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DrunkenMunky
03-27-2002, 06:37 PM
I've been taking wing chun for around 4 months now and I learned SLT but I'm having problems using the techniques while sparring. I feel like I'm just going in there and throwing wild punches.

Now someone told me that if I pratice the form enough that it will be like second nature to use it in sparring. Am I sparring too early? Any good drills to improve my techniques?

old jong
03-27-2002, 07:02 PM
I can understand!...Are you practicing 2 men drills to get used to the moves? Sparring seems a little premature to me after only 4 months.

Ars vitae
03-27-2002, 07:31 PM
I wouldn't worry to much at the moment about using your wing chun for sparing, after only 4 months. You've learnt the basic tools of wing chun from the first set, which isn't really a form in the traditional sense more of an encyclopedia of knowledge. It's now when you get to do partner drills, that you'll learn some possiblities for application.

Sharky
03-27-2002, 08:17 PM
Hi. I din't think that wing chun practitioners should be sparring til at least like 6 months.

Regardless, my advice is this - don't go into the sparrign session with the attitude to WIN. It is a training tool, to make things WORK. All the things in the form should "work". If it's nopt working, you need to look at what you're doign and ask yourself why it isn't working?

muhammad ali, when he sparred, used to often "lose". What i mean is, he would confine himself only to using techniques that he felt needed work, or were weak. You need that attitude, and let go of ego.

Sparring with an advanced student or sifu is often worth 10 sparrign sessions with someone of your own ability. Try to get in there with them! :)

Cheers

yuanfen
03-27-2002, 09:19 PM
You have to internalize wing chun before you can use it.
Sparring now will just bring back and reinforce your old habits.

Alpha Dog
03-28-2002, 06:49 AM
Under controlled circumstances, with someone who as Sharky said can stop things and point out where your mistakes w/rt the use of Wing Chun occurred, sparring is a good thing; otherwise it's a waste, as Joy said.

See, everyone is right! What a great place this is.

yuanfen
03-28-2002, 08:23 AM
Right on whipping hand!! You are really an Alpha.

Matrix
03-29-2002, 08:15 AM
It's far too soon to spar, in my opinion. OK, so you've "learned SLT". What does that mean? You have started to learn about structure and the center-line, etc. What about Chi Sao, Chung Chi, Foon Sao? And there's much more. Have you learned any footwork? SLT is the Beginning Idea, and the foundation for the system. I think it's a great leap from there to sparring.

Don't be in a rush to spar. As you've already experienced, the results are not taking you where you want to go. Be patient, it will happen for you. :)

Matrix

wingchunalex
03-29-2002, 10:32 AM
you can't learn to sparr by doing slt. you have to do things that get you used to punched being thrown at you and mixing up your techniques. practicing your blocks and attacks with footwork can help with sparring. but prescribed drills are what helps the most. chisau can help you learn to apply your techniques, but drills help you develople appropriate responses.

Botha
03-31-2002, 11:51 AM
DrunkenMunkey,

You don't learn the slt without reason. After you learned to do the slt in the right way, you have to know what you have learned. This is the reason that after learning slt, you have to learn the applications of the form. Every movement has it's purpose, at least should have, so you can train these movements in "real" situations.
This is the way to learn and understand wingchun. Have you learned the first form and it's applications then you go on to the second form. Many applications of the movements in the second form have to do with chisao, so after learning this form you start chisao. The same with the other forms.

stuartm
03-31-2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Matrix
It's far too soon to spar, in my opinion. OK, so you've "learned SLT". What does that mean? You have started to learn about structure and the center-line, etc. What about Chi Sao, Chung Chi, Foon Sao? And there's much more. Have you learned any footwork? SLT is the Beginning Idea, and the foundation for the system. I think it's a great leap from there to sparring.

Don't be in a rush to spar. As you've already experienced, the results are not taking you where you want to go. Be patient, it will happen for you. :)

Matrix

I totally agree - SLT is not the time to spar ! In fact, as a teacher, you should be able to tell when your student is ready to spar. Chum kiu level is the minimum at which to spar - without knowing how to gain contact and to follow/retreat - how can you spar??

Lets also remember that witout good footwork, and without experiencing a strong attack through good quality drilling - then sparring will be merely throwing your arms around in the air. Once you have a decent understanding of CK,and mentally you are up for it - then that is the time to spar.

Dont rush, your development in WC with the aid of a good teacher, will evolve naturally.

Regards, Stu

Matrix
03-31-2002, 04:47 PM
It looks like we're in violent agreement here :D

A good analogy might be when someone learns english (or any other language for that matter). Once you have learnt the alphabet (equivalent to SLT) do not expect to dash out an write a novel. You still need to learn to spell words, starting with the simplest and most common ones, build a vocabulary, then add grammar, sentence structure and learn to develop a plot etc.

It may sound daunting, but as in all good things, it comes with time.

Matrix

KenWingJitsu
04-02-2002, 01:35 AM
*sigh*

If you want to learn to spar using wing chun techniques. Go to a wing chun school that teaches you to spar. Such as the Wng Tsun branch!!!!

They actually have a program called Lot-sau (sparring drill). I think that speaks for itself. You will NEVER learn to spar doing SLT. EVER.

Most wing chun will NEVER lead you to be able to spar. Because most wing chun ....sucks...

Change to WT. You'll learn real application & you'll lear "isolated or Progressive sparring"

yuanfen
04-02-2002, 06:44 AM
You will NEVER learn to spar doing SLT.Ever.
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Profundities in fortune cookies!!

JasBourne
04-02-2002, 07:06 AM
SLT is the foundation. Build upon that with drills that practice flowing from one movement to another. Build upon that by practcing these drills with another person. Build upon that by learning basic chi sao techniques and defenses with another person. Build upon that by practicing using these techniques in a freeflowing manner with another person (chi sao). Build upon that by sparring lightly. Build upon that by practcing dummy. Build upon that by progressively decreasing the limitations to the sparring. Build upon that by sparring other styles and schools. Build upon that by learning SLT again.

Welcome to wing chun. :D

Sabu
04-02-2002, 07:59 PM
What is this fascinating with sparring? Sparring is such a detriment to one's training... I do not understand why people feel the need to do it... Why they don't see how unrealistic the notion is...? This in not what we train for.... This is disappointing to me.

And Hathi III...

Sharky
04-02-2002, 08:31 PM
Joke?

KenWingJitsu
04-02-2002, 10:43 PM
"What is this fascinating with sparring? Sparring is such a detriment to one's training... "

Er...dude.....you're kidding right? HAHAHA. If you're serius, how on earth do you expect to kow if your training works against a REAL opponent who is trying to REALLY hurt you?

If you have some magical way of doing this without sparring, I'd love to hear it. Thoery doesn't cut it homes.

ATENG
04-03-2002, 12:30 AM
sabu is a funny man. or at least i hope he's being funny....

yuanfen
04-03-2002, 08:01 AM
Think about what you mean by sparring? The answer in large part
is in the meaning of the question. Dancing with gloves on?
Lots of jkd folks to work out with!

Sabu
04-03-2002, 08:19 AM
Though I am a very funny guy, this time I am not trying.

"Dancing with gloves on" as yuanfen put it, is the joke. It's as ridiculous as a circus elephant.

rogue
04-04-2002, 03:11 PM
Care to explain the "dancing with gloves on" thing? When you spar how do you do it?

My preference is bare knuckle/no pads.

yuanfen
04-04-2002, 03:29 PM
1. single hand chi sao of various kinds. 2. double hand chi sao of various kinds. 3. Lop sao timing work 4. Moving around with proper footwork (not bouncing around))4. Controlled attacks in chi sao- control does not mean tensing or holding back...just use differing degrees of power
5. slow attacks from asking hand distance 6. then when proper
self controls are in place- gor sao- no set patterns- no gloves.
By that time one has learned much about the details of the hand
notions, the structure, the feet, footwork, disaince, entry, exit, turning, recovering, proper energy conservation, lines, positioning
among many other goodies. I can NOT speak for others.

gnugear
04-04-2002, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by rogue
Care to explain the "dancing with gloves on" thing? When you spar how do you do it?

My preference is bare knuckle/no pads.

That's the way we do it. Athough we tend to use more open hand strikes than bare knuckles;)

tnwingtsun
04-04-2002, 04:36 PM
I wouldn't go so far to say that "Because most wing chun ....sucks... "
Because IMHO it does not.


But then again I've only tasted Duncan Leung's and LT's WT(both German and American).

As far as WT's structured "Lat-Sao" programs go I think for learning purposes they are second to none(IMHO) for the student to progress.
The are set up to program at first yet leave room for the student to be dynamic as time goes by.

But sometimes the structure of the programs can fade depending
on the teacher and students detacation(thats where you get bad WT/WC/VT).

I agree that the topic starter is wanting to run before he can even
think about crawling.

Shop around for a school that lets you progress the right way,if they want you to spar so early then it sounds like you need to look more.

I'm not plugging WT as the best,frankly I'm so tired of all of the bickering between all the lines(Yip's and others) I've stopped for the most part
coming to this forum or others b/c of the infighting,and that goes for the other Southern System I spent alot of time in.

Its just dam silly,I may be going off on a tangent here but its been said before and it needs to be said again,over and over.


WT-GOOD/some bad

VT-GOOD/some bad

WC-GOOD/some bad

Theres some great info on this forum from all camps,stick around and you'll see where to get that info and who it comes from.

If ya got the time,make the most of it,thats whats this is all about..............Right???????

DrunkenMunky
04-05-2002, 02:46 AM
Hey everyone thanks for all your replys. I was in class the other night and these two guys were sparring with each other and it looked more like they were just swinging at each other as hard as they could, kinda like a boxing match. So I'm taking all of your guys advice and doing more two man drills and I'm just going to wait until I know I'm ready to handle sparring.

londoner2001
04-05-2002, 11:19 AM
I think it was rogue thst said he spars bare knuckle with no pads. If you do then you must be an awful fighter, anyone that spar like that either doesn't engage in contact or is rubbish. Any decent puncher would leave someone knocked out and after repeated exposure to this bare knuckle fighting brain damage or at the worst death. The way to spar and to erase fear of combat is to put on a helmet full padding double mouth gaurd and semi contact gloves and just go in full oanctact like a real fight, then you get conditioned to fighting well. Don't do it every day though or you will have no brianc ells left!

gnugear
04-05-2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by DrunkenMunky
Hey everyone thanks for all your replys. I was in class the other night and these two guys were sparring with each other and it looked more like they were just swinging at each other as hard as they could, kinda like a boxing match. So I'm taking all of your guys advice and doing more two man drills and I'm just going to wait until I know I'm ready to handle sparring.

Hmm... that doesn't sound very wing chun- like. The hardness sounds more like JKD street tactics.

rogue
04-08-2002, 02:45 PM
Londoner2001,

"I think it was rogue thst said he spars bare knuckle with no pads."
Correct

"If you do then you must be an awful fighter,"
I'm not pretty and I'm not great, but I'm not bad. I've done OK for myself in the dojo, dojang and street.

"anyone that spar like that either doesn't engage in contact or is rubbish."
I have doctor bills and blood stains on my gi to prove the contact. Here's the way we do it, full hard contact to "safe" areas like the chest, around the shoulder blades(advanced students), arms, thigh. Light to medium contact to the rest. Spine, throat, groin, side of knee and bladder are off limits. Most common injuries are to the eyes (though rare), ribs, shins and hands all of which I've broken, sprained or generally mashed up. Most people are taken out with a hit to the solar plexus. Students have the option to spar softer if they wish, and it's bad form for an advanced rank to beat up on the lower.

"Any decent puncher would leave someone knocked out and after repeated exposure to this bare knuckle fighting brain damage or at the worst death."
We're not headhunters. Have you ever punched someone in the head with all your strength? Half your strength? If not try it, if you can't find a friend dumb enough get a friend to wear a motorcycle helmet and punch that. If you can't do that try a coconut.
Also where are the major targets in WC? Are the hands held high or somewhere between shoulder level and mid torso?

From the kung fu online ezine...
"Many fighters broke a knuckle with a punch that would end a fight by modern rules. Thirty seconds later they were facing a refreshed opponent and a broken knuckle. This led to a great deal of body punching, grappling and long fights of attrition."

and

"The Queensbury Rules were always presented as safer than bareknuckle boxing, ... The absence of grappling stopped a lot of bone injuries, and the padded gloves produced less facial blood, however, the same protection for the hands allowed for more power head punches with less damage to the hands leading to increased brain trauma.

Full text here...
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/2_2/boxing.html

"The way to spar and to erase fear of combat is to put on a helmet full padding double mouth gaurd and semi contact gloves and just go in full coanctact like a real fight, then you get conditioned to fighting well."

No you get conditioned to fighting in a padded suit. Do you wear pads when doing your forms? Wooden dummy training? Leaving the house? While a good part of training, padding can lead to a false sense of what your body can and cannot take in the way of punishment. Hitting a padded head with your padded hand is different than hitting a bare head bare handed. I know what kind of damage I can take and still keep my wits about me and compensate to finish a fight because I've experienced it.
It's more mental than physical.

"Don't do it every day though or you will have no brianc ells left!"
I do this kind of sparring 3 - 5 times a week for at least one half hour per session. Sometimes it's light, more times it's hard especially around belt testing time. Mostly it's somewhere in between. We're training many things when we spar, but we're not kidding ourselves that we're simulating a street fight or even a good kickboxing match. It's conditioning of the body and mind and that's something that's important to surviving any kind of fight.

Cheers.

yuanfen
04-08-2002, 03:21 PM
Here I was trying to stir up some actual conversation in a wise @ss sort of way. I did a real beauty over on the WC forum by just asking a question about sparring. Somehow MerryPrankster got sucked into that one.
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Interesting trolling!

rogue
04-08-2002, 08:17 PM
And that's exactly what was meant. Don't read into it what's not there.

I'm insulted if you think I'm trolling...
Also if I was going to troll I'd do a better job getting you fighting amongst yourselves not fighting with MerryP. I'd do something about lineage, close door students, secret techniques that Ip Man only taught my sifu's sifu, or the simple reason why you can't beat a BJJ player with only 6 months under his belt. It'd be subtle and complimentary not an out right question.

"I did a real beauty over on the WC forum by just asking a question about sparring. Somehow MerryPrankster got sucked into that one."
Yup got you all worked up there scout.

yuanfen
04-08-2002, 08:50 PM
No Rogue- had your number in the first place. Merry P may not have understood that at first.

raving_limerick
04-08-2002, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by londoner2001
...*snip* Any decent puncher would leave someone knocked out and after repeated exposure to this bare knuckle fighting brain damage or at the worst death. The way to spar and to erase fear of combat is to put on a helmet full padding double mouth gaurd and semi contact gloves and just go in full oanctact like a real fight, then you get conditioned to fighting well. Don't do it every day though or you will have no brianc ells left!

Dude, I really hate to burst your bubble, but Rogue was right-- sparring does not lead to brain damage- bare knuckle or otherwise.

Read a few histories on western boxing-- the old bare-knuckle guys sustained injuries from fighting, yes, but they were totally different injuries than professional boxers recieve today. According to historian Eliot J. Gorn, the gloves served to protect the hands and make the bouts last longer, which meant that gloved boxers could punch your head all day long without feeling it afterwords. Not so for the bare-knuckle guys.

Secondly, any repeated trauma to the head, with or without pads will result in brain damage, but this generally takes a long time to accumulate to a noticable level. Sure you'll find cases of people getting brain damage after severe head trauma like accidents or being bludgeoned with a hammer, or the rupture of a blood vessel in the skull (see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/medical_notes/newsid_363000/363957.stm ) but keep in mind that these are generally rarities. Likewise, there exists a lot of grey area regarding head trauma, boxing, and brain damage, so the statistics quoted mean that there might be a correlation between the two.(See: http://www.parkinson.org/boxing.htm ) Heredity and genetics are also considered possible contributors to the brain's susceptability to neurological damage (there was just a study done of NY boxers about this-- it seems like the ones with the brain damage possessed some genetic flaw, but I'm not sure. I'll look the study up later).

Thirdly, there's a differentiation between the idea of sparring and competition. You don't go all out (meaning you try to knock your opponent unconcious or kill them) during sparring, you spar to test technique and to learn how to fight within the confines of your particular disipline. Competition is different-- you're out for victory and if achieving victory means knocking someone else's teeth out, you'd better be prepared to do it or else invest in a good pair of dentures. Real life-or-death fighting is probably another world entirely.

Finally, the comparison to boxers was flawed. Boxers are in a sport that encourages head shots, protects their hands from said head shots, and forces most professional boxers to train daily for several years. If you were pegged in the head with a soccer ball kicked at full force several times every day, you'd recieve brain damage as well. This doesn't mean that if you played soccer, you're guaranteed to get brain damage. In this light, I have no problem with eventually sparring full contact with my wing chun, and bareknuckle at that. But, I will do it when I feel that I've got the principles down first.

As for Rogue, I think whether or not he's serious about wing chun is incidental, as he's provided an interesting viewpoint from outside the usual lens of Wing Chun. That said, let the flames crackle...

Edit: to clarify a few things

rogue
04-08-2002, 09:27 PM
Also look at the early UFC competitions, I know of at least one fighter that had to drop out because he broke his hand. I don't remember if any one got knocked out.



"No Rogue- had your number in the first place. Merry P may not have understood that at first."

So yuanfem, you're saying that you're much smarter than Merryprankster. Funny but he always seemed pretty sharp to me, but hey if you say so swami you know everything.

Heck you're much smarter than me but that's easy since I'm just sum po ol rednek from de country whuz no match for yo intelick. Now if yawl excuse me there's revnurs by my daddys still.