Underground fighting

[red5angel]

Is anyone aware of or have you ever heard of any sort of underground fighting? What I mean is, there has to be some fighting going on unofficially, that is no holds barred. Something not advertised.

[ewallace]

bad example, but kind of like Lionhart?

[red5angel]

Never saw lionheart and I hate to use hollywood examples but things like Fightclub or Bloodsport, or whatever. you know, some guys get together who know martial arts, throw a tournemant you can only attend by special invite, or by knowing the right person anyway. These guys get in the ring and duke it out, no gloves, no pads, no rules.

[ewallace]

Lionhart actually had a good plot. It was arranged fights by invite only and there was a lot of prize money involved. Enough about the movies. I haven't heard of anything like that here, but I am sure they exist.

[norther practitioner]

sorry, no nothing exists that is anything like that.....;) ......first rule man....first rule

[red5angel]

Oops, sorry NP! I dont know who that was who started this string using my name......... :p


Right Ryu. With all of us scattered all over the world. Look how hard it is to get one or two challnege matches going!

[ratman201]

I have heard of things like this. Just rumors though. I'm sure they exist. The rumors came from some shady people too, not upstanding citizens that daydream about scary urban legends. (most of the people I know aren't law biding citizens, only my coworkers are)

[Ray Pina]

Ryu, I was actually thinking that thge other day. We should start a Kung Fu Magazine Forum tournament.

[Justa Man]

i have a freind who about a year ago told me about a 'fightclub' he knew of...if i ever wanted to do that.

[jun_erh]

funny you should mention it. I've recently been doing something...uuhm.. well the first rule is I'm not allowed to talk about it. The second rule is I'm not allowed to talk about it. Seriously though, underground nhb fighting sounds positively hellish.

[Ray Pina]

Fight clubs are easy to start. No dip your hands in broken glass and surrounded by chicken crap, just find some MA who want to train and test there skills against other MA.

I get together every now and then with old S Mantis buddies. There's four of them and there teacher. He more or less refs, and breaks us and gives pointers. Haven't done this since I began internal training. But I have sparred one of his S. Mantis studenents. There's also a Wing CHun/Hung Gar guy.

I found the three years I fouhgt with these guys, three times a week then, was invaluable for getting comfortable fighting.

[shaolinboxer]

Undergrond fights are usually held amoung groups of illegal immigrants, who cannot work and have no identification and use the gambling money to live on.

Mostly, it's illegal boxing.

[Dark Knight]

norther practitioner is right, they dont exist..........


btw dont be late

[red5angel]

Efist, that sounds like a good arrangement. My thing is this, I figure among most martial artist, it doesnt happen because of liability. If someone knows who you are, and they fight you and you knock a few teeth out, they may come after you legally, sad really.

[Badger]

Try a Dog Brother Gathering.
Sure they wear fencing masks & hockey gloves but they also use sticks.

They are also allowed to kick, punch, elbow, knee, grapple, etc.

When it goes to the ground..gloves & masks come off & the ground & pounding begins.

Or we could get together various members from the forum who want to..to fight in full-contact yet friendly matches.

We can sign a waiver like the Dog Brothers saying: no sueing nobody for nothing...and everyone goes home friends & with the same IQ at the end of the fight.

What do ya think???

[ewallace]

I'm game for Badger's idea.

[JWTAYLOR]

Lots of schools have "fight nights" or Vale Tudo nights. These are not "tournaments". They are much less organized than that. They are excellent training scenarios.

As far as underground "cage" matches I seriously doubt that large, organized, illegal, tournaments exist. No reason to.

JWT

[Ray Pina]

Me too, but one problem: You're over there and I'm all the way over here.:mad:

Anyway, Red, I hear ya. I considered myself lucky. I've been kind of avoiding them lately, still talking but not training, because the last time I had a single meber come over and train. He liked the e-chuan stuff I was using, its becoming my way now. Its not like, now I'm using e-chuan. Its technology has just become my way now. He liked it. But I can't show it, and I'm not a good rep of it yet. I ha ddinner with these guys a few weeks ago and it was Master Chan this and that. Wanted to see our shielding my friend talked about. I can't do that. That is how things become watered down or corrupted. Then S Mantis guys start talking about shielding. My master would not want that.

Anyway, it was great. We all ranged from 25 to 35 at the time. No one was looking to hurt or sue. My teacher at the time had a simple rule: any injury one causes to another he will automoaticcaly cause it on us.

No one got hurt, seriously. One time I knocked this kid from Chinatown's tooth out and broke his knose all in one combo. I was $hitting abit, looking at my teacher and expecting something.

It wasn't my fault. His head gear had come up (it was a wierd style head piece, like amask with an iron nose, never seen it before).

I got a pass. We all reespected each other. No problems ... ever. It's a special relationship. We all apreciate it and are here for each other.

I miss that. That's why I'm itching to do some more fighting. Not ready to ask seniors at my school (I'm knew and don't want to be disrespectful) and don't want to go out and cause trouble. I've already heard smack froma few students at my old Hung Gar school.

[Badger]

If we have enough people willing to do this..who wouldnt want to travel to another state for a tournament/gathering of friends for a weekend???

It just has to be worth everyones time.

We could have matches in Texas,NY,even Maryland at a very special park, near a very special pond. Excuses Ralek?

I think fighters should be blood tested.
I also suggest no gouging...I mean would you gouge a friend?

As far as other "illegal" techniques I have no problem with: biting,attack small joints(fingers & wrist locks,etc.)throat squeeze,hair-pulling...if you think these will help you do them.


Just some thoughts.

Badger

[shaolinboxer]

Interesting. If KFOers decide to have these kinds of fights, which will be friendly but bloody i'm sure, just be sure to arrange them off of this forum.

Don't want to get our KFO friends in any kind of trouble.

The no gauging rule is a good one. Probably the only one you really need. A tooth is one thing, even a busted schnoz, but i'd be tempted to kill someone if they took my eye.

[red5angel]

I think I would be game Badger, sounds like a martial time to me :)

JWtaylor - you are probably right as far as big tourneys go. I guess I meant more just small gatherings of people wanting to test thier skills, no matts, no pads no rules.

[Ray Pina]

I think KFO should promote it. Organize it. Charge us $50 or so to compete. They can cover it and keep it sane: head gear, gloves and shin guards.

As for a bareknuckle match, I have little intrest in fighting 5 or 6 freaks bareknuckle in one day. Honestly, there seems to be at least a few skilled guys here from some of there comments. Guys like Gunned down, Sam Wiley, John Wayne, Legend, and the list goes on and on. Also don't forget the more quite internal guys. Bamboo leaf, quenhuen, believe me, these guys know $hit.

Fighting any two of these guys in one day bareknuckled, probbaly wouldn't make it after one fight. I respect these guys. Never seen them fight, but by the way they say they train, and the insight behind there responses, I'd be cautious.

Throw a hand full of Raleks at me, that's a different story.

[Badger]

Even better. Lets just not turn it into a "point" tournament though.

There is a nice Special Events barn at Southfork Ranch which I have fought Kickboxing matches in.

KFO???



Badger

[red5angel]

Badger, who are these Dog Brothers of which you speak?

[Badger]

Dog Brothers (http://www.dogbrothers.com/)

[shaolinboxer]

Oh you guys mean a tournament.

Gene has addressed this issue before. KFO doesn't do tourneys because of the costs (time, money, aggravation).

There are so many tourneys out there already. EF - have you entered any of the events that NYKK (new york kung fu and kickboxing) offers. They have good full contact fights that might satisfy you. Kyokushin has bare knuckle matches (no head shots with the fist, but a good internal shot doesn't need to go to the head, the body will do). There's that tourney every year in Baltimore that attracts some good fighters (I have fought in that tournament), and some fighters that you can plow through.

Why not just all agree to compete in the same tournament? Ofcourse, they do have weight classes and such.

[Badger]

that allows eveyone to do their best that they/their style has to offer.

I believe MMA/NHB allows that...but we can also have the pressure points, hair pulling,biting ,etc.

IMHO, I dont think these illegal tactics are going to make a big difference in the outcome.

Tell me: what can you do in an "underground" fight that you cant do in MMA???


Badger

[shaolinboxer]

You can continue to hurt the person after they lose conciousness, since there are no rules, and no point of authority.

[Ray Pina]

I moved to NY about 4.5 years ago, since then I've focused on my Hung Gar/Wing Chun ann S, MAntis. Fought among ourselves. Though one of my boys placed second at Frank Yees tournament -- not the last one, the one before.

I'll be there this year fighting, and fighting in any and all local full contact events starting around late june. My knee is still so so, and I want to get on my surfboard for a few months to drop some weight and built up the breath. I hate to job. Swim. Swim. Swim.

[shaolinboxer]

Cool. Becareful with that knee. Which knee was it ;) (just kidding)?

Really, 40 or so kicks to that sucker in a full contact match might not be good for surfing.

I myself stepped out of the ring permanently due to a knee injury, which is now completely healed. I no longer see it as worth the risk, but I think full contat fighting is an important phase of training. Keep us posted!

[Badger]

So whats the difference if I can beat you by submission or knockout in MMA.....in a streetfight I just do the same thing but its up to me how far I carry it.

I believe these holds barred make good sense for safety & have no bearing on the outcome of MMA or a streetfight...except 1 you tap.... the other your cripple or worse:(



Badger

[myosimka]

what tournament in Baltimore?

[shaolinboxer]

Badger - I'm not sure what you are asking. My early point was simply that in MMA competition, if something goes wrong or it is obvious that one person cannot continue, the ref dives and and splits up the fighters. In unsanctioned unregulated events, this may not occur.

Myosimka - http://www.usawkf.org/events.htm

I don't see 2002 listed here yet, but these guys organize this event. Some good demos, good competition, good fights.

[JWTAYLOR]

A long time ago I stopped looking for streetfights. I like to call it "growing up."

JWT

[shaolinboxer]

Don't say that JWT!

This is why martial arts are getting watered down! Why there are no more REAL martial artists!

They insist on"growing up"!

[JWTAYLOR]

Well I can't argue with that. ;)

JWT

[ratman201]

Martial arts were developed during violent times of history, when personal defence was a very important skill. And I understand the wish not to fight in our modern world as it poses a huge set of problems. However how can anyone expect to maintain the integrity of a fighting art if he or she never fights. I'm not advocating picking fights, my friends would tell you that I'm always the last one to get in a fight. I hope that no one on this board would deliberatly beat on some one when they had oviously lost, but this is why there is a need for friendly matches. Only in our modern world (I'm speaking of only the last 20 -30 years) have formal challenge matches not been an important part of learning martial arts (not so much in the US). If having a league for friendly fights helps us apply and refine the arts that we practice then why not do it? Also I think current NHB contest attract a different type of fighter for different reasons.

Sorry If this post seems a bit incohearent. I havent slept in 48 hours and I have to finish out the day here at work.

[Mutant]

EF; Is Yee's tournament the one in New Jersey just outside of NYC? Did you compete in that one? I fought in that one a couple of years ago. Were you there?
They had some of the best lion dancing there i've ever seen, good tournament overall. mostly hung gar players.
No full contact there, but that 'light contact' or 'continuous sparring' or whatever they called it was a joke, people were going apesh!t on eachother, much more so than most continuous sparring tournaments, which are usually pretty lame. Just about every fight leading up to mine, people were being carried out on stretchers and fighters getting busted noses, blood everywhere. Nobody went by the rules that didnt allow face shots. It would have been better and safer as a full contact gig because they werent set up to handle such violence with light contact structure and gear. I admit i got kind of spooked and went in with the attitude that i wasnt gonna be the sucker getting mugged, so abandoned the rules (everybody else was) and fought like it was full contact, nailed the guy in the face a few times....and was quickly disqualified. I got 1st place in chi sau though, which is a joke because i suck at chi sau.
The Baltimore tournament is good, i've been down there a couple times, competed a couple years back. Thats been moved to florida, and now with all the political b.s. within the cma community, i don't know whats happening with that event.

[shaolinboxer]

The combat techniques found in the martial arts were certianly developed during times of war, but the martial ARTS were developed when the warrior classes had no outlet for the skills, in times of peace or hiding.

[IronFist]

Dog Brothers are supposed to be awesome.

You can view their gallery of woundshere (http://www.dogbrothers.com/images/photogalleries/index.htm)

In particular, check out this one (http://www.dogbrothers.com/images/photogalleries/04wounds/pages/15.htm) (don't they wear hockey gloves?)

This one (http://www.dogbrothers.com/images/photogalleries/04wounds/pages/10.htm)

And this one (http://www.dogbrothers.com/images/photogalleries/04wounds/pages/01.htm)

Ouch.

IronFist

[shaolinboxer]

The dog brothers are insane. And they are indeed awesome.

[diego]

he's in the dog brother roster section, what do they have to do tobecome a member, how bad they get pummelled?:)