Sparring: Why wait?

[rogue]

Why wait 4 to 6 months to start sparring? Heck why wait at all?

My opinion on why not to wait.
I've found it refreshing to work with untrained people, shows where I've grown too accustomed to my fellow students. I've also found that instead of building bad habits it actually helps the learning of proper movement and technique, (sooner or later you get sick and tired of getting hit). I believe it's also good to learn that in the martial arts nothing is free, if I want to hit you I'll more than likely get hit at least some myself.

So what are your reasons for not crossing hands (dynamic sparring not drills which have their place) from the start.

[yuanfen]

Nice to know your opinion. Obviously you are not into wing chun at any depth- atleast yet.

[mun hung]

Why wait to start sparring??? Because if you don't learn to at least use basic applications first - it ends up looking like TKD. :D

Maybe a better question would be - how long before you can actually fight with it?

[raving_limerick]

Isn't there an issue of fitness and/or conditioning with sparring as well? I most certainly wouldn't want to spar if I wasn't in good enough shape, just like I wouldn't want to go out and play a full game of soccer without first building up my endurance. I also think that technique should be ingrained first before sparring, but once the basics are down, I don't see why anyone shouldn't spar.

Anyway, just my take on the matter.

[chi sau]

how do you get good at sparring?
by sparring
once you have a few basic techniques in your arsenal you should start sparring its the only way to learn wing chun for real
doing the forms slowly will not help you defeat the guy on the street if it ever happens

[kungfu cowboy]

I think you need to wait until your body has internalized the basic moves first, otherwise you won't be using them when you try to spar. You will probably just be flopping around with bad form. I think in a real fight when you lose some of your fine motor ability you need to rely on heavily trained perfectly formed basics from which the situational stress will strip away perfection, leaving you with hopefully at least half decent moves. Of course, the more relaxed you can be the closer you will be to the ideal.

[old jong]

I think that it is a particularity of Wing Chun! I made the experience with students and I can say that:The more (free type!) sparring there is = the less Wing Chun I see!...So I think it should be kept minimal compared to regular Wing Chun drills.
I believe that Wing Chun goes a lot better with fighting without mercy than sparring.The close distance used in Wing Chun is not very propice to "exchanges of techniques" like other styles do.This is where our training in chi sau and various drills pay us back! We learn and train to :Stick to what comes and attack idealy at the same time.This is very difficult to do in friendly sparring so this is why we mostly spar in predetermined roles; attacker/defender.I know it sound strange in an era when everybody wants to test/prove themselves in a "dynamic environment" and with "actively resisting opponents" MMA style but our way works for us!...Why reinventing the wheel?...;)

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by old jong
IThe more (free type!) sparring there is = the less Wing Chun I see!...So I think it should be kept minimal compared to regular Wing Chun drills.

Well Said OJ!

[JasBourne]

We spend almost a year perfecting the basics, building more and more complexity and control into the movements before we begin sparring. The difference between this method and simply sparring from the outset is quite clear. Those that spar before having fully internalized the basics look and move like every other thug out there - sloppy, flailing arms and legs, wasted movement, dissipated energy, lack of accuracy, leaving themselves wide open for strikes. Those that take the time to learn the basics correctly first move and succeed quite easily as wingchunners.

The sparring in my kwoon is not an 'exchange of techniques'. It is is fast, furious, and dirty. It is wingchun.

To the fella who said "once you have a few basic techniques in your arsenal you should start sparring its the only way to learn wing chun for real doing the forms slowly will not help you defeat the guy on the street if it ever happens", I urge you to please take up another style of martial arts.

[old jong]

"To the fella who said "once you have a few basic techniques in your arsenal you should start sparring its the only way to learn wing chun for real doing the forms slowly will not help you defeat the guy on the street if it ever happens", I urge you to please take up another style of martial arts."... Now,That's my good old Jas!...;)

[Alpha Dog]

Your Wing Chun will only reflect what you bring to it. If your study is driven by impatience, it will show in your abilities.

<Bowing, leaves the forum>

[Merryprankster]

*Insert different art perspective here*

First day wrestling--sparred.
First day BJJ--sparred.
First day boxing--sparred.
First day Thai Boxing--sparred.

You're telling me that you can't pair a newbie up with an advanced student for 5 or 10 minutes, based on fitness level, for a light/medium sparring match to show him "what it's all about?" The newbie won't get hurt because the advanced student/instructor has good control, and the advanced student probably won't get hurt because they're good enough to defuse untrained attacks

I got thrashed by a purple belt 2 weeks into BJJ (I'd BEEN sparring for two weeks, thanks) who I outweigh by 50 lbs. Most fun I ever had losing. It was like riding a wave, I powerless and laughed myself silly about it.

I don't buy it. I certainly don't buy the various comments about "It's clear you haven't reached any understanding of WC or you need to do some other art." Horse Pocky. He just has a different opinion.

[old jong]

Wing Chun has it's own ways!...Why is that bugging people from other styles?...Just do what you feel is good for you. ;)

[yuanfen]

No one is asking you to buy it merryprankster. You keep operating froma different paradigm.If a real wc master
"attacked" a newbie--it would be needlessly showing off-
and the newbie and most spectators wouldnt know what happened. No wing chun learning would take place.
The examples form sports that you mention dont apply to
good wing chun.

[Merryprankster]

Missing the point...

Rogue asked why not spar right away, then said, he sees nothing wrong with that way of doing things.

He was then told that he obviously hadn't gotten very far in WC.

I'm asking "Why does a difference of opinion on training methods translate directly into 'you don't know jack?"

If a school feels that several months or even a year are necessary to grind in the basics, that's fine. I'm trying to ascertain why a couple of responses were "Thanks, but you don't know what you are talking about." Rather than "Here's why."

yuan--if an advanced student can't "take it easy," on a newbie and/or deflect incoming attacks then he's not much good. As long as its understood that this is a learning experience for everybody, then there shouldn't be a problem. If the newbie gets mad and starts becoming overaggressive, it should be no problem for the advanced student to tone things down a notch, by physically controlling the situation (accidents do happen, I understand). If the person persists, you don't want them back anyway that kind of ego ridden drivel has no place in the school.

Now, first day might be a little much, that, I'll grant.

[JasBourne]

Merryprankster, since this is the Wing Chun forum, the natural assumption is that we are discussing wing chun, not all styles in a generalized manner. In wing chun (not all styles), precision and accuracy are paramount, not optional. The basics are drilled over a period of time in order to achieve the degree of accuracy required for mastery.

If a style does not require this, then throwing someone into sparring right away is not an issue. In wing chun, it is. Throwing someone into sparring before they have achieved a good degree of control will simply foster very bad wingchun and inhibit the growth of the practicioner, rather than improve their skill.

Example: you learn to run by skipping. Will you cover ground quickly? Yes. Will you win races? Doubtful. As yuanfen said, you are operating on a different paradigm, that's all. There are many styles where sparring right away is a superb way of progressing. Wing Chun is not one of those styles. :)

[Merryprankster]

I understand that.

What I don't understand is why, when rogue suggested that sparring should happen right away, and gave his reasons why, he was told he didn't know anything, basically.

Hardly answers the question.

As unclear as *I* personally was, I was just trying to say "hey, these OTHER arts spar pretty quickly, so rogue has a legit question." Just because it might be an apples to oranges comparison in somebody's mind doesn't mean that the question itself is invalid or a bad one to ask.

Jas--you DID answer the question he asked. I think that's pretty cool--yet, you disagreed with Old Jong's opinion and in doing so you told him to find another art--with the implication that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Two people, same art, different opinions on training. You'll have different camps in each--no big deal. Different, certainly, but absolutely wrong? Sure there are extremes at either end that are obviously not right, but there is a lot of room in the middle for variation without somebody being completely wrong.

If only one way is "right," that smacks of pseudo-religious dogma, vice a living art.

[JasBourne]

you disagreed with Old Jong's opinion and in doing so you told him to find another art

No no, I mostly agree with old jong all the time - I was disagreeing with ummm I think the name was "chi sau". His statement "doing the forms slowly will not help you defeat the guy on the street if it ever happens" is contrary to ALL winchun precepts, which state quite clearly that doing the forms slowly is the A#1 way to get good enough to defeat the guy on the street. My personal opinion is if he truly believes his statement, he really should find another style, because he will always find WC too, shall we say, perplexing. ;)

[Alpha Dog]

And Everything is Truly Beautiful, In its Own Way.....

Just do your own thing, Man! Personalize!!

Just don't call it Wing Chun
;)

[Merryprankster]

Alpha--

There is only one right way to train WC? No variations exist in either training or execution?

I find that difficult to believe seeing as instructors of arts in the same SCHOOL have variations on exactly how they do something.

Jas--WHY do you feel that way about Old Jong's approach? Do you feel it's rushing things? Or that it doesn't ever get you to a better understanding of "Wing Chun?"

[JasBourne]

Merry, one more time - I was not disagreeing with Old Jong, ok? :)

I believe I explained why I disagreed with the guy (who was not old jong) pretty clearly. What puzzles you still?

[reneritchie]

MP - Wing Chun is different in kind from the arts you list. You need to learn to move in a very different way than how most people typically move. Learning the alignment, the mechanics, etc. takes time and most people (there are always exceptions), if they spar too early, will build compensations into reflex, not WCK. This is why, at tournaments and such, you often see WCK people sparring like kickboxers, and not like WCK fighters. (And, FWIW, I didn't do randori for a while after starting judo).

JAS- WCK doesn't talk about being "slow". It talks about being "soft and relaxed". Doing the form slowly means nothing. Doing it correctly means everything. (IMHO)

Rgds,

RR

[Alpha Dog]

There are various roads that one can take (most likely in conjunction) toward WC proficiency. But as others have said here and from my own experience, WC requires that one go through an often slow process of internalization before it can be used effectively. Attempting to rush it will only lead to bad Wing Chun. Some have rushed WC training and still become very accomplished fighters, but that has more to do with their own talents and knowledge of other styles -- in other words, it isn't WC that made them good, and what they are doing isn't WC.

I said earlier that a bit of supervised sparring isn't a bad thing, because it gives the student a sense of what is to come and the ability to visualize what WC techiques will do in real situations -- being able to visualize this assists in the internalization process.

There's a big gap between what I just wrote, however, and methods that try to teach WC from a sparring perspective foremost, which (to steal a phrase from Sabu) in my humblest of opionions, won't teach someone to be able to USE Wing Chun effectively.

That was long and boring. I will never do this much writing again.

[yuanfen]

You still seem to be hung up on "sparring".You seem to be repeating yourself with the same old comparisons with bjj and other sports in your posts.... but it takes a while (about 18 months of dedication IMO of practise and learning from a good wc teacher) to fight the wing chun way. Without developing
fairly unique wing chun motions and reflexes---wing chun sparring would become like common sparring- punch, bounce, dive, throw,
kick etc....Those who have seriously chosen wing chun are interested in the unique features of the art. People who are not interested in developing the auto reflex sytem of wing chun and are interested in sparring fairly early should exit the art. Top flight southern mantis people are also similar in that regard. Wing chun does have testing under pressure with controls. I seriously doubt that you have seen it. The problem is that many McKwoons havent seen it either.

[cobra]

My take is; if you are taking lessons in WingTsun, then you want to learn how to fight. Or, at least to fight more efficiently. Then let your instructor teach you how to fight and give your body and mind time to internalize it, then worry about sparring. Sparring, especially in the earlier stages causes you to be overly tense which will keep you from learning sensitivity. I speak from experience on this. In WingTsun, the teaching method is as important as the principles, concepts and applications that go along with it. You can get all the info, but if your body and brain aren't conditioned to use it then it's worthless!! This way takes time, be patient and try not to change the art, but learn it. If this is too much for you to comprehend and you can't wait, then go do TKD or BJJ. As for me I will always study WingTsun. As long as I live I will be a student, that should give you an idea of what there is to learn from this art. It gets better all the time!!!

[Merryprankster]

yuan--now THAT was an answer. And you're right, I'm absolutely looking at it from the perspective of other arts. Is it so wrong to have the precepts challenged from time to time?

Same with Alpha, and cobra, and rene.

Jas--I'm sorry. I didn't read your post carefully enough. My apologies.

I can disagree with all of you (and to some extent I do...but not entirely), but the chorus is:

It takes time to learn to move like WC. It must be ingrained before you try to spar with it or you will revert back to "something else," that ISN'T WC. Therefore, sparring right away is a bad idea.

Heck of a lot more informative than:


Nice to know your opinion. Obviously you are not into wing chun at any depth- atleast yet

So maybe he's not... but that answer sure doesn't explain anything.

[CanadianBadAss]

Traditional WC training is like learning how to white water kayak in a calm lake. You learn the principles, the techniques (paddling, what to do if you tip over, ECT...). So you're basically equipped with all the tools required to be a successful white water kayaker (except experience of course, but that's what sparring is for). But remember it takes a bigger man to run away then to kayak out of a situation. Kayaking should be your last resort.

Sparring would be like going down one of those raging rivers, except the rocks sticking out would have padding on them, and you would have an air tank or something on so you could breathe underwater. So you're pretty much safe.

But think about it, on your first day, they send you down this river. You're still getting smacked and bashed around, with no time to think, it just keeps coming at you, and with no idea what to do you'll probably go into shock or something. And rogue said something like "if you keep sparring eventually you'll have to learn to use the techniques". So if you send the guy down the river a couple more times, he might start to get used to it, start to use some techniques. But they won’t be WC techniques, just inefficient crap he’s forced to develop on his own. So in the end you’ll have a kayaker(fighter) who has had these bad habbits forced into his head.
Even if he spends some time training the traditional way, every time he spars the bad habbits are reinforced. He will always be a low level a WC player, and after being smacked into those rocks enough he might even start being able to handle it, develop it into his own little kick boxing style, he’ll join ucf, say that he studies WC, get his ass kicked and give us a bad name.

[old jong]

"Even if he spends some time training the traditional way, every time he spars the bad habbits are reinforced. He will always be a low level a WC player, and after being smacked into those rocks enough he might even start being able to handle it, develop it into his own little kick boxing style, he’ll join ucf, say that he studies WC, get his ass kicked and give us a bad name."
That says it all!....

[Sharky]

Wing chun is not free style fighting. What i mean is if you do say, kickboxing, then when you spar, you can nearly do whatever you want and it will "look" kick boxery. Ahem.

But wingchun is a TOTAL way that you gotta stand, fight, punch, step, etc. If you don't know how to STEP, or to STAND, then what you are doing is not wing chun.

It is a very " anal " style in teh sense that if you do boxing (like me) then you can get in a ring, and you just have to punch, whatever way you can (ok no backfists etc). But wign chun you have specific stances before you can punch, different SPECIFIC strikes. And if you don't FIRST learn how to do them, you won't be doing wing chun, and so what's the point in going to a wing chun class?

Cheers.

[Sharky]

Forgot to add:

so, yeah, when you train for a few months, how to step, how to PUNCH, then these different and at first "unnatural" ways of moving become NATURAL, so that when you spar, you have programmed yourself to use wing chun.

hehe, that's the idea, usually it just looks like mess :)

OJ summed it up nicely in his first post. Wing chun honestly DOES work, but it just isn't THAT suited to sparring. Wing chun schools MUST spar though.

[red5angel]

In my experience, I have seen two things demonstrated that back up what people are saying here. I was with my first instructor, and he was very much about technique, and real experience, and sparring and all that. It was fun, and it was cool, I had a lot of fun slapping at my felleo students.
Recently I joined another school, all we have been doing is rooting excsersises and single hand drills. We wont be sparring for some time yet. I saw Carl Dechiara, who is teaching this way under the Leung Sheung/Kenneth Chung lineage touch hands with my old instructor. It was no challenge, Carl had him running the whole time, and at his mercy, the difference glarringly obvious. The one thng Carl kept stressing was preciseness, and structure, and root, if you dont have those three you have nothing.

[yuanfen]

My impression is that Rogue is not deeply involved in wing chun. therefore when he recommends early sparring---rather than write a book its ok to say- nice to know your opinion but you dont know much about the subject yet. That may not be your preferred choice of words but no four letter words were used
and the truth was spoken.
I would not be outraged if I as an non physicist were to ask someone discussing physics - hey I recommend going in to the lab abd wirk ona neutron bomb asap- if i were told that i obviously dont know much about the subject yet..I would think---there is a serious subject here- let me try and figure out what the key questions are.
In any case I and several other folks repeatedly have said- and you finally noted- that most decent wing chun teachers think that early sparring defeats and postpones the learning the motions of wing chun.
And again, wing chun is nota sport. But even in boxing someone possibly you mentioned that you were into sparring rightaway.
There are gyms and gyms--- in many of the ones who turn out first class pro boxers- they dont let their boxers fool around
even ina controlled way with beginners. The beginner will be doing basic conditioning, bag work and shadow work for some time till he is carefully introduced to key quasi-sparring under supervision. Of course amateur, YMCAS and other run of the mill
gyms etc can do different things. Mike Tyson trains at Madison gym in Phoenix-its a place that I know and my son has trained there. No way will they have people sparring until they have tons of other work and the jabs and the hooks start coming out naturally. When one boxes they box. When they do wing chun they do wing chun.
Similarly, learning wing chun motions well is serious business
and one must do wing chun.
Rogue, you and some others may or may not have noticed--- despite the banter--- lots of details do get discussed across lineage lines-- wing chun is a diverse world but it is a world different from bjj, judo, jkd etc. Little bits of information are discussed and exchanged- the role of the knee, toes. elbows etc.
Unlike sports wc was a closed world for a long time... so people try to figure out different ways to share and exchange info.
In WC as in serious subjects the well known remark applies- the devil is in the details.

[rogue]

Thanks for handling the debate while I was gone MerryPrankster, I think we're on the same page.

Well my WC friends it took you a while to get off your high horse stances and come up with something constructive ( at least I didn't have to wait 18 months :D ) but I believe that I understand what you're saying.

The reason I asked was that I was starting to check out WC schools again and give the style another chance. So far the local schools I've checked out have been less then impressive from a fighting standpoint. Something I figure is more about the schools than the style.

[Alpha Dog]

Wing Chun will clearly benefit from your second chance! I for one am grateful to you.
:rolleyes:

[yuanfen]

no worries. You and the merryprankster have been on the same page on this thread. Your last post confirmed my conception of your level of interest in theart. I speak only for myself on two
things--- 1. you should not take wing chun-it might tarnish your arrogance 2. You apparently & mistakenly assume that wing chunners feel a deep need for convincing you that wing chun is a great art. This one doesnt.... particularly after your last post.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by red5angel
The one thng Carl kept stressing was preciseness, and structure, and root, if you dont have those three you have nothing. Hey....! I learned that too! We have something in common! This Wing Chun world TRULY is a small place, isn't it? Hey! Do you medidate too?!?!?!

[rogue]

Ahh good to see that some people here are still insecure, finding insult where none exists.

Thanks to Rene, Jas and OJ.
Mun Hang, touche! :D

[KenWingJitsu]

As much as I train in Wing Tsun, I agree with MerryPrankster & rogue. However this is based on my persoal experience training in Muay Thai & BJJ & competing in both Karate & MMA.

Wing Chuns biggest criticism is its lack of sparring. I DO think it should be practiced from day one. I never used to, but I do now. If you think of sparring as "fighting against a resisting opponent", then if your goal is to be able to fight for real, you should train "for real" against a person who's fighting back!!!

Now in WT we do train a sparring program for the most part, which is why i went into it. The other wing chun i saw never had anything close to sparring. In WT, there's a sparring progression, & it's usually "isolated sparring" but it's still "sparring based on trying to acomplish specific goals.

If I had my way, I would expand on this sparring even further. And make it a regular part of all wing chun.

[mun hung]

Could'nt resist, buddy. Gotta take my shots when I can. :p

Have you had any interesting sparring matches lately? Still waiting my turn.

As far as looking for a WC school is concerned - with all the time you spend on kung fu forums - it just might be a good idea!
:D

Hardest part is finding a good one. Good luck!

[JasBourne]

KenWingJitsu, that is interesting. It sounds as though perhaps your school sees sparring as only a mildly useful training tool. My school sees it as a vital advanced training tool.

In my kwoon, the progression goes like this: first year, you learn basic principles and techniques, moving up into simple chi sao. After you demonstrate a basic understanding and competence in chi sao, you begin to spar, at first lightly and with limitations, then moving forward to full-force, full-contact. At the seniormost levels, sparring is very realistic indeed.

We have students from a lot of different MA backgrounds - TKD, kempo, aikido, boxing, wrestling, etc, so we learn to fight human limitations and reactions, not styles. Everyone's WC looks slightly different, as it should.

[chi sau]

jasbourne
i am the fellow who said that once a practitioner has a few basic moves in his arsenal he SHOULD begin sparring
i stand by what i said
the reason most people begin wing chun or any martial art or fighting system is that they have no belief in their own ability to defend themselves in a fight or if attacked
controlled light sparring helps show these individuals what they are capable of.if you have never tried out what you have learnt then how can you really believe it will work when you need it to?
and as for you urging me to take up another matial art???
i have been training wing chun for about seven years and am now an assistant teacher in a well respected organisation that has proved itself time and time again
trading insults is not very progressive my friend ,trading ideas is

[red5angel]

rogue - I am with you when you say that wing chun schools tend not to bother sparring. Some view Chi Sau as the only sparring they need. I have seen other schools where a sticky hands sort of sparring goes on. I believe these ar eimportant steps but that at some point a 'freestyle' sort of sparring should be done as well. For some of us who want to fight in tournemants or want to learn to effectively defend ourselves, and want to see it work in a 'safe' environment before it has to work on the street, it is important to try to simulate that. The chances of being an a tournemant and getting some guy to just lock hands with you is pretty slim. This is why I believe while WC has a ground range as well, it is often overlooked.
I love wing chun, and was recently introduced to a man who believes in the aggresiveness of wing chun, and he showed me that it works well in a realistic situation. The other problem is that most students dont get far enough in the system to be sparring freely. Most of them get to the chi sau stage and sort of disappear. I believe this is probably the attitude that I have finished the system and now can move on.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by red5angel
most students dont get far enough in the system to be sparring freely. Most of them get to the chi sau stage and sort of disappear. I believe this is probably the attitude that I have finished the system and now can move on.

I've noticed this too. My Sifu once said that people tend to leave just when they are starting to get good. Maybe they think they will perfect their skills on their own. Good luck with that!

[Merryprankster]

yuan--

You mentioned rogue and I being on the same page and arrogance in the same breath.

If I have come across as arrogant, then I apologize. I am an exceptionally blunt and straightforward person, with little patience or tact when it comes to what I consider to be "rational," arguments (personal matters... now that's a different story....). I am this way mostly because I do not get upset when my opinion is shot down. It's simply a disagreement to me, nothing personal. I try to follow Colin Powell's maxim: Do not become so attached to your opinion that when it is shot down, you go with it.

Unfortunately, I have discovered over time that others become very attached to their opinions, and that my style of commentary is frequently taken as a battering ram of personal assault.

It's clear that most of the people here feel that sparring day one isn't a good idea. So be it.

As for the Tyson training thing, where the top level boxers don't work with the beginners, that is a completely different issue than a SCHOOL. The top level boxers in a gym are training for a fight, and cannot be bothered to deal with beginners. It doesn't help them get prepared for the fight, when what they need for the fight are competant sparring partners and HOURS of interval work and fine tuning.

However, in most MA schools, the senior students also teach a bit--and frequently work with the new guys to help them get the "flavor," of the art that is done.

Big distinction.

[KenWingJitsu]

"It sounds as though perhaps your school sees sparring as only a mildly useful training tool. "

Huh!??? Didn't you read what I wrote? I said "In WT, there's a sparring progression, & it's usually "isolated sparring" but it's still "sparring based on trying to acomplish specific goals."

Translation...WE DO SPAR!.

When I said if I had my way I'd make all wing chun spar, I was talking about all OTHER wing chun schoools in the world who do not spar. Sparring in WT is taught from about the second or third month on!!!!!!!!!

[yuanfen]

McDonald's turns out hamburgers fast. Do you want french fries with that? Will that be all sir?

[rogue]

yuanfen (Mr Chaudhuri?),
Why so hostile? At what point did I (or Merry) ask or say anything that was derogatory towards Wing Chun? I've been giving Wing Chun a second look. On the surface I've found the schools that I've visited to be lacking in something that I've found useful, sparring. I've asked a simple question, gave some opinions on why I've found sparring useful and asked why wait to start. You sir then come off like a horses hind end sluffing my question off as coming from one of the unwashed.

"My impression is that Rogue is not deeply involved in wing chun. "

True, and that would explain the reason for the question.


"Your last post confirmed my conception of your level of interest in theart."

You are a regular Inspector Clouseau. What else can you confirm, the level of commitment I have towards my wife and children?

"I speak only for myself (you are too kind) on two things(are you sure you can handle all that?:eek: --- 1. you should not take wing chun-it might tarnish your arrogance"

How so? Are your training methods so tough that they would make me cry?

"2. You apparently & mistakenly assume that wing chunners feel a deep need for convincing you that wing chun is a great art. This one doesnt.... particularly after your last post."

No sir, but you have a deep need to convince yourself that somehow you do not have your head buried up your own posterier.


"McDonald's turns out hamburgers fast. Do you want french fries with that? Will that be all sir?"

Very witty.

[Sharky]

Hey rogue, did you ask these wc schools why they do not spar?

Indeed like others have said here, wc's biggest flaw is the majority of schools that don't spar.

Their answer, to be 100% honest, will probably be unsatisfactory.

[rogue]

My bad that I didn't Sharkey, but I figured I'd just ask here. Didn't want to start an argument with a sifu in his own school. After the sifu kicked my butt my TKD master would do it for disrespecting a teacher in his own school.

After talking with some of the people here, and also some WC friends, I can see why WC waits, form does follow function with it. Also I've never seen the more arggressive(?) versions of Chi Sau, from the explainations that some have given of it I'd count that as a form of sparring. For the record I don't believe that sparring is the end all for training but it makes a good laboratory(Watchmans term) for trying things out. Watchman pointed out to me that while sparring is the lab for arts like karate and muay thai, chi sau is the lab for WC. Hope I paraphrased him correctly.

[Merryprankster]

Rogue,

Forget it. We've made the cardinal error of questioning what "Sifu says."
This is arrogance, in case you didn't know. You're not supposed to question it. You're supposed to shut up and learn "the right way," instead of thinking critically to gain some insight.

As for french fries, I prefer Checkers or Rallys (same-same), but if you happen to prefer the fries of the local McDojo/McKwoon, then by all means, line them up and knock them down.

[rogue]

I don't think he's Mr Chaudhuri, I found a post from a arwingchun which is the same name as Mr Chaudhuris site. So I apologize to Mr Chaudhuri for associating him with yuanfen if they are two different people.

[reneritchie]

Merry,

In my experience (since 1990), students who have started sparring too early, heck even students who have started freestyle Chi Sao too early, have been the worse for it (by *far*). This is especially true of students who came from other arts that focuses more on sparring (various Karate/TKD/etc). They have failed to develop WCK and spar with a few WCK-like poses meshed into their old style sparring or in generic "kick boxer" mode. Those who took their time from the start, or gave it up for a while to focus on basics and then build back up to it, have all ended up much the better for it (they can now control their own balance, effect the balance of others, and apply basic WCK almost reflexively). And I think the last few holdouts (20 something brawny males) will soon spend the time on the basics as well, as they haven't been fairing like they used to last few times out 8)

The base question someone should ask themselves, IMHO, is whether they want to be good at sparring or good at WCK. You can be great at sparring without any WCK. To be good at WCK takes specific, dedicated training (which at some point will involve San Sao of increasing freedom/complexity)

Rgds,

RR

[Merryprankster]

Thanks, rene.

A very informative response.

[yuanfen]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rogue


You are a regular Inspector Clouseau. What else can you confirm, the level of commitment I have towards my wife and children?

How so? Are your training methods so tough that they would make me cry?

No sir, but you have a deep need to convince yourself that somehow you do not have your head buried up your own posterier.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rogue-really no point in atleast you and I chatting on this thread.1. i have repeatedly mentioned my main point. What is normally called sparring if done early bya wing chun newbie can
contribute to picking up bad habits.
2. You are going off on ypur own tangent. I have made no rfefernce to your wife and children-noy my style.
3. Reference to my training methods and whther they would make you cry- is also far afield and besides the point.
4. Regarding what is buried up my "posterier"(sic)-I dont know the basis of your assertion-inspection or a proctology internship.

Merryprankster- nota matter of sifu sez or other shiboleths.
Repeatedly- 1 early sparring as commonly conceived doesnt doanythong for developing wing chun skills. 2. The movements,
structure, stancing and footwork when done well are quite different from boxing and wrestling or what normally takes place in what is commonly called sparring. When wing chun motions become relexive- it may be a different matter..

[Rolling_Hand]

Rogue
--I don't think he's Mr Chaudhuri, I found a post from a arwingchun which is the same name as Mr Chaudhuri site. So I apologize to Mr Chaudhuri for associating him with yuanfen if they are two different people.

hahaha...you feel bad about letting certain people down. Yuanfen wouldn't fall for any guilt trips. So save it !!!
Be honest about what you want. Masking feelings isn't good.

[Merryprankster]

Yuan,

and I have argued repeatedly that when you actually SAID that, I had no problem at all absorbing your point. In fact, I BELIEVE you believe that, and that is a difference in training methods and opinions-nothing more. I respect that--in fact, I believe I even outlined the things you discussed in the last post as being the common view of most of the posters on the thread.

You and others have posted some very valid reasons about why sparring shouldn't happen soon. Others might have a different opinion, but the conerns you voice are real.

What I don't understand is why simply challenging the prevailing assumptions evokes such rancor. And the only conclusion I can come to is that somehow its considered arrogant to challenge the assumption, when, in fact, thinking critically is all ABOUT challenging the assumptions.

Or, I could be tired from 12 hours of watchstanding and be talking out of my arse about the arrogance bit... but critical thinking starts with challenging the assumptions.

[rogue]

"You are going off on ypur(sic) own tangent. I have made no rfefernce(sic) to your wife and children-noy(sic) my style." :D

OK yuanfen enough is enough, let's be friends again. Remember when everybody said that you weren't fit to eat with the pigs? Who was it that stood up for you and said that you were? C'mon you know who. Who's your friend? Who's your buddy?;)

Rolling Hand, pass that pipe over here.

[Rolling_Hand]

--Ok yuanfen enough is enough, let's be friends again.

LOL! You want to take Yuanfen's center.

--Remember when everybody said that you weren't fit to eat with the pigs?

hahaha...with all intrigues and hidden agendas underfoot, you're killing Yuanfen softly.

--who was it that stood up for you and said that you were?

Let me guess...was that Rene Ritchie?...or Whippinghand?

--C'mon you know who

You?

--who's your friend?

You?

--who's your buddy?

You?

--Rolling hand, Pass that pipe over here.

Would you prefer a whip???

[yuanfen]

"You are going off on ypur(sic) own tangent. I have made no rfefernce(sic) to your wife and children-noy(sic) my style."

Touche on the hurried typos Rogue. Credit where it's due!

[diego]

werent some of them having rooftop fights in thier first or second year?. i may have misread that.

[yuanfen]

You and others have posted some very valid reasons about why sparring shouldn't happen soon. Others might have a different opinion, but the conerns you voice are real.

What I don't understand is why simply challenging the prevailing assumptions evokes such rancor.
My reply-
((No rancor at all. You mistake the intentions. There are two- and they vary. 1. Often times the same old questions are asked
abut wing chun by anonymous non wing chun trolls. I appreciate your elaborations on grappling BTW. Its more boredom than rancor. I never tire of trying to be helpful to a sincere newbie atleast in my intentions. When i see a reflexive sarcasm about my art
I try to ignore- upto a point... because there are other readers besides the poster, at some point I might chose to reply however briefly
2. More importantly than the above--- you are not the only merry prankster around. The gift of laughter is important- s[ecially when the gods are crazy and mirthful themselves. Never mind the assumptions on that)))

And the only conclusion I can come to is that somehow its considered arrogant to challenge the assumption, when, in fact, thinking critically is all ABOUT challenging the assumptions.
My reply:
((I dont have a problem with critical thinking about the premises of wing chun or any subject.. Been there- done that and do that myself..I do get bored with dogmatic assertions from non wing chun perspectives which can come accross as faddish group think. The problem often
on the net is so many posters become instant experts and have opinions about everything. In politicsI am a complete egalitarian-
because of the democratic notion of consent.In some areas such as chosinga mayor for some cities we would probably have the same percentage of errors if we chose by casting lots or drawing straws. But in matters of searching for knowledge, I am less of a democrat. One nedds to combine botha questioning creative attitude together some tacit knowledge of a subject.PS. Wing Chun's fundamental structural principles- the famous YGKYM allowing for lineage variations are simply different from wrestling, boxing, tkd, karate and non wing chunners and many newbies dont understand the stance and how important and difficult it is to develop that stance well so that it is both very rooted and very mobile and provides a launching platform for an extensive and powerful array of weapons. Is it constantly important to prove
that? I dont think so. Critical inquiry also requires some work on the part of the inquirer))

Or, I could be tired from 12 hours of watchstanding and be talking out of my arse about the arrogance bit... but critical thinking starts with challenging the assumptions.

((Sleep deprivation is an American epidemic... I average 3-4
hours... and not by choice...but wing chun keeps my center.
It just happens to be true!))


PS Given m y two fingured bad typing... my actual spelling skills are often in flight via erring fingers and absenta list
software spell check.

[rogue]

yuanfen,
Let's bury the hatchet and spell checkers(sp?). I didn't start this thread to start a fight, I was just looking for some information. I've tried out WC in the past and I loved the ideas and concepts but something about the physical part never clicked, but it still holds an interest for me though.

And anyway, some of my best friends do WC.


BTW
"2. The movements, structure, stancing and footwork when done well are quite different from boxing and wrestling or what normally takes place in what is commonly called sparring. When wing chun motions become relexive- it may be a different matter.."

That would have been a nice first answer.;)


Have any of you ever worked out with people from other styles and if so how did you do with things like controlling the distance?

[yuanfen]

yuanfen,
Let's bury the hatchet and spell checkers(sp?).
((I dont usea hatchet...but the tomahawk is not too far away))

I didn't start this thread to start a fight, I was just looking for some information. I've tried out WC in the past and I loved the ideas and concepts but something about the physical part never clicked, but it still holds an interest for me though.
((Not snobbery- justa fact. There is so much diversity and also bad examples of wing chun it is not an easy thing to really understand the art despite its (unfortunate) popularity))

And anyway, some of my best friends do WC.

((In some circles- phrased that way-thats a put down))


BTW
"2. The movements, structure, stancing and footwork when done well are quite different from boxing and wrestling or what normally takes place in what is commonly called sparring. When wing chun motions become relexive- it may be a different matter.."

That would have been a nice first answer.

(In different ways- I have been saying the same thing))


Have any of you ever worked out with people from other styles and if so how did you do with things like controlling the distance?


((Yes- I have worked out with good boxers abd wrestlers,....
if people rather than "sparring" do enough of the full reperuire of chi sao...they wo;; appreciate spacing and distance

[Merryprankster]

yuan--no worries. I know exactly what you are saying, and this is why I don't criticize the time frame you and others suggest. It's not my place. I don't know enough about WC to suggest that you are somehow training improperly.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I do not want to say anything negative about other lineages, however, in our lineage, Wing Chun encompasses everything. When you learn the Wing Chun system closer to the full system, you will see what will look like sparring. very spontaneous and free. If you require details, you can PM me.

[old jong]

rogue
Grand Pooba

Registered: Dec 1969
Location:
Posts: 2314 (From the jkd forum) "Here I was trying to stir up some actual conversation in a wise @ss sort of way. I did a real beauty over on the WC forum by just asking a question about sparring. Somehow MerryPrankster got sucked into that one."

He! He! He!...A real beauty indeed Rogue! ;) ;) :D

[rogue]

All I know OJ is that I want MerryP with me when I have fun in a bar.

"Here I was trying to stir up some actual conversation in a wise @ss sort of way." Referring to a post in the JKD forum, not here.

And that's all I was doing.

[Merryprankster]

Well Rogue, the next time I'm in... wherever you are.... we can spar and have a beer after :)

[old jong]

Come on, you know that!...:D You are a great teaser yourself, I believe! :cool:

[JasBourne]

chi sau: Congratulations on your years of study. I still disagree with your statement concerning SLT. In my opinion, doing the SLT slowly (and, as Rene pointed out, with proper intent) is very much what teaches you to beat people on the street. SLT is the foundation. And I disagree with throwing someone into sparring "once a practitioner has a few basic moves in his arsenal", as I believe it fosters bad wingchun. If you disagree with my opinion, not a problem.

KenWingJitsu: perhaps I mis-read your post, if so, I apologize. Perhaps I don't understand the differences between wingchun and Wing Tsun. What is "sparring based on trying to acomplish specific goals."? We only have one goal - get in fast and disable your opponent.