Wong Long

[Mantis9]

Recently, I have started to reinvestigate the traditional histories of past masters of 7* PM--in particular Wong Long. Through out my training I have keep this interest in the back of my mind, focusing instead on the PM itself, only remembering superficially my lineage's stories. This has change, in large part, due to posts on this forum and others. So (and here the point) I would like to compare stories of PM founder Wong Long.

I would like to open this disscussion to all PM lineages. I find it very interesting to explore the subtle differences between families whose style sprung from one originator. Also, I would like to avoid the question of authenticity between these histories, since histories in martial arts are hard to confirm and because of the sincerity in which they were undoubtedly related to all of us.

Oh, and if you have a web site that tells a fairly accurate account of your story, just post that. Save your fingers for mantis hooks.

The common feature that I have seen in my search is, of course, Wong Long looking to a mantis for martial guidance after lossing challenge matches to successively more adept monks. Other than that the date, ranging from the Song to the Qing; his socio-economic status; his level of indoctrination into the Shoalin temple; if the developed PM in the temple or after it was burned; and whether he existed at all are different.

Anyway, thank you for your input. I have to go now and see if I am still able to mantis hook.:(

[mantis108]

The following are a few points through my own research on the origin of Tanglangquan. They are my views only.

1) There is a temple in Lao Shan ( a famous mountain in the region) that is said to be "Wang Lang" Hau Yin temple which has the "biography" of Wang Lang (1609 - 1702).

2)There are 2 types/versions of Wang Lang's life story: Romantic and Ordinary. Romantized version has Wang being a patriot of Ming dynasty ( Hau Yin temple tales) and was rescued by Shaolin monk; therefore, received teaching of the Shaolin temple. The only problem with this "theory" is that if he did why didn't he repaid the favor of the monk(s) who saved his life with his new knowledge of a Kung Fu system. There is no PM system originated and practiced in Henan provinces where Shaolin temple is situated. Shandong provinces, however, has record of Tanglangquan since Ming dynasty. The Ordinary version of Wang's story is that he was exposed to many styles of Kung Fu since his father was rich and was able to hire martial artists to tutor Wang since Wang didn't like reading and writting that much. He could have went on a quest under his father or his teach's suggestion. I suspect he went to a temple (Ling Yen temple) under the recommendation of his teacher Wong Gar Chung, who was a Taizu Men stylist (a common Changquan style in Shandong back then). The abbot and him had a friendly match. The result was that the strong armed style (Bai Yuan Tong Bei?) of the abbot was too strong for Wang to over come. Then came the mantis story and then Tanglangquan was born WITH the help of the abbot. That means that Tanglangquan is more than Wang Lang's effort but Wang got all the credit as the creator. One thing of note is that this ordinary version is quite credible because the setting (Ming dynasty, Shandong province, Temple etc...), the characters ( Father, teacher, Abbot, etc..) and the plot (matches, losts, creation, etc...), but most of all it gave clues to the connection between Taizu Changquan, Tong Bei (if these style techniques were indeed within the Tanglangquan) and Tanglangquan.

3) There seems to be a mixed up on the tale of Wang Lang and the tale of Hsing Xiao Dao Ren (Li Bing Xiao?). Hsing Xiao had been reportedly visited the Hau Yin Temple many times. His purpose there was not clear. Hsing Xiao had a collection of Quanpu (Kung Fu manual) which was titled as "Shaolin Authentics". May be he was researching MA there? It is believe that this collection might have very little to do with PM. That is to say only "certain" material (theories and/or concepts) from this collection was adopted as PM theories and/or concepts. He was said to be the one who was "ignored" by the monks who were "practicing" Tanglangquan. He made a scene by challenging the younger monks and finally was granted an "audience" with the abbot.

4) Wang Lang was said to have married and have children. His wife was said to have inspired or help created the form Lan Jie or other form(s). Her middle name was Lan (orchard) or something to that effect. The older title of the Lan Jie form was written as Lan (orchard) Jeet (section/holiday). This is unverified however.

Mantis108

[Mantis9]

Thank you for your feed back.

You have brought to light yet more variation in the Wong Long story that I was unaware. I had always imagine WL as unwed. According to my lineage, he was an unshaven monk, which I assumed meant he never married. My understanding, or perhaps my misunderstanding, of his position within the Shoalin Temple simply made that leap. Very interesting!

If I may inquire, what are your sources? Are they mostly oral in tradition (i.e. related to you by your sifu/other masters.) Or do you have some scholastic sources that I may be able to access with permission?


Also, Is the information given about WL's father and his teacher found within your branch of PM? The reason that I ask is through browsing the internet and communicating with other 7* players I have never happened across this info. Although, one reason for this may be my historical knowledge of PM is still a bit shallow.

Anyway, thanks again. Your post was very informative.

[NPMantis]

Hi, here's the version I have taken from 'The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu' by Wong Kiew Kit:

--


Praying Mantis Kung Fu is derived from Shaolin Kung Fu. Wang Lang, a shaolin disciple, practised Lohan Kung Fu in the Shaolin Monastery during the Ming Dynasty, however, could never beat his class mates partly due to a small physique.

One day, after being beaten by his seniors in sparring, Wang Lang was resting under a tree and heard a loud noise. On further investigation he saw a praying mantis fighting with a much larger circada, the mantis defeat the circada even though much smaller using its long limbs. Inspired, Wang Lang captured a few praying mantises and and studied their fighting movements which he incorporated into his Shaolin Kung Fu. Although he could still not match the best monks, his improvement was tremendous.

His master suggested that he took leave from the Monastery and travelled the country to study diffent martial arts. During his travels, Wang Lang selected the best points from 17 other Kung Fu styles such as Monkey style footwork and the palm strike and incorporated these into his Lohan Kung Fu with Praying Mantis Techniques and thus formed Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

On his return to the Shaolin Monastery Wang Lang taught his Praying Mantis Kung Fu to the monks, which becme very popular - even replacing Shaolin Lohn Kung Fu as the main style taught in the Monastery.

Sheng Xiao, a taoist master, visited the monastery and was surprised to find the monks practicing this 'odd' style of Kung Fu, and was even more surprised when he could not match it with his Wudang Kung Fu. On finding out more about Praying Mantis he asked the monks, "Aren't you ashamed that the famous Shaolin Monks are studying Praying Mantis Kung Fu? Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu has been the hallmark of Shaolin throughout the ages." It was thus decided by the Shaolin Abbot that they would teach Sheng Xiao Praying Mantis and in return he would preserve and spread the art.

[mantis108]

"Thank you for your feed back. "

You are most welcome, my friend. :)

"You have brought to light yet more variation in the Wong Long story that I was unaware. I had always imagine WL as unwed. According to my lineage, he was an unshaven monk, which I assumed meant he never married. My understanding, or perhaps my misunderstanding, of his position within the Shoalin Temple simply made that leap. Very interesting!"

In Taosit even Buddhist traditions (in China), there are those who are devoted to the religious believe or spiritual life without actually joining the Sangha or whatever insititution. In Taoist case, which Wang Lang was in quite a few version, Doren or Xiaosi as a title would be a big hint that he was but wasn't a monk per se. It is kind of a paradox that Chinese thought patterns are like. One can still live in the secular world doing the "normal" daily things yet you declair that you are devote to the spirituality until you are ready to live in the monastery. Of interesting note is that 7 stars lineages often protraited him as Buddhist monk of Shaolin Temple. Personally, I am more inclined to believe that he was actually a Taoist (Hau Yin is a Taoist Temple) or his spirituality was more inclined as Taoist. This we can see from Meihua lineage Quanpu (Boxing Manual) that there is an abscence of Buddhist terminology and concepts. But there are lots of Taoist concepts (Ying Yang being the most obvious) including Qigong. There might be some reasons that the 7 Stars lineages pushed for the Shaolin identity. One of which is that Wang Yongshan , who was the Grandmaster of GM Luo Guangyu, was well versed in some Shaolin long fist systems as well. It is believe that he created what are considered to be the "pure" forms of 7 Stars. We have to remember that Taoism in Ching dynasty was regarded kind of lowly by the grass root folks because of supposed "employment" by the Ching Emperor as well.

"If I may inquire, what are your sources? Are they mostly oral in tradition (i.e. related to you by your sifu/other masters.) Or do you have some scholastic sources that I may be able to access with permission?"

Believe it or not most of the materials (written) are provided by forum members here and their school sites plus oral traditions of my style (CCK TCPM). Late Sifu Eric Ishii (7stars), his Kung Fu brothers, his friend Bambooleaf (a member here) and Mantiscave, Sifu Carl Albright (7 Stars). Sifu Ilya Profatilov (TJPM & 6 Harmonies), my good friend Tainan Mantis, My Kung Fu brothers Shaolin Mantis and Taijimantis plus many others have been very helpful in providing great material and info. I am sure you will found the quality of the info on this forum is quite high as well. If there are certain material you are looking for and I have them, I don't mind sharing with you or anyone. But most of the stuff that I have are TJPM material which may not be what you are looking for. Anyway, I am all for sharing. :)

"Also, Is the information given about WL's father and his teacher found within your branch of PM? The reason that I ask is through browsing the internet and communicating with other 7* players I have never happened across this info. Although, one reason for this may be my historical knowledge of PM is still a bit shallow. "

Yes, it was published in the New Martial Hero Magazine back in the 70s. It is now out of print. My Sigung, GM Chiu Chuk Kai did a series of TJPM Kung Fu for them back then. You can find the translation by me on my site.

Mantis108 Website (http://www.taijimantis.com)

To be honest, the history of Praying Mantis (any other martial art for that matter) is like Kurosawa's film Roshamen. Depending on the involvement of the story tellers, the same tale would have myraid versions. One thing I know for sure is that there are 2 main approaches to this quest for the truth: Creation or Evolution.

"Anyway, thanks again. Your post was very informative."

You are welcome and I am glad that you enjoy my post. Good luck on your journey. :)

Mantis108

[Mantis9]

I have read Wong Kiew Kit-- I believe while I was loitering at Borders. I didn't read it terribly well, just skimmed. So, I didn't catch the Wong's mention of WL's small physique. That's interesting because the story compares WL with the diminutive PM. Hmm?

Any tale of a master's size that I've heard (specifically Lo Gwan Yu and Fan Yuk Tong) tells that they were large men. I have heard it said that LGY was well over 200lbs due to his internal practices.

Thank you.

[NPMantis]

That's quite interesting, I guess the real truth is no one actually knows conclusively as stories change ever so slightly every time it is told - if you get a chance I think the story is on p.35 if you see the book again.

Take care bud,

NPMantis

[Mantis9]

I followed your link. Very informative. I am glad to find so many of PM players out there wish to preserve their histories by commiting it to paper (or in this case--the web).

It makes us newbies very happy!:D

I going to read over it again and then, just like Winnie the Pooh, think, think, think about it. (Corny Alert! Beep, beep!) But I digress.

I like to see the common threads between 7* history and Taiji's. Is there anyone else out there got something different? Or something you would like to interject into the conversation?

Thank you, once again.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by mantis108

In Taosit even Buddhist traditions (in China), there are those who are devoted to the religious believe or spiritual life without actually joining the Sangha or whatever insititution. In Taoist case, which Wang Lang was in quite a few version, Doren or Xiaosi as a title would be a big hint that he was but wasn't a monk per se. It is kind of a paradox that Chinese thought patterns are like. One can still live in the secular world doing the "normal" daily things yet you declair that you are devote to the spirituality until you are ready to live in the monastery. Of interesting note is that 7 stars lineages often protraited him as Buddhist monk of Shaolin Temple. Personally, I am more inclined to believe that he was actually a Taoist (Hau Yin is a Taoist Temple) or his spirituality was more inclined as Taoist. This we can see from Meihua lineage Quanpu (Boxing Manual) that there is an abscence of Buddhist terminology and concepts. But there are lots of Taoist concepts (Ying Yang being the most obvious) including Qigong. There might be some reasons that the 7 Stars lineages pushed for the Shaolin identity. One of which is that Wang Yongshan , who was the Grandmaster of GM Luo Guangyu, was well versed in some Shaolin long fist systems as well. It is believe that he created what are considered to be the "pure" forms of 7 Stars. We have to remember that Taoism in Ching dynasty was regarded kind of lowly by the grass root folks because of supposed "employment" by the Ching Emperor as well.

Mantis108

I agree. I know that Wang's master is called Yu Hwa Tao Ren or Yu Hwa Zhen Ren. That is a moke's calling. Wang himself is also called Yeh Shan Yo Ren. That name is a Taoist name but not a moke's calling. So I guess Wang is only a Taoist but not a monk.

[mantis108]

Hi Mantis9,

Glad you like My site. :) Thank you. Technology has made keeping records and sharing them much easier. That essentially empowered us as martial artists to do research. Glad that you are going deeper into the your study.

Although there are many styles of PM out there, we are all in fact within one big Mantis family.

Hi Paul,

Very interesting info. Thanks for sharing. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Add on some explains:

Wang Long's sifu is Yu (feather) Hwa (melt) Zhen(true) Ren (man) or TaoRen. He was in Shan (3) Chin (clear) Taoist tempole in Lo mountain. He practices TaiZhu longboxing form. Not to be mistake for the common known Tai Zhu as Tson dynasty's founder. It is form the Founder of Taoist--ShanChin ZhenRen. It is Taoist longboxing form that Wang originally learned before he went off the Lo montain and visited the near providences. He later incroperated 16 other skills into his longboxing form before he met the ShiaoLin monks. After ShiaoLin monks, he added mantis skills in. So the final total comes to 18 different skills in the mantis style.

I think I have got the word order typed wrong, Wang's taoist name was Yeh (leaf) Yo (have) Shan (mountain) Ren. Not a monk's tittle.

[Mantis9]

exclaims that Wong Long is not actually a name, but a title. Something like "Young Lord." (I have to check his site again to make sure my facts are right.:confused:)

PaulLin and Mantis108

TaoRen means "true man." Is this the proper title (or is it a name) for a taoist monk? Is that the only telltale sign of his religious affiliation or is there also other indicators that point to it? How would you know if they are a monk or just have the religious devotion like you have said? Is that the title Xiaosi? Or does that mean the same thing as TaoRen?

I don't speak any of China's languages, so it is not that obvious to me.

I apologize for all the questions in advanced. I know both of you as well as many other in the forum are good sports when it comes to answering questions.

[PaulLin]

Mantis9,

TaoRen means "The man of the way(Tao)" ZhenRen means "the True man". They are all represent the people who dedicated their life in order of total harmonization of the Tao. They are like moke--no marry, etc.

ShanRen means "the mountain man." It is not a monk. Just says a man who don't live in city life and being with the nature.

[mantis108]

Hi Paul,

Great add on info. Thanks

Hi Mantis 9,

A name in Chinese is very important. Traditionally, you would have a family name (Sing), given name at birth (Ming), given name when come of age (Gi), Chosen name in public (Ho). You might also have family nick name, chosen name for your trade such as the spiritual discipline (kind of like Christian name) or pen name (if you are a scholar). So that's why a person could have 4 or 5 names. By addressing the person with a certain name shows your relationship and status with him/her. Family name is your root so no one can change that except if you give it up (by choice or by circumstances) to adopt a different family name. Given name at birth is rearly use even in the household. It usually is form a long sonet or poem that tells the story of your family. The purpose of the birth name is basically to tell which generation you are from in the genology tree. You will mostly be called by your nake name that your family members gave you until you receive the given name for public use later. When you come of age (15 - 20), there would be a ceremony and you will adopt a name to use in public. You will go by that name till the end of time. If you become a scholar you are allowed to choose a pen name, which your friends and colleagues will call you by . If you become a Taoist or Buddhist you will be given a practice name also. In some cases, if you have a trade (i.e. martial arts.) your Sifu could give you a name as well. This is the trade name. In practice, you will mostly know to the world by your trade name (much like our names on the forum) :D . Only those who are very close to you would know all your names. To address someone with their birth name or family nake name in public would be considered a degrading insult that is like saying you are but a child. That is the naming convention.

In Taoist case, ZhenRen (really/ture person) or SheungRen (upper/higher person) is a status of achievement. You seldom call yourself that. It is out of respect that people address you by those names. Like Cheng San Feng, the legendary Taijiquan founder, would be call Cheng ZhenRen by people. He would refer to himself as DaoRen (a person who follow the way). SheungRen usually goes with a proper title or Taoist name and is use in documents or books and is in some cases given to the Taoist person by the Emperor or high government officier. There is also a SanRen (loose/idle person) which can be use as pen name. ShanRen (mountain person) is a favorite pan name among the confucian scholars who enjoys the countryside as opposite to the big cities. Usually, scholars use ShanRen for writing fictions or non political/academic articles.

Regards,

Mantis108

[Roc Doc]

mantis 9, i would like you to email me (your address is not available on this site). i have something i would like to communicate with you about.
thanks,
roc doc

[Mantis9]

Mantis108 and Paul,

Thank you for the lesson.

I wonder if you have any clue why WL, in mantis108 history in particular, he lacks that revolutionary fervor presented in mine. I think it could go back to mantis108 idea of Wang Yongshan changing religious leaning to buddhist, not taoist. However, I would not assume that Taoist, who were Ming, where thrilled to come under the rule of the Manchurins. (I known this statement could well show through my ignorance of Chinese history, but you have to start somewhere.:) )

Also, I would like to ask, if anyone out there, or perhaps you, mantis108 and Paul, has any information that points to the contrary? Something that might make you conclude that WL was a buddhist monk, a revolutionary, etc.? Obiviously, there are some branch and families that adhere more to this perspective on WL? Is it simply out of tradition or other factors?

Some sifus in the Lo Gwan Yu lineage offer up the idea that there may have been mutiple "Wong Long" persons that founded the PM style and were later represented in story as one person.

Let me add, when I ask these questions, that I am not looking for "proof", but ideas, speculations, and circumstancial evidence. Though, if you have "proof" you can offer, please don't hold that back. :D

I'm just curious.:p

Thanks guys.

PS Roc Doc. I activated the link to my email address, so you can contact me at your convenience.

Bye

[PaulLin]

Wang Long is a Taoist. As you can see that the most tudi all the way till 7th generation didn't move out of ShangTong provadence. That is where Taoism are common rooted and Buddhism not much there at all, at the time period. There are 2 possibilities that why WL was said to be Buddhist:

1. As you already thought of, Manchuria (Chin dynasty) honors Buddhism and WL was fighting them at the time. There is a chance that he disguise as a Buddhist to escape the Chin's search.

2. Some Martial Artists form Shiao Lin branch can't accepted the fact that a Taoist WL has defeated the Buddhist Shiao Lin, so they made up story that WL is actually a Shiao Lin Buddhist and therefor Shiao Lin was never beaten.

to 108,

That name system you talking about I think only the wealthy big family does that. There are many different rules if you go to different placese. There one you talked about are the most official one in Chinese culture of name rules. Usually you will see a much simpler rule applied individually. For example: my family have Last name(Sieng) and followed by generation word (20 of them one for each generation, so up on telling name, you know how to call the person--brother, uncle, etc.) and at last the personal word. The name system was lost by most people, the China has the cultural revolution and Taiwan has changed by Western cultrue to be modern. It is so nice to see some one knows such lost cultural treasure in detail. As you can see that I used my real English name any where, and it is my legal name. I don't make up more names and will ever unless I was reborn(like being a monk).

I think ShengRen(Upper/high man) was title in Buddhism, like famous Chuer Yuane (feel far) ShengRen of Shiao Lin. In Taoist, title like ZhenChun (real gentalmen/honoriable man), ShianRen (supernatural man), BainShian (half-supernatural), LaoTzu (old ancestor) are what I have heard of, may be more, but I can't think of it now.

[Mantis9]

Between you and mantis108, WL being a taoist, not a buddhist, is a very compelling argument. I asked for evidence to the contrary, not because I don't believe you and mantis108 or that I think that your assertions are inaccurat, but in the interest of a lively conversation. The post had a two-fold purpose: to entice others beside you, me, and mantis108 to post on this thread and to, perhaps, learn something new that had not become apparent to me before.

You might not have been thinking this, but I wanted to make my intentions clear. I appreciate your posts.

Mantis09

[mantis108]

Hi Paul,

Just as I thought, you recognized it right away. :) BTW, my name is formed the same way as yours. It feels good to meet similar cultural background folk on the net. Don't you think? I think you may be right about the SheungRen title. I thought it is interchangeable but may be not. Thanks for the input.

Hi Mantis 9

Thanks for such a great thread. Just would like you to know that there are other theories and perhaps even evidences that WL was not Ming dynasty but perhaps even older than Ming dynasty (try Northern Song dynasty) . Some suggest that he had "taught" Mantis at Shaolin during the Northern Song dynasty. But I don't go for that theory for many reasons:

1) Northern Song was too chaotic and too much emphasis to be civil. Shaolin at the time wasn't like its glorious past. There weren't much activities regarding martial practices at the temple except Sifu Ilya Profatilov believes that there are 2 documents said otherwise. Other sources point to the fact that Shaolin's martial practice was rebuilt by Guo Yuen (feel far) Sheungren during Yuen dynasty.

2) The strongest point for the Shaolin connection is that the Meihwa lineage has a unknow bandit, who is from south of China, where Henan province Shaolin temple is, could have moved from there to Shandong to avoid capture after WL taught him Mantis. But then bandit is somewhat of ambiqious term because virtually anyone who opposes the government could be dudded the term bandit. He could have been real bandit from other provinces of course. One way or the other we can go in circles with the revolutionist hypothesis.

3) The main reason why I don't "want" the Shaolin connection is that it opens doors for the modern Shaolin movie-fu-land, which is THE modern Wushu martial sports factory, to claim yet another authentic Kung Fu system as it's very own system. To pocket the credit for financial gain that's very sickening. As far as my understanding goes, even if there was a WL teaching some sort of mantis in the Shaolin temple, the forms that were taught there didn't resemble any of the forms that we are practicing today. I would even be happy to know that there was a WL who taught Mantis at Shaolin temple, and quite possible to be a Buddhist but he has nothing to do with the Shandong Meihwa Taiji Tanglangquan. I am not a fan of creationism especially when I see all the different training methodolgies that are available in Mantis. I know the stuff that are in mantis are the effort of many true human beings who have sweated and bleeded to pass on their true knowledge. They do kung fu not movie fu fantasy. We need really lineages not legends that can be manipulated by establishments' (government or otherwise) interests.

Sorry about the rant, but I would like to make myself clear why I am not keen on the Shaolin connection eventhough it might have influenced Mantis to a certain degree at certain point in the past. There are people who believe otherwise. I would love to hear their views as well.

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

From GM Wei, he said right after Wang Lang defeated the Shiao Lin monks, he was immediatly invited by the head of the temple (fang zhang) in the backroom for a private tea meeting.(the fang zhang is old, and he didn't fight, just watched the fights.) After they cool down a little, fang zhang said "one tree don't bloom with 2 different kind of flowers." That talk sonds like a poem test, but it is acturally asking WL to see if that he was a competetor in getting #1 place in kung fu and being a enemy to Shiao Lin. WL replied with "all martial artists under the heaven are all brothers." Which means he is only interested in arts and make friends, not care about being #1 or fame. To follow up his word, WL promise to teach the mantis way to Shiao Lin monks. After one years and a few months, WL left a note and left the temple.

There are differences between the mantis WL taught in ShiaoLin than he taught in ShanTong. The ShiaoLin branch mantis forms are based with ShiaoLin foundations, not Taoist ShanChin Chengchuan. The Taoist branch are make up with ShanChin Chengchuan+other 16 different skills+mantis way. The Shiao Lin should be ShiaoLin foundations(such as palmflower posts foundations and 6 harmony)+mantis way. That is how you can tell if the forms are form Taoist branch or ShiaoLin branch.

The 16 other skill's include: HanTung's TongBei, ZhenEn's FenChan, WenYang's ShortBoxing, MaChi's DuanDa, SunHuen's MonkeyBoxing, HuangZhan's KaoShen, MainShe's MeianZhang, JinShian's GaiShouTongChuan, HuaiDe's ShuaiJianEinBong, LiuShin's GuoLuTsiShou, TanFong's GuinLoGuanEr, YainChin's NaDea, LinChung's YuanYian kicks, MongSho's 7SheLianChuan, TsuiaLian's WoaLiBuChuei, and YangGuin's GuinTsai.

According to GM Wei, WL is at the begining of ChinDynasty.

Those are wrote in his book too.

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul Lin,
May I ask what is your source material for the stories of Wang Lang?

To my knowledge the oldest available material is Sheng Xiao Dao Ren's 1762 and 1794 books.
Very little is mentioned of Wang Lang in this material.

GM Wei has admitted to my teacher that the published book (Shr Yung Tang Lang Chuen)was compiled from many sources by Su Yuzhang. When reading this book it is very obvious that the info is from many sources and is somewhat conflicting.

GM Wei himself had no manuscripts and there is not recorded the name Feng Huanyi, except in his book.

Any help in locating dependable source material would be much appreciated.

[PaulLin]

TainanMantis,

The WL story are part on the book and also told by GM Wei as my father told me. The lineage is listed on the very 1st edition in which Su didn't edit that one. Not the later green cover book, it is a brown cover one. It was much thiner then the green one.

The 18 total skills was described in the poem/song listed in the book. GM Wei do not know how to make a poem so he must learned it form his master.

All my father and I ever known about 8 steps are form GM Wei. We didn't research on the history outside. We just don't care much about those history since there is never a official record made on it. All the stories on books are told by folks. We only care about the materials in the art itself--such as practicing, application, and philosophy. The ShangChin Taoist longboxing we do not know. The rest 16 other skills we can show you in actual moves where in the 8 step forms that they were at and how they were applied. The last mantis way is obvious.

any more you would like to know what I have known?

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul Lin,
Every several years this book is republished with a new cover.
My book has 143 pages. 10 Chapters each of which is broken into several sections.

Does that sound like your book?

[PaulLin]

There are 3 books I have. The brown one is the very 1st one, date I think back in 1960's. The second one is a light green one, about 1970. And last one is the hard cover deep green one.

The 1st one is most loyal to what GM Wei's words. It has not been add any other's words in it.

The 2nd book is added with some thing.

The 3rd book is sure to have Su and others add words.

I don't know any republished editions exist.

When I get home, I can sent you some pictures of the 1st book.

Where do I sent you in e-mail?

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul Lin,
No need for e-mail just yet. First, let's make sure we are talking about the same books.

For the first one I listed some details to help us decide if it is the same book.

The names of the three books

-Shryung Tanglang Quan
This is the one that I listed some details to above. As far as I know it is the only one published.

-Shryung Tanglang Quan Miji

-Shryung Tanglang Quan Xuji

[PaulLin]

Tainan mantis:

I think the book you described as ShrYungTangLangChuan sond like the first book. The one I have is published in Sep. 1968, with 143 pages and 10 chapters.

The other one is ShrYungTangLaungChuanXuJi, published in May 1972, with 20 chapters and 127 pages. This one has Su edited it already.

The last one is the hard cover one, still titled ShrYungTangLangChuanXuJi. It has 27 chapters and 179 pages. Published in Feb. 10, 1977. That one is also edited by Su and my father's picture is in it.

Other sources of what I have known came form my father's talk about how GM Wei have told him.

If you sent me the index of the book, then I can asure if that is exactly that book, for now, it sound like that one.

Su didn't edit the lineage tree, he mostly edited on adding extra forms, weapons. GM Wei found it out, but Su and the Wang(the publisher) said that it will make the book more pages and materials, that will help the book sale. So GM Wei let it go on like that. The lineage tree was re-layout by the publisher(for better looks) in the 1972 and 1977 books and lost its original postion, that made some confusion to the readers.

[mantis108]

Due to the technical difficulty the forum was experiencing, Tainan Mantis was unable to post the following reponse. He asked me to cut and paste from the file which he sended me.

<<I am a little dissappointed to hear that the last 2 books have a lot of material added by Su Yuzhang. I had hoped that they were the most reliable on 8 Step.
As for the first one I think the book has good info, but it doesn't list the sources which I have spent several years tracking down.

Most of this comes from Huang Hanhsun and Li Kunshan. Because of the way it is mixed up in the book makes the parts that come from GM Wei unreliable sources. Because I don't know if it is really from him, another student or another unknown book.

I will list some examples below.

GM Wei's Chapter 3 "Punching Method"

29 types of punches come from Huang Hanhsun's(WHF for his Cantonese name Wong Hun Fun) book Random Writings on PM(RWPM).

In WHF's book the punches are listed along with references to which forms they come from.

GM Wei's "Palm Method"

Also from RWPM. This is quite a letdown. In GM Wei's book lists a sonnet of palm techniques found in 8 Step, but then the explanation of the 15 palm techniques is from 7*.

GM Wei's chapter 5 kicking method, a different preface, but the kicks are almost an exact quote from RWPM.

GM Wei's chapter 9 "PM deals with the enemy" is mostly from WHF's book "Explanation on the Mystery of PM" And his quotes are from his own copy of Sheng Hsiao Dao Ren's 4 books.

Section 10 of this chapter talks about Secret Door PM. This is a name coined by Su Yuzhang himself and seems to imply he had a lot to do with what went into this book.

Also His Secret Door teacher, my Shr -ye Zhang Dekuei, had no manuscripts. The only book published on this style (by my teacher) has the manuscripts from Li Kunshan's Meihwa PM.

[Of interesting note is recent research carried out by Ilya Profatilov connecting GM Zhang directly to the tradition of Taiji PM.]

This particular section is one of the most misleading. It uses definitions of the term "diao" to hook. This character I have not seen in any manuscripts of Meihua or the Secret Door published by my teacher. It belongs to 7* and yet here it has been mixed in with Secret Door. Actually this section of the book has mixed Li Kunshan and WHF material into the same chapter.

At the end of the chapter is 18 Lohan Gung from WHF book. It has the ancient manuscript from Sheng Hsiao Dao Ren. WHF only published less than half and that same half is printed here.

According to my research the original teacher of this form in Taiwan is my Shr-bo Wu Mutsun. His teacher learned in a temple in Guang Dong of the Dz Ran Men style.

These are a partial listing of where information in GM Wei's book came from.

WHF started publishing books in 1946 and averaged 1 book a year until his death.

Tainan Mantis>>

[PaulLin]

Hi, Thanks mantis108.

Tainanmantis,

It will not be a surprise to me that if you find 7* or BeMen mantis stuff in there. According to GM Wei told my father, and the way I remembered my father told me, 7* came form BeMen, and 8 steps came form 7*. GM Wei, my father, and I didn't like to read or write in Martial art that much. We like to do and experience. GM Wei didn't have very much to put on the book any ways. Su has add more onto the book. I will go ask my father and see what he can remember that was form GM Wei's teaching and what is not. But before that, I will go home and look at the books and tell you about what I can make out in that aspect first.

Also, I would like to know the publish dates on any other books that if you have found the same materials listed on, if you have them.

[PaulLin]

Tainanmantis,

I think I have some questions on that book too. As I remembered back as my 8 years old, GM Wei correct me on the 8 postures as I perform them to him. The picture of the first one is not as what we stand in training, the horse stance was practiced as listed at the end of 8 stance--with TsaiShou and KeShou. The 6th one--HuTolShe, the 60-40 weight distribution is not 60 in front, it is 60 in the rear leg instead.

In the chapter 3, ChuiFa, are not practiced like foundation drills. The foundation drills we practiced are 8 stances, 8 kicks, 8 steps, and 8 strikings. But I went through the 29 hammers and palms myself, I can recognize them in the forms--the 4 small boxing and the 6 ZhaiYao. They are all in there alright.

The first section on the chapter 5 is not foundation either, only the #8, #10, and #11 was not practiced nor in the forms at all. The second section on the same chapter is the 8 kicks foundation that we practiced regularly.

In the chapter 8, there are 14 missing moves, 3 missing words, and 2 wrong words.

In Chapter 9, the section 1 and 2 I am formiliar with. The section 3, I am not formiliar. the sections 4 to 10 I can recognize. section 11 to 15 not formiliar. Sectin 16 to 23 I can reconize.

At the chapter 10, section 9, the 18 kungfa, I can only reconize 5 of them. We didn't include that 18 kungfa in the regular practice as the way it was listed, 2 of them was practiced in hte beginning of 8 stances, after horse, before bow. Well, that is so much I can tell you now, for more, I have to ask my father.

I think this book is not mixed with other people's words, it is all from GM Wei. I do not know if GM Wei has that WHF book nor my father ever heard of it, I don't know if that book was availible in Taiwan at the time or not.

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul Lin,
WHF's book Random Writings on PM is a compilation of his magazine articles. We will have to ask his student when it was published. He retired in 1970 and passed away in 1974. His artcles probably date from the late 50's or early 60's.

Explanation on the Mystery of PM was most likely published n 1947 and was his 2nd work. This info comes from Sheng Xiao Dao Ren's book from the 1700"s which was in his possesion.

According to my teacher, Li Kunshan's son Li Dengwu provided Su Yuzhang the secret meihua manuscripts. Li Dengwu's manuscript matches what is in GM Wei's book. This manuscript matches very closely if not identical to older versions in China. GM Wei has also told him this book was done by Su Yuzhang. I will ask him again.

The name 7* is over 100 years old while Mimen was made by Su Yuzhang probably in the 60's. Zhang Dekuei said his PM is Gu Tang Lang or ancient PM.
He never said Mimen or bimen, nor does it exist in China.

Of interesting note is a Secret Door PM book that attributes the Beng Bu form to GM Zhang. My teacher took this book to GM Zhang. He was a little upset and said he doesn't even know this form.
This book was published by a famous Japanese student of Su Yuzhang.

So it is apparent that some incorrect info has circulated about this style.

[PaulLin]

Tainanmantis,

This book my father don't think Su has edit it, or he didn't know. Only Su knows now. Are you sure is this book? I am sure the other 2 books are edited by Su.

Mi men( the secrete door) is another way to call BeMen(closing door--the upper, middle, lower doors)(maybe only Su calls it Mi Men, he like to make things secreatized). Be Men was then called ShuaiShou. Just before the ChinDynasty end, it was called 7*. 8 steps based on 7*. This is also listed on the 1977 book page 3. That part I have heard of it form my father also, so I don't think that is form Su.

The bung bu, ba jou, lang jie were obsolate by the 4 small boxing when 8 step was made, so they are not in 8 step system. The 8 step systems is very condenced. The 4 small boxing is for traning the foundation requirements, then after perfection, move to the ZhaiYao. The advanced student only practicing mostly the ZhaiYao, not the small boxing. The 6 chapter of ZhaiYao should be attempted to finish all at once(endurance train too) with all requirements met.

I have not read the WHF's words, I can't make any common on that part.

Do you know when did Su learn the Meihua manuscripts form Li?

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul Lin,
When GM Wei told my teacher Su did the book it is possible he was talking about the 2nd or 3rd.

Ilya Profatilov has in his collection of rare manuscripts that he has posted a book called "Pictorial Manual on Plum Blossom Swinging Arms(shuai shou) Praying Mantis"
This book dates to the 1800's. It is the only reference I know of to Shuai shou that is not post 1960's.

Since most famous masters have written a book and passed it onto their disciple we would think that somewhere exists the term Bimen Tang Lang. I have not seen it anywhere. It can not be related to Zhang Dekuei according to his own admission. So who taught it and where is it mentioned?

In the book on Lan Jie that my teacher made with Zhang Dekuei he has written that the term mimen is sometimes called bimen. This is more proof that the term bimen is a modern one.

[Mantis9]

I, personally, would like to thank you all for answering my post. This has been a fun and interesting thread.:)

[argentino]

Just one comment,

>The last one is the hard cover one, still titled >ShrYungTangLangChuanXuJi. It has 27 chapters and 179 pages. >Published in Feb. 10, 1977. That one is also edited by Su and >my father's picture is in it.

If the latest version of the book was edited by shifu Su Yu Zhang that had to have happened before 1976. In 1976 he moved to Venezuela, therefore it was not possible for him to publish a book in Taiwan from South America.

Thank you all for this interesting discussion.

Best regards

Fernando

[PaulLin]

Argentino,

Su did travel out of country alot at that period. The book was writen before 1977, in fact, a lot of parts came form the 1972 book. So it is only published in 1977, but not wrote in 1977. Su edit it for sure.

Tainanmantis,

So form your info, I think that both 7* and Meihua were form ShuaiShou mantis. GM Wei didn't have any book nor his own writings/notes with him when he flee to Taiwan. Most things he have to memberized it. Just like I can sit there and call out the names of the movements form the 4 small boxing forms and the 6 chapters of ZhaiYao(my father made me remember them) without performing them.

GM Wei thinks BeMen is more correct name, MiMen is nick name or print mistake of Be Men. He told us that Be men is one of the oldest style. MiMen, on the other hand is very new name.

[Laviathan]

Hi guys,

In correct Mandarin Chinese, the character for SECRET Door Praying Mantis can be pronounced in two ways: MI, meaning secret/secretive, and BI which means constipation. It seems to me that Secret Style Praying Mantis should be pronounced Mimen Tanglangquan instead of Bimen Tanglang.

Here is a list of some Chinese books on Praying Mantis:

Tanglang Quanshu - Zhao Zhimin
Tanglang Bengbuquan - Su Kunming
Liuhe Tanglangquan - Zhang Xiangsan
Qixing Tanglangquan - Zhang Xiangsan
Shiyong Tanglangquan - Wei Xiaotang
Xu Shiyong Tanglangquan - Wei Xiaotang
Heihu Chudong Quan - Huang Wenhao

Hope this will help a bit, BYE!

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Laviathan
Hi guys,

In correct Mandarin Chinese, the character for SECRET Door Praying Mantis can be pronounced in two ways: MI, meaning secret/secretive, and BI which means constipation. It seems to me that Secret Style Praying Mantis should be pronounced Mimen Tanglangquan instead of Bimen Tanglang.


I try to look up the word "constipation" up in dicsionary, all I can come up with is a sickness that give people a difficult time on top of the toilet:confused: (are you trying to say it means consealed or closed-up? Be means closed, and used as same as the foundational kick "Be Men Chiao" as close the doors of your body position, rather then close the door of the teaching system.) GM Wei's book, the one published in 1977 with hard cover, chapter 1 section 2 says about that Mi Men is a misprint, Be Men should be a correct term. My father told me that MI Men was a newer nick name called by some practicers/students, it is not the proper/traditiional name for Be Men. That is what and how I know aobut this.

[Laviathan]

Hi Paul Lin,

Like I said before, the character for secret "Mi" can also be pronounced "Bi" as in Bianbi (Constipation). However, there is another character which also pronounced "Bi" meaning close/closed. So, according to your information about the misprint, than the style's original name was Bimen Tanglang (CLOSED Door Praying Mantis) but due to the misprint people got confused and started to call it Mimen Tanglang (Secret Door Praying Mantis). But strangely enough, Master Su Yu-Zhang's school uses the character for Secret (Mi) but they pronounce Bimen Tanglang (Constipation Door Praying Mantis:confused: )...

Oh, by the way, do any of you guys know some good traditional kungfu schools (Praying Mantis or other styles) in Taipei, Taiwan?

[PaulLin]

Well, the mi or be, pronounced like you said, but I don't know what is the meaning of using the Be as in constipation. The book I told you is wrote in Chinese, it says very clear about what I have said. I am sure that part is not one of Su's edited part.

PS.

usually traditional teach not fit for bussiness, so you mostlikely to looking for old way in parks and private teaching place.

[Tainan Mantis]

1. The character for secret in Mandarin can be pronounced mi or bi. Both have the same meaning.

2. Su Yuzhang is Taiwanese from Tainan country side. In Taiwanese secret is bi.

3. the mi or bi in "bian mi"-constipation is the same character as the "mi" in secret like you said.

4. Neither mi nor bi can mean constipation without being preceeded by "bian"

5.One of the meanings of bien is excrement.

6. Unlike mi/bi when you change the pronunciation of bien you can also change its meaning.

Hi Laviathan,
I have two questions I hope you can answer.
1. On your 18 Lohan Gung where did your Shr fu learn it?
2. What forms from GM Zhang Dekuei does your Shr fu teach?

[Laviathan]

Hi Tainan,

Well, my Sifu is actually a Choy Li Fut practitioner. I did learn some Praying Mantis in the past (Beng Bu form) but I am not a member of the Praying Mantis style. I practice Southern Style kungfu, but I am very interested in Praying Mantis (especially Eight Step and Secret Door). In Choy Li Fut we do have a Eighteen Lohan Gong but I don't know if it's the same as in Tanglangquan...?

I'm sorry for having confused you, but I have no relationship whatsoever with Master Zhang Dekuei. Actually I am not in the position to participate in this conversation because I am not a Tanglang practitioner. But I have collected some material about Praying Mantis through the years and, although my knowledge on this particular subject is quite limited, I hoped to share some of my opinions with the other participants.

Like I said, I am very interested in Praying Mantis and I hope I can learn more about the style's history, characteristics etc. from you, Paullin and the others.

It wasn't my intention to pretend to be a Tanglang exponent and stir up confusion. Hope you will understand.

[Tainan Mantis]

Laviathan,
Thanks for coming to this board. It is ok if your main style is CLF.
I am very excited to hear you know 18 Lohan Gung. I have heard from others that this form is so old it has been part of several other styles for many years.

Some questions I have about it in your style.
1 Any CLF people ever publish any material on it?
2. When did it join this style?
3. Does CLF have the original manuscript from late 1700's?
4. Will you be able to compare technique names with me on this board?

Thank you for your help

[Laviathan]

Hi Tainan,

In Choy Li Fut, as taught by Grandmaster Doc Fai Wong, we have a form called Shiba Luohan Yijin Gong (18 Arhat Changing Tendon Form). In other schools of Choy Li Fut it is often called simply Eighteen Lohan Fist. The Late Jane Hallander wrote an article about it in Martial Arts Legends called "Choy Li Fut's Internal Forms". In the article it is stated:

"18 lohan changing tendons form… is one of the traditional qigong forms originating from the Shaolin temple. The story told is that it was handed down by Bodhidharma himself. It is an exercise pattern that contains unique breathing exercises… there is plenty yoga influence and yoga-like positions. It also has built-in stretching exercises that increases flexibility and make connective tissue, such as tendons, stronger. It was used for healing and resistance to disease… [It] is strictly an exercise pattern designed to strengten muscles, joints and tendons, as well as teh overall immune system.
18 lohan kung also includes pressure point self-massage. Lohan kung's breathing methods have several differnet patterns. Cetain exercises breathe only through the nose… Others inhale through the nose and exhale through the mouth. Some positions require holding the breath [to condition and strenghten the lungs]."

18 lohan contains:

sitting lotus positions, refered to as "lohan meditating" and "lohan lifting the incense burner"

standing exercises, such as "lohan pushing the mountain"

balancing techniques like "Kwan Yin sitting on the lotus" and "Golden Phoenix looking at the sun"

recumbent positons like "the sleeping lohan"

martial movements like "Lohan fanning the cave" and "Lohan grabbing the demon"

special push-ups like "Lohan taming the tiger"

Tainan, does the above mentioned names sound similar to your Lohan Gong?

I don't know when this form became part of CLF's curriculum. Maybe Chan Heung (CLF founder) already knew this form, or maybe it was incorparated into the style by later generations. During the first years of the Republic, both Seven Star Praying Mantis (Luo Guangyu) and Choy Li Fut were taught at the Jing Wu Association. Maybe during that time, some Choy Li Fut teachers learned it from Luo Guangyu, or vice versa, some Tanglang practitioners learned the form from Choy Li Fut. But this is just a guess...

I'm hoping to meet Grandmaster Doc Fai Wong in June and than I will be able to ask him about this subject.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
1. The character for secret in Mandarin can be pronounced mi or bi. Both have the same meaning.

2. Su Yuzhang is Taiwanese from Tainan country side. In Taiwanese secret is bi.

3. the mi or bi in "bian mi"-constipation is the same character as the "mi" in secret like you said.

4. Neither mi nor bi can mean constipation without being preceeded by "bian"

5.One of the meanings of bien is excrement.

6. Unlike mi/bi when you change the pronunciation of bien you can also change its meaning.


Thanks Tainanmantis,
this explains well, since GM Wei don't understand Taiwanese at all and neither my father nor I. Now I know that is why in the book says that.