn what each persons things are and humour them. :)
~Scarlet, Who do you study Liang Style Bagua with?

Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

[Scarletmantis]

I studied (past tense) with Vince Black. When Vince moved from San Diego to Arizona I continued to refine with one of his senior students, Jeff Thornbloom. I understand that Vince has semi-retired from teaching, but you can look him up in Tuson (sp?). Jeff still teaches in Santee, last I checked. I teach informally in the Idyllwild/Pinecove area.

[dwid]

I grew up in Hemet, which I believe is pretty close to where you live/teach. Idyllwild is mighty pretty. My brother got married there.

[Scarletmantis]

Wow, dwid, that's pretty cool. Few folks know where Idyllwild is... too bad you don't live here now, as experienced training partners are hard to come by. It's a small world...

[dwid]

I don't know about how experienced I am, but I usually get out to California about once a year. Next time I make a trip, maybe we can train a little. I imagine Idyllwild isn't the most martial arts filled place in the world.

[razakdigital]

Hello,

I hope this article will help in any information you might want to know on straight line combat forms of Ba Gua Zhang


STRAIGHT LINE COMBAT FORMS

http://www.blacktaoist.com/Cao%20style%20straight%20line%20forms.html

Thanks and Enjoy...

[Walter Joyce]

In the gao style, cheng ting hua lineage, there are 8 sets of linear post heaven forms that can be done as a 64 move linear set. These application forms are, in theory, derived from the 8 palm changes.

Gao also allows for practice of the changes themselves either in a linear approach, for developing understanding of proper alignment, or while walking the circle.

As for the "stance" versus "step", gao style also practices the palm changes in three stages. First is fixed step, when the palm changes are practiced slow and broken into small pieces, where a "stance" would be more descriptive as the individual movements are held to develop alignment and proper form.

Next is linked, where "step" is more descriptive, as the rough edges are smoothed out and the palm change is done in a more continuous fashion.

Finally is the swimming body stage, where step is definitely the apt phrase. As this level the practitioner moves very smoothly, free flowing, allowing for creative interpretation of the palm changes as one walks the circle.

FWIW

[TaoBoxer]

I learned the Bagua taught by RW Smith, as is illustrated in his original text. Recently I have begun practicing the Gao system here in Eastern Mass from Lo Dexiu by way of Buddy Tripp. I am begining to see the roots of what Smith was teaching.

While learning Mr. Smiths forms, I can think of several postures that could be called "horse-stance-ish" but in the context of the movements of Bagua, I'd never characterize them as such. If you read Joseph Crandalls Bagua ChuanXue by Sun Lu Tang he has the White Snake Creeps through the Grass posture, which on paper looks much like a Hore Stance, but when performed obviously is not. The internal Kung FU arts especially are about Transitions... The movements in between the pictures as well as the feeling, intent and flow. Tai Chi, Hsing I, and Ba Gua all share common postures/techniques, but each perform them a little differently.

I am very excited to learn the Gao method of Bagua. It is going to be really interesting to see more or less what RW Smith was taught and then to see how it differs from what I have learned.

[Lincoln]

We definately have a horse stance,(Ma Bu), in our style of Bagua.
It is not the same horse stance that they have in Shao-Lin. It is shorter and the pressure does not go into the knees it goes into the Kua and feet. The stance is solid and transitional, as all postures should be in Bagua.

Wujidude wrote:
Can't tell from a still photo how "transitional" horse-stance is for this branch of Gong Bao Tien BGZ, but check out the "Yin Fu posture examples" page at this website, http://www.ayba.org/Bagua/

All of the postures that Michael Guen demonstrates on that website are from a linear form called Bagua Pao Chui. It is a very long form, takes about 4 minutes to complete. It is the longest straight line form we have. We also call it the 64 form. I did half of this form at the All Bagua Tournament last month. All of the other linear forms are semi long, they take at least 1 minute to complete. They all have a different skill(s) to teach. They all can be broken down into different training exercises to teach, get the feeling for, the different skills.

Lincoln

[count]

A circle is just a line that begins and ends in the same place.;)