I have a question

[scotty1]

Could Wing Chun be said to be a mutuality of hard and soft?

I would like to do an internal art when I am older. But I don't really want to put X amount of years into an external art and then have to switch to an internal for the sake of my old b@stard bones. See what I mean?
But surely the emphasis of WC could change as your body aged, becoming more internal, less reliant on strength. Isn't that what Wing Chun is about anyway?

[black and blue]

I guess the secret is to always do WC that isn't reliant on strength.

There are plenty of old fellas practising WC - Old Jong is always saying how old he is :) I've never crossed hands with him - don't think I'd want to :eek:

Being slapped is never good for the ego (or the face), being beaten to a bloody pulp by an old chap is way too embarrassing :p

Ip Chun is no spring chicken. Send him an email and ask him the secret :)

[scotty1]

You train with Kamon don't you?
Can you do your art w/out using any strength?

[black and blue]

Kamon indeed!

Without strength? Of course. Have you seen Kevin Chan? He's not exactly the Hulk:) Though some of the guys that train do seem to have those proportions. He's so relaxed their strength goes nowhere.

It's always been my understanding that no 'branch' of Wing Chun uses strength. If what you do is dependent on muscles and strength, why stick to the main principles found in WC? Indeed, why 'stick' if you only use strength.

Are you training in London?

Duncan

Ps. WC = no deep stances, no high kicks, no huge movements, a strong reliance on sensitivity = great for those lacking in strength or those who are old. In terms of body alignment, in particular the spine, WC is not a million miles away from the internal styles.

[scotty1]

Hi
Yeah, that's what I thought. Instead of doing 10 years in an external art and then switch to WC when my bones can't take it anymore I might as well start WC earlier.

And yes, I have seen Kevin Chan, I went to a demo in Portsmouth. Very impressed. I went up to him afterwards to ask him if he knew anywhere I could train WC in China and just stuttered and went red! Guy's got a weird presence...

But watching him and one of the seniors go at it, it seemed quite, er, jarring, if you see what I mean.

Is WC kind to old bones, ha ha ha.:)

[black and blue]

:D Kevin's movements are soft and flowing... except when you examine them from a receiving end... then they feel hard and flowing. :)

The demos are usually quite hardcore in as much as he asks his senior students helping him to 'go for it'. Rather than demo against weak punches he'd rather someone try and really clout him.

Glad you liked the demo. As for the question you asked, we've had a number of students go to Hong Kong and train, so if you asked about HK I'm sure he'd have been able to throw some ideas at you.

If it's China proper you're asking about... Rene Ritchie is probably the best bet, or some of the guys on this forum who may have journeyed to the source, as it were.

;)

We've older members in Kamon too, and they do pretty darn well!

There's also women!! I wouldn't want to say they are weak (they hit hard!), but there success is surely indication of a style where strength isn't required.

But each to his own. If the Internal Arts are what you're after, go for it. Bagua looks great, though I don't think there are many places to train in the UK.

Duncan

[red5angel]

again, another one of those questions that can get WC people arguing! Most will tell you WC is a combination of internal and external. I think this is closest to the truth. We rely on structure, sensitivity and rootedness to do what we have to do. Shouldnt be using much muscle power at all.
I think you are right about the direction it goes as you get older. when you are young and spry you tend to use it more physically, as you get older you tend to internalize it more. This may have something to do with the gaining of knowledge as well.

[scotty1]

Sounds like a good path to get on to me.

I know internal arts take more time to get proficient in, so I figure, rather than start Taiji or something now when I'm in the mood for something a bit more, hmmmm.... aggressive, I like the idea of taking an art which will, hmmmmmmm....mature with the practitioner.

[red5angel]

I do wing chun for exactly those reasons scotty1! As I mature so will my art. It will grow with me instead of me growing out of it. And right now I am young, and aggressive and the art suits me that way!

[reneritchie]

Wing Chun, in its writings, says "hard and soft combine in use", but as a system, it says "soft and relaxed".

As for training in China, if you want the old timers, with the deeper student pools to practice with, your pretty much restricted to Guangdong, primarily Guangzhou (Sum Nung, Fung family Pien San, Mai Gei Wong), Foshan (Pan Nam, Yiu Kai's son, Lun Gai (Yip Man), Kwok Gai (Pao Fa Lien)), and Shunde (Chan Yiu-Min family). The local Jing Mo (Chin Woo) in each city can help immensely. Some have the sifu teaching classes at the Jing Mo facilities, while others know how to contact them. Quality can vary astronomically from the peerless old masters to others whose exposure to WCK has been spotty at best, so, like anywhere, be careful.

Rgds,

RR

[Cashier Graham]

I would say it's up to you which it is, you can learn the hard aspects or the soft aspects exclusively or you can learn both. I think the point of being hard/soft is that unlike a completly hard martial art or completely soft martial art we can choose what type of energy we use for the current situation.

[scotty1]

And OMG ReneRitchie, I've been looking for information like this for ever!! Well, at least a year, ever since I've been planning my trip.
Have you trained WC in China yourself?
What is a Jing Mo?
Heard anything about WC in Vietnam?

Thanks again everyone.

[reneritchie]

Scotty,

My sigung lives in Guangzhou and I've been there to visit him. Jing Mo (commonly Chin Woo) is a *very* famous athletic association (the movies Fist of Fury w/Bruce Lee and Fist of Legend w/Jet Lee deal with the death of one of the Chin Woo leaders). They are generally places where martial teachers of different systems get together and offer classes. I believe they have some standardized northern forms as a curriculum all their own, but you can find mantis, lost track, eagle, etc. and in Guanzhou, Foshan, and HK, you can find Wing Chun. Not all the teachers actually teach there, mind you, but they can usually arrange contact if not. You can do it other ways as well (letters of introduction, friends who study under someone there and will take you around, etc.) but that's one of the more accessible ways.

Rgds,

RR

[sunkuen]

Originally posted by black and blue



Ps. WC = no deep stances, no high kicks, no huge movements,



Yip Man did all three !!!:p

[black and blue]

Only when he was dancing!:rolleyes:

[sunkuen]

If you wanna call Wing Chun dancing, thats fine with me!!!

[Sharky]

scotty research before you jump into a new school.

eg, kamon do not spar. this is fine if you don't want to spar. acually i heard that once you get to instructor (or near) level you do spar, but i never did it or saw it (but then i wasn't near instructor level). they always denounced sparring as not being wing chun. this is my experience.

[black and blue]

You are right about the sparring at Kamon. People do pad-up and spar at a higher level, but this certainly isn't something you'll do when you first start.

I think we've discussed Kamon and feeding techniques before, and I got the impression it wasn't to your liking. I'm not sure what clubs you trained at and for how long, so it's difficult to give relevant examples you may have witnessed.

Feeding techiques for those not just starting out can be done quickly with three or four random attacks (jabs, hooks, haymakers, uppercuts, grabs, strangles, tackles). The aim, for example, is to throw punches without pads and let your partner work off them.

When describing this, it sometimes gives the impression the punches are slow and weak... errrr.... NO! For beginners they should be (we're not trying to kill new members), but once you've got a flavour for what is happening, they ought to have speed and weight behind them.

I've been smacked about several times when not paying close enough attention to what is happening (hence Black and Blue). Start with them slow to make sure you keep structure and principles in mind, and then pick up the speed and power to make it more realistic.

There's been a few posts recently regarding sparring and the problems of wearing pads. Personally, I like to pad-up and have a bash once in a while, but I think Kamon's approach is more realistic. Less of a tendency to bob up and down, throw padded punches, and defend with half-hearted motions because you're dealing with a pad rather than cutting knuckles. Light sparring can lead to a false sense of security in my opinion.

But you are quite right with regards Scotty1. Everyone should choose a WC club carefully depending on their needs. This Ironfist chap should move to the UK, there are WC clubs everywhere. Some good, some really bad:rolleyes:

Duncan

Ps. How's the boxing going? There must be a close connection. I don't know anyone doing WC that doesn't like a ring fight.:)

[old jong]

The better you get in Wing Chun,the more relaxed you are so ,you could as old as me!...or even older, as Yuanfen...:D :D :D and still improve with good practice. Of course, you have to be in a school where they don't mistake good Kung Fu for push-ups or sit-ups capacity! :rolleyes: