Kiai in cma.

[Mr Punch]

Similar question to the zanshin/mushin one: (how) are kiai used in your cma? What's the Chinese for it?

[shaolinboxer]

Same as in JMA.

[Budokan]

Unless you're competing in one of those karaddy tournaments you see on ESPN, then you kiai all the time as if you're trying to pass a pineapple through your rectum...

[wu_de36]

that is an unpleasant visual.

[shaolinboxer]

Yes, and all of your forms end in a dramtic pose with your hands shaking.

I must say, those karaddy tournies make for great entertainment when they air around 2 am.

[Ray Pina]

I was uncomfotable using a kia when I wa sstudying Issin-Ryu in my younger years. Naturally I just kind of clenched my lips tigher and did an inner: Mmmmmnnnnnpppphhhh when I needed that extra boost.

I understand how my sensei argued that kia can break an aponant metally, but I wanted my technique to do that.

Now I kind of still do what I esed to do but no longer clench the lips. I'm much more calm and relaxed fighting. I make sure the tongue is on the roof and the teach are clenched but not too tighjtly -- just right. I send that extra power boost and focus to where its needed when insides I'm doing Mmmmmmnphhhhh. That's usually the point I transition from deflection to hitting. Or breaking through outright.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Hi, Heh, Ha and Huhn are used in Taiji depending on what direction you want to issue in.

[TenTigers]

each sound affects the body and issuing of power differently. If you hold your breath, you drive with the parking break on. The sounds are a guide, and they can become almost subaudible when mastered. not simply used to upset your opponent-alot of american second generation karate guys never quite got the gist of this.

[jon]

Hung Ga uses sounds but we dont simply kiai or yell. The sounds are very exact and the execution comes along with particular breathing methods. I only know the tiger ones so far but ive seen a little of the crane sounds demonstrated as well.

There are also various tones that we use in Chi gung training and strength training which vibrate different internal organs. The sounds are hard to master and i still cant do it properly but i can certainly feel the effect they have.
Ive also felt the effect these sounds have on various structures particual tiger grips and some striking concepts and the effect can be staggering to say the least.
I only wish i understood it enough to explain it :(

Although I must look and sound pretty wierd when i train, growling and clawing away:rolleyes:

[anton]

In CLF (and a lot of CMA) there is not just one universal "kiai". There are different sounds for different strikes. This, from what I understand is about different methods of issuing energy.

[SifuAbel]

In northern styles there are is no shouting. The breath is normal and steady, as in a runners pace. The strikes and movements are rapid and frequent, and moves very broadly.

In southern styles, shouting is used because of the shorter and more abrupt compact power that is produced. Shouting in a sharp burst from the tan tien(diaphram) collapses the lungs and hardens the abdominal wall producing a very sturdy brace for the impact. Hybrid styles usually tend to include the shouting.

Don't get me started on the tournament yelling. I just saw the US Open AGAIN on ESPN. The BS shaking and grimmacing reminded me of the winner at a cement eating contest. And whats with all the karate guys doing wushu elements in forms? Whats the deal? At least a wushu guy won for his efforts. He powdered his hands so they would smoke when he kicked them. The kicker,pardon the pun, was that he added elements from the karate guys routines. If my eyes rolled any further back; they would go full circle. :rolleyes:

[dezhen2001]

My Sigong once told me about a style of qigong solely based on using different sounds to connect to different organs. It's called '6 Healing Sounds Qigong' or something like that. Not part of our style anyway. Quite interesting that you use different sounds in some MA as well...

I wish i coulda done some Wushu elements in my old Karate tournament days. The most acrobatic i got was doing Unsu or Kanku Sho as i studied Shotokan :p

david

[Yung Apprentice]

I remember in my first year of TKD, I felt weird and uncomfortable when I had to kiai.(If you thought Karate was bad, you should here some of the yells in TKD) My second year, I only used it as a way to psyc myself up when sparring.

A lot of ppl in TKD would yell "US" when sparring...it was weird.

[old jong]

I still remember when I was in tkd!...All the guys were shouting something like ASSSSSOOOO! when kicking. To me it sounded like " asshooole" ! ... Imagine a room full of guys shouting that all the times! ;)

[sticky fingers]

sometimes I **** when I overexert, does that count?

[sticky fingers]

I said f.a.r.t

[Yung Apprentice]

He said F A R T and his name is sticky fingers!


EEEEWWWWWWW!!!!:D

[Jimbo]

It's strange the new types of kiais they come up with in open tournaments like that shown on ESPN. Besides the people who stand there yelling and shaking for half a minute before the form even starts, like they're giving birth to Godzilla Jr., they yell way too much, and too long after every strike. Also, some of them have kiais that just sound like "aaassssaahhh!" I think that might have started in the early '80s with Ernie Reyes Jr.

There is a husband/wife team who runs a highly successful kenpo karate school in L.A., and after each forms competition, their voices are ruined and hoarse for a couple days afterward because they really emphasize the meaningless over-screaming. I would imagine over time this type of training would cause irreversible damage to the body.

[dezhen2001]

it's funny watching forms competitions... the focus and intent needs to be there for only momenteraly. The shout doesn't even need to be loud (it can also be silent), yet everyone shouts away! No wonder they're hoarse after performing! :D

david

[Justa Man]

yea, there was this cat who came to our kung fu school once, and he walked through the place saying "oos" to everyone.
"oos, fellas, oos!" wtf is that?
i do the hhuumpphh with the mouth closed, teeth touching, toungue at roof but just to train the dan tien. i may do it in fighting only to distract my opponent, but that's it.

[dezhen2001]

'oss' is just a general term of respect used in JMA. They say it can mean 1000 different things, but who knows? :D

As long as the focus and intent is there when you do your movements, there doesn't need to be a huge shout accompanying it imo :)

david

[anton]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
My Sigong once told me about a style of qigong solely based on using different sounds to connect to different organs. It's called '6 Healing Sounds Qigong' or something like that. Not part of our style anyway. Quite interesting that you use different sounds in some MA as well...


Sifu was trying to explain the concept of Qi once in class. So he did some internal form really slowly making all these different sounds (I was quite young so I thought it was funny). After that he came up to a student and told him to stand in bow-and-arrow stance and resist (this dude used to be a weightlifter so he was quite heavy and his leg muscles were huge), and got another guy to stand behind him (to make sure he didn't break the mirrors). Then he put his hand lightly on the guys chest, he stood there for a few seconds, totally relaxed, then his hand kinda twitched and the guy got knocked back!!

[dezhen2001]

Internal power is something that really just astounds me! I'm trying to get my head around that at the moment.
The amount of skill and dedication some people have is just something inspiring (hopefully one day i'll get there!) :)

Back on topic: does anyone study a qigong style or gong fu style that uses sounds in any way? Even a non-chinese style (apart from the typical kiai way that is)

david

[dezhen2001]

thx for the reply Guohuen :)

The style my Sigong talked about was Buddhist i think? This is really interesting... I'll ask my Sifu more about this when i see him next week :cool:

david

[Shaolindynasty]

My first sifu taught me a set of exercises he called the "five healing sounds of qigong", he learned them from Kwan Saihung. Anyway each organ has a corresponding movement and sound which exercise the organ, when you do all five it's supposed to balance the bodys system.

Aside from that he would encourage "kiais" when we got tired during sparring to help keep focus and intent(it worked) we don't yell kiai but we use the sound "Ha" which is pretty genertic in CMA. I've seen allot of systems do it.

Anyway on an interesting note I notice if I use the "ha" strait from the begining I get tired faster but if I start using it when I get tired I last longer than I do without it. Just my experience.

[Budokan]

The problem with these ridiculous kiais in tournaments is that they are so long, so pronounced, and so over-the-top, they lose what effectiveness they were meant to have in the first place, i.e. focus your power onto an impact point. It's not impressive to watch somebody KIAI for thirty seconds, shaking his limbs, face twisted into a grotesque mask--it's just silly and embarrassing.

What upsets me the most, though, is that apparently this over-acting impresses the judges. Which says everything you need to know about their questionable credentials and the ultimate worth of these tournaments.....

[TjD]

i think its cuz people watched too much dragon ball z

if you want blonde hair, get some dye :)


peace
trav

[TjD]

however, i do grunt when playing basketball, and need to push out that little extra bit of speed while running down the court

or in the gym when i just need a little extra in that lift
it seems to work :)

however... i cant imagine myself doing that while doing any form or anything else in wing chun; i dont think your supposed to use your muscles like that (at least in wing chun)

peace
trav

[Mr Punch]

Thanks for all the replies. Finally got back so now I can ramble for a bit!

I asked cos I'm interested in two things:

1) The physical effect on your own body;
2) The internal/energy projection dynamic.

Of course, I figure they overlap.

In aikido we were always taught to breathe as naturally as possible but to aim for breathing in to absorb the attack and breathing out to send it away again. So, inward action, inward breath, outward action outward breath. And no discernible kiai, though in practice, some people gave an 'oos'. Of course, skilled practitioners REALLY could pass pineapples through their rectums (recta?), with damage limitation through the use of the internal technique shirigatana (loosely translated as 'ass-blade'), to cut the pineapple into slices and stack them neatly:D.

BTW, the 'oos' is a general greeting in Japanese for your real manly men. It is also a goodbye. In some ma schools it is a strong 'hai' ('yes'/'understood'/'that is the case'). It is also used as a kiai in many situations, including focusing your energy for lifting really heavy things such as mikoshi (' 'portable' shrines') (it is also chanted in some mikoshi festivals as you carry them when it often gains an extra syllable in exertion, making it sound funnily like 'uso', the Japanese word for lying crap:eek:. Some old men use it when they sit down. As a kiai in ma, it often becomes an 'sss' sound. In that case it is useful for keeping the stomach muscles in a state of relaxed preparation, and setting the tongue and jaw so you don't bite the end of your tongue off when you get chinned.

OK lecture over, sorry for rambling AGAIN :( don't get much time on the board.

Now here's another coupla parts of the question: in my first two wing chun schools we never used kiai (what is the chinese name??) but were told to breathe normally. Now I'm being taught a sound like 'sut', with the 't' disappearing into a kind of backwards 'oos' sound, and a stronger one sounding more like 'sOt'. If you don't get is right, it's also like a strangulated 'oos': kind of like a steroidal snake on crack :D! Other than the reasons I already mentioned, does anyone have any references/knowledge about the specifics of these sounds?

And guohen and others who answered to do with the six chigung sounds... is anything like 'oos'/'sut' used in them? I imagine the sounds to be more like the 'aum' ('om') meditation used to lead the chi ('prana'?) from the earth chakra up to the air/void chakra and back down to the tanden... (how many bloody languages can I use badly in one sentence:rolleyes::)?!.

BTW The founder of modern aikido (Ueshiba) belonged to a religion which believes that the universe was created by a cosmic vibration (kotodama) of the sound 'suu'... kind of a Big Bang, or as maybe Sticky Fingers would have it, a big cosmic ripper! What a kiai!!!:D :cool:

[Kristoffer]

we dont shout or yell. I see it as a sign of weakness, showing emotion. U 'should' be calm or whatever but shut the hell up.