why are we taught to kill?

[respectred]

in a kung fu school i left a couple months ago that will stay nameless, most every technique i learned had some sort of killing action. these killing techniques even went overkill, sometimes they had 2 or 3 ways to kill somebody, but that's not what i'm trying to get at here. we were taught kung fu for self defense, but how far can self defense go if you're attacked on the street? i know if you're attacked it's either you or him who's going to be going down, but would you really want to kill or even cripple the person? i find that kind of sick, and i regret that i was taught such techniques. funny thing is, sparring was going to be implemented in our training. how is one supposed to use the techniques they've learned if they all end up in a killing move, and all the moves before the big kill are completely useless? am i completely wrong in believing that being taught to kill is a horrible thing? i dunno, i'm young these days, only had a year of training as well, maybe i don't appreciate murder yet as much as i should (...and i sure hope i don't, ever), so maybe i am wrong, who knows, but that's just my opinion. comments?

-matt

[Paul]

that's one good way to find out who the best fighter in the school is.

There can be only one!

[red_fists]

The way that I was taught was as follows:
"Killing techniques are the absolute last resort when all other options have failed."

And I don't think that has changed for the last few Centuries.
Police, Laws and Courts are not a 20th century Invention.
:D

The other reason for learning killing techniques is to avoid them and those spots unless you really want to kill somebody.

Yes, a lot of Guys got Visions of Masters of old going round and killing People and fighting deadly battles.
I think a lot of those are over-played real life incidents like the Gunslinger stories from the old Wild West.
As for training deadly techniques I also don't think that the Masters of old had plenty of volunteers at hand to practice them.
:P :P
But there are many Schools out there that use the "deadly techniques" or "killing mindset" simply as an advertisement tool to bring in the Customers.

IME, the more dangerous and deadly techniques one learns the less one becomes inclined to using them.
Just my 2 Yen worth.

[premier]

Knowing how easy it is to kill someone makes you value life more. Knowing how to kill also makes it possible to avoid it.


premier

[Cody]

Wants to kill someone, and I don't think it is healthy for martial arts training to Concentrate on this unless you're training a soldier who's shipping out. At your stage, I think it is inappropriate.

In fact, I can remember the rarity of any teacher of mine teaching anyone exactly how to kill. If anything, it was more like "don't do this because you can hurt someone badly or kill them." Followed by, "but, if you need to take action like that, this is how to do it without becoming injured yourself." something that would be said in class during instruction or in correcting a form applications interaction between students. We wouldn't be practicing how to kill each other after.

It could be that martial arts isn't for you, and that's okay. Or, that you have been exposed to someone who relishes hurting other people, which I think is wrong in any context. On the other hand, learning proper technique which might end in injury to an assailant is part of the package. Learning how to measure your own force so you can control what you are doing to the greatest extent possible.

There is another choice, though it sometimes is necessary to disable or kill someone. That is to become disciplined and skilled enough such that you can discourage or throw the attacker completely off balance, and get away. During sparring, one can experiment with techniques which might enable you to do this. I don't know whether you have zoomed in on just the climax because it shook you up, because what leads up to it is very important. Those can be learned as options, and ways to avoid bad positioning. There are times when no resolution or escape is possible, and one needs to be prepared. okay?

There are some people who really don't care. Others who are willing to do what needs to be done, and we all hope that good judgment is exercised. From my point of view the ability to judge another's intentions is very important, and should be part of the training.

Killing as an act of self defense is not considered murder, though certain individuals and segments of the population would consider it so.

take care,
Cody

[Scarletmantis]

Better to be a wolf among sheep, then a sheep among wolves. Let me ask you this: Would you rather know how to kill and never have to do it, or be clueless and dead? The martial arts are about combat. Even the softest Yang Tai Chi master should be able to fight (in a perfect world, anyway:rolleyes: ). If you didn't want to learn that, you could've taken up Yoga, jogging, basketweaving etc. I don't mind your opinion, but critisizing your school for teaching you what you presumably PAID your teacher to learn is absurd.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Its very different form leaning a movement that is said to be lethal and building the skill set to make it work. I think some people emphasize this because as some one said "it is what sells."

i talk of maintaining inner and outer balance, no one really cares much for this. some how they don't find the use. what many seem to want is to feed there fear with the ability to hurt others.
to become the wolf, mmm i would chose not sheep or wolf maybe just the ground they walk on. ;)


What kills is the intent; any movement can kill but with out the right intent no movement will work. a lot of MA training is learning how to work with the intent. A movement that kills might be moving out of the way allowing the other fall though a plate glass window or into the path of a car even helping some one to meet the sidewalk can kill.

Take the time to really see what your training is teaching you and building. If you don’t like it then leave.

[CLOUD ONE]

How about TAE BO?

[joedoe]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to. If you have a good, responsible teacher, they should also be able to show you the non-lethal variants of the killing techniques.

[African Tiger]

Dude (dudette?), think about why the martial arts were created in the first place. To protect the weak against the strong. And in most cases, the strong had swords, spears, knives, etc; and the peasants had none.

This is how the ruling class made sure the people could not rise against them, no matter how badly they were being treated. This has been practiced throughout time - most notably during the time of the Nazi party. Perhaps if the Jews had been allowed to keep arms....?

In this time frame of ours, learning how to kill is an absolute necessity. Recent events would indicate that we are not even safe at school or at work, much less on the streets. Faced with a maniac/PCP fiend/desperate criminal with a firearm, would you really even think of NOT being able to kill with your bare hands? What about your family?

If your sifu was an honorable man, he would have interviewed you before accepting you as a student - to make sure that what he was teaching you would not be misapplied. Or for that matter, whether or not you had a problem with learning how to kill.

From my Marine Corps training (which was nearly applied during Operation Desert Storm), knowing how to kill is only part of what you need to know. WHEN to kill is the most important.

I hope that you, nor anyone who posts to this forum needs to find that out the hard way. :eek:

[old jong]

Knowing ways to kill is one thing...Doing it is another!
My prefered way ,is to put a needle with my mouth in a precise point in the back of the neck of someone, when he's shooting at me with a gun!...No big deal! ;)

[LEGEND]

If u don't have the balls or anger to do it...u won't do it...I learn all that killing crap in ninjujitsu...first off u have to be anger enuf to do it. Second off killing someone bigger and stronger is a tall order for any man...hand to hand of course...I know guys that study TKD for 4 years but can't apply it in a real fight...why??? They just don't have the mindset...so killing techs won't work cause u don't have the mindset unless u're in the military or mafia or just willing to do it.

[rogue]

1. Most people teaching deadly techniques really don't know how to kill and never have come close to killing someone. And if they do and did they rarely advertise it, social stigma and all that.

2. The main point of self defense is to escape and evade not get into a drawn out fight, techniques that are good for LEO, SEALS or the UFC will possibly put you in a better position to get hurt than to survive an attack in a dark lonely place by yourself.

3. Marketing. Telling people that the techniques are deadly will make them feel cool and also keep most of them from trying them out only to find that they've learned a load of BS.

"Dude (dudette?), think about why the martial arts were created in the first place. To protect the weak against the strong. And in most cases, the strong had swords, spears, knives, etc; and the peasants had none."

And this resulted in many dead peasants, still does last time I checked. I'm really surprised at you Tiger, I thought you'd know better than to say something like that.

[Asia]

How many pple here have HONESTLY killed someone?
It is something that I wouldn't wish on anyone. But if need be I will doe it .
Many of the holders of such "deadly" techniques couldn't handle to ramifications of such and action, I am not just talking about the legal ones. Those who are too willing to do so or act as like it doesn't effect them I would never teach MA too. But that is my personal beleif. Train to kill so you know how NOT to kill but be able to kill if need be.


Dude (dudette?), think about why the martial arts were created in the first place. To protect the weak against the strong. And in most cases, the strong had swords, spears, knives, etc; and the peasants had none.

NO this is not correct MA was created for the sole purpose of defeating the opponent. Self defense, spiritual enlightment, etc are after thoughts. MA do NOT have the obligations to protect the weak from the strong. It is nice that pple feel this way and I preach this to students but it is not a cosmic law or lgically correct. And history has shown us that theo ones doing the primary slaughtering were MArtist. Peasents did not create martial arts the ADAPTED it to serve them.

[red5angel]

Matt, I would like to take African tigers example a little further. I joined the Marines not because I wanted to kill. I just wanted to see the world really, before I went to college. I knew though that to 'defend' my country I may be called upon to kill and because of this I was thankful I was taught to kill.
The same is with my martial training, I dont want to kill, I may not have to kill, but if I do, I know how, and that makes me feel more comfortable in my daily life. I walk some pretty scary neighborhoods, most of them right after Wing Chun class! I feel much saferwalking through them knowing what I do.

[Budokan]

You must always kill your enemy. Break his spirit, crush his ability to attack you and then dance over his limp and lifeless body. Then, enslave his children and collar his women to your bedpost.

Only in this way can you truly be a man.

[old jong]

We must KILL! KILL! KILL!...But only when we are facing an actively resisting opponent in a dynamic environment setting!;)

[Budokan]

Well, that goes without saying. Otherwise, you're not giving your opponent a decent chance.:)

[old jong]

We are not barbaric enough to use our skills on passively non-resisting opponents in a anti-dynamic environment,don't we?....;)

[Budokan]

Where's the fun in that? What kind of challenge is it to step out of an alley on a dark night as people are coming out of a movie theater and mug an 81-year old man? Rough him up until his false teeth fall out, slap him around until tears well up in his eyes as he realizes his complete and total helplessness at your merciless hands? Take his money he was going to use to buy a birthday present for his granddaughter--the only bright spot in his otherwise lonely and miserable existence? And then leave him slumped against the brick wall, a crumpled and terrified man who will now find out if his Depends will live up to their guarantee of protection after all....? Where's the sport in that, I ask you?

Uh, not that I've ever done anything like that, you understand. (Walks away, whistling and looking at clouds)

[rovere]

If we are talking about serious training, then I would say that "learning to kill" has several implications.

1. The moral obligation that stems from an understanding of what you are capable of doing -- and choose or not choose to do.

My teacher once told me that the fight is the fight for your life. if your life isn't in danger then killing is not necessary. If it is a fight for your life, then you do what you must. However, you must aslo know whether or not you are willing to give your life to take someone else's (i.e., You could be killed too.)

2. The reduction of fear in yourself. Fear can cause many responses from over-reaction to inaction. The idea of training to extremes is so that you have an understanding of the worst possible situations you can be confronted with and still survive (or learn how to think to survive). Once these extremes are understood then everything else (i.e., all other confrontations) can be clearly seen in perspective.

Re: not so serious response to the scenario of the 81 year old man coming out of the movie theatre. If it had been my teacher at 81, the assailant would have been 'bagged and tagged'. (I never heard my teacher whistle though so you'd have to change the ending.)

[Mr.Sleazy]

When discussing these "certain-death kill with one single pinky finger to the carotid ganglion" type techniques, I think it should be pointed out that all people know how to kill one another. There is no big secret.

If someone can manage to put their opponent in a situation where he/she is defenseless, killing them is not difficult as many murderers know - choking, bludgeoning, kicking to the head, curbing etc... These are not secret MA techniques. The human species is really pretty fragile. Not much of a point, but important I think.

A second important point is that legally, you are allowed to defend yourself with reasonable force if you are threatened. That means, if someone calls you a siss and threatens your ego, the "single tiger pinky up the nose to the brain" technique is out. You are legally allowed to respond by insulting THEIR ego. If they are trying to kill you, then responding in kind is OK. And intent to kill is assessed as how a reasonable person would perceive the situation - a paranoid person who thinks everyone is trying to kill them may not respond with deadly force.

But can't we all just get along?

[Budokan]

"But can't we all just get along?" --Mr. Sleazy

No, sorry, we can't. We are only allowed to beat up and humiliate each other on this forum.:)

[joedoe]

Yeah Budokan, you stinking JMA practitioner :D

[old jong]

...MY GUITAR WANTS TO KILL YOUR MAMA?...See?...If Frank Zappa said this; it means it is o.k. to kill! :cool:

[rogue]

Hey Budokan, when are you going to take up a martial art?:D

[Budokan]

ROFLMAO!!

I dunno. Maybe someday I'll do a *real* MA other than my impractical shotokan. :D

I'm tired of all this playing around and pretending to be a martial artists. That's it. It's TAE BO for me! But, first, I have to buy a round trip ticket to Sweden for that sex change and complimentary injections of estrogen...:)

[rogue]

Tae Bo is ancient history Budokan, The new way of getting a great workout is by taking Romeo Gracy's Brazillian Jujitsusize!

No jumping, punching or kicking, just a sweaty overweight Brazillian who'll either put you in his guard or mount you (your choice) for $100 for 15 min.

He doesn't have his own school yet or even a kimono for that matter, but works out on an old mattress behind the dumpsters at Rorians place.

Tell him Neil sent you.

[wu_de36]

wait, you mean martial techniques might just have the ability to freakin kill someone? I thought it was all silk pajamas and floppy swords! :rolleyes:

I think it is a little hasty for you to say you don't need to know how to kill. That's the funny thing about skills, sometimes you don't know you need them until you need them.

And when it comes time where you NEED to know how to kill someone, you're certainly not going to be in a position to get a refresher course first.

I don't own a car, but I can change a flat. I don't puncture tires just so I can change them.

Same thing with understanding that martial skills can be deadly. That doesn't mean I intentionally put myself into those sorts of situations. Truth told, I would prefer never to be there. If I'm stuck there, I want to be able to get out.

[bamboo_ leaf]

If you are in one of those situations either you will be killed or not. Many are caught in these with out any type of MA training and they survive. Some with MA training don’t.
I think much of it is a question of sprit. Not the kind where you overcome the other but the kind used to overcome ones self.
Remove inner fears (the fear of death) have a clear idea (intent/will) and most things can be done.

We are seeing this in the middle east now and saw it used
on 9-11.

[Jimbo]

Regarding killing techniques, realistically, it's hard to say that if you learn this or that technique that you can kill someone. Unless the person teaching you has actually used it to kill someone, which in the vast majority of cases he hasn't.

On the other hand, it's only common sense that certain moves can cause death or extreme injury if carried to their ultimate end, whether or not they are labeled "killing tech's." Whether or not you can kill with it depends on too many variables...your mindset, your opponent(s), the situation, etc. People's ability to resist punishment varies. Some people will die from a solid slap in the face; others (esp. crazy or drugged-up/angry people) can take full-on strikes to the head from a baseball bat and keep on coming. So just because you learned a "killing tech" doesn't mean you can make it work as such.

Many untrained people have killed with their bare hands. Sometimes it's even happened by accident (i.e., I knew of a man who accidentally killed another in a fight by one punch).

For some people, a preoccupation with "killing tech's" might be a form of sociopathic behavior. Or they want to appear "bad." Similar to the mindset of certain people who train solely to be the biggest "bad@$$" in the world, to have the "awe, respect and fear" of all those around him/her.

That said, having the *potential* ability to kill through training in itself is not a bad thing, and in fact only makes sense. A real situation on the street or wherever is NOT some contest where it's required to make an even matchup. In fact, if you are attacked, the attacker(s) already have an advantage in readiness, often size, surprise, and probably numbers as well. If you have the mindset of being kind and merciful to your attacker(s), it does not matter how many killing moves you may have learned, you will be "playing by the rules" while your attacker will not, and you will not be very effective.

Jim

[Kristoffer]

wait, lemme get this straight..... Killing is "bad"? :confused:

[TenTigers]

Many of the self-defense applications in our system have fatal strikes, breaking of the joints, striking to soft tissue, etc. Many people ask why? "That's not self-defense, that's murder!" My reasons are as follows:
First, we have turned away many people who have applied to our school because they either had an attitude problem, or were of a nature that we felt would be a risk to teach. We have a moral and ethical responsibility as to who we teach.
Second, over time and commercialization, many of the systems have been watered down and again we have a responsibility to keep our system intact, not water it down for the sake of making an extra buck. If that were the case, I would close my doors.
Third, we take it for granted that our opponent is bigger, stronger, more skilled, and more in numbers than ourselves, add to that equation the fact that anyone who is attacking you is either high on drugs, alcohol, adreneline, or rage, and the stakes go up.
Fourth, I always say, "Sure, if your grandma is sitting at the kitchen table sipping tea, and you slam her in the base of the skull with a forearm shot-grandma's dead.But, your opponent is moving, and trying to hit you. Boxing matches go 12 rounds, many strikes do not land with perfect focus.Otherwise a knockout occurs. A potentially fatal strike landing with insufficient focus is still going to be effective.
Fifth, we give you more than you need, because we don't want you to get in the "Oh Sh!t scenerio" -which is, you have a one shot self defense technique, and you miss, or it doesn't land properly. (oops, he moved!) You must have backup. Nobody says you have to continue striking if you have accomplished your goal-which is to save your life. Self-defense technique is like birth control, better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Sixth, I always teach restraint. I am never macho, and will not tolerate this attitude in my school. Don't confuse macho bravado with discussions on reality. In a self-defense situation, you try to talk your way out, if this doesn't work, walk your way out. If this doesn't work run, and if you can't run-fly. But when your back is against the wall, you are in for alot more than a fat lip. Trust me. Once you get out of school, fights are very, very dangerous. People die. I have seen a group of about five (not to be mentioned patch-holders) thugs surround one guy and beat him up real messy. Whenthe crowd cleared, he was on his hands and knees, and one guy just went in for the field goal with a pair of cowboy boots to his face. I was 15 when I saw this and it stays with me. Seeing a "Brooklyn Smile" is a sight you will never forget either. If I gave my students less, I would never forgive myself. I feel responsible for the fact that I trained them. (Dang, I have alot of guilt-must be the Jew in me)
My feeling is if you are studying a martial art, and the techniques aren't deadly-then i t's probably some made up system, Traditional arts were developed through life and death struggles, tested on battlefields, not in safe, warm an' fuzzy commercial studios. Better save that money you were going to spend on your next belt-test and invest in some running shoes, and medical insurance.

[David Jamieson]

why are we taught to kill?

It comes down to understanding Yin and Yang or the inherent dualism that is the state of pretty much all of our perceptions of the world.

One cannot define dark without knowing light is a small example.

Besides, if you are undertaking training in Kungfu and all you learn is how to kill, then your training is incomplete imo. Kungfu is wholistic and not just the martial arts aspect. It is intelligence, character, will, constitution, mercy and the myriad of other things that make a person a complete person.

Kungfu releases your fuller potential as a human being.

peace