Question for Hung Gar players

[Ray Pina]

Ho do you utilize crane techniques into your fighting?

I always prefered tiger type trapping over the falling away crane beak attacks. Just wasn't my thing. I would say I more took on the attitude, of being whisked away safely while filling the hole with an attack, that was the best I could muster.

I never felt so confident with crane teachniques. I have an old training brother who swears by them. He teaches now and gears up his students and they work it and it looks so so then. But it never comes out in fighting.

How do you male it work? Do you use it?

[guohuen]

As a deflection/counter to an advancing combination try crane flaps wings at high speed, stepping in fast with an oriole kick. The followthrough possibilities are endless.

[Ray Pina]

I have to admit, I don't understand. I never completed my Hung Gar training. I got up to Gunji Fuk Foo. Then I left to focus soley on S. Mantis.

What I did take with me from Hung Gar though were some element punches. I like there power. My teacher used to compare it to a door. Big open, big closing slam. Little open, little close.

I like the earth element. I've modified it to be smaller, to work of a leading left, then flip it to clear and then the big Sup choy over hand. But done smaller, inside the shoulders.

My fighting has changed a lot though studying E-Chuan. That's why I claim the evolution aspect of my master's art, certainly even the Easy aspect, but not the energy yet. I need to pick my discipline up a notch and get with the program. Only so much time and so far its all been focused on my book and fighting. By the fall I want to begin a heavy internal regiment.

Thanks for your answer though. I was just curious. Hopefully others will add too. I did enjoy my Hung Gar study, I did learn soem great principles from Lau Gar and Gunji.

Ray

[guohuen]

Maybe it will help if you think of crane a little like leopard for higher stances. Speed would be the common denominator. I greatly prefer dragon and snake for evasive manouvers. I will use tiger alot as a followthrough to crane, like hungry tiger catches goat after I've gotten inside and unbalanced my opponent with crane flaps wings. Start with speed, end with power.

[Ray Pina]

Exactly.

I also still think you posses the best sign off I ever read. ANy word on wher you got that yet? If you claim it as your own I won't tell .. he, he.;)

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

A friend does Hung ga & he told me once that Crane tech's take more skill to do then Tiger, not to say tiger isn't skillfull. He said tiger is very aggressive always wanting to attack, going straight thru the opponent. The crane is more evasive trying to get out of ur opponents attacks then counter

[Ray Pina]

I guy I trained with always used to say that too, but he never faught, so he used neither tiger nor crane.

It is evasive. But take Lau Guar form for example. The firstcrane section, the leaning back in a high cat stance and whipping out the beak, I view that as weak structurally. Someone just has to shield and your in perfect position to just be bulldozed over.

Don't underestimate people's ability to change mid-technique and adjust to your stepping out. You need to step out and retain a strong pushing angle. That high cat does not have one. But I admit there are other ways -- just isolating that case.

I'm learning lots of, don't like to say evasive moves, but yielding moves in Ba Gua and E-chuan now. I don;t say evasive because I'm right there in your face, but I do not resist incoming power. Funny how this works.

Well, thought this would be an interesting topic but I see now its one of those things that can't be discussed online. We would all have to be together in a room and show and express our ideas. I love doing stuff like that.

Peace

[Mutant]

E-fist, i think its more about yin and yang than about whether you should be using a tiger claw or a crane beak.
I havent studied Hung Ga, but in the Shaolin 5 animals, which is very similar, beyond the form is the concept of the different animals and what can be learned and utilized from them, more abstractly. While the tiger is external, aggressive and forceful, the crane is more supple and about essence. The crane has a lot to do with being about to change mid technique as it is about yielding to a bulldozing type force and redirecting, using tendon and spring energy against muscular energy, using fa jing, whipping energy. The scenereo you outlined in your first post does not have to be a structurally weak situation for a crane fighter. More like changing the line with a possible counter kick or sweep and simultaneously delivering a bullwhip type strike, with the whole body, not just the hand or the arm. And the crane beak finger form does not have to be a strike with the finger tips to a pressure point to do damage, its as much about striking with the muscular part of the hand that is formed when your fingers take this form as well as striking with the forearm, but of course the end of the whip generates the most snap. And crane is not just about hopping away like the stereotype, it fights inside too. Crane deflections and blocks are much like Wing Chuns.
Together with the tiger its like yin and yang, you can run them down, pound and tear them up, or if need be, you have the ability to be evasive and yield with counterstriking and more internal type energy. Look at Tai Chi and Wing Chun....both arts highly influenced by Shaolin Crane.

[once ronin]

when asked, why should i learn from you? sifu frank yee took a telephone book and tore it in half with his crane beak. you could imagine him hitting your body or hands with his crane beak.

with that skill, it should answer all questions about animal forms only and whats missing in your development of hung gar.

[TenTigers]

one of my sifus blasted through my arms-and me with crane wing/crane beak-more like a fook sao. he did not simply pivot out of the way of my attack and whip a crane beak, he rooted and pivoted into my attack, blasting right through me.(he is also alot smaller than me) depends on the interpetation, the teacher, and the understanding of their art.

[fgxpanzerz]

The crane techniques are a lot like some of the bil gee attacks of wing chun. The ones in wing chun are smaller and faster.

[TenTigers]

um, snake section features biu-jee as seen in wing chun.not smaller, not faster-same.

[illusionfist]

Not all hok ying faht just contain crane's beak attacks. The crane's head is one of the most direct and lethal punches out there. I believe looking at the animal/element correlation is a clearer indicator of its strength than just the mere physical appearance. Its not all about just leaning and pecking.

Peace:D

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Doesn't the crane use a lot of palm tech's? & what are the wing attacks like, are they elbows or forearms? My friend said after tiger & when ur ready for the crane u learn the iron wings.

[jon]

GOLDEN ARMOR
lol im betting your friend and me share the same sifu, there is not to many teaching Hung in Sydney. Sifu Joseph Awad by chance?

There is certainly palm strikes and elbows within crane thinking and application. I havent learnt enough of it in form yet to comment on the pillar sets but ive done several short sets for crane and 'kind of' understand the mind.
It likes to use cutting and slicing blocks which produse a definate trauma on the attacking limb upon impact. These blocks also usualy whip the opponent in a particular direction which is then stategicaly taken advantage of.
One commen mistake with crane is to forget that any two handed movement can be done with single hands. Hence crane spreds wings can be a simple one handed crane deflection followed by anything you like. The trick is to keep the mind alive and active and the footwork light and agile. The crane is the opposite to the tiger (which i certainly know better) and is a VERY nice counter balance.
The impact force behind the blows is also outstanding and has a VERY deep sharp feel to being struck. I was hit on the top of the fist by my sifu and couldnt clench my hand again properly for ages.
Another big advantage to the crane in combat is its habbit of being more tricky and evasive which is not really in the Tigers spirit. The crane mind is elusive and sly and seeks to harras and tease as much as to distroy.
I cant use crane properly by itself but i can certainly use elements of its combat and mind.
I need to get my ass back into gear with my Hung training and start on Fu Hok:(

[Ray Pina]

That's hard core. Awesome.

I have also heard how good Mr. Yee's crane is. I did not have the pleasure of learning from him directly, I learned from one of his students of the 70's early 80's I believe. He also told me that his was the best crane he had seen, and I can see that, noting Mr. Yee's size. Crane is probbaly a valuable tool for him.

I would also like to note that I am not a total kook. I do understand that the gung fu does not exist in merely positioning one's hand like a crane or tiger, but in the concepts. It's always the concepts, and that was what I wanted to discuss.

It was just one of those things. Crane never fit well into my fighting. But I heard someone say once, what is your least favorite thing to practice? That's probbaly what you need the most work on. That was me with my crane. Not bad. Actually better then most in the class, but I was never comfortable to go to it in combat -- I will admit that.

Well, keep the tradition alive and functional. Maybe I'll see some of you at Mr. Yee's tournament this summer.