More on Sparring

[PJO]

Thanks for all the input on sparring but I still have some questions. I maybe wrong but I got the impression from some of the posts that you train in your art, then spar without using your art. I might have gotten the wrong impression but it sounds like "here's your art now don't use it when you spar". Does this mean you just apply your basics ie. footwork, center line or do you just basically do a kick and punch, kickboxing type of sparring. Thanks for any posts on this.

[Ray Pina]

I didn't get that impression, but from what I see out there I would say that is the rule rather then the exception -- especially for striking arts. Grapplers are not as guilty in this because they train by doing what they do, instead of doing forms.

I 100% train the way I fight. At my teacher's school, we but boxing gloves on and test our shielding against full power punching. Of coarse, this is still done in cooperation in that the person is aiming for your face and you know it, there is no juking. But you train the principle with full power. Same goes for everything. Jamming, counter hitting while shielding, rolling over, piercing through enery/attacks.

You have to train it if you're going to use it.

Doing forms and talking about how Monkey Takes the Peach this and that doesn't cut it. Get a monkey, get some peaches. See what happens. My point: When I played football the coach said soemthing very true: You play how you practice.

If one does not train for a real encounter one will not be ready for a real encounter. In training for a tournament their are some other things you can do. While gloves limit in some ways they help in others. One can get a little tricky with the shielding with the added padding and bulk gloves afford. But still, must train it at power and speed. Co-op yes, but not have one hold there hand out and freeze while you do A,B and C.

Keep it live and moving. Wear gear.

[chingei]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I didn't get that impression, but from what I see out there I would say that is the rule rather then the exception -- especially for striking arts. Grapplers are not as guilty in this because they train by doing what they do, instead of doing forms.

I 100% train the way I fight. At my teacher's school, we but boxing gloves on and test our shielding against full power punching. Of coarse, this is still done in cooperation in that the person is aiming for your face and you know it, there is no juking. But you train the principle with full power. Same goes for everything. Jamming, counter hitting while shielding, rolling over, piercing through enery/attacks.

You have to train it if you're going to use it.

Doing forms and talking about how Monkey Takes the Peach this and that doesn't cut it. Get a monkey, get some peaches. See what happens. My point: When I played football the coach said soemthing very true: You play how you practice.

If one does not train for a real encounter one will not be ready for a real encounter. In training for a tournament their are some other things you can do. While gloves limit in some ways they help in others. One can get a little tricky with the shielding with the added padding and bulk gloves afford. But still, must train it at power and speed. Co-op yes, but not have one hold there hand out and freeze while you do A,B and C.

Keep it live and moving. Wear gear.

good post

[shaolinboxer]

The goal of my art is takemusu aiki, the spontaneous generation of limitless technique. I know that sounds a bit pretentious, but the idea is you train through specific movements so that you assimilate the underlying pricipals, leading to the ability to abandon attempts at technique and simply allowing yourself to do the right thing at the right time.

With regards to striking and grappling, rolling and sparring are the best way to get at this kind of non-technique. For aikido, we use randori, aka juwaza. Tai chi has push hands...etc.

Remember that sparring is a limited encounter, but marital arts training should prepare you for encounters with no limit.

[red5angel]

I think e-fist is right on the money, you train how you want to fight. If you are going to spar, here is some quick advice, all the people I know who spar well with thier art, didnt start sparring right away. Most of them spent 8-14 months practicing before sparring. You do this so that when you do start sparring you arent going to reinforce bad habits. Also, spar with someone who is at a higher level then you. They can pick out your weaknesses and help you learn to avoid them.
I read somewhere else that you can also pick ourt a technique or two and spar them. Dont spar to loose just spar until you figure out how to make it work.

[Mutant]

Agreed w/ E-fist that you need to train for how you fight.
They should be very similar. But realize that under great pressure from a trained and skilled opponent, that you usually won't pull off your most intricate techniques in a beautiful fashion that resembles your coolest form, the technique may be ugly and mutated by the unique situation of the sparring or combat, but if you really know and train the technique and the technique is sound and effective, it can be there and working for you.
Your solid basics are what you fall back on. But good basics are the key and invaluable. They are not just punching and kicking, or 'kickboxing' but contain many of the most important principles in good kung fu, ie, footwork, root, concept of centerline, gates, energy, etc, etc, etc. So if you use these principals to be able to actually deliver a technique, even if its not some exotic strike, but a good solid straight punch or side kick or takedown to a resisting opponent, its still a world apart from a low level art that only has a hollow shell of techniques that may resemble this in a superficial way. A leopard fist combination might look a bit different with boxing gloves on, but the pattern, timing and power can still be there, for example.
But fighting how you train does not mean that your fighting should look like your doing forms, if thats how you train....but rather you should train the content to be applicable for fighting, not the other way around....

[red5angel]

Also, E-fist, I think the forms serve thier purpose, as long as you dont mistake them for actual fight training.
Also, to add to what Mutant said, Carl Dechiara II says that when you fight, the ugliest parts of your art come out not the best parts. I fyou train hard enough so that your ugliest parts are better then the other guys, well you can figure out the rest.

[Mutant]

yes, what red5angle said, start off very structured and slow, for a long time, or you will only corrupt your techniques and then will be just jumping around doing stupid stuff that doenst resemble your art....many bad schools make these mistakes and then they certainly are guilty of not sparring how they train and just doing sloppy stuff that doesnt contain much or any of their art.
The most successful fighting schools train exactly how they fight.

[Ray Pina]

Here's a good start: pick a lead hand.

From there, find an atumatic response to a straight right and right hook. Without changing a thing, stay where you are, find a response to a straight left and then a left hook.

Keep it simple. Like Mutant said, its not going to look Jet Li inspired. I think my stuff could pass for Navy Seal tactics, or what Navy Seal tactics should look like. Little movemnt, big return.

Now, after spending time with that. Go back. Same position. Stop the leading or first strike with your technqiue, now account for the inevidble second hand. No one should get off more then three strikes once you commit to engage.

Reason being: let's say at the most, out of instinct, you back away from the first. You strike/block the second to stop it and gain a connection, now wait for the follow up punch. Now he should be jammed. Your style should offer ways of doing this. Only after controlling, should to now use that first hand, which is usually forgotten about by the attacker when the attack registered a dud to hit.

Keep it simple! One of two go to techniques based on principles. Same for below. But kicking becomes more complex depending on the fighter. If he's TKD he is seeking to lead with a kick. Different from some seeking to kick after a bridge has been made. But same principles.

Also, I love chi sau. It is great for sticking skill and reading/leading a foe. But do not rely on this for your fight training. It is only one training aid. Fighting is different. Now there's someone really trying to take your head off. You need to become comfortable with this prospect and like any fear, the more you face it the less frighten it becomes as you get acquainted with it.

Time. Effort. That's gung fu for ya.

[red5angel]

I find this is mostly due to impatience of the western mind, I myself am a victim of it periodically. We want to see ourselves advance and we want to do the 'cool' stuff in our art. But I was at a seminar this winter with Carl Dechiara II, effectively my Sigung, he trained under Kenneth Chung in wing Chun. He trains aggressively and I saw his skill put to the test in a freindly contest with a few Wing Chun sifu around here, and his stuff worked. He starts his people off with basic rooting and and sensitivity drills for the first 12-14 months, but after that they get to start sparirng, etc... it really show how much the patience and training pays off!

[PJO]

Lots of good info, thanks! I've always said if I got jumped what I do may be ugly or may not look like Kung Fu but I'm gettin' out of there alive! We train with much of the same philosophies. Learn the techniques just to get a good foundation. What actually comes out may not look like any one technique but a combination of things. For us techniques just serve as a vocabulary. Once you've learned the words you can put them together in any way you want to communicate.

[xie li wong]

Learning to spar from KFO isn't the WISEST place to learn. Hope you plan on doing some hand to hand research before you start teaching your students to do it. Just a thought!

[rogue]

I'll conditionally disagree on posponing sparring. A properly supervised student can start light sparring right from the get go. A great way to break bad habits is to get tagged a few times. Drop your guard someone taps your head, you don't pay attention someone will kick or punch you in the gut. Same type of philosophy that grapplers use, learn it and put it right to work.

[Black Jack]

What Rogue said, why put it off, start as soon as possible under quality supervision.

BTW,

Rogue killed a rabid brown bear once with a a flying sidekick, it was on the news, don't mess with him, a real lunatic:D

[nospam]

...do you just basically do a kick and punch...

indeed.

nospam.
:cool:

[rogue]

Well Black Jack it wasn't really a rabid brown bear but a weiner dog in heat. And I really didn't kill it with a side kick, it was humping my leg and I was just trying to shake it off. Finally those fancy TKD kicks came in handy!

[respectmankind]

i really don't use any style from my art for other than gaining desirable traits, such as body mechanic knowldge. i am not going into any fight using a **** style, just what is clear as the most effectiant at the moment. screw style when fighting. now grappling is different, hehe, much.

[JWTAYLOR]

Now I know your full of sh!t.

There is no technique in TKD that would dislodge a weiner dog in heat. Maybe a .50 cal at 0 distance, maybe. Even so, I bet he get's his "shot" off before you do.

JWT

[rogue]

Since you're from Texas I'll type slow JWT. TKD isn't some made up art like Kempo, TKD is an art where form follows function. The kicks in TKD developed from having native breeds of dogs that are both ***** and tenacious. It wasn't unusual to walk down the street and suddenly be the love object of a pack of korean pooches.
One day a man named Toi Il Poodle(the 4th degree dog kicking hyung is named after him) was attacked by a pack of canine Romeos, in a fit of inspiration (and panic) instead of trying to shake the hounds of love off of his legs he used what later became the roundhouse. Upon reaching home he added the rest of the basic kicks which became the core of TKD. Later he would develope the the 360 and 570 degree kicks for use against the dreaded Weiner dogs.
Side Note: Toi was once attacked by a pack waiting outside of a restaurant, while dealing with them several were kicked onto the grill. Well as they say they rest is history!

[apoweyn]

i have no freaking idea what this thread's actually about, but i've been laughing hysterically for the past few minutes. so frankly, i don't care.


stuart b.

[ratman201]

so have I:D


- Existence is the greatest joke god ever told. Have the good sense to find the humor in it.:D -