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Kempo Guy
03-30-2002, 04:47 PM
Don't know if many of you have experience with both Judo and Ba Gua on this board. I know that some/many lineages of Ba Gua have a lot of throwing movements in it's curriculum.

For those of you who have had some experience with both, what are the advantages/disadvantages of Ba Gua throws vs. Judo (besides the sportive aspect of Judo)?

KG

Ka
03-30-2002, 07:53 PM
Hey there
I can not speak for judo but have had a bit of experience with jujitsu stlye throw and my BGZ has many takedown/throws.
I see a major difference being the takedown is a continuation of a breakbalance and directs the opponent into the ground ending in a lock or break.Rather then a projection throw(as in tossing the guy in the air) which may or may not give the opponent time to recover/roll etc.
I may well be talking about a different thing here,as I don't really consider what we do as throws but rather controlled takedowns.
just that is what we concentrate on.

Reference to Genbukan and Bujinkan
I recently had a play (and made some friends) with some bujinkan people,One simiularity with the BGZ school that I train at is there use of variations,or henka(s??) I think they call it.We do much the same thing(using a different power gen) and try for variation on variation.Also there focus on relaxation and fluid motion.
found it all very interesting

dedalus
03-31-2002, 12:16 AM
I have a good mate who's a competitive judoka, and we've occasionally compared the similarities and differences of the throws in the two styles. The main conclusion we came to is that many of the bagua throws are designed to end in significant injury.

Whereas we found most judo throws relatively easy to fall with (at least as my friend practices them), we discovered (with some terror!) that there are several bagua throws in the Yan Dehua system that control the opponent too thoroughly for them to be able to roll out. We discovered at least two that amounted to pile-drives (one which controlled the knee, to prevent the spine from curving) and a half dozen more that contained elbow destructions on the way down.

Those points not withstanding, I'm not so keen on the throwing aspect of bagua. I'm glad that what there is in there is direct and deadly, but strikes seem to me to be more expedient and to offer less exposure. I wouldn't like to get into a wrestling match because I bugger up the throw!

In deference to judo, I should also note that my training partner was quite good at preventing the throws when he knew what was coming. He was also quite good at adding wrist locks and the like, although I consider that pretty low-mortality (certainly in comparison to the BGZ!).

From the judo perspective, he also though that BGZ balance was more liable to be upset by a judoka (of course, he was assuming that he'd still be awake when he got his hands on me :D)

Kevin Wallbridge
03-31-2002, 09:58 AM
I've had the opportunity to touch some Judoka. Every one of them leaned forward as the engaged so that was pretty much were the contention ended. If you give up the vertical dimension this creates tension in the spine that is only about supporting the head and acts like a brake on the body's potential power. So I'd say Baguazhang structure is generally better. When one of these Judoka tries to throw they come up out of the ground because so much of their power was given away before the touch.

As for throwing itself I agree with dedalus that the way Bagua approaches throwing leads to less opportunities for the opponent to survive. In sport Judo you aren't actually trying to damage the skeleton. As well, I haven't touched a Judoka who could manifest short power and they all seem a bit surprised by how hard they can be hit while at very short range.

When groundfighting I think Bagua if I want to disengage, but I think Taijiquan if I want to end it there.

dedalus
03-31-2002, 07:09 PM
Hi Kevin,

That last point you made caught my attention... could you elaborate some more?

I agree with you about the forward weighting, too - it's also a perfect knee-break opportunity.

Kempo Guy
04-01-2002, 09:06 AM
Kevin,

I was curious about the last statement you made as well.

"When groundfighting I think Bagua if I want to disengage, but I
think Taijiquan if I want to end it there."

Although I have very little experience in Ba Gua (I currently practice Tai Ji), however I have recently been playing around with grappling (both some Judo and BJJ).

What I have found is that ground fighting is very similar to "Tai Ji push hands" in terms of the sensitivity required in order to get in the postition to choke or submit the opponent.

I'm uncertain if this is what you're referring to but this is my current experience with grappling.

KG

Kevin Wallbridge
04-01-2002, 02:34 PM
What I meant by my statement "Bagua to disengage and Taiji if I want to end it there" was in terms of their relative approaches to the point of contact.

I like to compare them to different tactical styles of troop use. Bagua is like using cavalry and Taiji is like using infantry. Bagua uses rapid deployment and quick flanking, punctuated by the occasional charge. Taiji takes ground and holds it, like fighting from a fortified town (Chenjiaguo was fortified, hmm). While not absolute, these are midsets that I employ when my body is in one of these arts. [I also practice Xinyi, and that is all panzers and stukas. Just carpet bomb the ground.]

So when on the ground and thinking Bagua, I use the point of contact to spin out and away for redeployment, and to me that means back to the standing bridge. When on the ground and thinking Taiji, I keep what I acquire (follow, join, stick, adhere) and finish the engagement there.

Both of these require short power, for breaking open the grapple to disengage (Bagua), and for cracking the opponent's structure to minimize the time it takes to finish on the ground (Taiji).

dedalus
04-01-2002, 08:08 PM
Interesting.

I have never considered bagua or taiji to be appropriate for groundfighting, so I would always look to disengage. Perhaps you could again elaborate on how it is possible to use short power when you're not standing on your feet. I can't imagine generating anything substantial without that root... but I'd love to know how if its possible!

BTW, I love your analogies :D

Kevin Wallbridge
04-01-2002, 10:46 PM
dedalus, my feeling is that what is needed for short power is a root. When in intimate contact on the ground I have found the combination of whatever part of my body is on the earth and the connection to my opponent to be sufficient root to generate this power. If the torso is connected then it can fire. All the better if the power is generated off of the opponent's own body.

I also feel that Taiji's focus on mid-range grappling is relevant no matter what the body's attitude. Beng bars the close range fighter from entering deeply; and Song keeps the pin-and-hit fighter from getting away. As well, there are lot of unusual Chin-na that emerge on the ground. These Chin-na come out of continuous conection and spiral jin.

dedalus
04-01-2002, 11:36 PM
Cheers for the info. Do you know of any resources datailing the techniques you've mentioned (including the ground chin-na)? I'm happy to mess around and experiment with my training partners, but I don't know that I could find anyone to teach me this stuff personally... I've never even heard of taiji groundfighting before! How or where did you pick it up?

Kevin Wallbridge
04-02-2002, 04:21 PM
Sorry, no resources. I trained for three years with Sam Masich in Yang style push-hands. Sam is a student of Brian Gallager, and actually began with Brian as a Judoka. One day at the break in a seminar Sam was giving, a high-level competative Judoka (Renee Tse) asked Sam about how it was applied on the ground. I watched Sam pretzelize her for about 1/2 hour, and I paid close attention. Then later I simply applied the ideas to my own practice.

To get into the weird Chin-na it helps if you are able to be very free form about how Chin-na emerge in standing contexts. I have found that when I think "stick to redirect" while I'm connected most locks just happen.

I used to teach/lead a class where we worked out Bagua applications for three hours every Saturday. In the end we really only looked at two changes from Fu Zhensong's Bagua and we studied a lot of Chin-na in this context. This experience has been the basis for all of my subsequent joint-locking and throwing practice. So I recommend drilling a few "techniques" until the body understands how to respond in the laboratory setting, then let everything go and don't even look for locks. Just let them emerge.

Shooter
04-02-2002, 04:55 PM
dedalus, this thread may be of some interest to you:

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessages.cfm?TID=8276&V=1678&P=79&FID=1

Water Dragon
04-02-2002, 06:02 PM
Kevin, you should check out BJJ, you'd find it interesting.

On the ground, the center is contained in the upper torso, around heart level. When you have guard on someone, you manipulate that center around a "revolving hinge" that runs along their spine. When in a top position, your goal is to keep your bodyweight centered on this center to smother him. Attacks are made exactly the opposite of Taiji. Instead of driving into the center to attack, you remove a part of the body from the center and then attack it. This way the limb has no means of resistance.

The root in BJJ is maintained in the hips as they are your connection to the earth. Control the hips and control the root. "Rolling" is basically hardcore, freestyle push hands on the ground. It may cause you to see a huge amount of training drills found in your Tui Shou, it did for me.

dedalus
04-02-2002, 11:17 PM
Shooter, Kevin - thanks.