OT: proof against bin laden

[Reima Kostaja]

Do you think there is/ever was any solid evidence against bin laden?

Assuming that osama is still alive and miraculously captured alive, do you think usa would give him a fair trial?

[OdderMensch]

of course he'd get a fair trial, just like the Rosenthrals.

We are of course a peace loveing democracy.

In fact Osama, if you are reading this, come on out and face your trial like a man.

As a gesture of good faith we'll turn off our hunter/killer steath UAV mini fighters that have been raining hellfire missles at anyone your hight, or matching your profile.

its ok come on, we turned 'em off. promise :D

[scotty1]

MY EYES!!
MY EYES!!!

Oh wait, :cool:, that's better.

As to the topic, I don't know. I don't believe anything I'm told by the media 100%.

[yenhoi]

Military targets do not get trials.

He is not a citizen of the US and has not expressed any desire to be so, he is not bound nor protected by our laws.

[Grappling-Insanity]

LOL @ Bin Laden getting a fair trial. How do we even know hes guilty? Cuz the news told us so??

[scotty1]

Imagine Osama Bin Laden going to trial, and being found not guilty. I don't think that would happen somehow. Becuase we (US and UK) have bombed **** out of Afghanistan chasing this guy, we're not going to turn around and say, "****, sorry, we flattened your country looking for the wrong guy" are we?

[guohuen]

Hey Odder, The rosenthals were mentioned in kruschev's diary. He mentioned recieving information from them personally.

[Radhnoti]

And, personally, I think the tape of Bin Laden (which was turned over for independent verification) was pretty ****ing...
He makes comments after the first plane hits that there's more to come and all that.
But, I agree, it's foolish to blindly trust anything.

[Sho]

He is just as mortal as any other person so why wouldn't he have a fair trial?

[ewallace]

Potassium chloride always gives a fair trial.

[Ish]

if by fair you mean. He's definatly going to be found guilty and then executed. then yes i think he'll get a very fair trial.

I don't think they find him alive, or should i say i don't think they'l bring him back alive

[Metal Fist]

Let's face it guys, he is dead meat if caught, I doubt the American Military will let him live too long. H e will probably be killed by one of the Pedator UAV's or he will be killed trying to "escape". We can only hope.

[Sho]

I reckon they won't find him ever. Unless he wants himself to be found.

[firepalm]

There is no Osama, the video tape is actor Richard Libertini...

http://www.what-a-character.com/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=982802417

[koycymru]

I wouldn't be surprised if he's already dead and the US government is keeping very quiet about it.

[dedalus]

I reckon koycymru's on the right track - the West doesn't want an Islamic martyr of Bin Laden's calibre.

As for a fair trial - wouldn't it be nice to see the Taliban fighters already incarcerated in Cuba granted their basic rights under international law? By holding these guys in captivity without charge, evidence or access to counsel (oh hang on, Bush has allowed hearsay to be admitted as evidence), the USA is effectively saying it can kidnap any citizen of any country anywhere in the world and then imprison, convict and potentially execute them on one small man's say-so. Sounds a bit like Malaysia or Indonesia or Nazi Germany, don't you think? "Taliban fighters are illegal combatants" my ****ing arse. Timmy's smoking, bony grin isn't just the vestige of a rotting corpse. I'm with the French on this one.

When David Hicks gets home he's gonna sue the **** out of someone.

[Radhnoti]

IF he's alive (and I don't think he is...probably buried under a ton of rubble, along with everyone who knew where he was) and he gets brought in (again, not likely...it's against U.S. interests), he would only deserve a military trial. Just as, I assume, the German soldiers deeply involved (certainly those who MASTERMINDED it) in The Holocaust received before being put to death.
koycymru, I'd say that the U.S. military would LOVE to announce that Osama is dead. It's one of their primary objectives...right now they don't look as competent as I'm sure they'd like to look.

[Radhnoti]

The fighters in Cuba are being treated BETTER than POWs, as I understand it. We're just not calling them POWs as that would lend a sense of legitimacy to their claims that they don't deserve.
Let me get this straight, you want us to grant each "combatant" a lawyer and trial?
:rolleyes:
What a BS legal PC world we live in...

[Budokan]

A white hot needle up the urethra also tends to give accurate information.;)

I guess some of the people on this board think ol' Osama is blameless. I guess those buildings falling down in New York is just more liberal Commie newspaper propaganda. I guess 3,000 Americans didn't die, either, and maybe they had it coming, since they belonged to a huge Empire intent only on taking over the world. I also guess these terrorists being held in Camp X-Ray ought to be given feather beds and flowers so their stay is a pleasant one.

I also KNOW that if some terrorist killed the realitives of some of these apologists for Osama they'd be singing a different tune.

Kind of like the melodius tune sung when a white hot needle probes gently up your urethra while the alligator clips send volts of electricity to your nipples and genitals.

Oh, yeah, you'll talk then, and give all the proof anyone could ever want. ;)

[ewallace]

As far as living conditions, it is a PRISON. There are no leather sofas in prison. Hell, they are treated a hell of a lot better than the US Citizens held in prisons here.

Ask the women in Kabul if they were ever granted any human rights by the Taliban. That is, if they aren't too fuucked up to talk without having horrific memories of their friends/daughters/sisters/mothers kidnapped raped and sold/killed by the Taliban.

I could honestly give a fuuck if there is proof or not against bin laden. He isn't going to be doing any volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity any time soon. He has stated many times that he intends to kill americans. Once is happenstance (E. Africa) twice is coincedence(US Cole in Yemen) three times (NYC & Pentegon) is no fucckin freakish occurance. Wake up people. Geezus this old sheeit really ****es me the fuuck off.

[Budokan]

Here was another favorite KGB interrogators used before they sent the victim to the "archipelago". Strap down the person to be interrogated. Retrieve a cheese grater and flay the skin off the forearms. Liberally pour turpentine or hydrochloric acid into the wound. Sit back and begin to transcribe the confession.

If pressed for time, use kerosene and light it up. The problem with this is more often than not your transcriber would fall behind from the enormous amount of voluble information then gleaned. Also, due to the poor quality of fire extinquishers in the Soviet Union, the risk of fire hazard was also at a premium...

[Sharky]

"A white hot needle up the urethra also tends to give accurate information."

:o :mad: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[yenhoi]

What the hell?

Targets do not get trials.

Non-citizens do not get citizen rights.

There really is no such thing as international law. Please double check me on this, I am right. There is no such higher authority internationally then a nation. "International law" is only as good as the nations that abide by it, there is no such punishing authority except for super powers - and terrorism.

Human rights is a very laughable discussion.

Targets do not get trials.

[dedalus]

I don't like litigious culture either, but issues like this are BIG and deserve consideration in an open, international court (as post WWII and the Milosevic trial).

Three main points of reply:

1. All combatants are not subject to trials, you are correct. Some get killed in battle, the rest go home when the war is over. Killing on the battlefield is killing on the battlefield - it hardly matters which side you're on, since soldiers don't vote on which orders they follow or the ideaologies of their political leaders. The blood on the hands of American soldiers is just as red, and has been throughout history. David Hicks would have been hailed a war HERO if he'd been fighting when the Russians were in Afganistan.

2. You are also correct that civilian targets do not get trials. Not those killed by American bombs in Japan, Vietnam, Baghdad, Bosnia, Afganistan or any other nation with which America has waged war. The blood of civilians is red everywhere too, and ideology again makes little difference. The USA is a young nation with a bloody history, and its moral high-ground is as suspiciously black-and-white as its newspapers.

3. Finally, the incarcerated Taliban fighters are not terrorists and were not invoved in your New York attacks. They were soldiers of their government, and are being made into scapegoats by the government and media to cool the anger and helplessness of the American people. The truth of the matter is that weaponry does not prevent attacks like this, whereas diplomacy and a concerted consideration of the sensibilities of other nations does.


International law is indeed a matter of cooperation, and America will be frowned upon by history if it continues to behave selfishly and unilaterally. The people need to examine their institutions and leaders more critically.

[dedalus]

Incidentally, David Hicks was considered to be something of a hero for fighting to defend the muslim minority during the Bosnian war.

[anton]

Originally posted by Budokan
I guess some of the people on this board think ol' Osama is blameless.
No I don't think he's guilty or innocent of the bombing -I haven't seen sufficient evidence either way.
Of course he is guilty of other stuff for which he deserves to die, but regarding S11, I haven't seen any conclusive evidence apart from speculation and the circumstancial stuff thrown at me by the American media.


I guess those buildings falling down in New York is just more liberal Commie newspaper propaganda. I guess 3,000 Americans didn't die, either, and maybe they had it coming, since they belonged to a huge Empire intent only on taking over the world.
No I am quite convinced that the attack occurred and the people died- there has been plenty of evidence regarding that. I was born in the soviet Union and I personally know people who suffered under the regime in the worst ways possible - so I don't take comparisons to the Soviet regime lightly. But you're being naive if you think the same propaganda methods as those utilised by the Soviet government have never been used by the US government.


I also guess these terrorists being held in Camp X-Ray ought to be given feather beds and flowers so their stay is a pleasant one.
No I think they are being treated adequately.


I also KNOW that if some terrorist killed the realitives of some of these apologists for Osama they'd be singing a different tune.
I wouldn't be. I'd be the loudest voice calling for a thorough investigation to find evidence regarding who the real animal who murdered these people is. Although, like I said before Bin Laden deserves to die - but not for S11.


Kind of like the melodius tune sung when a white hot needle probes gently up your urethra while the alligator clips send volts of electricity to your nipples and genitals.
OK.. personally if my relatives were killed in the disaster I wouldn't be running around wildly screaming, "GET THAT OF MY DI(K" - but thats only me... to each his own.


Oh, yeah, you'll talk then, and give all the proof anyone could ever want. ;)
"You'll talk then"????
When exactly?

- when my relatives die in the bombing of the world trade centre - sorry the WTC collapsed on S11'th last year buddy.
or
- when I have my urethra probed by a white-hot needle, and electrodes attached to my nipples. - you actually KNOW this will happen? Could you tell me when so I can make arrangements not to be there?

But either way I doubt either of the two possible interpretations of your statement would cause me to give evidence against Bin Laden simply because I dont have any.

[Mr Punch]

Budokan: nobody said Bin Laden was innocent. And thank you for the lesson on KGB torture. I don't agree that the prisoners in Camp Soft Cushion should be treated any different to any other prisoners. But HEY!:D Maybe we could get them to further polish their US and UK trained torture methods on each other! Save us some money! Just in case they didn't get enough practice on their own people they 'liberated' from those nasty Ruskies (sorry anton!), again with our help.

dedalus: I don't agree that because they are just 'soldiers of their government' that this absolves them from any responsibility. :confused: I'm sure this isn't what you're saying... but just because they have been scapegoated doesn't make them innocent in the first place.

So, back to Budokan and Ewallace (and Yenhoi, if they allow you anything as sharp as a point wherever you are - there are international laws, and international courts!): I think the point is that there were many nations' people killed on 9/11, and that if we (the American and British governments) are to make any kind of progress in combatting terrorism we need to show ourselves to be acting as legally and honestly as possible; and also to be abiding by our own much trumpetted standards. Changing definitions to suit the oh-so-delicate sensibilities of the US people is only providing more ammo to future terrorists' and 'freedom fighters' ' idealism.

Dedalus: I think it has to be the stick AND the carrot in the long term. But I agree the stick has to be internationally mandated in length, and the carrots have to be more nutritionally valuable than peanut butter and jelly.

BTW, should 'OT' be used to specify 'ON thread' these days:rolleyes: ? Anyone for Kungfu?!;)

[Reima Kostaja]

I could honestly give a fuuck if there is proof or not against bin laden.



Believe that is what us gov thought when they attacked afganistan.

Usa had get revenge and bin laden and the taliban regime was the perfect target.

Afgans themselves wanted to get rid of taliban regime.

No one questioned the attack in afganistan or the evidence against bin laden, you were either with usa or against usa.

Russians didnt mind the attack as they wanted to wage war against Chechens without UN meddling their "internal affairs".

Israel saw the opportunity to use force against palestians.

[scotty1]

True dat Reima.
That is why they could never find OSB guilty.

[Gandolf269]

Do I think Bin Laden will ever get a fair trial? HE11 NO!
If he is ever tried in the US, I doubt you could find someone (in the US)who hasn't made up their mind up on his guilt/innocence before the trial starts. There has been to much news on the subject for this to happen. But this is why (in my opinion) the Taliban should have handed him over in October. With all his money, he would have been found innocent. Everyone knows that, with enough money, you can buy your way out of anything (at least in the US). Look at OJ Simpson!!

I think the Bin Laden is guilty, especially after seeing the video where he admits that he gave the orders for the planes to fly into the World Trade Center and Pentegon. I don't speak Arabic, but I'm sure if the translation we heard wasn't correct, we would have heard about it. Not that I really trust our government, but who can trust their government? Do any of you living in other countries trust everything your government tells you?

I think we were right to attack Afganistan. When our government said that any nation harbouring Bin Laden should turn him over for trial or suffer the consiquence, did people think that was an idle threat? If they did, they should have studied history a little closer. We have never let another country or group of people get away with an attack on our citizens on our soil, and we never will. If you don't belive me, ask the Japanese.

Our government makes alot of mistakes. And I do mean ALOT. But this wasn't one of them. I don't think you would sit by and not do anything if this were to happen in your country. Bin Laden wanted to "send a message to America". Well, we heard his message, loud and clear. I just don't think he thought about our response.

[Reima Kostaja]

Yeah, but will the war against terroism make all the usa hating fundamentalists see the error of their ways and start waving stars and stripes instead of burning it. I think not.

Usa sought retribution and got it, but going crusade against "axis of evil" is madness. Tension in the middle east is already high and rising.

After the collapse of the soviet union, usa is the sole military super power in the world and doesnt hesitate to use this power to protect it's own interest. Gulf war for example, usa wouldn't give a rats ass if iraq had invaded iceland. There's no oil in there.

But the military superiority doesn't do much good against few inviduals who are willing to die for their cause.

[LEGEND]

To bad those willing to die for a cause has trouble winning wars...I rather have the term live to fight another day inbedded on my tombstone.

[Ford Prefect]

Maybe we should treat the guys in Cuba with the same respect our POW's are treated. Oh wait a second... they just drag them away and shoot them.

We force feed these friggin guys while they are on hunger strike, so that they stay healthy. Give me a break.

>>>I'm with the French on this one. <<<

People usually regret saying those words.

[Ford Prefect]

>>>After the collapse of the soviet union, usa is the sole military super power in the world and doesnt hesitate to use this power to protect it's own interest. Gulf war for example, usa wouldn't give a rats ass if iraq had invaded iceland. There's no oil in there. <<<

What about Bosnia/Kosovo? What were the interests there. I'm not saying that the USA doesn't act aggresively to protect it's own interests. Of course they do. That's what all world powers have done throughout time. However, if the world (UN) decides to intervene somewhere, who generally constitutes the bulk of the force? The US. You can't have it both ways.

I think the Axis of Evil is too much WW2 myself, but I think all Bush was trying to get across is "We're watching you and we know what you're up to." For 10 years, there has been relative peace due to the fall of the USSR. How did we spend that time? Worry about who our Pres was getting head from. We should have been cleaning up, but we relaxed and paid for it. While we wedre lax our enemies were grower stronger. It's go time. Without intervention, the enemies of the US will only grow stronger.

The middle east is a problem and needs to be addressed. Sadam never cooperated with UN weapons inspectors and is obviously trying to get his hands on anything destructive. Anti-US sentiment is rediculous over there. Have you seen the articles in their major news papers? Jews destroyed the Twin Towers... Jews kill arab children to use their blood in rituals... Kuwait is almost 75% anti-US after we pulled their butt off the frying pan. Arafat breaking cease-fire after cease-fire. The region is in turmoil. It's like pre-war Europe. Leaving it alone will only worsen the problem in the long run and make it harder for us when we are finally forced into action.

[Budokan]

ROFLMAO @ Ford about the France crack. Good one!

[scotty1]

Oh s.hit

I feel a big tits up world crisis type thing coming on....

[Budokan]

I've never quite heard it put that way, Scotty, but you may be right.

[yenhoi]

scotty might be right on track.


Mat:

Sure there are international laws and courts, who wrote those laws? Who sits on those courts? Is there such thing as a supena? How does a room full of weaklings force the strongest person to sit in the corner? International laws, international courts, super-national bodies (like the UN) are the biggest joke to the word 'authority' ever created by man. Right now the 'International community' which consists of about 160-200 governments that all recognize each other, bend to the will of the United States and its western partners. No powerful contry is going to go against us on this. Russia is happy, and China doesnt give a darn. The Pan-Arabic nation is in the largest recession its ever seen, and is still 4 or 5 steps behind the technology curve of everyone else. "Terrorism" is a very effecient weapon that relys mainly on western media. Fortunately, our government is not bound by its own media since Clinton left office. Fortunately our government is now not bound by the public opinion of its enemies and other cultures.

Reima: you shouldent have brought Israel into this. Ill address you later.