Bong Sao in professional boxing!!!

[straight blast]

I watched a world title fight today on cable. I'm not sure what the name of the guy was (it was something "boy") but I noticed that when the other guy who was quite a bit bigger and also a southpaw threw a huge hook "boy" would take it on the pinky finger side of his forearm and as the force came through he would corkscrew his arm into a bong sao and neatly deflect the punch.

He then tended to straight punch the other guy in the face with a horizontal fist. This strategy was most effective, and what was most interesting was it appeared the guy was just doing it reflexively. It didn't always work, but it did the vast majority of times. I have never heard of this technique being taught in boxing (though nothing surprises me) and wondered if anyone else had.

He lost the fight unfortunately due to a cut on his face. I remember somebody on this forum (I think it was the WC forum) slagging off at bong sao's and saying that they were ineffective and useless. I am happy to say that this boxer has restored my faith in it.

Though it irks me that even though he had absolutely no form (due to the fact he had never trained WC!) his bong sao was really good. Some of us train for ages and don't get the hang of it! Oh well, more motivation for training now that I have seen it successfully applied in the ring :D

[Merryprankster]

Yes, it's taught. Of course, it's not called bong sao. I don't really think it's called anything. Watch for it more often, especially when a boxer uses a more horizontal looking guard against some punches and then counter punches. It's good for getting inside, especially against a looping hook.

And as far as his form being horrible--well, it worked. Maybe things that are being used on actively resisting opponents in a dynamic environment simply don't look as pretty as they "should." Shocking, that.

[old jong]

I feel that you are a nice person and I appreciate your comments but!...These overdone lines about "Dynamic environment" and the famous " actively resisting opponent" are starting to really get on my nerves!!!What do you think Wing Chun guys practice?...Patty cake?...When I practice or teach, I punch "actively" and, I defend in a very effective "resisting manner"!...It is a very dynamic environment simply because you have to perform your Bong right or you get hit!...I will control my punches if someone is not ready yet with a specific technique but,when I feel he can do it, I punch harder.
Does that sound like doing flowery moves while tiptoing barefeet in the tulips to you?...;)

[Nichiren]

My favorite subject; The bong-sau :D

I almost never use it during sparring, only in chi-sao. Is this true for anyone else?

/Cheers

[old jong]

I understand! Bong sau works so much better in fighting than in sparring! ;) It is not very good if you don't stick to an opponent like it is generaly done in sparring! ;)

[Nichiren]

Old Jong: Touche!!! :p

We probably sparr to much at my kwoon. Not that much hard-core fighting. Mostly 2-step attack-counter situation fighting.

/Cheers

[yuanfen]

wing chun concepts are built around a deep understanding of human movement. So lots of hand shapes including bong like deflections in boxing or the tan sao in the beggars hand can be found. But wing chun is STRUCTURALLY different from boxing and wrestling on how shapes of motion are energized. Lots of things look similar but are not the same. Madonna is no Marilyn.

[Sharky]

yeah, cos the boxing and wrestling motions are similar huh?

bong sau is easier if you have huge gloves on to catch the strike, to be honest.

there is a lot of parrying in boxing

[burnsypoo]

bong sau will be what you want it to be.

but if it's so "useless", then why is it one of the three "Seeds" of wing chun? And why then does it have a whole form showing it off?

To say that the use of bong sau is only good in Chi Sau is a pretty limited view, IMO.

[Mutant]

I've found that bong sau (& tan sau, etc) can work well with boxing gloves on against a boxer or other styles, structurally and mechanically they are the same. But the sensitivity, sticking, wrist turning and alot of the subleties and speed are dulled if not negated, so it does not have all the full advantages it could without gloves on. Of course i have not fough a champion level boxer, but then i am not the most experienced and talented wing chun player either.
These differences do nessesate some big adjustments, at least for me. Trapping still works, but it is real hard to stick and follow, and against someone fast, it can leave me too open. The short power, efficiency, and combined defense/offence seems like it can be an used to an advantage, but I'm still playing with it trying to figure how to use it best in the ring.....Thats just my personal experience, still a big work in progress to try to integrate. Yes i know the arguement that it could develop bad wing chun technical habits, but there is also much to be gained from this type of competition and cross training, imho.

[Merryprankster]

Old Jong--

Easy big guy. You missed the point.

I can execute a picture perfect double leg on a person when we are doing takedown drills. Put a guy in front of me who is "not playing pattycakes," as you put it, and while the basic structure of the double leg remains, it's just not going to look as pretty. That's all there is to it. Oh sure, every now and then you'll land one that's worthy of a photo shoot, but most of the time, no.

All I'm saying is that what something "ideally," looks like is not necessarily how it turns out, visually, or sometimes even structurally, even though the GOAL was accomplished, when you start actually trying to beat on each other.

So I'm not suggesting that WC guys don't whack each other around. I'm suggesting that in free-sparring, the variables introduced frequently make something "look less than the ideal." When, in fact, it worked and was applied just fine.

[old jong]

I get your idea!...It's just that I always foam from the mouth and grow spikes on my back when I see things like ...Resisting opponent, meditationnal benefits of Kung Fu etc!...But don't worry about me. I listen to some Mozart and I get back to my own self in no time!...;)
Am I becomming grumpy or something?... ;)

[Merryprankster]

Well, I get my hackles up when I see "2-step attack/counter drills," not immediately followed up by "and then we beat on each other," so it's all fair :)

[old jong]

Give me a hug Buddy!:D
We can be friends ,just like in "Ennemy mine"!!! ;) Let's worship Micky Mouse together!;)

[Mutant]

To elaborate more on what i was saying above....

Actually the stucture is NOT the same, upon further analysis. The wrist angle is different with wrist wraps on, so the muscle quality and angle is not quite the same for bong sau. Also the gloves dull and slow the impact. The gloves also add approx 12-14 oz to the hands, so the transition from bong sau to tan sau is slightly off. The springy quality is greatly diminshed cause of these factors. These speed and spring-energy sapping factors do effect the techniques. But again, there are certain elements that still do work and are useful. Practicing wing chun and other kung fu boxing with the equiptment on does help to adjust and minmalize the handicap of gloves and other safety devices...I would definately recommend traing with the equiptment on before you step into the ring and are caught off guard by the awkwardness.

[anerlich]

"The wrist angle is different with wrist wraps on, so the muscle quality and angle is not quite the same for bong sau. "

Mate, you are speaking for yourself and only some others. TWC (and I believe Gu Lao and HFY) do not bend the wrist of the bon arm. I can do a perfect bon or tan sao with my hands wrapped, though transitioning to fook is indeed problematic.

I agree with the prankster re precision under pressure. I'd be reluctant to criticise someone effectively using a bon lacking in technical excellence in a pro boxing match, unless I'd managed to pull off a perfect bon effectively myself in the same arena.

Read Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting" sometime. There are many similarities with WC (or TWC at least) IMO.

[Mutant]

In Gu Lao the wrist is bent, fingers forward, relaxed. Don't know about other styles of wing chun, as thats the only method i've learned, traditional Gu Lao (turning style). And it does get altered slightly...I'm not saying its completely different, my statement was quite the opposite, that i believe bong sau does work with wraps and gloves on...just a bit different than the hand form i learned w/o gloves. It probably ends up being more like the version youre talking about which works just fine. At first I was saying it was the same, but then wrote the addendum to make note of some subtle differences I was thinking about afterwards.

Yeah, i still havent figured out how to best utilize fook sau with wraps/gloves on yet.... :confused:

[Sharky]

I have been taught at first, to bent the wrist in my bong.

At the last school i went to, they said this was bad, as the wrist can be locked/trapped/hurt.

I liked bending it, it was easier to turn into lap sau, when you "catch" the punch.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Back to the original question. Yes it is a bong sao!!! in Boxing it is called A Roll Away. And yes, I use it quite effectively in sparring. If you want to see more about this, look in Haislett's Boxing book. I believe they have reprinted this classic, and probably available at Amazon.com.
FYI, they also have pak sao, fook sao and a modified Tan Sao. just by different names.
Remember that western Martial arts were just as advanced and scientific as eastern martial arts, they even include their own version of Dit Da Jow.
Many old texts exist here in Toronto in the University of Toronto Library called Robards Library. This is the library that they based the library in the movie "The Name of the Rose" on. ( Umberto Echo attended this University)
Hope this Helps!!!

[Nichiren]

Great Roy, thanks... :D

[Roy D. Anthony]

You're quite welcome. Sorry it wasn't my usual short answer.LOL

[Shooter]

I'm suggesting that in free-sparring, the variables introduced frequently make something "look less than the ideal." When, in fact, it worked and was applied just fine

Well said, Merryprankster. Does that same rationale apply to "identifiable kung fu maneuvers?" :)

[old jong]

Yes Roy!
I recently read about 19th century european kind of kung Fu looking boxing martial arts! Could they be the ancestors of modern western boxing?...
They were relying more on parrying and deflecting techniques than boxing who uses more weaving and footwork.(generaly speaking)
It would be easy to find lots of websites on these subjects on : Western or european martial arts.

[Roy D. Anthony]

You may be right. However in a recent issue of a Karate Journal, they featured a 2 part article about western boxing and how they had takedowns just like in wrestling, and very similar to Hsing Yi and Pakua takedowns. In old western Martial art texts they show many similar techniques. In fact fencing as it stands today, is very much like one armed chi sao.

[stonecrusher69]

I have an old book on western booking written about 75 years ago.The boxing then used no gloves and had low kicks to the knee like WC.To bad western boxing turn into a sport if it did 'nt I'm sure it would be as advance as WC by now.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Roy D. Anthony
Remember that western Martial arts were just as advanced and scientific as eastern martial arts, they even include their own version of Dit Da Jow. Roy, I seem to remember that you told me boxing was not a martial art, only a sport. What's up with that?

Matrix

[Merryprankster]

I don't know shooter---do shaolin longfist techniques look like a Karateka's reverse punch?

I can identify a cross and a jab--a backfist looks nothing like those two.

But, your ideal backfist doesn't look like the one you whack the guy with in a fight, necessarily :)

[dzu]

In my Gu Lao line, the wrist is relaxed during bong sau and is not consciously bent so that the fingers are facing forwards. The hand is more or less straight, but the fingers are not tightened such that the bong sau is stiff.

Dzu

[Mutant]

dzu,
That sounds like the same way we are taught.
My above description was admittedly lacking as far as creating an accurate description of our bong sau. The fingers don't point out straight, the whole hand and wrist sort of droop and are relaxed. The angle between the palm and forarm is not sharp, nowhere near as 90 degrees, but more like 150-160 degrees (i just happen to have a protractor handy and thats my quick estimate), but it doesnt seem exactly straightened either. I'm don't claim to be an expert in this style. I would be psyched to learn more about Gu Lao, I never hear or see much about this style. Sifu Henry Mui brought this style to Boston from China. Are there many other Gu Lao schools out there?