How big of a triangle...

[IronFist]

They say your feet in YJKYM should be on the corners of an isoceles triangle, pointing towards the upper corner. How big should this triangle be (side length)?

IronFist

[yimwingchun]

I've wondered about this also. How big is too big? Is it when your feet are outside of your shoulders? I know that you need to maintain stability and rootedness in your yjkym, so what you want is a stable rooted base that is mobile and can change at any moment. I'm just now entering into my footwork training and could use a few pointers.

[Phil Redmond]

Since we're all anatomically unique, the stance should be wide enough so that you can't be pushed off balance. It's a matter of body type.
Phil

[yenhoi]

How do you open your stance?

Stand at attention. You first pivot on the balls of your feet, then on the balls. This should put you in the correct slt stance, and should put your feet in the right position for your body. Remember knees should be about 1 fist apart from one another. I dont think you should have to adjust or shuffle ever to get into slt stance, just do the opening.

[Roy D. Anthony]

The distance of the triangle, often varies with each Sifu or lineage. however one thing that needs to be viewed is the following, just my observations. Most Sifu's that have a different MA background from WC, before they start WC, tend to make their stance very wide. SOme Sifus that had no outside MA experience often times make the stance too narrow.
The correct distance is a balance between the 2. in our lineage the knees about a fist distance between the knees is too narrow, and from teaching WC for 17 years, I have seen that many people that use the narrow stance end up experiencing knee problems.
The stance too wide, limits the mobility.
The opening of the stance is done this way for balance between being too narrow and limited mobility.
When you oprn your feet, using the toes, open your feet to the 45 degree angle. then plant your toes down, and slide your heels to the other 45 degree angle. the Knees should end up under the iliac bones of your hips. Perfect balance, and perfect mobility options. Hope this helps!!!!

[old jong]

I don't like a too narrow stance myself (it should not be too wide also,as Roy said)
You have to feel solid and mobile at the same time. My method is: Feet together...Bend the knees maybe 40degrees +or-...Open the toes to 45deg...The tail bone is tucked and the hips locked forward...Open the heels 45deg...Make sure the spine is aligned.
I understand there are some variants with differents lineage but common sense should prevail and keep us away from extremes. ;)

[sunkuen]

there must be an echo in here!!!:D

[old jong]

hehe
there must be an echo in here!!!

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[stonecrusher69]

I think a good rule of thumb for the correct distance of the stance is that the heels of your feet should match about or a little past shoulder . If you have a very wide YGKM stance then when you turn into your fighting stance you'll have a bow and arrow stance witch wing chun does not use because we are a close range fighting art.If your YGKM stance is to norrow then it will effect your root and your steping will be slow.

[straight blast]

In your lineage do they not teach you how to measure the stance out? Just curious because it was the first thing they taught me and they keep a very close eye on it as if it's done wrong knee problems can develop. As someone said the width of the triangle is individual but it is easily made by the shape of your hips and body. I'd have to go with the feet together, then rotate both feet out about 45 degrees on the heels, then rotate 45 again this time on the ball of the foot method. This way your own body structure dictates the shape and size of your stance. :)

[Matrix]

I believe that Ironfist is trying to learn WC from videos. Maybe that will help you understand the source of his questions.

Matrix

[WCFish]

How far the feet turn in and their distance apart are dependent on the individual as has been pointed out. However the reason for doing the stance in this manner is entirely to do with the positioning of the hips.
When the legs are abducted slightly and the femural head is internally rotated it puts the articulation of the acetabulum and femoral head at its best position. i.e. they have the most surface area in contact. By pushing the hips forward and creating a posterior pelvic tilt the ligaments surrounding the joint tighten thus holding the "locked" waist position often talked about.
Add to this the tension in some muscles and tendons and you get a very stable anatomically strong stance.

[IronFist]

Yeah, Matrix is right, my lineage is videos and you guys :) That's why I ask the weirdest questions here.

IronFist

[anerlich]

At university, I did a module called Projective Geometry. In this form of Geometry, you have an extra point, infinity, which is where parallel lines meet.

In TWC we do the stance with feet parallel, so the triangle only exists for us if one can work with Projective Geometry.

Roy, in a unusually long and informative post to which I tip my hat, gave some good advice. I would add that many young males of a few months training often try for an unusually wide stance, as if somehow this means they are training and pushing themselves harder. This is not the case. If the structural integrity of the stance is violated as is the case with a VERY WIDE stance where you are overstressing the knees and putting you weight on the inside edges rather than the base of the feet, the training value is diminished.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by anerlich
At university, I did a module called Projective Geometry. In this form of Geometry, you have an extra point, infinity, which is where parallel lines meet.

Awesome!




In TWC we do the stance with feet parallel, so the triangle only exists for us if one can work with Projective Geometry.



Eh? Isn't this worse for your knees than with the feet turned in? The knees are always supposed to follow the toes (anatomically speaking).

IronFist

[Roy D. Anthony]

Good point. But why is it important to have the toes and knees in same direction?..this is the Question.
There you go Anerlich..short answer again. Your patronage is noted.

[anerlich]

Eh? Isn't this worse for your knees than with the feet turned in? The knees are always supposed to follow the toes (anatomically speaking).

I think the knees and toes are supposed to point in the same direction for structural integrity, which they do in both the parallel and pigeon toed version of the stance. The same applies to low horse stances and Hindu Squats also, FWIW. You quote Pavel - have a look about what he says about knee alignment in his stretching books. No violation of anatomical principles here.

My Sigung's been doing this for about fifty years, My Sifu about 28, me nearly 13. I don't know anyone who does TWC who's developed knee problems from stance training.

[Roy D. Anthony]

It is worse than knees turned-in in other ways, not just the knee problems.

[anerlich]

Looks like Roy's gone back to short answers. This one begs the question also.

[IronFist]

Roy said:
Good point. But why is it important to have the toes and knees in same direction?..this is the Question.

anerlich said:

I think the knees and toes are supposed to point in the same direction for structural integrity, which they do in both the parallel and pigeon toed version of the stance. The same applies to low horse stances and Hindu Squats also, FWIW. You quote Pavel - have a look about what he says about knee alignment in his stretching books. No violation of anatomical principles here.


I quoted Pavel? What did I say?

Ok, see, here's what I'm thinking. When someone is beginning barbell squats (I'm talking about real, ass to the ground squats here), a common mistake is to bring the knees together on the way up. In fact, beginners should often imagine pushing their knees apart in order to just keep them in place. My point was, if you barbell squat for too long like this, it will destroy your knees. The knees must remain over the feet. This is also seen in a traditional horse stance. Another vital aspect of barbell squatting is that the knees must follow the direction of the toes. For example, if the feet are parallel, the knees must go directly forward in a squat. If the toes are slightly pionted outward, the knees must go slightly outward as the squatter decents.

Now, YJKYM violates this principal, because the knees are not over the feet. However, when the feet are turned in a bit, the knees, which are inward, are still in line with the feet. This is the reason I don't think it's that bad for you. Also, in YJKYM you aren't going down all the way (as opposed to squatting), so this causes less pressure as well. Finally, you aren't supporting any additional weight (ie. a barbell) so there's less stress there.

But still, every time I watch myself to YJKYM in the mirror (I'm still a beginner, remember? So I do it in the mirror to check my form) I always cringe and wonder, "is this grinding my knees apart (in the long run)?"

IronFist

[anerlich]

I quoted Pavel? What did I say?

Mate, look at your own signature file. There's Pavel's quote, you know, first up? This is not your finest hour :D

[IronFist]

Originally posted by anerlich


Mate, look at your own signature file. There's Pavel's quote, you know, first up?

Oh, I know that. I thought you said something I mentioned in my post was a quote. My signature isn't even relevant to the discussion :)


This is not your finest hour :D

You have no idea how exhausted I've been all day. I'm sure the people I talked to today think the same thing :)

IronFist

[anerlich]

No worries IF. Mine was a cheap shot anyhow.

cheers

[diego]

http://www.roylawaetz.com/theory.htm

[Matrix]

Originally posted by IronFist
But still, every time I watch myself to YJKYM in the mirror (I'm still a beginner, remember? So I do it in the mirror to check my form) I always cringe and wonder, "is this grinding my knees apart (in the long run)?" Just think about this for a moment. Assuming that you have the stance correct, there are literally thousands of people who have done this stance for years, even decades and did not "grind their knees apart".

Your comparison to doing barbell squats does not apply here. You are putting a lot of stress on your knees when lifting heavy weights. What you are trying to accomplish is entirely different from YJKYM.

IronFist, you really need to find a Sifu who can help you these types of issues. These types of issues are critical to your future development as a Wing Chun man. Even on an occaisional basis, a sifu can give you the type of personal instruction that video tapes cannot. You're obviously a dedicated student of the art. I think that many sifus would be pleased to have you as a student.

Best of Luck,

Matrix

[Roy D. Anthony]

Actually Matrix, what Ironfist brought up about squats is entirely relevant. If the stress is right in the Squats , then it is entirely relevant in the YJKYM.

[burnsypoo]

the knee joint is for weight/stress PASSING, not BEARING.

-BP-