Hsing Yi and Ba Gua

[friday]

can ppl tell me what differentiates between these two internal styles? what are the principles of each style? how many forms? type of training?

thanks

[jon]

Hi friday
thats a complicated question as it depends a LOT on linage
Bagua is typified by using circular force and active footwork.
Xing Yi is typified by using linear force and secure footwork.

The forms vary from linage to linage and in my Bagua we only have the one long form. From this you can then break the system down into many smaller forms and even various animals if you wish.
XingYi tends to consist of many short sets as opposed to single long sets like Tai Chi or Bagua.
I cant be to specific as im not a Bagua expert and i dont study Xing Yi. Still thats a brief overview.
Hope it helps

[Ray Pina]

From my limited understanding, what I have learned from my master in the past 14 months is this (but please note I am not taught through form, but theory and application, and material is not always seperated as this and that, just an idea that works):

Hsing-I, and to me, when I think of Hsing-I I think Drilling Fist and Splitting fist, is a very direct aproach to fighting. It utilizes core hand/forearm positions that are inherantly strong by their shape, by the muscles being utilized. I argued with someone here about this the other day, that tricep power is rediculously weak. SHoulder, upper back, latts, power, that is what is being used. Drilling fist simply deflects imcoming blows outward and downward by it wedge shape all the while attacking inward. This is coupled with ones body weight through driving off the compressed back leg/hip.

Splitting fist comes off of internal two hand shielding, tremendous downward power opens and pins.

But here is where the cross over occurs. That downward splitting fist is force against force. So if you study Ba GUa, you will leanr from that two handed shielding, from the outside bridge, that you should drop the elbow as a fulcrum point, doint resist, and work the forearm/palm over as the other's frorce passed down where your bridge once was.

Rea;;y impossible to explian without photos of being there. As a writer, I hate to say impossible, but it would be time consuming.

One goes in like this ------->

The other blends and molds and goes where you tell it to go, only that when it get's there you won't be happy with the outcome.

[friday]

Thanks for the information, being a Pak Hok Pai student I have recently become particularly interested in the Taoist internal arts and appreciate the input that you are able to give me.

I have a few questions:

1. Jon your lineage in Ba Gua , has only one form? how long is it? how many techniques etc does it approximately consist of? what is your lineage?

2. EvolutionFIst how many forms does Hsing Yi have? how long do u think it would take to complete Hsing Yi?

3. a question for both of you, does your kung fu style have seated chi building through breathing (referred to in Cantonese as Dar Jor) and when do u commence such exercises? its not Ba Duan Jin (8 brocade)

any response to these questions will be appreciated.

thanks,

Friday

[Ray Pina]

To be honest, I don't know. It has never come up in the 14 months I've been training. My teacher doesn't teach that way.

I show up, and we get to work with a new principle or theory. The first 13 months had been familiarizing me with the way Ba Gua/Tai Chin keep a strong structure/shield, but give in to heavy force at the hip/waist if need be. Then principles of where the power should be coming from: back,shoulder, ect., we call it Beat/Tiger/eagle.

Then the different palm strikes, but also how and in what context they are used. Lot's of work.

About two or three months ago I was introduced to circle walking. The proper weigth shifting in stepping, which is really kicking. How to kick without being kicked. Be in position to hit but not be hit. Most recently we are focusing on absorbiing kicks. Being able to manilupuate your lats to cover your lower, floating rib to aid in absorbtion. This is still lower level in a sense, where I'm trainin to take a kick. But in a sense, that alleviates my hands to do what they should be doing, covering my head and beating someone.

Also learning kick defenses and counter attacks. Wicked stuff.

This is how I am taught. But I see sections of people doing forms and I can tell if they know what they are doing or not already, even though I don't know the form.

For example, many people walk the circle with their back hand held low, at the dantian. Wrong, that needs to be hend higher up. One, it crunched your one lung forces the other to expand more, work harder, strenghten, that's internal benefit. Two: who is blocking your throat if one hand is out and the other is down? That's two reasons why it must be up there.

Same with HSing-I. Lots of guys stomping the floor. Why? The power shouldn't be going into the floor, downward, but out into the person. So you should maybe feel the power of the steppuing but not here a stomping.

I like learning this way. In a few years we'll link everything together and then I can say I know the form. But I'd rather learn the function/principles so I can use them now.

I think my teacher is a smart man.

[Felipe Bido]

The 'standard' forms of Hsing Yi are the Five Element forms, the Linking Form, the 12 animals and the Mixed Form, but, depending on the school, or the teacher, there are many other forms, and variations.

For example, each element has different variations. Some schools teach them, some not. Each animal has its own variations, too. And adding to that, there are other forms, which are combinations of the basic ones, like 'Twelve Red Hammers' 'Eight Postures' 'Eight Characters', 'Combined Routine', etc. And the weapon forms, and two man forms are a whole different story :)

But the forms in Hsing Yi are not a "recollection of techniques", they are very much like "Power drills" and concepts of direction and force, like the fists combinations used in boxing.

How long it will take someone to complete the forms curriculum? It's up to the teacher and the student.

[Ray Pina]

Power drills and concept. Excellent. That pretty much sums it all up.

[brassmonkey]

the more forms the better

[jon]

Hi friday

I will do my best to answer your questions but bear in mind that im still a beginer myself.

"Jon your lineage in Ba Gua , has only one form?"
* Yes WE have only one form, Chang Jing Chao also created a combined form which uses XingYi as well. We dont practice this form and stick to his orginal which is purely Bagua. Single forms are quite commen in Bagua. Most styles that teach more have simply split a long form up into sections. We can do that to, then we have 8 forms :p

"how long is it? "
* Its 8 sections and each section usualy consists of several movements all done in circular patterns" Takes about 7 mins to go though relaxed and slower and about 4 if you go a bit faster.
Could proberly make it last longer or shorter depending on how fast you feel like going. Some sections i can burn though at a rate of knots where as others my body is still getting used to.
Either way im at the slow and steady phase for the next two years, then its fa-ging all the way. I am supposed to practice fast a little though and i demonstrate the set at speed and with some apparent power. Problem is my power is still external with only a tiny amount of internal, i need to flip that.

"how many techniques etc does it approximately consist of?"
* Some styles have 8 sections of 8 movements each making up a total of 64 and this is there 'advanced form'(read orginal form before they split it up). My style tends to have differing numbers in each change and some changes actualy even contain others for eg in 8 towards the end i will go into the last half of 6.
There is really unlimited techniques in Bagua as the style is really a method of powergeneration and mindset more than a set of exact techniques with exact uses. For eg many techniques can have totaly different ending or starting structures. There are also many repeted movements in the form. Its desigened to be broken up and put back together. Im encouraged now to let go of EXACT form structure and start working different things in together. I may start out in palm change 2 but finish with the last part of 4. Sounds kinda odd but it works a real charm. The bagua form takes the cake so far as far as intelligent forms go.
Everything else takes a back seat to Bagua in my humble opinion, if you have a good active mind and you already have some training behind you its like finding the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

"what is your lineage? "
* Ouch i was waiting for someone to ask me that, took me a while to get out of my sifu but i guess there is no harm in letting others know.
He is from two Bagua linages.
The first is his practical linage where he learnt to fight and the basics of the system the second is where he got most of his form from.

Dong Hai Chan - Chen Feng-Ming - Fu Chen Sung - My sifu - this was his initial training and he spent much time with FCS son who was his training partner and a friend of my sifus father. FCS was at this time an old man but he still taught my sifu in his own home and my sifu considers FCS his sifu and his son his sihing.

Second
Dong Hai Chaun - Chang Chau Tung - Chang Jing-Chaio - One of CJC senior students whos name i can NEVER remember - my sifu.
This sifu was a peking opera star and you can proberly already guess where this is leading.
The opera stars form was impecable but he was NOT a fighter, hence my sifu learnt form more though this sifu and then would go to FCS for fighting training. FCS was a very practical teacher and his form was actualy already very close to Chang Jing Chaos hence the comprimise suited everyone well. FCS was also a busy man and he didnt have a lot of time left on the earth when my sifu was training with him. Hence form was considered secondary and practical was always the go. Before any eyebrows get raised due to FCS being dead for comming on fifty years. My sifu started with him when he was fourteen. He has trained Bagua his whole life.
His Tai Chi linage is much simpler.
Yang Chen Fu - sifus grandfather - my sifus father (full time kf teacher all his life) - my sifu (also full time)

There is the full sworded details on my linage which im very proud of. I feel like a bit of git spilling my beans but what the heck its something i should not feel weird about telling people. Lucky its someone i respect who asked me :D




" a question for both of you, does your kung fu style have seated chi building through breathing (referred to in Cantonese as Dar Jor) and when do u commence such exercises? its not Ba Duan Jin (8 brocade) "
* Yes it does, it also does standing meditation.
That can come first or later, with us its part of our powergen training and as such we dont do a LOT of it for the first few years of practice.
Most training like this is encouraged at home, you stretch yourself, prepare yourself and build yourself at HOME. You come to class to learn and to apply.
Depends a bit though, im there everyday so he is more relaxed with my training than with others he only sees once or twise a month.


As a side note my sifu told me today a horrifing story involving himself and two bladed thugs who rolled him in Hong Kong. They did not come out of that situation well. My sifu was not even scratched. He was young then :D
You may also already know the story of his Belmore Park incident?
At his advanced age he ran down a much younger larger guy who once out of sight simply stopped, checked there was no one around and attempt to sucker punch my elderly sifu:mad: Sifu ducked under two punch attempts whilst issuing verbal warnings and eventualy the guy tried to run again, my sifu stepped around the side of him and struck his hips driving him into a wall. The guy then just sat there looking dumbfounded untill the police showed up.
hehe pretty cool story huh?

BTW i just reread this, sorry for the earbash dude, sometimes i just cant shut up when people ask me about my sifu or style. hehe take note!

[friday]

haha thanks jon no apologies necessary
u have given me some very interesting information and i look forward to meeting u.

[dwid]

No offense intended here, but you state some generalizations above that I would say are not necessarily supportable. See the Bagua Linear Forms thread, which I think illustrates really well the wide variations present in Bagua. The style I practice does not have one long form, nor is there any indication that the circles (advanced or basic) are broken up from what was once a longer form. There are 8 sets of 8 fighting techniques which make up the 64 total fighting sets, and these are separate from the circles. Anyway, I'm not trying to flame, but it's probably best in Bagua not to speak in generalities about how most styles do things, as there is way too much variation among the substyles, and you risk sounding like you are saying substyles that don't fit the pattern are inferior. I'm not implying that that is what you're trying to say, it's just easy to come off that way.

Friday:

In answer to your original question, the style I practice comes through Gao and Han Mu Sha. As I stated above, there are 64 fighting techniques, which are basically short, linear forms. There are 8 Fu Xi circles, which are really fundamental, qi gong-ish circles, 8 Chen Pan Ling circles, and a whole bunch of Guang Hua circles, which are the heart of the system. There are fundamentally 8 of these, but there are many variations on each of the eight, as the style comprises Gao's circles, Han's circles, and some that were added by their talented students. There is also standing meditations/posture training, qigong, two-man sets, push hands, etc... Essentially all the stuff you find in any complete internal system.

[jon]

Hi dwid
My intension was certainly NOT to imply that i had some kind of special Bagua or that our varient is the only one which is 'pure'. If ive come accross that way then i appologise as it was not my intension.
My citing the forms was really due to most linages having a '64' form which is both long and holds most of the systems power gen and practical theorys. I certainly am aware that many systems have more than one form but to my knowledge most of them are basicaly varients on there full 64. Still i do know this can always be different, the school up the road from us teaches 8 animal and they have a seperate form for each animal although they are again kept short and can be strung together.
I also see your point about being carefull how i come accross and that is my reason for posting this now. Again i realise that many linages are differenent but its just been my experience that many have a longer full form from which they then pull applications and various shorter 'sets'.
Still all just my experience and conjecture its in no way gospell.

Friday
Was great to meet you :) Your kung fu is very impressive.

[dwid]

It's cool. I didn't mean to sound aggressive myself.

Just wanted to see where you were coming from.

I appreciate your reply.

:D

[friday]

Hi Jon,

thanks for the compliment ...now u can tell me what u really thought haha ;)
anyway thanks for the opportunity to meet up with you and your sifu it was a pleasure. Your sifu is a great guy, full of energy and a real friendly character. it was great to see you practising your Ba Gua and Tai Chi although I am not very familiar with the internal arts i enjoyed it very much.
I look forward to meeting up with you again.

In my discussions in the past with sifus of various styles i was made aware of the "dar jor" i mentioned earlier that involves a seated meditation which develops the flow of chi around your body. Of particular interest was two which ruffly translates to smaller cycle and larger cycle (in cantonese - siu chen warn, dy chen warn, it also referred to by other names such as siu chou tin and dy chou tin)

in my discussions i was made aware of two interesting points. the first dar jor siu chen warn is quite safe but involves, as the name suggests the travelling of chi through a smaller cycle of the body's meridians, while the dy chen warn involves a larger cycle as well as philiosopical thinking on the theory of the cosmos, matter and the universe. the second one apparently if not done correctly can mean the practitioner will encounter side effects or bad results such as vomiting, hallucinations, nausea - these are referred to as "jou for yup mor".

does anyone practice these dar jor? or have any experience, knowledge? Ba Gua and Hsing Yi being internal arts i thought would probably include such training in the style.
thanks.

[friday]

hmmm...just checking is it that nobody knows what the heck i m talking about or is all secret stuff that u can't disclose :)

[jon]

friday
Hi friday im just responding due to your prompt, i simply dont really know enough to talk openly on such things but ill do my best with what limited knowledge i have on seated meditation.

For a start coming from a martial artists viewpoint seated meditation is actualy one of the 'highest' level of training. The practice is actualy much more difficault than standing mediation to do well. Our meditation involves sending the energy in spirals around the dan tian and then waving up the spine. This is much more easily accomplished standing than it is seated (at least properly). I also did a lot of mediation in Hung Ga ranging from standard breathing right though to astral mediation where you would imagine your body leaving the earth and going for a little bit of a star trek :)

I think what you discribe sounds like small and grand circulation in a strange way but im afraid again i simply dont know enough to give accurate infromation - only personal experience.

In my studys most meditation beyond the basic level breathing has to do with either sending the energy around a particular path timed with your breath or it has had a definate self indused trance like state to it.
That sounded REALLY esortric but its one DARN hard thing to explain, ive actualy done a LOT more med in Hung than i have in my internal studys.

[friday]

hi jon,

i wouldve responded earlier to your post but for that few days where KFO wouldn't let u post anything.
anyway, wat u are describing is what i am referring to. the information u gave me is similar to wat i know about it. i was wondering whether u could describe your experience with the meditation that u have done in your hung gar. Thanks for your response becos it seems not many ppl either know wat i m talking about or mayb cannot discuss this topic online :) (who knows?)

Thanks,

Friday