Wing Chun punching is killing my wrists!!!

[straight blast]

This doesn't worry me at all when I'm punching mitts, punching targets etc. but if I'm punching a kick shield and I lose concentration for a second my wrist buckles on impact and considerable pain occurs.

The obvious solution is not to punch kick shields but everybody else I train with (even the people on their first lesson) punches them. As I said earlier it's not a problem if my focus is 100% but I worry that in a real situation when the adrenaline dump happens I won't be able to maintain that focus.

Any ideas for strengthening the wrists? Not the good ol' "pushups on the knuckles" thing either 'cos one of my wrists is a bit busted anyway & I've been advised by the doc not to do them. I'm not looking for some superhuman gruelling shaolin technique that requires hours of pain and looks really nice, just something simple and scientific (like WC) that other Wing Chun people do. Any takers?

I've found that warming them up a little with SLT helps, but it's the strengthening I need!

[Roy D. Anthony]

Well Straightblast, perhaps you are punching incorrectly!!!

[Joakim Svensson]

The most important thing is to practice how
to properly align the hand/wrist/elbow.

There should be no excessive tension in the
wrist or hand while punching. Try to relax
your shoulders and keep the elbows down and
in.
Practice relaxed "wet noodle" punches on a
wall bag and pay attention to keep the elbows
in and to relax the arms and shoulders.
There should be just enough tension in the wrist
to properly align it.

You are actually punching "from" the elbow and
the lower arm and hand/wrist is just an extension
that should not tense up. If you are tense you
are using localized disconnected force and you
will not be able to generate true Wing Chun close
range power.

Best regards
Joakim

www.wing-chun.nu
www.wingchun.com
www.go.to/wingchun

[Nichiren]

Straight Blast: Isn't sore wrists a symptom of not training in a while? What I'm saying is in particullary boxing, if you been away from training a longer time it takes time for the wrists to adept to the strain on them. Especially if you are throwing hooks on the bag.

[straight blast]

Roy D. Anthony... Thanks for the expert tip!

Joakim Svensson...thanks, I will bear that in mind next time I jump in front of a wallbag. I'll wonder if I'll have to explain to my Sihings what "wet noodle" punching is!!! :D

Nichiren... I don't think it's so much a symptom of not training in a while as it is many years of punching with a horizontal fist getting in the way. I naturally attempt to align my first two knuckles to strike (as in Thai boxing) but I need to be aligning the bottom three. But I have definately experienced the hooks on the bag thing. Moreso for me uppercuts. One poorly executed upper can leave your wrist aching for about a week.

Thanks for the thoughts guys :)

[edward]

has nothing to do with strengthing wrist.... its improper punch mechanics

[reneritchie]

Hi,

Do both wrists hurt or just one? If it's both wrists, you might need to adjust your punching mechanics to prevent injury. The proper alignment (physiologically) is for the elbow to be behind the middle two-knuckles (NOT the pinky knuckle, this might be what's causing you pain), wrist naturally straight (NOT bent one way or another). This way, on impact, you don't rick sheering the pinky knuckle or developping Repetitive Stress Injuries in the wrist from twist-compressing it.

If its just one wrist, then you may simply have an injury (maybe even a chronic one) that needs care before it can withstand the abuse of heavy punching. A good physio-therapist is the best bet, or if you have access, a TCM/herbalist.

Rgds,

RR

[Sharky]

um... i can't see why your wrist should buckle? unless either the pad is not straight, or you are punching in a curved manner.

Sort it out son.

[dzu]

Like others have already said, your alignment is probably off. One way to check or correct is to stand facing a wall. Place your fist against the wall at neck height so that just the middle and ring knuckles (not the whole fist) are making contact. Make sure you have good elbow position behind the wrist and lean into the wall. The feedback should help you feel any pain or buckling of the wrist. You may also feel mis-alignment at the elbow and shoulder as well. Everyone has different body dimensions and this is one way you can find the best alignment yourself.

Dzu

[edward]

more than likely the alingment is incorrect at the moment of impact..... remember the punch is at an angle, if you over roate it and fist being perfectly vertical the first thing that'll hit is the middle knuckly, which will cuase the wrist to buckle.

proper alignement is the fist being at an angle... by being at an angle the entire fist hits the target squarly. all to often people put too much emphasis on the knuckles

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


You have a lot of good advice to help with your problem. I may only add a couple of things that could help you out.

1) Is your hand/wrist/bridge flat? There should be no bend! Thumb points to the sky and elbow points to the earth. Never contract even on impact!

2) The Sae Mun Bai Jee (4 corner swaying fingers) section in the beginning of the "modern" Biu Jee set within Yip Man's WC is excellent for wrist/bridge strength. We preserve this skill in our Siu Lin Tau level and it makes all the difference in the world when understood and trained properly.

Practice it often will change you! (quote from Fung Sang sifu!)

Best of luck!


Jim

[Marshdrifter]

If you have to concentrate to hit the shield correctly,
you probably aren't using correct structure. It sounds
like the structure isn't innate, but you can still do
it correctly if you think about it. Or, it could be that
you're tensing your arm to compensate for the poor
structure and if you don't concentrate you don't
tense at the correct time. Seeing how practicing
SLT helps a bit, I'd think it's the first one.

To help this problem, practice SLT a lot. Also
spend some time lightly hitting a sandbag.
Do this alot and it'll reinforce the correct structure.
Eventually, you won't have to concentrate as much.

[straight blast]

I'm hitting a curved kick shield...do you think that the curvature may have something to do with it from what you said in your post? Thinking about it it doesn't happen at all when I hit the wallbag or punching bag. Maybe it's the curved inward structure of the kick shield?

[Matrix]

I don't think hitting a curved shield is an issue. Although it may be possible if you are manipulating your wrist to compensate for it.

If it doesn't happen when you hit a heavy bag or a wall bag, then I suspect that it may have something to do with the density of the target. These shields tend to be much less dense than a bag. You may be torquing your wrist as you try to power through the shield and your fist sinks into it.

It'a all about the structure.

Matrix

[old jong]

Either (or both!) you are trying to adapt to the curved surface of the target or, you punch with the knuckles instead of the entire surface of the fist. These are the only things I can see that could have this effect.

[old jong]

I think there is a concensus appearing here!;)

[dedalus]

People aren't perfect surfaces when you punch them either, which leads me to ask:

What are the appropriate body targets for a wing chun punch?

[Matrix]

The center of mass.

Matrix

[dedalus]

Can you elaborate?

My understanding is that the centre of mass of the human body is around dantien (just below the navel)... that's certainly where rugby players aim to tackle. But presumably wing chun punches aren't aimed there, so perhaps you are talking about the centre of mass of the head? If so, would that mean you would be making contact with the bridge of the nose? Your comment hasn't really cleared anything up for me :confused:

[Matrix]

When I say the "center of mass", I am referring to the center of the mass of the opponents body as it is presented to you in an attack along your centerline. You will not necessarily be attacking face to face with an opponent, but rather come in on an angle. However, if you were coming in face to face, the target would be along a line from the dantien (as you've indicated) up to the forehead. Of course that's a generalisation, since the relative height of the opponent must also be factored in. If the opponent is much taller, you might not punch to the head, if he was much shorter, the dantien would not be a target. You have to know the natural range of your punch and not reach for a specific target, but rather use your forward energy to drive to the center of mass, and just hit whatever suitable target is presented to you. If you come in at an angle you hit along your centerline and strike, you might hit the rib cage or the side of the head, but again hitting to the center of mass at that point.

Once again, know the upper and lower range of your punch for effective striking. Hit "what is" not "what if".

Matrix

[Sabu]

Originally posted by Matrix
You have to know the natural range of your punch and not reach for a specific target, but rather use your forward energy to drive to the center of mass, and just hit whatever suitable target is presented to you. Reminds me of the movie Frankenstein...

In my humble, humble, most humble opinion. When attacking one cannot take a defensive attitude. There are a myriad of targets presented in a moments time. All one must do is pick the cherry. And savor the juices.

[yuanfen]

Reminds me of the movie Frankenstein...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which one?
Boris Karloff
or
Mel Brooks-Gene Wilder
Each has its wing chun moments!!

:D

[Alpha Dog]

Thar's a tahmm fer eatin' an' a tahmm fer fytennnn, you gotta jus' mak' up yer mahnd, sun....

[old jong]

Imagine a wire going down from the top center of the head to the center between the legs!...:eek: This line is all the time in the center of the body whatever the angle you look at it. This is the target.If you strike at this line ,the target will not turn,it will just absorb the full force of the impact. You hit the center of mass as Matrix said!
Frankenstein was good at that ,I heard!
;)

[yuanfen]

Frankenstein was good at that ,I heard!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Herr Doktor or his creation. One of those two took my popcorn
or was that Ms. Kahn?

[dedalus]

Thanks for the clarification :)

Just to clear up my own interest in this thread, I was originally wondering if there are specific points you might at least
avoid so as not to injure your hands.

Hence we return to the wrist trouble.

[Sabu]

As humans we love limitations and ideals.

Why limit ourselves to the one line? Sometimes we cannot have our Caramel Crunch Cake AND eat it too...

There are other lines as well, and they don't change according to the Sunshine Girl. It's as simple as picking the cherry.... and feeding it to your elephant...

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by dedalus
I was originally wondering if there are specific points you might at least
avoid so as not to injure your hands.

Hence we return to the wrist trouble.

-- is that you won't feel the pain till the party's over!

My guess is that if you are worrying about your wrists while someone is contemplating your bludgeoning, you are gonna have more than sore wrists when all is said and done.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by Sabu
As humans we love limitations and ideals.


There is no spoon Sabu!! You will have to find another way to eat your cake.

[old jong]

Martix....I would not say "spinal" as the line is in the center of the body, not the spine that is very close to the surface of the back.;)

Now for places that should be avoided in punching: I would avoid the head with the exception of the nose area. the hips(very hard!) ,watch the elbows, the rest of the body is O.K.!
I would'nt mind doing hard palms anywhere!

[sunkuen]

sorry I was wrong...Old jong is right enuff.;)

[yuanfen]

Different strokes for different folks... I would punch or palm- anything- whatever can deliver energy, In a real situation you wont have the luxury of exclusive targets for punches and palms.

[old jong]

This is why I keep the " strike when you should/ don't strike when you should not" thing in mind!...I think it goes with keeping our head clear and not losing control of ourselves in a fight. I know,in reality is not always so easy to do but, we must strive toward this goal. The idea is to avoid throwing crasy punches driven by fear or lack of control.

[yuanfen]

I do have principles in mind and am not talking about lack of control. When there is an opening sometimes the palm is direct and convenient, sometimes the fist..depends. Palm is less susceptible to injury but sometimes a short fist can get in where a palm may not and vice versa.

[old jong]

I don't doupt it a second!...I was merely adding something to your comment!

[Sabu]

Originally posted by old jong
This is why I keep the " strike when you should/ don't strike when you should not" thing in mind!...

My truly humble apologies for sounding repetitive... The targets are always there, and as the good sir, Mr. Yuanfen suggested, all you have to do is pick your weapon. But first you have to develop your weapons. Clean them, sharpen them, spit on them, polish them, wax them.

[yuanfen]

I would rather spit on the opponent- a clean mind in a clean body
you know- the other fella is the dirty rat.

[dedalus]

LOL :D

Amusing thread. I completely agree with Sabu that in a fight you might be less concerned about the pain of a bony strike, and if you get out of a life-or-death encounter with a broken hand, you've done good.

The problem that was originally raised, though, was with wrist injury during training. Why beat your body to hell like that? I've seen old taekwondo and karate board-breakers who have virtually fused their knuckles together, and can't even hold a tea cup as pensioners. What's the point?

Now palm strikes I like to hear about (as a bagua guy, you understand). We still use the odd punch, and I agree that you can get your knuckles and fingers into some nice, delicate spots, but I'm neither damaging my hands in training nor drilling myself to hit hard targets with my knuckles as a reflex. I think that with assiduous training you can avoid even the broken hand in that dangerous encounter - you just don't train the reflex to hit the point of the chin with a flat fist.

Perhaps it comes down to the simple fact that I train to hit most anything with a palm, whereas a wing chun fighter trains to hit most anything with a fist.

Hope this doesn't drag the discussion off topic... I'm really enjoying what you guys have had to say ;)

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by dedalus
Perhaps it comes down to the simple fact .... a wing chun fighter trains to hit most anything with a fist.

Where'd you get that fact?

[yuanfen]

Yes dedalus as Alpha Dog asked- where did you get that idea?/
Some of these net discussions touch on tips of giant icebergs-
wing chun has as many palms as fists and the thread is not about
ALL the goodies in the wing chun arsenal.
On the original thread--- if the wing chun fist is done right and the
bones are all aligned. ... and if you gradually develop a routine of both air punching and bag tapping with the right kind of dit da jow
your wrist shouldnt hurt unless you have a physiological problem.
I hope that you are punching square on---rather than on pinky etc/

[Sabu]

Originally posted by dedalus
I completely agree with Sabu that in a fight you might be less concerned about the pain of a bony strike, and if you get out of a life-or-death encounter with a broken hand, you've done good. I am sorry sir, but I don't believe I suggested anything of the sort....


Perhaps it comes down to the simple fact that I train to hit most anything with a palm, whereas a wing chun fighter trains to hit most anything with a fist.!!!!! My elephant is waving his trunk in dismay! Wing Chun is not as limited as the general public thinks....

[dedalus]

Ah, my apologies Sabu... I was misattributing Alpha Dog's comment to you ("The joy of adrenaline is that you won't feel the pain until the party's over").

I think the punching comment was poorly expressed, and has led to some misunderstanding. I really only meant to rephrase the comments made by several of you to the effect that in WC one can punch anywhere along the centreline. I wasn't trying to imply that one can ONLY punch, and I do realise that wing chun has many body weapons at its disposal.

I'll back off now so your elephant can get back to.... um... just standing there....

[KenWingJitsu]

There is a very simple solution for this. I'm not going to elaborate too much. All you have to do is change how you make a fist, & you'll never bend your wrist again.

Place the tip of your thumb in the corner of the second knuckle of your index finger as if you're pushing a butto. Hold it there. Now go punch the airsheild. Your wrist is now "locked". You can thank me later.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by dedalus
I wasn't trying to imply that one can ONLY punch, and I do realise that wing chun has many body weapons at its disposal.
Thank you for your considerate reply, dedalus.

However, it does appear that many on this forum believe that the punch to the centreline is the only avenue worth riding. We cannot neglect the alleys and the ravines, or we'll miss all the beauty of this art, we call Wing Chun.

[dedalus]

Hey Ken, great tip!

I didn't actually start this thread and don't have any trouble with my punches (I don't even train in wing chun any more), but your suggestion gives a very nice flavour to my taiji snap-punch. I love it when simple little things like that wander past...

[straight blast]

Thanks... I will give it a try! :)