Wing Chun vs. Choy Li Fut--why the rivalry and bitterness anyway? [Archive]

Jimbo

03-09-2001, 09:59 PM

Personally, I find in general these days that style rivalries in kung fu tend to be within the same system or sub-systems within a style. An example of this would be the mid-1980s rivalry between practitioners of William Cheung's and Leung Ting's respective WC versions.

As for a rivalry between CLF and WC, that happened in a certain place back in a certain time involving certain people. I haven't heard of any problems recently between these two systems.
Jim

jutsow

03-10-2001, 01:51 AM

clf and wing chun have had problems in the past because the two systems are about as different as can be. thier theories are almost totaly opposite. when you add into that the low self esteem and lack of character of the average wing chun man there is bound too be friction. not to mention that choy lee fut is in my opinion a far superior and well rounded system ;)

[This message was edited by jutsow on 03-10-01 at 03:58 PM.]

Anarcho

03-10-2001, 07:48 PM

Are they really so different, Jutsow? I'm asking out of interest, since I have no experience of Choy Lay Fut and very little of Wing Chun (Just started training)...However, I do know of a guy who teaches both CLF and WC, and I think possibly even combines the two. Oh, and by the way, my mad Wing Chun stylingz will destroy your puny Choy Lay Fut! :D

alecM

03-10-2001, 10:45 PM

The friction between CLF& WC was in another time and another place. I am CLF practitioner and I have also studied some WC and have two close friends who are both WC instructors, we have no rivalry or friction and have learned and shared techniques and information with each other

Saying is not boasting at all

jutsow

03-11-2001, 04:38 AM

my point exactly. if it were just ignorance i could forgive you. but since you say you have experience in clf it isnt ignorance that blinds you it is stupidity.

Anarcho

03-11-2001, 04:11 PM

That wasn't aimed at me was it, Jutsow? Anyway, have you heard of a similar situation? Someone teaching both WC and CLF? What aspects of the two do you think are different, and how would that affect training in both?

WinnipegDragon

03-11-2001, 08:38 PM

I can't think how you could train both together.

First of all, which stances would you use? WC stances are high and compact, where CLF stances are low and wide. Secondly, WC teaches only kicks that are below the waist, where in CLF all targets are valid for kicks...

What about striking? There is no 'chain punch' in CLF, and WC has no wide circular punches like CLF (Sow Choi, Gwa Choi, Cap Choi, etc...)

To train both of these styles together would be to lose the core of both!

***************

I said to her, "For you who are so old but forever young I have many questions."

She said to me, "And I have but one answer - you must be a silhouette of the dragon against the moon."

Ben Gash

03-12-2001, 01:56 AM

There was only ever any rivalry because both styles had students who liked a bit of a ruck. The only problem I have with WC schools is that a lot of them here have this vast superiority complex.(and I know WC as well).
There are kicks above the waist in WC as well, just no side kicks to the face and jumping spinning crescent kicks :)

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

Anarcho

03-12-2001, 03:45 AM

I see what you're saying, Winnipeg Dragon. Unfortunately, I can't give very specific info on how they're taught in this instance, since I don't study with the guy...I'm not 100% on this, but from what I've gathered it's mostly Wing Chun with stances and techniques from Choy Lay Fut thrown in. Again, I'm not sure of the specifics. Cheers for the reply. :)

jutsow

03-12-2001, 06:01 AM

i'm glad someone besides me has decided to talk realisticly about this unpopular subject.
what style of choy lee fut do you study.

Anarcho

03-12-2001, 02:00 PM

I suppose you were talking to me then, Jutsow. I think you may have misread my post, since I don't think there's anything in it which could possibly be considered offensive, unless you missed the sarcasm in the final sentence. Also, I think you mistakenly concluded that I am experienced in Choy Lay Fut from my statement that I have no experience in Choy Lay Fut (?!).

Anyway, I hope that cleared things up a bit, and maybe you could actually post a constructive response to my earlier question. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about the difficulties of combining the two on a technical level, similar to Winnipeg Dragon's response. Forgive me if this question is too obvious for you, but I'm just trying to use the forum to ask questions of people more experienced than me. Any replies would be appreciated, as long as you don't start slagging me off again. ;)

I guess there would probably be problems with body mechanics if the two are very different...But still, people sometimes crosstrain in two very different arts to work on different areas, don't they? Could that work with CLF and WC?

Cheers. :)

WinnipegDragon

03-12-2001, 04:58 PM

Jutsow:
I study Hung Sing CLF, although our lineage comes through Lee Hin Cheung.

Ben:
I didn't know that WC did any kicks above the waist, but of course, I have not studied WC. Most of my 'knowledge' on the subject comes from reading. Thank you for enlightening me.

A-S:
I have been trying to think how you could train both, and I just don't think it would be possible. The techniques in WC, as far as I know, come from 'driving' power, and linearity. In CLF, the stances are low and solid in order to provide a base for the wider, more powerful swinging techniques.

Now, this is not to say that CLF is immobile, far from it, but to attempt a wide CLF technique in a WC stance would off-balance the stylist. To attempt a WC style series of punches in the lower stances of CLF would rob the stylist of the speed and linearity of the style. I guess this is what I meant by 'losing the core of both'.

To even try and train the two together, the Sifu of that school must be either incredibly gifted, or incredibly stupid. My thinking leans towards the latter.

Erasmus:
I have a copy of an interesting article about the old rooftop fights between CLF and WC you might find interesting. I have posted it in this forum before under another topic a few months back. Email me at omnidave@home.com if you would like a copy sent to you. Anyone else who is interested, just drop me a message!

***************

I said to her, "For you who are so old but forever young I have many questions."

She said to me, "And I have but one answer - you must be a silhouette of the dragon against the moon."

old jong

03-12-2001, 08:59 PM

I believe you have the right to dislike wing chun,I can understand you may have reasons of your own.But,you seem to even hate peoples who practice wing chun! Is there a reason for that?
BTW,I don't suffer from low self esteem or lack of character!

C'est la vie!

bean curd

03-13-2001, 09:51 AM

although both styles are from, theory and fudimentaly opposites, it is still possable that one can learn both.

i am from buk sing , and my si-sook as well as my sifu, where two of the five black panthers of choi li fut of hong kong, who took part in the fighting in the mid 50's to mid 60's, between the choi li fut families and wing chun

the five black panthers where the five chosen by the elders of the choi li fut families, after much conflict to fight against the top five wing chun players to finish off the situation which was starting to get out of hand and also disrupt the hong kong martial community as well as the community at large.

si-sook also learnt eventually wing chun, and he has more than the ability to play both, although of coarse his speciality is buk sing.

the comments that to learn both, the person would have to be either gifted or stupid, and you lay more with the latter, then here is one who is the first - gifted.

sometimes our knowledge is not as large as what we think, and our words say only what we know.

moebius

03-13-2001, 11:57 AM

...and what was the outcome of these fights (the black pathers aganst the wing chun guys)? btw, do you know by any chance who these top five wing chun stylists were? just curious...

Anarcho

03-13-2001, 03:18 PM

Hmm...Sounds like a difficult proposition, Winnipeg Dragon. I suppose even if he is extremely gifted, it may not be a good idea to teach the two together unless he has only extremely gifted students as well, which seems an unlikely state of affairs. Oh well...Maybe he was taught the REAL Choy Lay Fut and the REAL Wing Chun and they complement each other perfectly. You never know. ;)

WinnipegDragon

03-13-2001, 07:25 PM

Bean Curd:
I said that whoever was *teaching* both must be gifted or stupid, not whoever was learning both. I can't think that most people would be able to learn both, and that therefore, someone teaching both together is being irresponsible. Of course, this is all my own opinion, and I imagine others will see it differently.

Moebius:
All the articles I have ever read about the CLF vs WC rooftop fights said that champions were crowned on both sides. The better fighter won, regardless of style. As far as these 'Black Panthers' though, I have no idea.

Anarcho:
The *real* CLF and WC? They are both derivitives of Blue Ape Kung Fu, of course... :)

***************

I said to her, "For you who are so old but forever young I have many questions."

She said to me, "And I have but one answer - you must be a silhouette of the dragon against the moon."

Watchman

03-13-2001, 09:51 PM

After I've put myself on anti-depressants and finished my anger management counseling program to correct my self-esteem and character issues, will that mean I can beat CLF practitioners?

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

jutsow

03-14-2001, 11:05 PM

i dont want to put you in remision but no, you still couldnt beat a choy lay fut man using wing chun techniques.of course there are exceptions to every rule. im sure somewhere sometime a wc guy has gotten lucky and beaten a clf guy. i mean hey, the sun even shines on a dogs ass somedays.

old jong

i dont hate wc guys, i just pity you. it saddens me greatly to see people waste their time and effort on a useless "martial art". you would be better of taking tae-bo or even[gasp]kenpo/kempo.
no offense ;)

moebius

03-15-2001, 01:29 AM

you're just a sad little fellow lacking self-confidence - that's why you're hiding behind a style. if you think wing chun doesn't work, go challenge some guy from that style and see for yourself.

Ben Gash

03-15-2001, 01:58 AM

Winnipeg Dragon, you just need to shift your perspective. While the stances done by Neil and by people such as Paul Chan and Li Siu Hung are deep, other lineages use a higher stance. Indeed, I have heard that the Chan Family lineage in Australia uses a very high horse stance, not disimilar to a shorthand goatriding stance.
Indeed, some sources suggest that in the mid Qing Dynasty the horse stance fell from usage in southern styles, replaced by the goat riding stance, only switching back towards the end of the 19th century. Personally, I like deep stances, but others don't.
Alternatively, you could add wing chun moves into the CLF. For example the Lee Hin lineage that you study contains a variety of shorthand type moves (look at green dragon fist for an example)and indeed is sometimes referred to as shorthand CLF.
Jutsow, I used to think that WC guys had a superiority complex, until I heard you. WC is by no means useless. It's not my personal favourite, but not everyone likes going down so low your thighs scream at you and then spinning your arms so fast that the blood supply to your hands is affected.
I mean honestly, who is your sifu?

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

joedoe

03-15-2001, 01:59 AM

I've never trained in either WC or CLF, but it seems to me that you could learn two systems with widely different philosophies and still get something out of it without compromising the integrity of either.

Matter of fact, wouldn't that give you a broader experience in fighting techniques and so give you a better arsenal of weapons to use in a fight?

From what I understand of the two styles, WC would give you a good foundation in short range fighting while CLF would give you better tools in the long range. Broad generalisations, I know, but that is how I see it.

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

old jong

03-15-2001, 03:19 AM

We don't need your pity!...I still believe that there is a reason for your dislike of something that should not be bothering you....Unless it is fear!
No offense. ;)

C'est la vie!

WongFeHung

03-15-2001, 07:09 AM

winipeg dragon, you stated characteristics of wing chun and choy li fut, and said that to train in both would be losing the essence of each art(or something ridiculous like that, it's not important)What you described were also the techniques of the snake and crane, and the 5 elements, and leopard techniques of Hung Ga's 5 animals which happen to blend harmoniously with one another.I also have studied wing chun as well as Hung Sing Choy Li Fut, and you would be surprised at how well these two opposite styles blend. They are specializations, developed by different masters who prefered specific methodologies, and developed into separste styles.But they were in fact once part of the same system-siu-lum kuen.

bean curd

03-15-2001, 01:34 PM

one thing you have to remember, is how big is a cirlce??

true it isn't a straight line, but who is to say when one does a gwa,sao,bin,pek choi's or even lema gwa sao, that the circle has to be large.

one of the best misconception of choi li fut (and of coarse i speak from buk sing) is the idea that choi li fut fight with large circles.

then you have chap choi (hung kuen call it pau choi). you have tao lao, ping, yum , fei chap, just to name a few, all these can be done with minimal circling and some with straight line or grinding usage, so here there is much variation.

bean curd

03-15-2001, 01:48 PM

regarding the names of the five from each style.
i am more than sure you can find the names on a reputable site of either buk sing/hung sing or wing chun on the names of the fighters.

i see no need to put them up here, unfortunatly when someone puts a name up, without ill intent, there is a usual barage of disrespect from some idiot(s), and i see no reason why these men could/may be insulted this way.

unfortunate side effect of such a forum concept.

in regards to the final fight that was to stop the situation, it never eventuated.

what was starting to happen on a regular basis was that the organised fights where being overrun by fighting becoming common in the streets, in other words not controled and organised, ( not being hidden from the british authorities)

with the british influence obvious in hong kong at the time, the concern from the community was the reaction that could happen because of this situation that was getting out of hand.

there is some conjecture on what actually caused the final fight to come to the notice of the british authorities, but either way it was plastered all over the hong kong papers, and that was the end of that.

i will say though, some of the five players from each side are still well known today (hint hint)

premier

03-15-2001, 07:17 PM

You said:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Indeed, I have heard that the Chan Family lineage in Australia uses a very high horse stance, not disimilar to a shorthand goatriding stance. [/quote]

Where did you hear that from? As a Chan family CLF practisioner, I think I have some knowledge on this matter, and I can say that we don't use any particularly high stances.

http://www.choyleefut.com.au/images/sifu_pol.jpg
there's one example.

You can find more pictures in www.clfma.com (http://www.clfma.com) and www.choyleefut.com.au (http://www.choyleefut.com.au)

WinnipegDragon

03-15-2001, 08:21 PM

We don't like to use the term, but advanced students do learn 'shorthand' CLF. That is from the Lee Hin lineage, basically.

The reason the term is not used is that 'traditional' CLF practitioners refuse to accept it is a valid form of CLF. Our basis is pure CLF, but advanced students have the option to expand into Lee Hin should they desire.

Of course, our Sifu could also instruct in Kenpo, Hung Gar and a few other styles if he chose. Advanced students in our Kwoon can draw on all of his experience...

***************

I said to her, "For you who are so old but forever young I have many questions."

She said to me, "And I have but one answer - you must be a silhouette of the dragon against the moon."

Ben Gash

03-16-2001, 12:10 AM

Premier, just one of those things you hear, and not totally accurate as it turns out. That's certainly orthodox longarm stancework, although I would say the stances aren't as deep as my own or those of Winnipeg Dragon's Sifu.
Winnipeg Dragon, keep your hair on. Neil never used to mind.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

KrAzy FiLiPino

03-16-2001, 12:57 AM

Don't mind Jutsow and his style bashing.. he shouldn't be talking like that. He studies Chung Moo Do :eek: :rolleyes:

Peace

Daryl

bean curd

03-16-2001, 01:25 AM

winniepeg, i don't understand what you mean by "traditionalist", don't use the term - short hand.

the elders and seniors that i have spoken to, talk of "bringing in" all the time, it has always been part of conversation.

Tu Han Chang,Kong Hing, Chan Nin Pak, Ho Ngau, to name but a few, taught these concepts, and to say they refuse to accept it as a valid form of the kuen is interesting.

these players are both buk sing and hung sing, oh and there basis is also "pure" choi li fut.

nospam

03-17-2001, 01:29 AM

Good day.

Hey bean curd, how goes?

I would agree with bean curd..I am a Bak Hsing player and there is only a distinction between short hand and long hand based on the stage of one's game.

As a new student learns the basic techniques, long arm is emphasised as it is a natural physical tendency to shorten one's movement. This is not to say that is bad, it is just not what is best for the student at that time. To derive maximal power, one needs maximal range of movement. Once this sense has been developed to a competent level, then short arm movements can be trained without (besides the ever constant correction and reminder) fear of minimalizing form and power for speed or quickness. "Extra inch. Extra power"

Ultimately, the dynamic exchange between you and your opponent will direct what occurs during any given exchange. If your level of exchange is limited by your practise and training methods, then your exchange will always fall 50% short of what might or could and should be.

Regardless, most of our long arm techniques are executed close-in. They are mixed long or short depending on a given exchange- really, my opponent will dictate what I end up doing.

Train hard, and smart.

bean curd

03-18-2001, 05:56 AM

nospam, how's it all going.

you must be heading towards "thong time" up your way.

great to hear from you.

WinnipegDragon

03-18-2001, 10:41 PM

BeanCurd, I don't claim to speak for anyone other than myself, first of all, but to my knowledge, there is an accepted lineage of 'Chan Family' CLF. Again, to my knowledge, the Lee Hin lineage and it's 'short-hand' style are not really seen a 'pure' CLF.

I know there are a few representatives from Chan Family schools on the boards... Anyone care to confirm this, or correct me?

NoSpam, I guess I agree with you in saying that more advanced students can shorten the movements. Perhaps my perception of learning 'short-hand' as you advance is skewed...

***************

I said to her, "For you who are so old but forever young I have many questions."

She said to me, "And I have but one answer - you must be a silhouette of the dragon against the moon."

premier

03-19-2001, 02:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't claim to speak for anyone other than myself, first of all, but to my knowledge, there is an accepted lineage of 'Chan Family' CLF. Again, to my knowledge, the Lee Hin lineage and it's 'short-hand' style are not really seen a 'pure' CLF.
I know there are a few representatives from Chan Family schools on the boards... Anyone care to confirm this, or correct me?
[/quote]

Sorry. Confirm what? Yes, on my opinion Chan family lineage is definitely an accepted lineage and I think it's pretty "pure" =)

The knowledge has been passed on in the Chan family from father to son. Chan Heung to Chan Koon Pak to Chan Yiu Chi to Chan Wan Hon to Chan Yong Fa, the current grandmaster and the keeper of the style of Chan family Choy lee fut.

Was this what you wanted to know? =)

tnwingtsun

03-21-2001, 10:05 AM

You are a MORON,a naive one at
that.Good thing you don't speak for all of the CLF people or I would find myself making childish
statments about your system.

inyo

03-28-2001, 07:15 PM

message to jutsow---i have the utmost respect for both styles, choy li fut and wing chun but very little for you ,you cretinous f--ck.--your comment regarding kempo is offensive and pig ignorant.if you ever get the chance and have the bottle then visit grandmaster harayama or shihan fujimoto of the inyo ryu kempo school in kyoto or auckland (nz) and pass on your fascinating critique of their version of chinese kempo(sight unseen in your case of course toss pot).

clam61

02-15-2009, 04:22 PM

someone said a while ago in this thread that WC stances are high. he also said WC has no circular punches.

that may be true of some yip man lineages (they are flat footed too), but in the yuen kay san style of wing chun we stay low the ground.

low to the ground, on the toes, with a narrow stance for mobility. hunched over so we are ready to spring forward (imagine a line backer or wrestler being low so that they can shoot forward)

if you ever try to fight someone while standing in a horse stance while they are agile and mobile...circling around you, you will find that your kung fu is useless.

there are also circular punches.

there are other misstatements from CLF fanatics in this thread about WC, but we will leave it to that.

clam61

02-15-2009, 04:34 PM

i dont kow much about CLF except that its distinct from other southern chinese styles in that it has wide swinging (haymaker like) punches found in northern styles like hung ga kuen

someone said in this thread that CLF principles are in direct opposition iwth WC principles. what are the principle philosophies of CLF?

Violent Designs

02-15-2009, 04:54 PM