hypothetical involving your sifu

[ged]

alright, im writing this post just for fun.

hypothetical. you're a policeman. you pull over a guy doing 80 in a 60 zone. he winds down the window, its your sifu. what do you do?

[sean_stonehart]

Give him the ticket. It's your job.

[ged]

how would your sifu react? respect you for doing your job, or be ****ed off that you gave him a ticket?

not really any reason for this... just like to see where it goes.

but nice work giving him the ticket, i definitely respect your integrity.

[jon]

Seeing as you like me live in Australia its a moot point...
The cop would have already shot the sifu though the window as soon as the sifu began to wind it down.
Over here we shoot first and ask questions later, if your aboriginal your REALLY in trouble.

If it was me, i would try and guilt trip him for hours about how unsafe for the community it was and how you expected better... Then book him!
Make me sit in horse stance for hours:p
In reality my sifu cant drive hehe

[anton]

I wouldn't give aticket to my sifu or my friend, and neither would any cop I've ever met.

[ged]

yeah jon, ive heard stories about cops in sydney... dont think ill ever break the law down there. (im from brisbane by the way). my sifu drives a BMW... the di-se hengs drive sportscars... my favourite ones a red mitsubishi evolution, id love to book a guy driving that.

anton - ive heard stories about cops in melbourne too. by the way, VB tastes ****. thanks :) but i still drink it... is that all u ppl drink down there?

[Ish]

I wouldn't give him a ticket but i would probly make him think i was going too for a bit then let him go

[crumpet]

he's only 20km over! don't tell me none of you guys speed over 20km? ;)

[red_fists]

I would still give her the Ticket.

And I guess she would know that I simply did my Duty.

[Sec]

I respect my Sifu but I dont kiss his ass ..
I'd hand him the ticket .. (or I'd let him off if he gave me free classes for a week ;]

[shaolinboxer]

Ticket him. Actions have consequences.

[Ray Pina]

Let him go, check his oil and ask if he needs an escort to the county line.

[Cody]

agree with shaolinboxer.

Better to have fewer laws and restrictions than to make exceptions because of station, which enhances Any station above what it should be. One overlooking of this nature goes on and on until it is expected by just about everyone. And then, what do we have. Extenuating circumstances aside, that's it for me.

Cody

[halfling]

ok, new twist... your driving down the road... speeding and the police sirens flash behind you. You pull over and the cop is your sifu/instructor...... what then??

[shaolinboxer]

He tickets you. Actions have consequences.

[Justa Man]

what?! some of you cats would actually ticket your sifus? holy @ssholes batman! if i was your sifu, i'd teach you tae bo techniques until you left my school.

[crumble]

Man, I would challenge him to a race.

-crumble

[Ray Pina]

Exactly Just A Man.

I think in fear of being perceived as a sifu worshipper many treat there sifu as just one of the guys.

I wouldn't spend so much of my time and money training with just one of the guys. Do I worship my teacher? No, he's not a god. But take the highest praise a man can have for another man, and that's what I have for my teacher.

[Fen]

Make him (SIFU) do push ups for you!! Like you do for him!!! When you get in trouble in class!!! As for the other way around I would tell Sifu that if i get a ticket then I could not pay for KUNG FU untill it was paid!!!

[ewallace]

I don't currently have a sifu, but if I did and he pulled me over, I sure as hell wouldn't try resisting arrest.

[Cody]

I would expect the same treatment I would have given him; a ticket.

Cody

[red_fists]

Same here: I would expect him to do his duty and give me the ticket.

[Stacey]

No way I'd ticket my Sifu. I give him a verbal warning later and tell him where the speed traps were. The warning is the most I'd give.


You guys don't seem to realize something. Your Sifu can teach you something, and you will only think you understand it unless he gives you the details, **** him off and you don't know how his future indifference could derail you. There is depth and breadth of knowlege. You know what? Life is short, why not let your close friends off the hook...If everyone else is going the same speed, pick off another one.

[red_fists]

Stacey.

I don't see it as a way of ****ing him off.

A Sifu is still a human being with all the trappings that come with both weak & strong points.

And if I need to "buy" favors/good will from my Sifu/Friends in order to learn MA, I would seriously rethink my priorities in life and MA Environment.

[Stacey]

Human yes, but I guess thats just how I work. If I work someplace, close friends get discounts/free stuff. Its not buying friends, its just what you do. I guess I have learned in life that loyalty to your core group is more important than the slight infractions placed on us by our government. As a Cop you have choices, you can fine someone for Jaywalking on an empty street, but cop or not, your still an *******.

Remember in "Tai Chi Masters" or "Twin Warriors"

Junbao catches Jet Li and cuts his co workers(bad guy cop) throat. Sure he was still the bad guy, but loyalty to your close friends and familly is the most important thing. Who will come to your aid? Cops? Not unless your already dead. Only close friends and familly, this includes your Sifu.

[red_fists]

Stacey.

Do a certain degree I agree with you.
Loyalty to a core group is ok, but how much is realistic.

I work in the IT-Industry, does this mean I should set my Sifu's web-page up by using pirated Software I copied from work or similar??

There is also something called "Integrity" and both me and my Sifu/Friends value it highly.

I also build Garage-Kits and got access to Kits at Wholesale prices, but neither my friend has offered me nor have I asked him for it.

Actually my Friend went and bought a Kit at FULL-PRICE for my Birthday, rather than get it at Employee discount(50$ cheaper).

This is what I am talking about.
But everybody has to make their own choices in Life.

[Chang Style Novice]

This is just ridiculous. Most of you would be the worst kind of cops.

Hypothetical: you're a cop. You get a call that a man is on a murderous rampage, pummelling the hell out of anyone he encounters with deadly force and weapons. You arrive on the scene, and it's your sifu.

The difference is only a matter of degree. On the job, do your job. Period, no ifs ands buts or maybes.

If your sifu doesn't respect that, he doesn't respect you or the law. That's no kind of sifu, regardless of his skill.

[Justa Man]

c'mon man. murdering and speeding are not comparable! would yall ticket your own mothers!?
of course the difference is a matter of degree. are you gonna throw a piercing palm to a guy's throat if he shoves you? no cuz your reaction would not fit the action. you trying to cease he breathing passage would be way too much a reaction to a push right? the degree determines the action.
it's not about integrity, it's about ticketing your f'in teacher! repeat, YOUR TEACHER, as in, the guy that spends his energy showing you ways to defend your life, or make it more healthy.
it aint about buying favors. if you let your mom slide, does it mean you doing it cuz you ewant her to cook your dinner for the next week? NO! it's about the relationship you have with your teacher being a father/son one. not an idol/worshipper, not a hook me up/hook you up.
i don't know. maybe i just view my sifu as family, and family have those little police cards that get them off. but i swear yall are huffin too much gas fumes.

[anton]

Originally posted by ged

anton - ive heard stories about cops in melbourne too. by the way, VB tastes ****. thanks :) but i still drink it... is that all u ppl drink down there?

Yeah everyone loves their VB down here. Im Russian so I'll drink anything :D

[Satanachia]

Holy carp. Some of you guys sound really.....well....honourable i guess.

You see everything in black and white, like comparing murder to a ticket.

I don't know what its like where you live, but around here, assuming you keep your head, act non-confrontational, and talk nicely, the traffic cop will 95% of the time let you off with a warning.

If i pulled my sifu over, i'd let him go with a warning. I'd assume he'd do the same to me. As well as everyone else i know.

[anton]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
This is just ridiculous. Most of you would be the worst kind of cops.
Well thats a subjective statement.



Hypothetical: you're a cop. You get a call that a man is on a murderous rampage, pummelling the hell out of anyone he encounters with deadly force and weapons. You arrive on the scene, and it's your sifu.
The difference is only a matter of degree. On the job, do your job. Period, no ifs ands buts or maybes.
Of course its a matter of degree, everything in life is a matter of degree. Don't pretend that you don't compromise or base your decisions on degrees - everyone does.
Hypothetical: Someone rapes and kills your sister. You know who it is, but the law won't do anything about it -do you kill the guy or at least give him something to remember you by - most people would say yes. Now a different situation: someone accidentally bumps into your sister on the street and doesn't apologise, do you bash the crap out of him? no? why not? - its "only a matter of degree"



If your sifu doesn't respect that, he doesn't respect you or the law. That's no kind of sifu, regardless of his skill.
He doesn't respect the law because he speeds - you've never gone over the speed limit?
If I knew a cop and they pulled me over for speeding I'd expect them to let me off because I'd do the same for them(unless ofcourse someone is supervising them or they can't get away with it without someone finding out).

[Chang Style Novice]

You guys are still missing the point. The question is about preferential treatment, not violence.

You would give preferential treatment if you were in power, I would not. When those with power and authority give preferential treatment that is abuse of power - did your sifu teach you to abuse your power, or to use it fairly and wisely?

And as to a matter of degree - the difference between a speeding ticket and shooting an armed and dangerous criminal is a matter of degree, too, and was implicit in my hypothetical already. So, anton is barking up the wrong tree with the rape comparison. Satanachia's point about traffic cops letting speeders off all the time is a good example of NOT abusing power. He's treating strangers the same as his sifu, not differently.

A martial artist/policeman is a different person in his gi and his uniform. In the gi, he represents his school and his art and his sifu is responsible for your behaviour and actions. In the uniform, he represents law and the people (of his city/state/nation...whatever) and superior officers and the police department are responsible for his behavior and actions. His behavior should change accordingly. Another milder example: is it okay for a cop to get drunk at his birthday party? Sure. Is it okay for a cop to get drunk on patrol? Obviously not.

Anton - sure I've sped. And I got a ticket. I've been busted for possession of paraphenalia, too, and spent a weekend in jail and paid a big fine. I plead no contest although I think the law is wrong. It's still the law, isn't it? I respect it, even when I break it.

[jon]

Ok here is a REAL one for you all...
My sifu got me a job in his own brothers Chinese resteraunt.
Thats all well and good and the job is fly, here is the problem...
Keep in mind i already have a girlfriend...
My sisuk(think thats sifus brother?) has a young daughter (guess where this is going :p) and she is just sooooooooooooo cute!
I find myself already getting along pretty well with her and the place is pretty darn small.
My question is how do i avoid getting into trouble?
Im not about to do anything but she is sooooo hot and i cant help but chat with her and enjoy well... looking at her!
I KNOW this is going to get me into trouble at some point but when i consider all the options, im stuffed either way :(

1 I could quit while im ahead... Then my sifu is dissapointed i didnt contiue with the job when i so obviously need one and he has gone out of his way to help me.

2 I can continue on the way im going.. its still early days and with some luck ill just get used to her and not care soon. This is the option im planning on taking atm. Still it runs the risk of my boss catching on and thinking the wrong thing... she is younger than me as well.

3 I can try to ignore her which then runs the risk of her getting annoyed and complaining to her dad about me :(

What im hoping is that ill be sensible enough to realise i like the girl im already with and as such will stop looking at her constantly out the corner of my eye and get to darn work!


Side note:
His brother (my boss) is going to teach me to cook, he is amazing and i watched him tonight. He has been cooking for thirty years, lol i cant cook for nuts and now im learning from an authentic chinese chef.
How cool is my life! Kung fu by day and chinese resteraunt with my sifus brother(who also knows kung fu) by night :)
err oh and the hot daughter and my girlfriend, if i wasnt dead broke i would be saying life is pretty good about now!

So who wants a shot at my little moral trauma?

3

[Mr Punch]

Dude! What's the trauma?! Don't **** your girlfriend about! You can just talk to the other chick... it's not like you have to 'give HER a ticket'!

Back to the speeding sifu. Let him go if you let other people go. Or book his ass. Or don't be a pig bast... er, officer of the law. :rolleyes:

[ewallace]

I think that might deserve it's own thread bro. That could be a very sticky predicament you might find yourself in.

[fa_jing]

Well, my sifu happens to be a Cook County Sheriff and Investigator. So one day after class, he asks me if I can give him a ride to his car, which is parked a few blocks away. Now, I couldn't think of a way to back out of it, so I agreed. See my buddy and I had just gotten back from a trip to the beach and my car was smelling like "ISM". I was like fu(k it what's he gonna do, arrest me? So he locked me up in cuffs and beat me down and...
just kidding. I said "sorry about the mess" and he said "that's all right, I'm used to it." and we made some small talk. It was funny but of course I was embarassed. That was a long time ago. I don't think he gave a sh!t. Besides, weed's legal in the city of Chicago... I mean in my neighborhood you probably get high just breathing the air. :cool:

-FJ

[dezhen2001]

Hey Jon, that's quite the position you are in there my friend!
Hmmm, to me it's pretty obvious what to do. It will certainly test your resolve i'm sure :)

david

[Justa Man]

jon you got a fatty hookup indeed.
dump your girl, take your sisuk's, marry her and start the dynasty! then you make her study your kung fu and make your kids start learning kung fu at a dumb young age and then their kids and their kids and it's like a dream come true!
wait....it's MY dream come true! ok jon, stick with your girl and hook ME up with sisuk's daughter.

[Ray Pina]

My teacher said soemthing to the class in general on my first day but I think it was directed towards me because I was the only white-boy and he wanted me to know where he is at.

He said something along the lines of: "I don't hold back anything from anyone. I'll teach you to your level of understanding. But at the same time I'm a human being. I don't care about the color of your skin" -- here he might have slipped in a remark about Japanese though -- "but I am human. It's only natural that I'll show more to people that treat me well and with respect."

Now the "treat me well" does not mean slipping him extra money. Its saltuting him everytime I come in the school and the clenched fist is held high, showing him the respect that he deserves because besides being my teacher, he is A LOT better then me and can beat my a$$, so its a sigh of respect. Same before I leave. If he's talking to someone I wait for him to finish so I can say good nigth. Why not?

Also, and this may be going too far, but: I know my master is an Ali fan. I saw an Ali book of photographs taken by a Sport Illustrated phtographer. It was only $25 or so, I picked it up for him. He mentioned once he was looking for a photo of an eagle going in for the kill, I whent on line and found a poster ... then went to pearl and picked up a cheep frame. Why not?

This is the man that is boosting my kung fu rediculously. Its the reason why I acn talk some $hit and then fellow it up with a, "well, come see for yourself if you think I'm wrong, that I won't flip your bong so."

You can't put a price tag on that.

Other students adress him very informally. Some, when he's trying to show one technique, get cute and try to jam him by doing soemthing else, maybe sneak a kick while he's simply demonstrating a simple hand movement -- wanting to just show the idea.

But one does not inherit the Imperial Palace Ba GUa by being a kook and he always jams them. What are these guys trying to prove? If they felt so confident as to do that, they should be excepting the challenges that he still fights at 60 in his place.

I don't get it. Total lack of respect.

Would you ticket your father? How about your fiancee's father? My master is the most valuable person on this planet to me right now. Maybe I can say that because my mother died when I was younger and I'm not so close to my family. But I can't think of anyone else that I look up to. I can't. Athlete, actors. What, I couldn't do that if I put my mind to it?

No, this man's ability sets him apart from EVERYONE else. He's outside comparison and associations.

Ticket him? Are you crazy. You just cost yourself the inner meaning to everything. You'll only know the flowery surface. Think this is drastic? I've seen it happen already many times.

[NafAnal]

nail her

[ratman201]

Wow that "sucks" (note sarcastic tone at have two girls).
But seriously p**** comes after everything else except drinking. You always gotta weigh you options cause if one night of funs gonna make the next year miserable its not worth it. Then of course if you don't see a future with your girl then by all means have fun. And if you really can't deal with it just j*** off more. LOL

The value of perfection is that it is just beyond the reach of every man.
-Miyanmoto Musashi-

[IronFist]

Maybe your sifu would respect you more for being upright and ticketing him.

IronFist

[Ray Pina]

weeds legal in Chicago? IS there surf?

I actually here the Great Lakes do break at times but it mad weak. No sharks though.

[red_fists]

E-Fist.

In Japan I can buy "Magic Mushrooms" from Street vendors openly.
:D

Granted Goverment now wants to make selling and owning of those illegal, but till than they are right there in the open next to the CD's on the Street Vendors Table.

[Chang Style Novice]

Ironfist understands that a true master places principle above himself. Evolutionfist does not understand this.

[Chang Style Novice]

As an afterthought, what about this? In keeping with my earlier post about the difference between the gi and the uniform:

Ticket him, let him know you are sorry but this is your job and you have a trust to uphold. When you see him in class, tell him to give you the ticket, and you'll pay for it.

Best of both worlds, maybe.

[joedoe]

If your sifu were a righteous person, they would insist you give them the ticket.

[KC Elbows]

My sifu wouldn't be caught dead in hypothetical situations.

[Stacey]

The main priority for a gentlemen would be to make sure that his student did not feel uncomfortable or awkward. This is most important, people come before beaurocracy. Right and wrong are relative to one another. A kind person would seek harmony in the situation.


A note to all cops....yes we know your powerfull, don't be a ****head, you will only get surface level respect, we hate bad cops...I **** with them

Once I got pulled over and the guy hated me from the get go. He pulled every power trip on me after I was friendly and courteous. I knew I was getting a ticket. Or worse, I thought I might have to fight him, because I felt something was up. Finally I went into passive agressive mode. He waited forever in his car, I could see he was looking at me trying to psyce me out....so I pulled out a newspaper, got it real big, leaned back and started reading.

He came back after 15 minutes. (why it takes this long to check up on me is beyond me) demanded my registration. My car was scattered with papers so I looked here and there and here again, with a kind of south american/mediteranean/jamaican laxity, that he loathed. He started swearing, "jesus christ, bla bla bla" So I went slower...Is it here? No..Is it here? No, Maybe I 'll check where I checked before. As he was about to explode with rage...not kidding he was shaking. I said, Oh silly me, here it is in the glove compartment. Durring my search, he cooled off and stopped being such a male organ swallower, gave me my ticket, said, "Don't let me catch you blah blah blah...so I said, "oh you won't catch me, I promise".

To which he wasn't sure if I was agreeing or not. I thanked him and he left.


I shall not now, that If I am made king of the world he will be hung publicly. Make no mistake about it. You needn't be a bully. I have known excellent cops who have ticketed me without trying to strip me of my dignity. I have no secret urge to snipe them from the woods by there house. I love them...he on the other hand.....lets just say that If I were the kind to keep a hit list, he would be on it.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Ironfist understands that a true master places principle above himself. Evolutionfist does not understand this.

Actually, Evolutionfist comments indicate he understands this quite clearly. He understands how to distinguish priority in his life, and distinguish principles of life above principles of society. There is no law saying an officer must issue a speeding ticket to a person violating the speed limit. In life, we live circumstances by the situation and the moment. Perhaps you have some dreamed up set of principles and codes which you force yourself to live by, but that sounds like a really boring life.

Without the ability to be flexible in situations and bend the principles, you are living robotically according to some code somebody else designed. You choose the way you want to live your life and the way you want to treat people in it. Life is a constant series of emotions and most of our actions reflect our emotions or lack there of, including the emotions we would feel from giving our sifu a ticket or the emotions we would feel by not doing so. Neither choice is right or wrong, they are simply choices based on circumstance, situation and feeling. Whatever choice you made, as long as you were confident in that choice, the one thing that can be surely said about it is that you were the one who made it.

[dre]

I'd make him give me a month of free lessons in exchange for *overlooking* the violation.

[anton]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice

And as to a matter of degree - the difference between a speeding ticket and shooting an armed and dangerous criminal is a matter of degree, too, and was implicit in my hypothetical already. So, anton is barking up the wrong tree with the rape comparison.
Not really. As I understood your hypothetical comparison, you may be suggesting one of three things:
1) That if you don't give your sifu a ticket, then logically you should not arrest him for going on a murderous rampage. or
2) That as the difference between the two offences is marginal (or "a matter of degree"), and therefore not booking him for speeding is as bad as not booking him for murder. or
3) That since most people who would not book their sifu for speeding, would still arrest him for going on a murderous rampage they are somehow being hypocritical as they base their principles/decisions on the severity of the offence being committed.

My point was that all of us (including you) base our decisions as to how to react to any given situation on the nature or "degree" of seriousness of the situation or stimulus.
Changing the principle you apply to a situation and therefore the way you react, based on the nature of the situation is normal and in no way hypocritical. Doing otherwise in many situations would be foolish.

Hence I can say that I would not give my sifu a speeding ticket, but I would arrest him without a doubt for going on a murderous rampage. Sure they are both criminal offences, with only a "degree" of difference between them (a pretty big one in my opinion) - but, as I said, it is normal to base your reactions on the specific facts of the situation at hand.

[Chang Style Novice]

This book was just recommended to me on another forum, but it seems to be germane to the discussion here. At first blush, I think this really sums up what I've been talking about.

*********************

Don Miguel Ruiz -- The Four Agreements:

Be impeccable with your word
Don't take anything personally
Don't make assumptions
Always do your best

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1878424505/qid=1017432969/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_67_2/104-6347371-6091962

[Chang Style Novice]

1 - Be impeccable to your word.

As a cop, you must do your duty. Duty is non-negotiable, because treating everyone the same is the essence of a free, egalitarian society. For those in a position of authority to play favorites undermines what is good and right about egalitarianism and libertarianism (not in the political party sense of the word.)

2 - Don't take anything personally.

Sifu should understand that by ticketing him you are only doing your duty, and the right thing as I've described above.

3 - Don't make assumptions.

I don't really see how this fits in, unless there are extenuating circumstances to the speeding ticket we haven't yet mentioned.

4 - Always do your best.

By resisting the temptation to play favorites, as described in 1, you not only demonstrate your own personal honor to your sifu (who I would hope is impressed by your committment to duty), but you protect the system of law that gives us our freedom. Some may claim that laws limit our freedoms, but well-designed laws should instead protect us from oppression. Ie: if everyone drove fast all the time, we would fear that the roads are too dangerous and would become prisoners in our own homes. By enforcing a reasonable limit on speed, we create a safe environment for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians. That's more freedom to choose how and when to move about, not less.

[Justa Man]

right on csn. "a reasonable limit on speed". i agree with you. if my sifu is doing a buck down a 45 then i'd have to reconsider giving him a ticket, unless it's a medical emergency/life or death thing, etc.
but show me a cop that follows the law to a t. show me a cop that tickets his grandma or his son. you all talking about integrity know that you'll never find one cop that would do that and you wouldn't do it yourselves, so bringing up integrity and righteousness is nonsense.

[anton]

I guess you just have stronger principles than me, regarding certain things. On the up side I guess "moral flexibility" will come in handy if I decide to become a lawyer :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Maybe so anton, but don't stress it. It's a lot easier for me to talk like a hard@ss than to act like one.

[Stacey]

I liked the four agreements. Its basically latin culture. Sure its Toltec and all, but most of those indigenous groups follow the same gyst of things. Definately a recomended read.

Its also Taoism. Its good to think about how to treat your Sifu, my sifu gets ****ed at people that try to make him into a diety or ask him really etherial questions because they want a Guru to live their lives for them. He tells us that he can show us to look into ourselves and thats all, if we want answers he insists that we shut off our brains, meditate and come to the answer ourselves.

[tsunami surfer]

It depended on how he acts. If he expected me to let him off and demanded it he is getting the ticket. If he is cool and does everything you are supposed to do when pulled over and there are no warrants on him he'll probably get a free pass. This one time. Ged on your first post you said aussie cops will blast away at the drop of a hat. Why is that in a country that has a total gun ban? Or are we yanks being duped by liberal media that everything is great there since everyone(?) turned in their guns. Not flamin ya just want to know.

[anton]

There's hardly any shootings in Australia compared to other countries. And as far as I know the cops are probably less trigger-happy than most.

[Ray Pina]

I'm disapointed in my martial brothers ... I have to say.

I know its hypothetical, but where is your mind at. That is your teacher. Not your random get who you get eight grade teacher, this is the man or woman that can take you to the top of the martial mountain, if there is such a place.

If he or she can't, then you are with the wrong person. The attitudes reflected here, unfortunately, confirmed what I have feard and probbaly represented from my first posts back in the Bak Mei days: Martial Artist are a dying breed.

[Nexus]

Even if your sifu was on a murderous rampage, if he were like a father to you, it would be with a heavy heart that you had to arrest him and bring him to jail. Beyond intellect, there is a level of compassion involved that many sifu show their students, and the students that are aware of its existance show in return.

[shaolinboxer]

Noone can take you to the top of the martial mountain except yourself. If your sifu teaches you anything, it should be that.

Martial artists will only be a dying breed if we continue to surf blindly in the wake of those who come before us.

You don't need to be a martial artist to worship someone as your guide and adopted father. Just join any cult.

[Ray Pina]

Let me conclude by saying this. I would consuder myself somewhat accomplished in the martial arts. I'll be 28 next month, and I was born into this world at 4 years old. I was east coast champ in my age group at 11 or 12, in fact had to be booted out and up to the older age group because there were no other Isshin-Ryu black belts my age at that time (and yes, I did not deserve to have a black belt then, but in a sense I did. I certainly put in the work and dedication, new the systems entire form and was even teaching adult under me in rank). Di(ked around with Hung Gar, picked up Wing Chun pretty quickly, seriously enjoyed my run with Mantis.

With that said, with that experince, there is NO WAY I would have every stumbled upon or figured out the things being taught to me now by myself. NO WAY! I have to take the steps myself. But my master is above me, already well beyond me on this path. His hard work makes my efforts easier, he points out the pitfalls, the unnecessary steps.

Where would you be without your teacher? Without the knowledge passed down. I have a love for my teacher that is unique. It is one based on a tremendous amount of respect. There is no other relationship to compare it to. He is my master, and I am his student.

[Nexus]

I actually agree with both Evolutionfist and Shaolinboxer. To a certain degree, we rely on our sifu and are even attached to our sifu when it comes to learning new skills and refining the ones they have already showed us. They are a romodel, and although we are our own individual, and will innevitably lead an different destiny then our sifu, we are still able to learn principles of living through observation of their actions.

Even some of the greatest teachers I have ever seen talk about their teachers and the great lessons they learned from them.

In the local tai chi community, a week does not go by that I do not hear the names of my sifu's former teachers, Jou Tsung-Hwu, Lao Ma and others.

It's a great deal of respect and love for the arts we study which cause feelings like those Evolutionfist is displaying. As long as we are not centerred on our sifu for our own survival and martial arts growth, we will continue to grow just the same under their guidance and teachings.

- Nexus

[Cody]

In each and every person, regardless of station, I always hope that objective (independent of dogma, and as equal as possible), right ways can be found to handle the issues of life. That this might flourish in the MA community as well.

There are issues, and expectations.
I've discarded some of the expectations. One being, as a person is chosen, has trained for, and has achieved a Reputable degree of mastery in martial arts, that means the person is of exemplary character, having spiritual insight, to be held above the common man in ways besides physical prowess. I don't think the qualities necessarily come with the territory, though I am not saying it has never happened or will not happen again. An automatic expectation is naive, imo, and dangerous. The reality of life is that many kinds of individuals -- compassionate, clear-sighted, cruel, unstable, and mixes -- can be chosen and succeed. They either come upon these abilities themselves, or are selected and taught according to the preferences and agendas (stated and not) of senior teachers. There can be a religious or pseudo-religious context to this. All of what I say does not take away from the respect we should have for a person and his/her accomplishments. For me, it goes to a certain point and no further. Where the Sifu is as remarkable as we are led to expect, then he/she is still as the common man in certain ways, for instance, speeding tickets.

Because of an idealistic frame of mind, some don't hold their Sifu to the same rules or the same accountability. Some don't even want to hold their friends to those rules. Do they apply to only those you don't know as friends, or to other groups, what?
The problems are in favoritism, in a utopian mindset, and/or in just plain dishonesty, depending on the situation. If there are extenuating circumstances, then let us bend the rules for the sake of compassion, for Anyone.

Another part of the problem is being indoctrinated that the law is justice, but sometimes seeing it as a set of organizational rules used for many purposes. There can be an arbitrary feeling to it as one crosses state lines, for instance. One purpose of law can be to attempt justice. The courts enforce the law, not necessarily what is right. Even in a court of law, I have heard, while awaiting the jury selection process to go merrily on its way, a lawyer saying right up front that the courtroom is for enforcement of the law, not for justice. So, we were to leave our warm fuzzy feelings re justice outside, please. This can lead to one wanting to make exceptions, but then, what kind? I think that there are far too many laws, with a lingo that is beyond most individuals served.

When a student covers for misdeeds by a Sifu or a member of his family for any of the above reasons stated, plus additional difficulties a given situation might provide, one is doing harm in principle and in fact, very possibly without realizing it. (This does not discount compassion as a factor, as I have stated above.) One thereby provides more social power in a way in which it should not be received, and that leads to further excess, with the expectation that unaccountability will continue.

Corruption starts with very small seeds. When a policeman stops a car for obvious speeding with the intent of ticketing (in order to keep the roads safer for all), and does not ticket out of "respect" or fear or awe of the person it turns out to be, you are not only contributing to societal corruption, you are contributing to corruption within a subset of the community you hold so very dear.

I go from the post re putting teachers on pedestals to this one and shake my head. It's not a joke. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". The same notion can be used for degrees of power. Unaccountability because of station or a degree of knowledge over that generally available to the untrained mind and body is ..... unacceptable to me. !

Cody

[Nexus]

Don't take life or yourself too seriously. Don't even take this comment too seriously...

- Nexus

[fa_jing]

"It's a great deal of respect and love for the arts we study which cause feelings like those Evolutionfist is displaying. "

Feelings...nothing but Feelings La-la la Laa Laa
Oh, ahem. You guys were listening? Darn it that was embarassing.

[fa_jing]

"weeds legal in Chicago? IS there surf?

I actually here the Great Lakes do break at times but it mad weak. No sharks though."

Well, right now we got a snowstorm for yo' ass. You could try skiing but there's no hills.

Nah, stay where you are. I mean, your master is named after a waterpipe. You can't beat that.

-FJ

;)

[ged]

tsunami surfer, i didnt say that aussie cops will blast away at the drop of a hat... that was jon. ive seen stories on the news about violent/corrupt cops, but hasnt everyone? for all i know theres a thousand more stories of the same sort in your city... we just like to take the **** out of cops. hope that cleared it up :)

weird... ive writted threads about kung fu, and they get at most about 10 replies. hmm i think im seeing the pattern... my next thread will be about religion and politics, and their place in a kung fu academy.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I'm disapointed in my martial brothers ... I have to say.

I know its hypothetical, but where is your mind at. That is your teacher. Not your random get who you get eight grade teacher, this is the man or woman that can take you to the top of the martial mountain, if there is such a place.

If he or she can't, then you are with the wrong person. The attitudes reflected here, unfortunately, confirmed what I have feard and probbaly represented from my first posts back in the Bak Mei days: Martial Artist are a dying breed.

Only you can get yourself to the top of the martial mountain. Your teacher can only guide you.

Whatever your teacher is to you, you must still decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong. A good teacher would never put you through the dilemna - they would insist you give them the ticket.

[red_fists]

Here is one rule that I was taught at all the Dojo's/Kwoons that I attented.

Varied slightly, but not much.
"10/90 split rule" or "20/80 split rule".

Meaning that:
10/20% of your training you spend with your Instructor getting corrections, new stuff, etc.

90/80% of the time is when you train the taught material by yourself and make it your own skill.
This can be done at either the School or at home, in the park wherever.

In those places the Instructor/Teachers was a guide and roadmap along the road of studying MA.

Which I think is the same thing that the previous post said.

Just some personal stuff.