Gene & NorthernShaolin Question on GRZ

[diego]

did he study with sunlutang?, i swear i read that before, but a forummember mentioned he didnt?.
Also, he said the horsepalm thing, was a scam, he said GRZ, poisoned the horse beforehand? or something about rubbing his palm over the horse the day before the fight, doing some kind of dimmak, or something??.

Do you guy's have the verified transmission of his life?
Thanks

[NorthernShaolin]

diego,

The answer is yes he studied under Sun Lu Tang but only breifly at Li Ching Lin's house. Like many other masters who wanted to increase their CMA knowledge, Kuo Yu Chang was learning Tai Chi and Wu Tang Sword from China's greatest swordsman, Li Ching Lin. Sun Lu Tang came by to visit and Li Ching Lin requested that Sun teach his class which consist of many other masters from different styles besides KYC. Sun taught his Hsing I, Pa Kua and his version of Tai Chi to a few selected masters at Li' house.

Remember, during this time (mid 1920's), Li Ching Lin had a Think Tank which was associated with KMT and where he invited many differnt masters to his house to discuss CMA and swordmanship. His objective was to promote CMA, specifically Shao lin and Wu Tang. Many masters responded and came to Li's house to duscuss and exchange ideas and learn from each other. Yang Chang Fu, Fu Chen Sheng and Sun Lu Tang were some of the most well known masters who came to Li's house.

As for KYC touching the horse the day before the actual event is false. There are many eye-witness accounts who was either associated with KYC or who were in the stands as a witness of the event and was not affilated with KYC. Some of these people were trained masters of CMA while others were just ordinary people but their accounts were verfied and crediable. All this is documented in separate newspaper articles, various eye-witness accounts in magazines and interviews. All of these articles were very similar in the sequence of the event and in detail.

By all accounts, no one was allowed near the horse before KYC struck it as this was related in the articles that I've read.

Like all well known masters, KYC's life is very much verfied and well document. You just have to know where to locate it.

[diego]

you should write articles, or Book?:D if you already don't!!.
Also thanks for the kfdictionary link in the other thread, i will look into this:cool:

[Fen]

No doubt!!! Please start a book1. call It (The Life of GRZ and the true northern shaolin kung fu):)


Book2!! SF China Town Kung fu Family's

Book3!! ? get back to you


this would be HOTand I will be the 1st to get one!!!
oooooo can i have mine autograph too!! :D


thanks

[GeneChing]

In your lineage, do you have the Sun form? Wing Lam actually didn't have the form, just the taiji & sword from Li Jinglin. It was Paul Tam who brought the form into our school. He was a classmate of Wing Lam who also didn't have the form, then sought out Sun Jianyun and became a disciple of hers. Wing Lam did the same later. But I'm curious how many BSL people know the Sun form. It stems from your comment that GRZ only studied under Sun for a short time.

[NorthernShaolin]

Gene,

When you state 'Sun Form' I guessing that you are referring to Sun Tai Chi. I did not pick up Sun's Tai Chi thru the NSL lineage but thru my other lineage, Sun Yu Fung's NSL Lo Han via Ching Wu.

However, my Hsing i (Sun) came via NSL lineage as with the Yang Tai Chi thru Li Ching Lin lineage. I never learned Sun's Pa Kua but I undersand that at one time my sifu taught it to my Si hing.

It is my understanding that Kuo Yu Chang and Wan Li Sheng pick up Sun's Hsing i and his Pa Kua while they were at Li Ching Lin's house. Being that they were at the master level already, they were able to pick up the system at an accelerated rate from Sun Lu Tang. However both knew the style but they never claimed to be experts. But, as a historical note, they were both good enough to use Hsing i techniques in their matches when they were in the 1928 China National Tournament in Nanking.

It is said that Sun's Tai Chi was incooperated into our (NSL) Yang Tai Chi. The question that I always had; was it Li Ching Lin who did it or was it KYC? My guess is that it was KYC because Li Ching Lin was more into Tai Yu and Wu Tang swords and really never decidated too much time on the Tai Chi stuff.

[GeneChing]

Yes, it was the Sun taiji form I was referring too. Wing Lam picked up Xingyi and Bagua from Sun Jianyun later too. None of that was in our school (but then Wing Lam had all that Hung Gar too.) Do you know any BSL people that inherited Sun taiji? I'm not even sure that Sun had developed his taiji form fully when he worked with GRZ. He developed it late in life and died in 1932, so probably he did, but I'm not sure. It is very interesting to see many BSL people returning to Sun taiji and claiming it. Sort of like Alex Haley in Roots.

The Sun influenced Yang in BSL I've always felt was a little spin doctoring. When Wing Lam was younger, he used to say his taiji was Sun, even though it was the Yang and Taiyu sword. That was back when he didn't care to teach taiji and even charged extra for it.:rolleyes: It wasn't until he learned it from Paul Tam that he reversed his position on this. Since he became a disciple of Sun Jianyun, he's really been pushing Sun taiji. To me, the BSL Yang seems like any other Yang, perhaps a bit diluted. I sense little evidence of Sun there. But then, I've never trained in Yan under anyone else, so I may be insensitive to it.

[NorthernShaolin]

Gene,

Your are right, Sun did not standardized his Tai Chi until after KYC left. Sun was still trading ideas with Fu Chen Sheng about the internal concepts of tai Chi and Pa Kua.

Another side note is that Yim Shan Wu used to demonstrated Sun's Hsing-i late in his years and Hsing-i became associated closely with Yim just before he passed away in 1972.

[GeneChing]

Interesting - so do you feel that there is Sun influence in the Yang form passed donw BSL and if so, what is it exactly?

[NorthernShaolin]

Gene,

Since Sun Lu Tang was still developing his concepts for his Tai Chi Style I believe only his ideas, which were not really completely crystallizing into its final form, was introduced into BSL's Tai Chi set during Li Ching Lin's Think Tank Days. These concepts are not visible such as stances or movements but of a abstract nature. That is why one cannot say here is something from the set that was taken out from Sun and incorporated into BSL's Tai Chi.

What I was told is that Sun's influence was in the breathing and in some of the stepping movements... which stepping, I do not have a clue.

When you converse with Yim's older disciples about this, they only answer with "the Tai Chi set is done the old way. It is the Traditional Tai Chi that no one does anymore." They continue to say that it is a combination of Yang and Sun and leave it at that.

In a sense, it is true because the existing BSL's Tai Chi was more than likely a set in a transition stage before Yang Chang Fu wrote his Tai Chi book and standardized Yang Tai Chi and before Sun Lu Tang realized what his Tai Chi was going to end up looking like.

The BSL's Tai Chi set has its roots to Yang Chang Fu's father, Yang Chien Hou and the way he may have taught it, and not the current standard Yang Chang Fu's set. During their lifetime, both Yangs and their father, Yang Lu Ch'an kept evolving their Tai Chi sets. Yang Lu Ch'an took the 2nd set of Chen's Tai Chi and expanded while Yang Chien Hou took the same set and made the techniques smoother and softer and Yang Chang Fu changed the Yin and Yang principals from movements to stances. Somewhere in between, the BSL's Tai Chi developed.

[GeneChing]

What do you see as the major differences between BLS Yang and standard Yang? I've never studied Yang outside BSL and even then, not that intensively, so I'm just curious.

[NorthernShaolin]

Gene,

The criteria in a Tai Chi sets is that Yin and Yang must exist and be expressed in some form.

Standard Yang set is performed in a constant steady flow where the Yin and Yang are expressed in its stances. For example, in the technique 'turn and brush knee', the yin and yang are expressed in the positions of the arms and legs as they relate to each other. If the right arm is pushing outwards, it is expressed as yang, then the left arm is yin while the left leg would be yang and the right leg would be yin. Thus, yin and yang is balance within the stance.

In the BSL Yang Tai Chi, yin and yang are expressed in the movements rather than of positional stances. In other words, the set is not performed in a steady flow. One can observe sections or series of techniques moving slower (or faster) than other parts. This is perhaps something that was left over when Yang TC developed out of Chen Tai Chi where within their sets there are soft moves then is quickly followed by an explosive move.

Also within the BSL TC set, there exist slight transitional moves which are yin between the main moves which are yang, i.e., between two brush knee moves which are yang, there is a transition move in between which would be considered yin. Another example would be kicks (yang) but the transitional moves before the kick and after the kick would be yin. Thus, Yin and Yang are expressed within movements and is balanced if taken totally from beginning to end.

So as the Yang Tai Chi set evolved from one stage to the next through three generations of Yang, the yin and yang principals remain the same but are expressed differently.

[GeneChing]

I understand what you are saying theoretically, but I think I'd experience it first hand to really understand. From what I've seen of the standard Yang and BLS Yang, they seem pretty simiilar, but like I said earlier, I haven't really studied Yang outside BSL.

[Fen]

Northern Shaolin-
There are some questions i have for you....if you could please e-mail me I would really appreciate it! I tried to e-mail and pm you, but it won't let me......

Thank you,
Jason

[NorthernShaolin]

Tao Of Wushu,

You can go to my web-site to e-mail me at www.jingmo.org or just sent the e-mail to jingmo@jingmo.org

[diego]

in the bio for kaido it says he learnt mantis and some internal from a w.c.wong in sanfrancisco, i just looked at your link, and your school teaches taichi/mantis and that could be what the article meant?, maybe its a typo, but do you have record of any wongs in that style in sf around late60s early 70s?
Thanks

[NorthernShaolin]

diego,

Sorry but there were no surnames of Wong's who taught Tai Chi Praying Mantis during the 1960's or 1970's. During this time, TCPM was big overseas in Vietnam.

As for Seven Star Praying mantis, there were only two masters. Brenden Li and his older classmate, Peter Quan during this same period.

However besides Wong Jack Man, there were two other masters with surname of Wong; Y.C. Wong who you already know about and T.Y. Wong who taught Southern Shaolin.

[diego]

:confused: :D

I'm going to read sunlutangs bio agian in his hsingyi book, so i will post my question tomorrow, on how they trianed for competition, such as the 1928 nanjing games?, Agian thanks for your information.

[kai men]

Interesting posts! i have learnt a lot reading them.
I have a question: Does anybody know anything about KYC Book
on Tai chi chuan? I have got the introduction of this book in english, but I don't know whoever has access to that material outside China or Hong Kong
Kindest Regards
horacio

[NorthernShaolin]

kai men,

As far as I know, there is no book written by KYC. KYC was not a writer nor a scholar. He was basiclly a fighter. He couild not write classical Chinese which is the style of writting that all the older MA books are written. LTH could and thus he wrote a book on Tai Chi. If he had lived longer, he more than likely would have written more books about NSL.

What you have is a translation from Lung Tzu Hsiang's book on Tai Chi Chuan, written in 1952. LTH asked questions to KYC and LTH wrote down the answers and made it part of his book.

[kai men]

Gene :
I am afraid that I don't have the poems. Only the Lim Po one, I have never asked my sifu to share that with me, I know he and some other elder brothers have the ones.
I will ask for them and share it with you as soon as I can
Thanks a lot for your kind generosity.
Horacio

[GeneChing]

Well, I hope you can get some, but understand if you cannot. Many masters are protective of their lyrics, but now, as you can see, it's all over the net. So far, it's got a very positive response. So we hope that you can join in our little ongoing research project.

[kai men]

Be sure I will get the poems. Many of my elder fellows have some of them. I live far away from my teacher's so most time I go to his kwoon I just practice and practice, and talk about different things. But this isn't already talked
For sure I will be able to make some adding soon
In the meanwhile, I am AMAZED for all I have learnt in just one day
Kindest regards and thank you very much
horacio