Sparring: Why Wait?

[rogue]

Why wait 4 to 6 months to start sparring? Heck why wait at all?

My opinion on why not to wait.
I've found it refreshing to work with untrained people, shows where I've grown too accustomed to my fellow students. I've also found that instead of building bad habits it actually helps the learning of proper movement and technique, (sooner or later you get sick and tired of getting hit). I believe it's also good to learn that in the martial arts nothing is free, if I want to hit you I'll more than likely get hit at least some myself.

So what are your reasons for not crossing hands (dynamic sparring not drills which have their place) from the start.


I posted this on another board here and outside of MerryPrankster, Old Jong, Sharkey and Jas Bourne the answers were rather rude. Some folks take the concept of little ideas a bit too far! :D

[red_fists]

Hey.

I agree. Why wait? Let's give all new Students a nice sharp weapon and let them tyke it out.
Winner gets to learn unarmed Combat(if he still got hands), and we can sell Videos of the sparring.
Just kidding of course. :D

Most style wait with sparring until the student has learned essential basics & principles and has also shown a certain amount of control/mastery when executing the moves/attacks.

Also while learning basics, the Body gets stronger and healthier which are needed when sparring.
While I agree that it is boring to do basics for a long time, it also helps to reduce the numbers of Students.
Just some random thoughts.

[rogue]

A couple of good sparring sessions will also thin the ranks!;)

[red_fists]

Rogue.

No disagreement there.

But many Schools/styles feel that a student needs to master a few basics like rolling and falling correctly b4 getting bounced around by senior students to prevent injuries.

Also like somebody else mentioned, what will your new students be sparring in:
1.) For sure not the style he hasn't learned yet.
2.) Street brawling.
3.) or some imagined moves copied from movies and Video Games.
4.) maybe "Fight like a Girls Club" style

Sparring is a tool to help you refine MA skills that you have learned, and is not supposed to be a competition between students or free for all. (Even though it might look like it)

Sparring will show your flaws in your aquired skills, the student than is supposed to work those flaws out of their routine(Form, training, drills,etc) and than retest their skill in a new sparring session.

Drills, 2-man exercises and sparring are all there so that you can check yourself and the execution of your moves.

Just my 2 Yen worth.

[Sharky]

I think it's like saying to someone " write a book " when they can't write. Sure, they can hold a pen, but they don't know how to right.

Or give them a fishing rod and telling to go catch a fish. They can have a half assed attempt, but if you gave them lessons on how to catch fish for a while, then sent them into the big wide world, they'd fair much better.

Or something.

So, they HAVE the tools which they are to use (arms/legs etc) and they need to be taught how to use them.

Cheers

[Justa Man]

yea man. it's all about givin the person the right tools first. footwork, connection, weapons, etc.

[rogue]

Boy do you guys over complicate things. Did you learn to walk by having someone teach you the theory? No you tried to stand and failed, after a while you could stand. Then you tried to walk and failed, but on your own you learned how.

We've found many benefits to light sparring (learning to stand) early. Here are a few.

Get's the student over the fear hump, good for their cardio and let's them realize early what the art is for.

Benefits for the senior students are control so neither gets hurt, and learning to deal with the unexpected.

[Justa Man]

these are good benefits. but one thing it WON'T teach the new students is how to use their respective martial art effectively, efficiently and correctly, which is bottom line.

[Water Dragon]

I think a student should have a decent structure from stance work, a working idea of a few techniques, and adequate safety skills (hand defense, falling, yielding, etc.) After that, let them go.

[red_fists]

There is also another slight problem that can occur with sparring to early.

If a "newish" Student wins a sparring session, he might now feel ready to take the next guy in a Bar or Pub on.

Look at what happened to the "shodan" and it's perceived level in JMA.
I see the same danger with sparring too early.

IMHO, it is always better to let the student think that his skill is lower than what it actually is. ;)

As with everything, the golden rule is:
"Everything in it's own time and with due balance and moderation."

[Brad Souders]

But in the same sense you then have a person there standing with all these strikes and blocks that he/she has been trained in for months and months and you throw an actual live shot at them and they eat it and eat it cause they don't know what to expect. Would you be more prepared for actual contact by A. Learning 50 techniques over six months to a year that when it comes down to it you ony use three or four of them or B. Spar light get used to getting hit and fist just in your face once a week for six months to a year

[rogue]

Then again a few dings, bruises and shots to the gut will usually be enough to take the fight out of most would be brawlers. Kind of brings home the reality of what you're doing.

[red_fists]

Brad.

Agreed.

But than each sparring session should be supervised by the Instructor and appr. to the level of the student.

I see too many schools skimp on the fighting/sensitivity drills and get the Guys too quickly into sparring, and that, IMO, gives the result you posted.

Most Guys want to go in there and start rolling rather than do boring Forms, Drills, etc and too many Schools have started to accomodate them.

Said that I still like the progression we do in TCC (from my experience):
Push Hands
Sparring Hands
Free form sparring.

Have fun all.

P.S.: Glad this Thread been moved to the Main Board.

[rogue]

"If a "newish" Student wins a sparring session, he might now feel ready to take the next guy in a Bar or Pub on."

The student should be taught that sparring is a learning process and not a thing to win. When I started at my present school I was ripping up the place with my Muay Thai skills, or so I thought. After a few weeks those black belts stopped pulling those cut kicks and punches and let me know what was what.

"But than each sparring session should be supervised by the Instructor and appr. to the level of the student. "
100% agreement!!!

While sparring is important we spend as much time working forms. It's 1/3 sparring, 1/3 forms and 1/3 basics. None of which is more important than the other.

[CanadianBadAss]

It wasn't moved he just made another thread.
Didn't they flame you enough in the WC forum rogue?

"I think it's like saying to someone " write a book " when they can't write. Sure, they can hold a pen, but they don't know how to right. "

**** sharky, I wrote like a half page comparring it to white water kayaking on the one in the WC forum, and you say the same thing in like 2 sentances.

[rogue]

It's a dirty job but someone has to do it!:D

Anyway getting flamed on the WC board is too easy. Ask a question, get a flame.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by rogue
The student should be taught that sparring is a learning process and not a thing to win.

100% agree.

I also think that each sparring session shoul be followed by a discusion session between the people that sparred, the Instructors and possible any othre Parties that watched.

Otten the faults perceived by the Student and Teacher differ.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Sparring why wait.


So why learn anything at all other then what you know already.
Most CMA systems are based on attaining or developing higher level skills.

In gen the higher level the art the longer it takes to acquire the skill to use it. To suggest otherwise, means that one has never met some one with high level skills. for the most part they are not devloped through sparring.

i think with out good basics, developing the fundamental skills though getting pounded seems kind of counter productive.

of couse some just might like getting pounded :)

[diego]

you also get people who do thier art alot, who get torn from thier root in combat by one less experienced but more aggressive:)

Thiers a balance,

[OdderMensch]

Anyway getting flamed on the WC board is too easy. Ask a question, get a flame

you called that a flame? Rouge I thought you were made of sterner stuff. :)

anyway on topic,


A couple of good sparring sessions will also thin the ranks!

and thats a good thing? Many people who learn a MA do so to learn to fight. The stress testing your skills must happen periodicly, but to start so early! What skills are you testing?


Boy do you guys over complicate things. Did you learn to walk by having someone teach you the theory? No you tried to stand and failed, after a while you could stand. Then you tried to walk and failed, but on your own you learned how.

hmmm i will start a new thread over on the WC about this but briefly....I dont speak for any other CMA (or MA for that matter) but WC is not a natural way to fight. What I mean is yes that process "taught" you how to walk, run, eat and **** but it won't teach you Wing Chun, it can't teach you Kung Fu. It can refine it.

Or so I was taught.


While sparring is important we spend as much time working forms. It's 1/3 sparring, 1/3 forms and 1/3 basics. None of which is more important than the other.

yeah thats about right.

And one thing I think can be left out alot is a WC maxim "a weak body must begin with strength training"

when we begin we pull people around and off balance as part of our basic self defense. It helps people get over (somewhat) the fear of being off balance and in close/ haveing someone in your face.


you also get people who do thier art alot, who get torn from thier root in combat by one less experienced but more aggressive

thats so sad :(

I'll get on that other tread soon, hope this post isn't to hat for ya, I am in Texas, but its realy love this time of year, if you like floods and tornados of course. :D


PS, OT & from rouges profile

From now on, enemies who are associated with terrorist activity will not cohabit the globe with the United States of America

hey but friends that engage in terrorist activity are still cool right? ;)

[scotty1]

We're not talking making a beginner go full contact, we're talking light to no contact, then you get a chance (as the beginner) to see what the arts looks like, how it flows, how effective it is. But without getting pounded.

But a couple of weeks of basics and stance work would be good to have first. But people shouldn't have to wait too long.

[Yung Apprentice]

When I used to take TKD I remember they put me to spar way earlier. I had to spar agianst a 2nd degree red belt. I thought he was going to pull some punches, him being the experienced one. When we started, he unleashed a lightning quick roundhouse, that caught me flush against the cheek. It almost put me to sleep. They of course stopped the fight. (I was bleeding from the mouth like crazy, surprisingly I had a black eye later from a kick to the cheek) Next time we sparred, he came close to knocking me out again. This did not help me at all. I was always on the guard, and to scared to attack after that. Granted someone should have told him to go easy. But this certainly did not help me. The guy didn't even know his own strength, to him that was pulling punches.

[scotty1]

That's just silly though. When I talk of sparring helping a beginner I mean the mechanics of it, not being twatted in the face till you bleed.

So, based on Yung Apprentice's evidence, I think we could say that whether sparring is likely to help a beginner is largely dependent on the school.

[Grappling-Insanity]

If your a beginer and your sparring a more experienced (vastly more) student, dont you expect the older student to have SOME maturity. It just really angers me to hear stories like Yungs, as a smiliar thing happened to me. To many ppl think sparring is fighting.

[apoweyn]

i'm with rogue on this one.

there are a lot of analogies in this thread. learning to fish. learning to write. learning to walk.

when you learn to fish, you don't go through the motions in your living room. you get a rod and you go to a lake. you learn on the fly (pun intended). when you learn to write, you do so by writing. if you're talking about creative writing, you absolutely learn by getting in there and mixing it up. and if you're talking about learning the basics of the language, you still do so with pen in hand and ink on paper.

analogies aside, here's the thing, to my mind: the general rationale goes that a student must internalize some basics before he can spar in a 'style X' way. and when a student gets to spar, if they then 'revert' back to kickboxing (i hate that characterization, by the way), it's assumed that they haven't sufficiently internalized the style yet.

but what if the problem is the opposite? they have internalized the style. they've internalized how the movements should look and feel. they've done right by their chosen style. but then, when they spar, nothing looks or feels the way it did in the more idealized forms, drills, and solo practice. and when the experience doesn't match up to the training, the student reverts back to the most basic maneuvers they can.

what if the process of fighting in 'style X' way doesn't work in the direction we're discussing? basics --> internalization --> use in sparring. what if learning to fight in 'style X' way is actually a process of reconciling the freeform experience of sparring against the more stylized experience of forms, drills, etc.

i think it's a question of how you define skill. do you define it by adherence to the precepts of your style? or by application? OR by both? and if by both, what was the experience of sparring like? do you remember being frustrated that it wasn't going the way you had expected it would? i do, very clearly. and why did you expect it to go differently?

in an art where you spar from the get go (wrestling or boxing, for example), the discrepancy between practice and application is essentially nonexistent. i know those styles don't have all the answers. and i'm not suggesting that there's nothing to arguments about reality, vital targets, and so on. this isn't an argument about sport vs. reality. just about training methods.

sparring from the get go could be a valuable tool if used properly. if the people involved are trustworthy (unlike yung's red belt, who should have been shot) and the sparring sessions are directed, they could help to reduce the gap between practice and application right away. and a student can begin to grasp how 'style X' works in truth.

through directed sparring (as opposed to free sparring), students can work on specific skills, but in an environment that isn't staged. the experience will come progressively closer to free sparring WITHOUT having to undo expectations based on the idealized experience of forms, drills, and so on.

i say this precisely because i trained in forms, drills, and so on for years and years. and my experience in sparring was the same as many i observe today. students put the gear on, face off, and then go through some of their favorite moves, as if it were another form, but messier. there's no relationship between the two opponents, because the idea of performing their style in relation to someone else runs contrary to the training they've done thusfar. my take on it anyway.

in my opinion, a style would be better internalized if it were learned from the ground up in a situation that more closely resembled real life. i'm not talking about the urban battleground that so many 'realistic' martial artists like to cite. i'm just talking about an environment that stresses the relationship right away instead of establishing the style and then throwing in an opponent who then makes it near impossible to do right by that style, as the student has learned it.

the sooner sparring takes place (controlled, directed, purposeful sparring), the sooner a student will learn how their tools are actually applied, rather than simply learning how their tools work in isolation.

my opinion.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Who here believes that without any tools a person will learn an art by sparring? How many tools does a person need to start sparring?
Rogue caught a lot of flack in the WC board, which was uncalled for. The problem is that, I dont know about other arts, but in WIng Chun, and in my old karate school, you werent just tossed into the ring with no skills or little skill. You spent a lot of time learning what you had to learn. You werent given 50 some new moves or techniques to use for your first sparring experience, you were given the basics, a few basic blocks, and a few basic strikes, and you were introduced to light sparring. Why? Because it takes precision and structure to fight correctly in most arts. You could probably show up in the ring and start flailing and probably win a match or two just by sheer use of force, but you arent learning an art. You are learning to flail your arms until the other person cannot respond. If thats the way you want to learn to fight why bother taking a class at all? Get a couple of pairs of gloves and just get some neighbors to box with you in the back yard.
If you spend atleast a few months training in the basics, then you are probably ready to start some light sparring, in some arts anyway. There are arts out there that recquire a little more technical proficiency before you can be ready to fight using the style. These arts recquire that you train much harder and probably longer in the basics before you are ready to spar.

[scotty1]

Also, the sooner a student learns to spar, the sooner they stop walking around thinking they acan take anyone because their little bit of knowledge has built a false sense of security. If they learn the drill or technique, and then spar, they'll realise how difficult these things are to apply in dynamic situations.

[scotty1]

Which arts do you think require more hard work and technical knowledge before you can start sparring?

[red5angel]

Ap, to a certain degree I agree with you, although I believe that forms training has its place. For some arts you need to make your body relearn what is natural. For Wing Chun, the structure is sound, but it is not exactly inherently natural to maintain it. The form is stressed, or should be, and your structure early on so that your physiology will adapt and it will become natural. If you start sparring too early, your structure is weak and you may "learn" the wrong habits. I imagine that there are other arts out there that that are similar in needing special attention to structure.

"in my opinion, a style would be better internalized if it were learned from the ground up in a situation that more closely resembled real life. i'm not talking about the urban battleground that so many 'realistic' martial artists like to cite. i'm just talking about an environment that stresses the relationship right away instead of establishing the style and then throwing in an opponent who then makes it near impossible to do right by that style, as the student has learned it. "




Scotty1 - Well, for myself, Wing chun is definite. My Karate was pretty strict about it. I am not sure what other arts would be important, possibly tai chi. Mainly any art who relies on structure to perform to optimal ability.

[apoweyn]

scotty1,

exactly. nicely (and far more succinctly) said. cheers.


red5angel,

you're describing sparring as an end. it's not. it's the workshop in which you learn to use those tools.

"how many tools does a person need to start sparring?"

one. the one they're working on. imagine that in your first class ever, the teacher taught you a single block or parry. you went over the motion for the class time. next class, he partnered you up with a senior student. you both put on gear. and the senior student proceeded to tag you in the head with straight punches while you tried to apply that block or parry.

sparring. the timing and exact sequence of events aren't scripted. contact is made. but a specific tool is trained. and it's learned. not how it's supposed to look, ideally. but how it would actually be used.

now, sparring isn't just a testing ground. it's the medium by which the precepts of your style are internalized. and internalized in a way that actually works.

that's what's being suggested. nobody's arguing that flailing is superior to trained fighting. we're debating how to best internalize a style so that it can be brought to bear in sparring.


stuart b.

[scotty1]

"imagine that in your first class ever, the teacher taught you a single block or parry. you went over the motion for the class time. next class, he partnered you up with a senior student. you both put on gear. and the senior student
proceeded to tag you in the head with straight punches while you tried to apply that block or parry."

Now imagine that you'd been taught a basic strike along with that block or parry. Now when you sparred with the senior you would both have one weapon to attack with and one to defend with. As long as contact from the senior was fairly light, this could be added to weekly, kind of restricted sparring. Thusly (?) the student would be comfortable with the techniques. The unknown element is taken away.

This is expanded (with tactics, strategies and techniques) over time, along with all other drills and aspects of training.

[nospam]

Spar. But spar in a very controlled setting and with one's instructor present, otherwise it will ingrain more bad than good habits. And if you do not understand that concept, then I would hazard a guess that you fall into the 'kick boxer' syndrome. The kick boxer syndrome applies to martial artists that study a specific style of martial arts other than actual kick boxing, but when they spar, style is abandoned.

Sparring for new students (even if they are 'qualified' in another MA) should be slow and of very light contact. The way we introduce sparring is that once the basics are learned (3 months) ,and after some practical 2-person drills, they have to be able to show competence in effectively using the basics in a free form sparring setting before moving on. Simple.

Having this done in a very controlled setting allows for the instructor to ensure the student is using the style in both principle and form. I am a kung fu practitioner, so my students will be fighting using our specific philosophy and form just as I must - compromise can not be tolerated. And that starts with the basics.

nospam.
:cool:

[red5angel]

Ap - exaclty and in that vein I would agree, it is a good way to learn how to apply the skills in a 'realistic' situation. To develope responses.
My only issue with starting out early again is structure. In the situation you describe, it may be a good one, especially with an instructor there to observe closely, but this subject also skirts the subject of usefulness of forms. Sometimes the forms are a toolbox, just showing you what is there. Sometimes they are there to help you develope good structure.
I keep mentioning structure so I will provide an example of what I am talking about. In WC, your elbows should be in, generally speaking. this is unnatural, as your elbows tend to go out as you punch or whatever. The first form, you are forced to keep your elbow in almost the whole time. When I started it was very uncomfortable for me and I couldnt hold it very long. Now I can touch both of my elbows together and hold them there.Am I making sense here? I am having a hardc time articulating myself at the moment.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

please understand that i'm not dissuading anyone from forms practice. what i'm saying is that sparring early on can help to internalize the style in a practical manner.

if the sparring is building bad habits, change the sparring. engineer the sparring so that it builds good habits.

remember that bad habits can also be ingrained by training solo without that critical feedback. and then when you do get around to sparring, you have to undo those habits.

the success or failure of any training method rests on how it's executed.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

yeah, you're articulating yourself just fine. and i see where you're coming from.

but why not engineer a sparring format that trained that particular thing? why do you keep your elbows down like that? to guard your body? if so, set up a sparring match in which you're on the offensive. but your partner can counter when you bring your elbows up, reinforcing the purpose of the structure in a very immediate way.

at the same time, study your forms. one will inform the other. the forms will be more meaningful if they're connected to direct experiences from sparring. and the sparring will benefit from having the structure modeled in the forms.

this isn't an 'either/or' proposition.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Ap - Gotcha, not saying anyone here is accusing form practice of being wrong, just saying this issue and that are brothers in arms!
I agree, controlled sparring is a good idea, for instance in WC we have Chi Sau, its not a way of fighting, but it is a way of using your skills and techniques in a dynamic environment. It forms a step in wing chun, and I think the next step is often ignored as most people in WC think Chi sau is the end all for sparring. After you have 'mastered' chi sau free form sparring should be introduced.
Same with most other arts, I think taking it in steps is a good idea. Like your example, controlled, set up sparring in the beginning helps to determine how a technique is actualized in reality.

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

yeah, depending on how it's practiced, i imagine that chi sau falls squarely into that category. good point.


scotty1,

precisely! that's how you build a repetoire of applicable skills, in my opinion.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Thinking about it that way makes much more sense. I think there are some people who are floating around thinking they should just hop into the ring and start swinging! It hasnt occurred to them yet that getting in too early could be detrimental if they are trying to learn a system or style.

[David Jamieson]

Aristotle said - "That which we learn, we learn by doing"

However a foundation is necessary.

Immediate sparring is generally flailing and little is learned without guidance in this area.

By getting a foundation and learning the principles behind what you are doing will contribute more to your success than just jumping on in.

The analogies stated here ring true. crawl before walking, walk before running.

A bad experience gained from little experience and poor instruction can lead to someone not pursuing a path that otherwise they may have a chance to excel at with proper guidance.

You can't pay for skill, nor is there a magic potion for it. There are lessons to be learned before application is good.

peace

[red5angel]

excellent way of putting it Ap.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

sparring . .. structure ... reality.

spar slow and with power.

new students are taught to spar this way their first class. of course they only have a couple things to work with, but that's what the rest of the class is their for ... guidance. you are taught to feel your entire body moving through every motion . .. proper structure will still pack a slow moving punch with power. this will develope good form, root, fluency, sensitivity, power generation (might be another argument but i believe mechanics and structure are essential to a solid hit), and to some degree adaptaion.

as you feel you are progressing go as fast as you want when the teacher's not looking.

this will get you used to taking a hit, and playing it off when sifu comes around, and will act as a testing ground for your slow sparring and other work.

when you have actually made progress the advanced students will beat the sh!t out of you every so often. starts with slight slaps to the side of the head and eventually you will get to the point where your gonna get your a$$ floored if you're not paying attention. this is where you learn to fight with the system.

at least this is they way i have seen it develope for me in my two years at class. i could definatley be missing allot of important points as i still suck really bad.

[red5angel]

GDA, what style are you learning, or is it a MMA school?

[OdderMensch]

so thowing a single, repetitive strike that you know the younger student has been shown a response to is sparring? Or is it only sparring if you wear gear?

In our school we throw light punchs aimed at hitting the junior student if they do not respond properly. We stop these early punchs short/tap them very lightly, but they are headed right at them.

example of a first day session : Oi Moon Choi (outer gate punching) Student A (the junior) is shown the basic stance (50/50 wieght, adduction ect) then the seinion student (B) stands within arms reach, and directly in front of student A and guides his arm into a basic punch (elbow in, fist relaxed, coming down the centerline ect) and how if I throw a similar punch his punch can deflect it on the outside of my arm.

now student B throsw 5-6 punchs like that on each side, making sure student a's punch is correct and that b' punch, if not deflected would connect. You would then have student A throw the inital punch while student B defects it.

Is this sparing?

[red5angel]

Oddermensch - I think that is what some of us are talking about for beginners, controlled sparring type environment, wher eyou are learning the application of a technique first hand. It can be defined in many ways though and I think some of that is up to the individual.

[apoweyn]

cheers red5angel.

oddermensch,

i don't know without seeing what you're describing. as red5 said, the definition of sparring could vary. but i'm suggesting that what makes it sparring is the unknown quotient, in terms of timing, range, etc.

so if one person is standing at a fixed range using a fixed rhythm, etc., i suppose i'd call that a drill. if the range, timing, and so on were more freestyle and contact was made, i'd begin to call that sparring. controlled, directed sparring. but sparring, all the same.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

I stand corrected, Drill is a much better term.

[apoweyn]

well, clearly there's a lot of crossover. and it's somewhat a question of semantics.

the point, i suppose, is how soon new students are introduced to steadily less structured environments.


stuart b.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i would call that drilling, but it's just a term.

redangel . .. it's hard to say anymore. i used to say i did a traditional style but he more i hear the mma guys talk about their class the more and more it sounds like mine. (aside from the constant conditioning that makes you puke ... i nearly passed out once on a conditioning day ... and got kinda pukey on another .. . but i never actually threw up .. the stance training and what not was killer but the cardio wasn't nearly that bad)

my sifu really hates the mma fad though he's cross trained himself and offers us what he's learned from other systems. however he refuses to call anything grappeling. "ITS GROUNDFIGHTING." i still call it grappeling to get a rise out of him. he says traditional is the way to go, but the first things we learn are boxing and muithai strikes followed by some basic jujitsu holds. it's a private school so there aren't new students coming in all the time, but whenever one does class will be geared towards conditioning for a month or two. allot of pad work and medicine ball work and such.

the three main styles in our system are wudang, pukulan, and juijistsu but we also work on allot of things from other styles from time to time. i see this as crosstraining, but i don't think sifu does.

when i asked him what all we study he said to me "you do wudang. that is enough for you."

[apoweyn]

ironically, i refer to it as a 'sparring drill.'

and the debate rages on. :)

[red5angel]

GDA - Sounds like MMA to me, no offense to yout sifu!

LOL Apoweyn

[OdderMensch]

good we call that a drill also.

for some semantics :
drill - repetitive known controled stikes and locks meant to teach a basic skill or idea.

Flow dril - nearly the same but allows for a constant flow of techs -ie a lop sau drill or single sticking hands.

"triange" - an exercise that sends out three peole one in the "middle" has to deal with a consistant barrage of un coriographed attacks from the other two one after another after another, with the intenity ramped up as skill grow. (note it takes a few months to begin doing this drill)

sparring- the student has sufficent control, footwork and handskill to "pad up" and face another styleist in a semi controled situation. start not touching, begin and go for two or three minutes.

in our school we use that progession, drills, flow drills, triangles hen sparing. with forms and conditioning throught.

just wanted to clarify. :D

[BiNKy]

In my kung fu class sparring doesn't happen until you are well into your training. Like a couple of years into the program. I started to train with a Jeet Kune Do/ street fighting type class because I felt that I didn't trust my skills. It was a good thing I didn't trust my skill at that time. I had very little skill that would help me survive a fight. The JKD class put me into controlled sparring after a couple of weeks once I got the stances and punches down. As far as my kung fu training goes I trust my Sifu's reason for waiting until we spar but I decided not to delay learning to defend myself. I am a laid back and calm person but living in redneck country at the University of Alabama means the chances aren't entirely low that some heathen might start some crap. Besides having knowledge in self-defense, sparring is my passion.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I trust my Sifu's reason for waiting until we spar but I decided not to delay learning to defend myself”

sounds like you don't really trust him?

If learning to defend your self and sparring are what you want then why are you still training in your sifu’s program.

What is that you hope to acquire that you don’t have now?

How would you rate the students that have been there for a while and do spare against the people you train with now?


Only asking out of curiosity ;)

[omegapoint]

When I was 14 (in the Philippines), I started training in Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate Do. There was no A/C, and you guys can imagine the heat and humidity 11 mos. out of the year. It was very hard training and many people left just because of the kihon (basics) and conditioning. A lot of them wound up joining other classes on and off-base where things were a lot "nicer". Kumite (sparring) culled the herd even more. TKD, Goju Ryu, and other styles that practiced at our school eventually averaged about 20 people per class. We never had more than 6-8.

I tried to get an acquaintance to join the class after he saw us training one day, and he seemed very enthusiastic about his intro to karate. My sensei often tested the mental and physical mettle of the new students by making them do some light sparring with the senior mudansha (non-Black Belt students) and himself. He decided that since I knew this cat that I should spar with him. He had only been in the class for about a month, but already his basics were getting tighter. My sensei reassured the new guy that I would take it easy on him, and looked at me sternly to get his point across.

We squared off and I told the guy that I would just dodge, parry and touch him. He came at me like a screaming banshee! I stepped to the side and let a controlled mawashi geri (roudhouse) touch his ribs. His momentum must have added extra force to the blow, 'cause he doubled over. I rushed over to him to see if he was alright, and he slapped my hand away. I was like "sorry bruh", and he jumped up and got into his fighting stance. My sensei chastised him for lacking control and told him that you have to evaluate your opponent before throwing yourself into the fray. He looked at me and said "Softly, now"!

"Hajime!" (begin). The dude came running at me hands a-whirling like Shaq, no form, no control. I blocked and touched him with a controlled backfist to the side of the head. At this he threw down his gloves, cursed me for being an A-Hole, and stormed out of the dojo. He never returned. My sensei explained that the kid was not mentally equipped to be a karateka. He went on to say that he should have picked this up. I found out later that this guy, who was from a rival breakdancing crew, was realy there to rough my brother and me up. Weird. He told me at school that karate hurt too much, and he wasn't into unnecessary pain. I explained that I hit him as soft as possible and that it was his furious charges that really hurt him. He dismissed me and told me to get away from him. That seems to happen to me a lot.

Anyway, with practice of the basics (for 3 months, minimum), kata/forms training, and other traditional and modern training devices, control and fighting knowledge is achieved. Peoples preconceived notions about what is fighting and what is not will often be totally altered. Most folks just don't get into any real physical confrontations in their life, and if and when they do they often rely on aggression, athleticism, luck or all 3. Without proper training a novice can hurt themselves and others. For MMA or combat sports that's cool, their aim is to brutalize the body and brain. In MAs the aim is multifaceted, with fighting being a byproduct of your training. Does that make sense?

After that incident my sensei would make sure he played "catch me if you can" with the new students, until he felt their physical and mental training was at the appropriate level to engage in free-fighting. So sparring straight off isn't necessarily a good thing. In fact sparring gives many martial artists a false sense of real world confidence. It does teach ma-ai/ma or fighting distance, and footwork, but it doesn't necessarily teach one how to preserve his life. Most people will never have to fight or use what they know in the real world, so sparring is more of a fun time, where with sweat, techs can be polished at pseudo-fighting speed. This is all just my honest opinion, and others will disagree. Cool. Whateva'! I'm giving you my take on the free-sparring controversy, that's it.

[rogue]

But couldn't you call "catch me if you can" a sparring drill?

"In fact sparring gives many martial artists a false sense of real world confidence. It does teach ma-ai/ma or fighting distance, and footwork, but it doesn't necessarily teach one how to preserve his life."

Very true, when trying to preserve your life (self-defense) the worst thing you could do is get into a "fight" or spar with a thug. The longer you fight someone on the street the more chance something could go wrong. It seems obvious, but I've seen people sell videos with exactly that on it.

[Black Jack]

My views, if you don't get in the flight time during your training, how are you going to know if your specific techniques, methods and athletic abilities are going to hold up under stress.

The answer, you aren't.

I say start as soon as possible under progressive and controlled conditions, combine it with all your other training tools, whatever those may be, and make it a self study to get to your goal.

Be that goal to see if you can work elements of your system into the sparring, to research and bring parts of your systems principles into function, or to just be an all in fighter.

[BiNKy]

I certainly don't mind if someone has a question on what I mean. I admit the sentence "I trust his reasons but blah blah" does sound like I was politely second guessing my Sifu's reason but I really don't. He believes in forming a solid foundation before sparring for safety reasons. Students don't injure themselves by practicing techniques they don't know 100% and students don't learn to fight until they are sure to be trusted with information that could hurt others. Those are good reasons, they preserve safety. I am the second youngest member of the kung fu class so my situation is a bit different. Alot of the students are late twenties - early thirties and a few are older. I've heard statistics that most violence is geared towards 15-24 year olds. Could be wrong on that one but from my experience I would say that I, a young college student that attends social activities where drunk rednecks are present, would be more likely to get into a confrontation than a 9-5 business employee in his late twenties. I also work at a hotel that gets some routy folks. In my traditional kung fu class I learn more than physical techniques. We study bookwork and work together. There are many aspects that I love from my kung fu class. However, I enjoy sparring and feel it necessary to train it now. The instructors from both of my classes are all great friends and that is how I got involved with the JKD class. Its not uncommon for the two classes to work together and teach together. When I showed interest in cross training both classes asked me what did I hope to gain from it and when I told them they both understood my point of view and had no problem with it. But I am quite often full of bull shi.t and respect and welcome being told when my opinions or thoughts might be flawed. I've learned alot and changed many of my opinions after someone has given me a new angle to view it.