Short question today :)

[IronFist]

Ok, in SLT when you change from tan/fuk sao into wu sao (when you're pulling it back), at what angle should your wu sao be? Perfectly vertical? Leaning forward a bit? Back a bit? Thanks.

IronFist

[edward]

leaning back just a pinch..... if you its perfectly verticaly you can test how easily it break when on coming force touches it.. but pinch back is structurally stronger just to how the body is setup

[rubthebuddha]

ed's right -- it brings that structural goodness of the elbow into play even more.

however, this is not one of those "more is better" things. pointed just a tweak further back from vertical is ideal.

[Alpha Dog]

Doesn't his Sifu do these totally differently?

[yuanfen]

hats off to uou on learning wing chun withouta teacher. I think that once you are corrected by a top flight teacher-you will be surprised. Learning by videos is like learning tough subjects from others notes--- you gotta go to class--- sometimes.
Others things will negate each other in structure, stance and motion...
a woo here, a woo woo there and pretty soon a woo woo every where theory of learning?

[Sabu]

Try opening doors with your wu sau. The doors that require pushing, like shopping mall doors. Try various angles. Discover which is most efficient.

[Alpha Dog]

try closing the fridge door with a beer in your hand, try this several times a night

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
try closing the fridge door with a beer in your hand, try this several times a night

Haha, I do that when I close my car door. After I park, I pull the keys out of the ignition with my right hand, then I open the door with my left hand and get out, and then as I'm walking away I close it with a fuk sao or something with my keys still in my right hand. You know what? I've done this for years without even realizing it.

IronFist

[S.Teebas]

when you're pulling it back

Pull nothing, push nothing! If you do either of these, are you not using muscle?...if you use muscle doen't the stronger guy win???

[IronFist]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Pull nothing, push nothing! If you do either of these, are you not using muscle?...if you use muscle doen't the stronger guy win???

Unfortunately, anytime you move anything you're using muscle.

IronFist

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Sabu
Try opening doors with your wu sau. The doors that require pushing, like shopping mall doors. Try various angles. Discover which is most efficient.

Is it still a wu sao if you're pushing out? The only examples I've ever seen have been a retracting wu sao.

IronFist

[S.Teebas]

Unfortunately, anytime you move anything you're using muscle.

Which muscles do you use?...does it matter??... are ligaments counted as muscle?? ...how much isolation of specific muscle groups are required??

Pushing and moving are 2 very different things.

[IronFist]

Which muscles do you use?

Which muscles you use depends on what you're moving.

...does it matter??...

Aparently, since WC guys are always all "don't use muscle."

are ligaments counted as muscle??

Ligaments are not counted as muscle. Ligaments cannot
contract, therefore movement by ligament alone is impossible

...how much isolation of specific muscle groups are required??

Isolation? I don't see how this is relevent to the discussion.

Pushing and moving are 2 very different things.

Let me rephrase: is it still a wu sau if it is moving forward?

IronFist

[black and blue]

Edward wrote: "leaning back just a pinch..... if you its perfectly verticaly you can test how easily it break when on coming force touches it.. but pinch back is structurally stronger just to how the body is setup."

This is interesting! When I retract Wu Sau in the form I've always focussing on making sure it's my elbow that moves backwards and not the hand alone... I'd always kept the Wu Sao vertical.

You live and learn, I guess.:)

What really interests me is the positioning of Fook Sau. In the form the hand position is very particular, but when doing Dan Chi Sau I use a Fook Sau that allows more contact with my partner's bridge (my hand is more open).

This allows for great contact and makes feeling easier. Is there any application of the SNT Fook Sau? There is a moment in Huen Sau where the hand has this Fook Sau shape, albeit briefly and in transitition.

On a sadder note, any ideas on treatment for a cut eyelid? :(
Some monkey poked me in the eye last night and nail grazed said eyelid. Hurts like f*ck!

Duncan

[stuartm]

The Wu sau is not the most important part - it is the elbow movement and positioning. When you take the fook sau out it is the elbow that does all the work with the concentration on the top of the wrist going out to the centre. When you return in Wu Sau you should concentrate on bringing the wu sa back to the centre using the correct elbow energy and positioning. Your wu sau is only as strong as the structure behind it.

Regards, Stuart

[edward]

yes those who stated it are correct elbow does lead the motion on the pull back of wu sau.. there's actually greater detail into the wu sau, but too much to write about...

keep in mind, 1st section of SLt is done slow, for simply the development of tan, bong, and fok sau..... these are never meant for applicaiton but to learn the proper structure

[vt108]

"This allows for great contact and makes feeling easier. Is there any application of the SNT Fook Sau?"
Yes, it is. Not like a Fook Sau in SNT but Fook Sau is really a Gan Sao, it is also a punch. You use Fook Sau every time when your opponent's arm is on the inside side of your hand. I hope you know what I mean. It is very effective movement but it has to be done three times in case if your opponent has a very good center. If you have a very good Tan Sau it is very difficult to stop it with a Fook Sau and this is also the reason for making it three times.

[anerlich]

Ligaments are not counted as muscle. Ligaments cannot
contract, therefore movement by ligament alone is impossible

Ligaments (and more to the point, tendons) are elastic. You cannot make them contract, but you can store and release elastic energy in them, similar to a rubber band.

if you use muscle doen't the stronger guy win???

If the "stronger" guy uses poor technique or the "weaker" guy has superior leverage, then not necessarily.

Yes, you have to use muscle to move. It is the skilful use of strength through structural alignment and leverage that differentiates the better practitioners.

[reneritchie]

It will depend on your flexibility but you should always strive for more (not to absurdity, such as bending it back until your thumb is against your wrist, but enough - past vertical as others have said is a good guide).

Things like opening your door with your wu sao are okay, but be careful not to rely on local muscle to do it (many mistake local muscle for WCK skeletal alignment). If you feel your arm tensing, you're going into local muscle mode and should try and relax and let your alignment do the work (relax the shoulders, sink the elbow, lower the posture, clamp the horse, etc.) You will, of course, have to use *some* muscle (otherwise you would not be able to move or assume any posture) but your goal should always be to *minimize* the amount of muscle you're using (to the barest minimum possible)

There is an application for the SNT Fook Sao, the opposite of the SNT Tan Sao in the same section.


The wrist/hand is important, the elbow is important, the waist/horse is important (especially in SNT). You need all three, IMHO, to be correct, or a piece of the puzzle is missing.

Tan/Fook/Wu in SNT are meant for application. Everything is meant for training AND application. Otherwise, it wouldn't be economical. It's done slowly to develp some ideas (center line, forward intent/Ging, single arm changes, body linkage, etc.) but they remain useful movements in their own right (what an expert doing WCK, you'll often see very, very basic stuff, like Tan, Wu, Fook, etc., just done very, very well).

Andrew - Very nicely said! Chinese MA in general talks about the ligaments and tendons. In WCK, its sometimes said, SNT is a form of tendon changing.

Rgds,

RR

[Cashier Graham]

We pull our wu sau back so the fingers are pointing towards our noses. When you pull it back the tension in the forearm causes it to be structurally very strong. Try doing the slow bit of SLT with a few people pushing your arm into your chest, if your structure is good enough you should be able to hold them. Oh yeah put your back to a wall first!

[diego]

I have seen its form in SLT, but not much of its usage,
from what i understand:
TanSao- Wipes forwardoutside.
Is FokSao similar to a mantis hookhand?, where it wraps the wrist & pulls into your center. can you describe how wingchun uses this hand, is FokSao onemotion"pull in" or can you use it pressing forwards?.
agian, how does the WuSao move in its various applications?, i fairly get tansaos varieties, so if you could halp with these two, it would be peace!.

[Cashier Graham]

Tan sao should shoot out forward not sideways on the self-centre-line, well that's how we do it. Wu sau is a very powerful block when combined with circling the wrist and using fa ging energy. Heard the legend of general Wu guarding the gates of heaven? Can be used against a straight punch to the chest any higher then the elbow is too high and it'll likely collapse. Also good against forearms or chops. And of course used as a guard with the bong sau. Everything goes forward even fook sau. Can be used to keep contact with your opponent and also for regaining the line as seen in chum kiu.