Tai Chi In MMA ??? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Mutant

04-03-2002, 03:31 PM

Shooter, this is not my own experience and I am not a Tai Chi guy...and this only one of those "my sifu told me" stories....but anyway, this is what I've been told about which may or may not be interesting to Tai Chi practitioners who are thinking about competing in MMA or full contact.

My Sifu Mr. Yu told me that one of the very best kung fu masters he ever met was a Tai Chi Chuan sifu in China who was strict traditionalist (totally different than Mr. Yu, who often rags on traditionalists who are caught up in forms, so this was not a case of style tainted master worship, quite the opposite coming from Mr. Yu). This guy was training San Da fighters who where very competitive on a National level within China, who he said were excellent well rounded fighters.
He said that this sifu (wish I knew his name) trained his fighters with traditional tai chi forms and exercises, but that when they fought, they didnt nessesarily look like they were doing Tai Chi, but good clean San Da, in which they could use their techniques.

Sorry if thats not the specific answer you were looking for, as I don't know what specific training methods they were doing or ring strategies that they employed, only that it was from a traditional Tai Chi Chuan background and that they were obviously training hardcore enough to be very competitive in San Da. Just wanted to add that to your discussion, because I seldom hear of Tai Chi fighters training hardcore for full contact fighting.

Shooter

04-03-2002, 03:40 PM

Water Dragon, I agree with the irrelevance of technique, but which Tai Chi concepts are you currently working on in terms of ring-control and strategic movement, and how will you apply them in accord with the opponent's movement?

How (if at all) are you planning to apply Tai Chi's positional concepts in formulating your strategies?

Water Dragon

04-03-2002, 03:42 PM

Shooter

04-03-2002, 03:48 PM

Dude, I work straight off yielding, leading and following. I use the Tui Shou to let me know what technique I'm setting up. I know, hard to explain. It's one of those I need to let you feel me type deals.

Water Dragon, it's not as simple as what you wrote above. We chatted about this last night, and even my first-year training partners can explain in detail how Tai Chi's positional concepts are applied to the movement and intention of an opponent.

Stacey

04-03-2002, 05:58 PM

in the way that people use JKD concepts, I use tai chi concepts in mantis and san shou fighting.

I don't know tai chi fighitng, few people really do...I do what water dragon does.

Pung to lui/in an arm is great, but I add a right hook after a left punch and before the lui.....the punch strait to the earth and I get a nice hook in....

Real tai chi involves immediate dislocation, what I did what tai chi-esque, but nothing grand.

Once in a san shou match I absorbed a flying kick, circled it up and the guy frew on his ass...it was judged a "slip" and the kick counted.

Tai Chi has helped my grappling 500 percent. All sensetivity and the roots are outstanding.

Shooter

04-03-2002, 09:35 PM

MutantWarrior, thanks. That's interesting, and consistant with the idea that there doesn't necessarily have to be "identifiable kung fu techniques" which are peculiar to a given system in order for their underlying principles to be present.

Leonidas

04-03-2002, 10:19 PM

I've read about the same thing alot, that when masters from different styles met and fought you couldn't tell one style from the other. Whether its Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Chang Chuan, Hung Gar, White Crane etc. They all looked the same, just straight kicking, punching, throwing. You could tell a bit of a difference from how they handled attack and defence but you get the point.

bamboo_ leaf

04-03-2002, 11:28 PM

Stacy, If you don’t know how to use TC fighting how can you know who dose or dose not?

L, I don’t see how this could really be true having some experience with different styles, the better people that I have met always looked and demonstrated movements, usage of their style. If they didn’t I would say there is a big disconnect between their training and usage.

I think what shooter, is talking about is something that makes TC very different, most people and styles operate on conditioned reflexes, this deals directly with speed, power and strength. Something that people really put a lot of time in developing and can be very style specific.

TC deals with or attempts to deal directly with coordination of consciousness with the body. This is really independent of style but I haven’t seen it addressed as directly as in TC, (most styles are concerned about overcoming the others body) even with in those that play TC not many that I have met really train this directly. (Meaning they are kind of stuck at one level of their training, haven’t gotten past the outer form)

By working with the intent you can control the space a person uses. Think of 2 people in a hallway walking opposite directions. Each trying to avoid and pass the other but some how they manage to hit each other.

One senses the intent of the others direction before they step out, and moves, unfortunately if the other cannot also sense it one person tends to be out of sync and they bump or really have to get around each other. I think most people have done or felt this.

This is not to say what is better but only to identify some very fundamentally differences in thought and approaches to MA.

If you feel that what you do trains this cool, but I would say for most if you stop and think what you are training it will be different then what I am talking about.

Shooter

04-04-2002, 10:18 AM

bamboo_leaf, the example you used is from a vantage point of much deeper insight and experience, but you nailed it. The main difference is my having to structure the methodologies on a level everyone with whom I train for MMA can understand from a common frame of reference.

For most Tai Chi players, it's a matter of really understanding the 5 Steps and learning to really differentiate sticking and following. These ideas are where Tai Chi's positional strategies and movement come from. I give them structure by defining their usage based on points of reference pertinent to ring-fighting and the intent of the opponent.

Shooter

04-04-2002, 11:50 AM

Based on what's come out in this discussion so far, how do the 5 Steps, and stick and follow apply to ring-control and strategic movement? How would they be used in relation to the opponent's movement and intention?

Are these ideas within the training paradigm in how you future Tai Chi fighters will prepare your game plan? Or will you draw from another source outside of Tai Chi in formulating your ring strategies?

Thanks in advance...

Water Dragon

04-04-2002, 01:42 PM

OK, This one I can contribute to. When I fight, the first thing I want is physical contact with the opponent. I like to get my hands on the other guys shoulders and keep a pound or so of pressure on him. What I’m doing is trying to connect into his center through the shoulder so I can stay in control. This also keeps me on top of his center so that I can nullify the shoot when it comes. This is kinda like a sprawl but a little different.

Anyhoo, the pound of pressure is stick. I need to keep that pressure there so I can feel a change in movement. If the pressure increases, I know that’s a forward motion which is most likely an attack on the way. At this point, I’ll try and yield and then juice him into a tech of my own (this is leading) This is where the Shuai Chiao comes in. Simply because, IMO, the art is better at exploiting the other guys structure. That’s what Shuai Chiao is known for, that’s what it excels in.

If I feel a decrease in the pressure, that tells me there’s a backward motion which is going to be either an attempt to disengage, or the guy’s trying to be sneaky and come around the side door. In either case, this is the time where you increase the pressure to get him off balance a little (This is following) This is also the time to initiate your own attack.

Remember, that this whole thing plays out in a fraction of a second. Being able to feel where a person is going comes from a lot of cooperative Tui Shou. Also, not every attempt is going to occur in a result and it’s possible to add little things in to force a response. I LOVE to come in, jostle the left shoulder, jostle the right shoulder, and then pop both and rush in for an attack. What can I say, works for me.

I don’t use the 5 steps. I was always taught the stepping just happens as a part of the yield/lead/follow. The other funky thing I use that I have absolutely no idea how to explain is seeing circular movements. It’s kinda like: If your coming at me, there’s going to be a “path line of force” that YOU CAN SEE. It’s not really that you know where the force is going, it’s that you know where it’s NOT going and you place your body where that point is. Anyone else ever experience this one?

Merryprankster

04-04-2002, 01:49 PM

WaterDragon,

Yes.

I call it "Mat sense."

It's that sensitivity you develop over time to other people's movements IMO, especially in grappling.

If you don't develop it, you'll always suck :)

elua

04-04-2002, 03:43 PM

That sounds cool and all but how do you deal with someone that practices laying in the guard 10 hours a day and butt scoots when you are pressing his shoulders(falls down and invites you to mount)? How do you apply those principles when you have a ground and pounder that out weighs you by 100 lbs folding you up? Or the wrestler that has practiced doubles and singles since he was 6? What I am asking is how do you apply taiji once you are on your back? Principles are great but isn`t actual technique at least as important?

Water Dragon

04-04-2002, 05:51 PM

:D :D :D

OK. Techniques, at their true level, are nothing but principles. This is the part I love about CMA. The way you look at a technique defines how you see the art. I'll use BJJ as an example as I'm trying to apply this to my learning of that art at the present moment.

BJJ has basically a few techniques ran from the five superior positions. Example, BJJ has a sweep. Doesn't matter if it's a scissor, elevator, push sweep, etc. These are variations of an "idea" or principle. When you grasp the principle, you do the same sweep every time but change it for the situation by intuition. You "master" the technique by understanding the principle. In essence, you MUST learn the technique to learn the principle.

Tui Shou or push hands is a skill set that teaches a different type of technique. When we are referring to sticking, following, leading, etc. We are talking about this ability the body gains to feel and control someone else's center of gravity. This exists on the ground as well. The area changes though from the center of the hips to the center of the chest. BJJ drives the weight into this to immobilize it. If I'm in top, even in guard, I "ride" it like a wave. If I can control it, I can keep your body from getting the positioning to go for a sweep or arm attack as well as feel around for an opportunity to pass. What you do will determine how I move, but that's OK. There's only one guard pass with a lot of variations.

That's basically how I see a merging of principle and technique. I just focus on this while rolling until the game begins to "click" one day out on the mat. That's just my opinion though.

Water Dragon

04-04-2002, 05:57 PM

Oh and Merry, that's what makes Shuai Chiao different than Judo. IMO of course :)

Merryprankster

04-04-2002, 06:00 PM

What water dragon said.

Except he'll learn there are actually TWO sweeps in BJJ, and two guard passes :) There is, however, only one guard break :)

And he needs to play with some high-level Judoka :)

Water Dragon

04-04-2002, 06:08 PM

Are you referring to standing vs. seated? If so I'm all screwed up. I was starting to see the sweep as flipping someone over their own center and the breaking as the principle of the pass. What'd I miss?

And uh, Merry needs to play with MonkeySlap Too :D

Merryprankster

04-04-2002, 06:32 PM

Sweeps come in two varieties--

You bring them over your center to make them "float" and then dump them to the weakest available area (depends on sweep, obviously), or you dump them backwards over their "frozen" limbs.

Best examples--scissor sweep (over the center and dump to the side) and the one where they stand up and you have one foot in the hip, and you pivot on your side, cut one leg out with your other leg and one leg out with your hand/arm. I don't know what you call it-- and they go backwards. The hip bump sweep (where you fake kimura and sit up) is another example of that, but it's harder to see.

I tried for a long time to make it "one sweep," but ultimately had to give in and make it two. The mechanics of setting them up and the execution are so different (IMO) that it's ultimately impossible to reconcile them without resorting to terms so general that they become kinda meaningless (but that's a personal opinion. You may have some other understanding).

Basically, in one, you make them "weightless," and in the other, you make them "Stick to the ground," and topple them over the "stuck" bits--like pushing somebody over a log.

With the guard passing--you have two kinds--the kind where you keep their back flat and immobilize their hips, and the kind where you pivot them on their hips/side to get around their legs. Fundamentally, very different, in my mind.

With the guard breaking, only one break--immobilize the hips. This "shortens" the legs so they can't twist and turn to keep the guard locked. Even if they try to sit up to make you carry their weight if you stand, same principle applies. You'd like to keep their back flat so they can't attack you, and most are geared towards that... but if you focus on pinning the hips, they can't attack anyway, really.

Water Dragon

04-04-2002, 07:44 PM

OK. Cool on the guard pass thing. I've only been introduced to the pressing the hips down method. I can't see the other one yet, but have time.

On the sweeps, I was seeing it as you have a line going down the center of your body and all your weight in the middle of your chest. I was feeling for the point when the body tips over the center (the line rotates 90 *) and then rolling them over. I was seeing the sweep as similar to the Upa.

The breaking makes sense too. Never thought of it, but yeah, I definately do now.

Question: Right now I'm focusing on sweeps, escapes, and passing only. If I do get top, I just try to move positions. I want to get that aspect down and then focus on subs 1 or 2 at a time. Probably do armbars and triangles (including arm triangles next) Then maybe all the keylocks and the rest of the no gi chokes, etc. Stick with one idea until I get it and then move on to the next. What are your thoughts on this.

You do realize the BJJ guys I know don't think like this don't you? We ARE talking Gong Fu now, IMO.

Shooter

04-04-2002, 09:52 PM

Water Dragon, that's very interesting. Thanks. :)

jimmy23

04-04-2002, 11:13 PM

Badger , you flatter me!

I have a lot more MMA expreience than I do tai chi. I could write about what i saw in tai chi and how i feel it can be appplied to MMA, but Im not sure thats what Shooter is looking for.

Shooter

04-04-2002, 11:54 PM

jimmy, anything you wanna share from your experience is welcome :)

NafAnal

04-05-2002, 05:09 AM

Heh like the sabrutat quote

jimmy23

04-05-2002, 05:48 AM

got to work now, will post tonight

Merryprankster

04-05-2002, 08:53 AM

For the guard pass thing, grab a partner who is just willing to let you experiment a little bit, so you can "get the idea."

Have him go on his back, with his knees bent and feet flat on the floor.

Kneel in front of him, slightly off to his left

Grab his left leg on the gi pants (or ankle or whatever for no gi), with your left arm

Grab his left gi sleeve (or wrist for no gi) with your right arm.

Now, stand up, and try to pull him to the roof with your right arm, while pushing away and towards his right foot with your left. Knee on belly is a cinch from here.

It's a little more intricate than that, but that's it, in a nutshell.

However, as you see, this pass bears little physical resemblance in structure to the "back flat, hips pinned," passes. There are some others that follow this kind of principle.

As far as your understanding of sweeps, if that works for you, roll with it. I just found that I couldn't think of it all as one or the concept became so generalized as to be somewhat worthless to me. Much better to think of them, for me, as being in the category of "floating," sweeps and "tipping over a log" sweeps.

Your approach to BJJ sounds fine to me. However, one thing I would add to the arsenal is armbar from closed guard. The reason for this is that the hip movement of doing the basic armbar from the guard (where you turn perpendicular to the opponent) is so important for many moves, including several sweeps, that it needs to be drilled from the get go. (omo plata sweep, kneebar sweeps, bicep pinch sweeps, helicopter (flower) sweeps, etc)

As for the thought thing--I think you'll find that most skilled higher level players do think this way...and then they think of specific little things they have to do in order to get the principle to work right. Lloyd doesn't tell me where to grab EXACTLY, he tells me to keep his back flat, when I do the cut-over-guard pass I prefer to initiate with. I can grab at the near side collar, the near shoulder, or behind the head while I pull up hard on the near side arm, adjusting as I need to, as long as he's frozen to the mat. If he's not, he bails out, and I have to move on. Our new brown belt uses the double underhooks/stacking guard pass, and does some things with his elbows and knees that really improve the effectiveness of the pass. If he didn't do them, there would be space to escape. As it is, it's very hard to deal with :)

3D Man

04-08-2002, 01:38 PM

With BJJ, the sensitivity comes from hours of rolling. The ability to sense and choose the correct action quickly. Base equals root. Relaxation is common to all fighting arts. BJJ sensitivity comes from rolling. My tai chi is better becasue of my bjj.

As far as tai chi chuan moves that work in mixed martial arts: Rollback/wrestlers come along are the same. Golden **** Stands on One Leg is the same as a muay thai block. Embrace Tiger and Return to Mountain is a classic sprawl. The list is long. There is a lot in Tai Chi Chuan.

Liokault

04-09-2002, 10:00 AM

As a Traditional Tai Chi guy who fights lots of hard kung fu and mauy thai guys in san shou I can tell you that Tai Chi can be used very well in this way.

BUT it depends on how you train.....if you think that spending 10 years doing hand form will teach you to fight than you are in for a huge suprise!!!

I have spent 12 years wrestling with guys who want to take me down, sparing with guys who have just walked into the room and want to prove their style is great. All this time my training has consisted of very traditional Tai Chi techniques, pushing hands, etc.

Most of what i do in san shou is very similar to what i have seen most Tai Chi guys do- close in very easly (ofton from an angle) once close and hitting the guy either put in a take down sweep of just continue hitting the guy out of the lai tai. I could go indepth about the exact Tai Chi principles being used during san shou fights but I think you may not understand then.

Also I belive some of my teachers own teachers (Dan Docherty) students are currently involved in any thing goes contests, The 2 guys in thinking of are Kamel Lock and a guy called Nick whos sir mane I forget. I belive they are currently active in Vale Tudo but may be wrong.

bamboo_ leaf

04-09-2002, 10:51 AM

“I could go indepth about the exact Tai Chi principles being used during san shou fights but I think you may not understand then.”

So why don’t you give it a go. We may be able to learn something with our limited understanding, ya never know. :)

Water Dragon

04-09-2002, 10:55 AM

Anyone else notice that the Leaf has been a little feisty lately?

Shooter

04-09-2002, 04:22 PM

Liokault, give it a shot. :) You never know.

Liokault

04-10-2002, 03:41 AM

Ok Shooter here goes:

this list is in no order as I am just putting things in as they come to me.

Gathering the wave against straight kicks, etc.

Seven stars step against any attack and as a method of entering.

Rolling thunder into an opponents void (normally to raise their guard before a take down or to move them off the lai tai).

Koa as part of takedowns or to move an opponent off the lai tai.

Attacking high when an opponent is strong low, etc.

Destroying the balance of an opponent.

Attacking though the void.

Leading an opponent into his void.

Making contact with an opponents arms and adhering (much harder in some ways with any sort of gloves on but still well worth doing and pretty much the cornerstone of tai chi)

Ok this is just a short list I have pulled out of the air and im sure that if I sat and thought a bit longer i could double this. I have not even started on the classics. Also I would like to point out that Tai Chi principles are not just restricted to students of Tai Chi. Many of the things that you see boxers do or wrestlers do can be justified using Tai Chi principles (not to say that it makes it good Tai Chi though).:o

MA fanatic

04-10-2002, 04:13 AM

The problem is not in Tai Chi's lack of depth of combat applications, it is in the way it it taught. Tai Chi (if you do your research on the combat side of tai chi) incorporates pressure point strikes, joint manipulation and throws. Unfortunately most who teach Tai Chi go no deeper into combat applications than Push Hands. Originally many Tai Chi forms were created to hide pressure point striking combinations. However, even with that said, someone practicing tai chi even on a combat level, will most likely be defeated in an MMA event. Guys train for MMA events like they would fight in those MMA events. There is not untested theory. There are no unproven techniques. There are not legends, stories, and myths. What you see is what you get when it comes to NHB/MMA. A tai chi practitioner would find himself very overwhelmed when it comes to taking hard body shots. head shots, and hard take downs. They would certainly find themselves lost once on the ground. If I was a tai chi practitioner, I would either quickly join a school which specializes in full contact sparring and ground work. Or, I wouldn't step into an NHB ring.
MA fanatic

MA fanatic

04-10-2002, 04:16 AM

Lio:
These are all fancy theories, and some even have creative pretty names. But, once in the ring, I think the Tai Chi fighter would quickly realize how all he knows is just that, a theory. If I was a tai chi guy hoping to do well in mma, I would cross train in Muay Thai, and BJJ. Lio, you're defending Tai Chi's effectiveness, but you yourself have cross trained in other arts. I'm sure you have cross trained in Muay Thai, boxing, and grappling. San Shou is not Tai Chi. What is taught in that form of fighting is all very testable. Techniques in wrestling and muay thai are all practiced with resistance from partners. Training in contested. Most tai chi schools never address the combat side of Tai Chi. Does the combat side exist? Sure. Tai Chi Chuan could be one of the deadlist arts around. Does anyone know it? Perhaps only a handfull of masters. Earl Montaigue has a lot of information on the combat side of Tai Chi. His stuff is well worth the money. However, he to was a grappler before he studied Tai Chi. On an average, I think most Tai Chi guys would be destroyed in MMA competitions.
MA fanatic

Repulsive Monkey

04-10-2002, 04:31 AM

Unfortunately Fanatic your knowledge falls a little short here. Many of those titles which were mentioned are very real and can be devestating. A well trained Tai Chi practitioner wouldn't step into a NHB ring because he would end killing someone. Dian Xue (press point spotting) is when learnt correctly, will not just hurt someone but in 90% of the cases will kill someone. When you say that you would cross-train Tai Chi with BJJ or Muay Thai I have to have a private laugh to be honest, because if you learn Tai Chi correctly there is no way in the world you are gonna need these arts. One class mate of mine informed me that he had recently been in an unlicensed fight with 2 (at once) BJJ fighters, and I asked how he felt about their style, and unfortunately he said "keep with Tai Chi and don't soil yourself (with BJJ)".

Reima Kostaja

04-10-2002, 04:47 AM

Ah, all properly trained Tai Chi practitioners and masters are too enlightened or just too deadly to fight in a nhb style competitions.

Repulsive Monkey

04-10-2002, 05:52 AM

I just feel its a little inappropriate thats all. In fact I don't really understand the point in NHB competitions at all, I mean in their limited rules they show no real evdidence of superiority in a real fighting situation do they? The conditions are just so false, I mean is any going to tell me that a semi staged in front of TV cameras for an audience to stimulate sales in physical contact sports are gonna compare AT ALL to someone defending themsleves from a mugger in the street? Don't get me wrong in that I fully understand the legality on what you are and are not allowed to show on a TV program, and they certainly wouldn't show the death or near-death of an opponent for a plethora of reasons, but it is certainly incommparable don't you think?

KnightSabre

04-10-2002, 06:10 AM

I have to agree with what MA fanatic said.
Tai Chi has the tools to be effective but the training is not realistic and the apponents not resistant enough.

Repulsive Monkey that story about the Tai Chi guy fighting 2 BJJ guys makes me laugh quietly to myself.Kind of reminds me of the story a friend told me about a Tae Kwon do guy who beat 3 ninjas.

KnightSabre

04-10-2002, 06:15 AM

thats right Repulsive Monkey the push hands competitions that they have in Tai Chi is far more realistic than NHB comps.

dezhen2001

04-10-2002, 06:19 AM

push hands isn't fighting, it's just a training method to develop technique and sensitivity. similar to sticking hands in wing chun.

david

Liokault

04-10-2002, 07:06 AM

Hey MA fanatic

I have never at any point cross trained with other arts....all I have ever done is traditional Tai Chi (probably very different to what you think of as trad Tai Chi though).

I The real differance is that I have always been taught Tai Chi as a martial art by a martial artist. We do very little co-operative training- every guy who throws a punch at me is trying to take my head off and every guy who wrestlers with me is trying very hard to flatten me. Also we will spar on any one who comes though the door.

I spend many hours a week hitting a heavy bag and doing pad work ......ok may be that is not traditional but its all Tai Chi.

The line of Tai Chi that i have been taught though has many fighters in it....go look up Dan Docherty and Chen Tin-Hung. They do not advocate arm waveing or empty force and beliveing that 10 years of doing hand form will make you invulnerable but they do advocate hard work and realistic training.

PS where the hell is the spell check on this thing?

Merryprankster

04-10-2002, 07:38 AM

Repulsive,

NHB (misnomer) fights do not duplicate a street setting. This is true. There are more unknowns in the street. So be it.

What the ring DOES do is provide a laboratory for testing fighting skill. Note that I didn't say self defense. The fighting skill of Renzo Gracie is undeniable, however, he once slapped a gas station manager in an altercation, when he RETURNED to the scene of the initial confrontation. Justified or not, cultural differences aside, this is lousy "self defense."

So, does ring success guarentee success in the street? No. There is a strong component of situational awareness that is missing for the ring, common sense, etc. But it DOES test at least the efficacy of your fighting skills. It also tests your spatial awareness since it's held in an enclosed space. It teaches you to take a shot. It also teaches you to handle adrenaline dump. Don't overlook that.

We all acknowledge that trained fighters of any sort are dangerous opponents. Nobody says a decent boxer is an easy opponent, or a decent wrestler is an easy opponent, yet, when it comes time to discuss training methods...oh my....

I don't understand the resistance here to the idea that ring training is effective at increasing your ability to fight.

Is it the end all be all? That is where the debate lies.

Shooter

04-10-2002, 10:38 AM

Liokualt, thanks. Those are certainly sound tactical ideas, but they don't address the questions I was hoping to get some feedback on from the Tai Chi guys here who've competed, or plan to do so in the future. Just wanting some confirmation of what my own understanding is of Tai Chi's positional strategies and how those concepts are applied to ring-fighting and/or self-defense.

Tai Chi principles are not just restricted to students of Tai Chi. Many of the things that you see boxers do or wrestlers do can be justified using Tai Chi principles (not to say that it makes it good Tai Chi though).

No argument here...

Braden

04-10-2002, 10:44 AM

How's your colon looking, MA Fanatic?

bamboo_ leaf

04-10-2002, 03:12 PM

From reading your training it seem much like that of any other MA why bother calling it TC?
Oh it must be the movements. ;)

If you spend many hours a week hitting the heavy bag why not just take up boxing.

TC among some other arts are sometimes referred as higher MA. In these types of arts they attempt to train and use direct consciousness in movement instead of conditioned reflexes.

I missed this in your posting maybe it was between the hitting the bags or something.

Knifefighter

04-10-2002, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
In fact I don't really understand the point in NHB competitions at all, I mean in their limited rules they show no real evdidence of superiority in a real fighting situation do they? The conditions are just so false,

And what type of things do you do that are closer to reality?

MA fanatic

04-10-2002, 07:46 PM

I'm not sure how my colon got into the discussion. As long as someone asked, I would say it's pretty good. Thank you for being concerned.

Repulsive: I'm sure tai chi masters with their knowledge of meridians and pressure points are very deadly. The strange thing is, once again, all that was never proven. You actually see anyone get killed, or did your teacher tell you that a particular pressure point strike could kill? LOL How do you know? Because someone told you thats how. And, I'm sure that person has never seen that pressure point strike in action himself. I'm sure of it. I have heard myths about deadly blows for years. Never seen one. Actually, master Nakayama was told to have a deadly strike. Won all Japan full contact Karate championship with a broken arm. He could stack ten bricks, ask you to pick one, and break any brick you asked for by hitting the top brick. He fought full contact and never killed anyone. He actually laughed when he was asked about mastering death touch. He actually knew the meridians as well. All his power was in training. I have done my share of attending pressure point seminars, studying books on meridians, following George Dillman, and collecting Earl Montaigue videos and books. I have never seen any pressure point strike work. Have you? I have, however, seen them fail. Heck, George Dillman couldn't KO a BJJ black belt who was 5'4 145 (school owner from Chicago). How do you know that these trikes are so deadly? How? Try setting up a pressure point strike when someone is actually trying to hit your, take you down, choke you, and submit you (someone who knows what he is doing that is). Surely any tai chi master knows at least a few strikes which would merely KO an apponent instead of killing him. Why not try those? They wont because they cant. I'm surprised with so many avenues to legally test fighting skills, some traditional stylists still claim to be too deadly to fight. What a crock. Seems like any NHB competitor would be willing to put his so called life on the line against these mystical blows, but no master is willing to hurt anyone. Funny, before NHB all masters talked about was their deadliness.
MA fanatic
PS I suggest all go and ask their Tai Chi master if he had actually seen any deadly meridian strike work? If he says "yes." ASk him who killed who? When? What happened legally? Was someone arrested? You'll most likely be brushed off because you're a none believer. Same old sh.t.

MA fanatic

04-10-2002, 07:50 PM

Limmited NHB rules:
There are no limmited rules. In Vale Tudo competitions they only ask for you to not 1) eye gouge and 2) bite. Surely a tai master would have enough skills in his arsenal to take out any novice full contact fighter without biting. There are so many books on defeating grapplers using KF and Tai Chi. So far, I haven't seen anyone actually put that knowledge into practice. Sounds like a scam to me. Teaching tai chi without full contact sparring and theory, is limmited. I would put my money on a guy trained in Muay Thai or San Shou Kung Fu for 1 year, than someone trained in tai chi for 6 years.
MA Fanatic

Shooter

04-10-2002, 08:49 PM

:p ...awesome post, MA fanatic!

In all my years as a boxing and full-contact fighting "enthusiast," I've seen literally hundreds of pressure point KOs...liver shots, tan tien shots, fight stoppers of all sorts....with bare fists, and gloves of various weights to soften the blows no less.

Nope...they don't work in the ring...why would anyone think they'd work outside of the ring? :p

Xebsball

04-10-2002, 09:21 PM

Shooter is right.

As a matter of fact ive seen on a kickboxing match a guy being knocked out when hit by a punch to the solar plexus.

Repulsive Monkey

04-11-2002, 02:27 AM

You make way too many presumptions dear fellow, and they only weaken your defence. I have a dear friend of mine in the UK who is serving a manslaughter charge for defending himself in a fight which he didn't start. His creddentials are what swayed it for the jury and his competition sucesses, and the fact of the matter is is that he struck Stomch 9 on the the attacker and killed him. OK. Satisfied? It had the correct effect in Dian Xue and collapsed the Carotid Artery and caused Brain death. And yes my Master has witnessed similar circumstances in his younger years out in SE Asia.

MA fanatic

04-11-2002, 04:36 AM

Repulsive:
I make too many assumptions. You just posted exactly what I said. You base your knowledge one what your master had witnessed in Asia. Who killed how in asia? Did the person get a death penalty? Was anyone arrested? NO. IT was perhaps done in a secret challenge match or a life or death duel. Please. Same old stuff. I believe the story about your friend in UK though. Why do I believe it? Because I am familiar with Stomach nine point. Actually, even a novice can kill anyone with a good shot at the vegas nerve, chorotic artery, throat, temple, base of the skull, spine, etc. So your friend popped some guy and the guy died. Happens all the time. Judging by that, boxers and grapplers are the deadliest people alive. Do meridians exist? Sure. I in fact am also a strong believer in accupuncture. Listen, do this Repulsive. Instead of argueing. Go down to a local grappling gym, see how quickly you can set up a pressure point strike before your twisted into a pretzel. I have seen guys from hapkido, kung fu, aikido, and even ninjitsu come down to our gym hoping to use pressure points, all have been twisted and banged up. There was even a pressure point master from Okinawan Kyoshu jitsu style who fought in UFC 7. He went up against a grappler named Remko Pardoe and tried exactly the strikes you described (stomach 9, the works). Guess what, he tapped out in under 3 minutes.

I think martial arts have reached the golden years when masters have the avenue to test their skills. Unfortunately, only a few have taken that chance. The same chance they for years have wanted, now they fear. Why is it that grappling masters said, "you know, I want to see if my techniques really work?" Then went out and competed. Some strikers and even TMA guys did the same. Others sit back and talk about some deadly knowledge they possess with which they simply don't want to kill people. LOL Yet, all the NHB fighters are willing to take a chance on the stomach 9 shot. lol Repulsive, wake up man, you're believing a myth. As for deadly strikes to throat area, yes it is very deadly. But trust me, grappling masters have numerous deadly techniques (like neck cranks, spine locks, and even pressure points) they don't use in NHB. Yet, they still fight.

MA fanatic

Liokault

04-11-2002, 04:36 AM

Any one who is going to try to hit some one at some point should be doing lots of bag work. This is not to say that any one who hit a bag is a boxer.......Also for me its more about improveing stamina than makeing my punch better.

Repulsive Monkey

04-11-2002, 06:14 AM

You crack me up mate, with your verbal posturing you really do. Your presumptuousness is you finest quality. Of course spotting is present in other arts, thats nothing new, but this all relates back to the comment you made about saying Tai Cho ok but it would be better served if cross-trained with BJJ & M.T. Plenty of different arts have plenty of different methods, some for maiming some for killing. A grappling art seems to illustrate that that is primarily what it results in, but not completely, however all I'm saying is that traditionally Tai Chi was trained in as an art which primarily ended up killing people, and evbidence of this is documented orally and literally.

Your presum,ptions about my master are insipid and AGAIN weaken your attack Fanatic, why do you presume to make up information about others that you know nothing about? Why can't you accept honest information given to you?

I acn see that this dialogue between may not reach an amicable agreement and therefore maybe we better stop before it all goes off at a hundered and one different tangents? Don't you agree?

Merryprankster

04-11-2002, 06:39 AM

Repulsive--

Drop back for a second and look behind the words of MA Fanatic.

Your honest information is of unknown veracity and origin. You might believe it--and I have no reason to believe that you would lie about your friend in jail (sorry by the way), but as for the verbal history stuff, a giant "so what," pops immediately into my mind.

The stuff that MMA types have is documented. That's really all we ask. It's documented on tape and easily verifiable.

The argument about "deadly strikes" becomes a mess very quickly:

"Tai Chi is for killing. We have deadly techniques. Can't compete fully because we'd hurt somebody too badly or kill them."

"Really? How do you know this? Have you tested it?"

"No, we haven't tested it. I told you, it's deadly. But sifu says that this used to happen all the time in Asia."

"Really? Is it documented? Where can I find information with legitimately researched sources?"

"Sifu says this was passed down by his master and his master's master and..."

"Oh... so you have no way of knowing if this really works."

"Yes I do, it works because Tai Chi is for killing."

"Thanks for playing our game!"

Now, what MA Fanatics REAL point is, is this--there are high percentage things and low percentage things. Your friend killing that guy was very low percentage, meaning that a freak combination of events peculiar to that situation must have occurred in order to kill the individual. Your friends situation is the exception that proves the rule. Otherwise people would be keeling over dead from gut shots that accidentally hit that point constantly.

It's rather like the idea of stopping the heart with a punch. Can it be done? You betcha! There's an instant in their cardiac cycle at which you can screw up somebody's heart beat if you whack them there hard enough. How likely is it? Very unlikely. You have a much higher percentage of deaths from people who receive head trauma in a fight, I'm sure, than those who die from a heart punch. Certainly more KO's from head shots!

So, what MA is really getting at is this: IF your style relies heavily on "deadly strikes," which are most likely low percentage and you train them a lot, then you are personally probably not training in less esoteric, but probably more valuable fighting skills. It's a difference in training philosophy, and that's fine. For instance, I've seen some american Kenpo, in which the finishing move is about a strike to the throat with the fingers. Well, frankly, I'd rather just throw the guy to the rear (the control in that situation allows you to do so). Why? A throat shot is low percentage, by comparison, and the throw serves the same purpose of letting me run like hell.

Shooter--that's not fair! MA fanatic was discussing the use of "pressure points," in the George Dillman sense, and here you are talking about hard shots to the liver, the heart, kidneys, heck, even the temple. I would hardly call those pressure points, but to each their own :)

Repulsive Monkey

04-11-2002, 08:27 AM

I welcome your response cannot take it in its entirety due to some of the generalisations. I am not being pernickity but the hypothetical dialogue you wrote is hardly representative of what I've spoken of. I'll be honest I do trust my Master in what he says, and I ceratinly know when to use my own logic with others things that he says. He is no god, he just a practitioner like me, however from what I haved experienced so far over the years has lead me to appreciate when the man is telling first hand experience and mere conjecture.

When well trainied Dian Xue practitioners apply finger spotting it can hardly be called Low percentage. My friends skill was able enough with his finger to defend (yet unfortunately take anothers life) himself, and that was the only move he made. He obviously felt on that occasion (though I am sure that that doesn't mean every occasion) that that was all he needed, maybe. I will not be biased here and say Dian Xue works and is amazingly superior to all other methods of all other arts, because there are many occasions when other actions are deemed better. To finish my long winded diatribe I would just to go back one final time a redress what MA FAnatic said about Tai Chi's ok but it would be better backed up with Cross-Training in BJJ etc. The fact remains that Tai Chi is a whole art and therefore doesn't need it. It Like all other whole arts can stand alone.

I fear this whole segment of this thread maybe got derailed a few messages back and will therefore close my comments down from here on in this partcular area.

koycymru

04-11-2002, 08:35 AM

I have a TKD tourny coming up on Saturday and noticed that this thread was a train wreck. Any tips for me?

Kumkuat

04-11-2002, 08:37 AM

Umm, MA fanatic. I think you should look towards other people other than Erle for your taiji knowledge. I don't think the main point of taiji is about these pressure point attacks. In fact, i have never heard any high level, linage based master talk of pressure points or whatever.

But in related topic, yeah, for normal taijiquan players, taiji is bascially useless for fights either in the ring with skilled fighter or maybe even in the streets against unskilled fighters.

Kumkuat

04-11-2002, 08:39 AM

koycymru: Do lots of conditioning, sparring, and drilling. Not necessary in that order.

Xebsball

04-11-2002, 08:53 AM

You mma guys

I dont think any serious MA person ever relied on pressure points alone to win. That would be the incorect method.
The Tai Chi peeps as well as everyone else know that they need power generation, speed, timining and all those other stuff to win.

Liokault

04-11-2002, 09:34 AM

Ok I know this is all off thread but anyway:

Bamboo_leaf you ask me why i still call it Tai Chi....I still call it Tai Chi as it is pure Tai Chi. My style and teachers have not forgoten the things that made Tai Chi a martial art all that time ago like so many seam to have and that is the problem here. None of you guys see Tai Chi as a martial art as all you see is new age crap taught by guys who know a poor hand form and variouse semi original types of pushing hands (but will have forgoten why they are doing pushing hands). thease guys never have any one try to hit, kick or throw them and will never learn to fight on any level.

Bamboo_leaf how long in your Chen Man Ching style Tai Chi must the "avarage" guy train before he picks up enough skill to fight with any confidance?

MA Fanatic you tell me that i train in boxing thai boxing and grappling. I do not and at no point ever have. Also yoiu state that san shou is not Tai Chi......This is correct. San shou is a FORMAT of fighting, a set or rules not an art in its self. I have fought many san shou fights againts thai boxers kick boxers guys who have cross trained in many things and also traditional cma guys. During my san shou carrear I have only had my Tai Chi to use and its doing well up to now.

Also I think that you should take what Earl Montaigue says with a pinch of salt. He makes many wild statments but they just do not add up to me.

elua

04-11-2002, 10:20 AM

"And what type of things do you do that are closer to reality?"

.375 magnum? Take Mario Sperry unarmed against a lumberjack with an axe who has swung one all day, all of his life. A little more realistic street scenerio than two guys in fight shorts laying in the guard/mount for 45 minutes. On the other hand I`m curious as to why most TCMA revert to kickboxing when sparring?

Liokault

04-11-2002, 10:51 AM

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/magazine_articles/tc_gladiator.html
Try this.....Dan talks about his fighting in the SE asian open tornement.

Shooter

04-11-2002, 10:56 AM

Merryprankster, pressure point application is a healing/hurting paradigm which has nothing to do with Dillman. If someone has tricked you into believing otherwise...God bless them. :p

and here you are talking about hard shots to the liver, the heart, kidneys, heck, even the temple. I would hardly call those pressure points, but to each their own

What would you call them? Please enlighten me. :)

bamboo_ leaf

04-11-2002, 11:09 AM

“None of you guys see Tai Chi as a martial art as all you see is new age crap taught by guys who know a poor hand form and variouse semi original types of pushing hands (but will have forgoten why they are doing pushing hands). thease guys never have any one try to hit, kick or throw them and will never learn to fight on any level.”

hey you fogot hippys, chi hugger and a couple of other things. :)

Well since you haven’t met me or know what things I have done I would say your conclusion is a mistake, in all of your posting I really see no mention of inner skills or training to achieve them.

I really don’t care who is king of the hill any more, my own focus is to gain real skills as much as my ability and understanding will allow.

My out look is one of achieving balance. I see no balance in your post, no allowance for other possibilities out side of your teachers, the idea of fighting the way you describe doesn’t seem to have much to do with balance.

Liokault

04-11-2002, 11:14 AM

Bamboo_leaf you did not answer my question.
How long in your Chen man ching till an "avarage" guy canbe considerd to have picked up actual fighting skills?

Knifefighter

04-11-2002, 11:45 AM

Repulsive Monkey:
You never answered my question.

Elua:
357M is definitely reality, but what happens when you don't have your gun with you?

Do you train empty handed and, if so, what do you do that is closer to reality?

Bamboo Leaf:
Weren't you going to fight in Kage Kombat? What ever happened with that?

bamboo_ leaf

04-11-2002, 12:54 PM

Depends on the person and teacher I would imagine, your reference to a style of TC taught by a certain teacher seems to be a very external view point. I would say all TC is the same just different expressions until it reaches a state of no expression.

I can’t speak for any others only my self and only about my TC.
I can use my tc and have used it in accordance with my won views on it. Of course there is still much to work on.

KF, Not the leaf, never, a little old maybe for that. Don’t mind messing around with people every now and then, but at this time it’s not the focus of my training.

As a younger leaf I did much of what many write about here. Not in all the contest stuff of today but between other MA testing and seeing what is and is not.

as a little older leaf still seeing what is and is not :)

Merryprankster

04-11-2002, 01:24 PM

Shooter--I hardly think pressure points are all about Dillman's version or vice versa. I was working off the definition that MA Fanatic was using. Sue me :)

And what would I call them? I would call them good shots :) Mostly because when I think of a "point," I envision something well... point like. The liver is hardly point like. And applying "pressure," to the liver doesn't drop somebody. On the other hand, whacking the crap out of it can :)

I really don't think there's a disagreement here other than terminology. I acknowledge those targets work, I just wouldn't call them pressure points because you aren't applying "pressure," in the usual usage, you're whacking it... and it's not a "point," because it's too **** big :)

And just for the record, the overintellectualization of this kind of stuff is what kills it.

"Don't stand there and look at what you did! MOVE, and keep moving!"

that sort of stuff is good enough for me :)

Braden

04-11-2002, 01:39 PM

MP - The misconceptions and over-intellectualizing about pressure points comes from people who a) are ignorant and haven't bothered to inform themselves and b) are uncomfortable with cultural references other than their own. So they jump to inaccurate conclusions then go around badmouthing the 'facts' that exist only in their heads.

Pressure points, at least in the chinese tradition, have absolutely nothing to do with dancing around at arms length from someone and gently poking tiny spots, and/or siezing someone and gently pressing tiny spots.

They have alot to do with learning the best places and ways to strike a human body as an add-on to previously established martial competence. And they have alot to do with whacking people really hard on those spots, moving in and whacking some more until they fall down and stop trying to get up.

Water Dragon

04-11-2002, 01:50 PM

...Which may be way the best points are on the torso and not the limbs. Also makes a helluva argument in favor of protecting the center line.

elua

04-11-2002, 01:53 PM

Knifefighter I do train empty handed and yes I`m a grappler(wrestling and a little BJJ) and a boxer, BUT I also believe in enviromental traing and also training in street atire. If the UFC was held in a checkout line at Walmart, a phone booth, on a city bus or even a concrete floor I would believe it to be more reality based.

Merryprankster

04-11-2002, 01:56 PM

Braden,

As I responded on another thread--works for me. It's a bit like calling an potato a pommes de terre. Doesn't change the potato any :)

Just so long as we all UNDERSTAND what we're talking about, the terminology is just...terminology. Standard terminology is nice, but obviously not necessary.

Water Dragon

04-11-2002, 01:59 PM

Why is it that so many people here have so much trouble understanding that non-cooperative sparring (as seen in MMA) is a valuable training method. A valuable part of a total training regiman including bag work, two partner drills, and yes, forms and stances.

Me thinks that some people might be scared of the pain and try to belittle the benefits of playing with someone who like to play rough as well. Then they don't have to feel bad about avoiding training methods.

wufupaul

04-11-2002, 02:06 PM

Hey man, where do you live? Maybe someone on this board knows of a good tai chi school near you where they retain alot of the combat usage. I'd love to see if you talk the same way about tai chi if you meet a good practitioner of it, :rolleyes:

Braden

04-11-2002, 02:06 PM

MP - That's about what's going on. People get confused over terminology. You hear 'dian xue' and think 'Oh my god DEATH TOUCH!? These guys are idiots,' while what a competent dian xue practitioner is really thinking about is the best way to hammer you really friggin hard in the mastoid.

I'm being partial and reactionary here. Surely as much fault lies on the people who go around telling people they can immobilize the best wrestler by pressing a finger into their spine - both the kids who fall for the kungfu fantasy movie crap, and the adults cashing in on it.

There's alot, alot of crap kungfu out there. Although knifefighter is sure to chime in telling me I'm wrong, I also believe there's alot, alot of crap muay thai, wrestling, and judo out there as well. Does that invalidate what everyone else is doing?

These threads kind of make me laugh. MA Fanatic is here telling people who have entered the ring that they can't enter the ring. He IS the kid at the sidelines of a game telling all the players the suck. And it's the above attitudes that have, albeit perhaps honestly enough, given him his wierd ideas.

I mean, case in point: his post where he says "yeah those are nice fancy ideas, but when you step in the ring you need techniques!" I've got to assume he was just reacting against the chinese way of naming their movements - ie. against a cultural issue. When you cut through the nonsense, what went on is that taiji guys on this thread actually had a discussion about what techniques they work on for ring fighting, and no one else did. And the taiji guys were attacked for it. When you open your eyes, it's obvious how silly this is.

elua

04-11-2002, 02:08 PM

Water Dragon you might be correct but do you think when you are over 40 with alot of injuries under your belt you will still want to "Play" rough and risk not being able to work? I`m pretty beat up from years of playing rough and even though I still like to fight all out I am alot more careful than I used to be.

Water Dragon

04-11-2002, 02:10 PM

Well, you don't have to do it your whole life. But IMO, you need to do it for at least a while. (the training for the competition, not necesarily the competition itself)

Shooter

04-11-2002, 02:34 PM

Braden, excellent contributions. Thanks for putting this tangent to rest and quelling another ground-swell of ignorance. :)

Liokault

04-11-2002, 03:08 PM

Shooter are you thinking of doing some MMA (or have you done so in the past)? If so how are you planning on handling the ground fighting side of it?
I am not sure about ground fighting my self from a self defense point of view after a personal experiance with fighting more than 1 guy at a time on the ground but obviously if your going to the ground in the "ring" you need to either know ground fighting your self or at least how to counter it.

Anyway what im really interested in is how do you fit ground fighting into Tai Chi.

wufupaul

04-11-2002, 03:38 PM

I'm not Shooter, he has more experience with this stuff than I do, :D but I can tell you how I use tai chi on the ground. It's similar to standing push hands..if they push, I pull, they pull, I push..same as on the feet..take them where they want to go, and then carry it further. If they give me an arm or leg, I'll lock it. If they give me their head, I'll twist it. I usually just reserve my energy and try to get on top to smother, if I'm on bottom..no worries..I'll feel their balance and wait until I can roll them over. I can also fajing from the ground..if my back is on the ground, that is my base, or root, and then the exhalation through the dan tien, I can still strike pretty hard, it just takes training and getting used to the different environment. Basically, it's alot like the stand up game, using sensitivity, staying relaxed, and maximum pressure on the opponent, :)

Liokault

04-11-2002, 03:50 PM

Interesting......We have some ex judo guys training with us who take me to the ground somtimes. After the initial suprise and pain of arm bars ect, i can now more or less stop my self being locked. I am sure that with more time to practice with thease guy i could work some things out but i feel that any one who is going to be taken to the ground by some one GOOD on the ground would need more than this.

MA fanatic

04-11-2002, 07:27 PM

Wow: This thread is certainly gaining some interest. I love a good debate. Just to clarify my position before I procede. I do not believe that Tai Chi is a useless art. As a matter of fact i am against it being taught in a New Age fashion. 99% of Tai Chi schools teach a watered down version. Actually, 99% of the schools most likely teach only 85% of the art (numbers are my own estimates).

Where do I live? I live in IL. I would not give my name and address on line for obvious reasons. I think most of you tough guys would also not release certain personal information for everyone to see if you had families (though I am sure most you guys are stable lol). There are 3 Tai Chi schools in my area. I train in a local bjj school. I also frequently travel to a near by gym for thai boxing.

Can a Tai Chi practitioner beat me? Sure. Why not. Anyone can defeat anyone. I have beaten people, and was beaten myself. That's part of life.

Why I order material from Earl Montaigue? Because he is represented in numerous publications, including BB Magazine, as a world reknown authority on Tai Chi and Dim Mak. Why should I not study his stuff? Actually, his material isn't bad. He seems like a strong guy, with vast knowledge of anatomy/physiology, well versed in forms interpretation and a good instructor.

Repulsive: I never said that I don't believe your friend ever killed anyone. Certainly, he has nothing to be proud of if he did. I'm sure a strong aikido instructor with no punching experience can punch out a street thug. Just like I'm sure a wrestler can kick a street thug in the legs knocking him to the ground. Just like I am sure a strong Tai Chi practitioner can be hard to grapple with.
An art is only as good as the individual.

What I am sick and tired of hearing is people who make unsubstantiated statements about the deadliness of their technique but refusing to prove themselves as an act of good will. "I would destroy anyone that fights in NHB, I just don't want to hurt anyone." While NHB competitors are saying, "let us worry about ourselves, you just get your but in the ring and be ready to accept our not-so-deadly basic punching, kicking and grappling." Every art has deadly techniques. Trust me, if Rickson wanted his apponents dead, they would have been dead. If Mario Sperry wanted his apponents paralized, they would have been paralyzed. He had enough skill to win without doing much harm. So far Tai Chi masters said, "we would either have to kill, which we don't want to do, or we don't bother with this foolishness. Now students believe that what we pass on is the deadliest of all techniques." Believe on what basis I ask? If Rickson teaches me an armbar, I have seen him take out some of the toughest fighters who outweigh him by as much as 60lbs using that armbar. If a KI fighter teaches me kick/punch combinations, I have seen him KO his apponents using those combinations. When I hear pressure point experts talk about their deadliness, all I hear are stories which are not only never witnessed, they have occured a hundred years ago. When probed, none of these masters can recall names, cities where these deadly blows were delivered, who killed who, what were the conciquences, why did people fight in the first place, etc. etc. You have to admit that there is a difference between hearing stories and seeing facts.

I don't have trust issues. I actually believe people. In general, I believe people are good. But there are those who would manipulate the vulnerable, telling them tales to collect money, preach, and/or rationalize why they don't prove the skills they teach.

FINAL NOTE TO MA FANATIC CRITICS
I'm not sure why some disagree with my posts. If I post right now that I found a teacher who mastered the deadliest techniques, but refuses to fight anyone because he is "too deadly," you guys would be the first to laugh at me. What if I told you that this teacher had his skills past down to him through secret societies in ancient Rome? You still wouldn't believe me. You'd laugh at me and ask for proof. Then I would tell you that my teacher is a good man, very deadly, and had seen many of his deadly techniques used in Italy? He asks me to trust him, devote years of study just so he could pass this knowledge onto me. He will teach me to defeat any Kung Fu master, grappling master, and even Olympic Gold Medal wrestler. But, he will forbid me to use his skills because I would have to kill. It's either kill or nothing. You guys would be rolling on the floor laughing. You would be posting that I am some gramar school kid who watched Gladiator with Russel Crow once too many times. Yet, you guys say the same thing. LOL Wake up!!

MA fanatic

wufupaul

04-11-2002, 08:45 PM

MA, first off, your percentages mean nothing, because you made them up. They gave me a chuckle, though, hehe. There are alot more tai chi schools than your percentages that practice the combat aspects, but it's not as out in the open as the mma stuff is. It's up to the teacher to decide who and what to teach, and they are usually alot more selective in their teaching process. "I would destroy anyone that fights in NHB, I just don't want to hurt anyone." Nobody said that..Repulsive mentioned some instances, Lio mentioned some instances, I'm sure they don't care if you believe them or not. I'd hope that you don't care that I think you've never gone against a good tai chi person, either. BTW, I've never learned a single meridian pressure point in training. I know the general muscle/nerve strikes that everyone seems to know, and I do attack those. Your ideas about pressure points are off..reread some of the earlier posts..like Braden's, for instance. Pressure points are the icing on the cake, they aren't anything close to a first attempt in most circumstances. If I was fighting you, I'd try and get in an advantageous position, then, from there..I might knee you in the face, or whack you in the back of the head..who knows, lol. I'm not gonna be thinking about stomach 9 or any other point, I'm going to react and attack according to what's available.

Archangel

04-12-2002, 12:00 AM

wufupal,

This is what Repulsive Monkey said:

"A well trained Tai Chi practitioner wouldn't step into a NHB ring because he would end killing someone. Dian Xue (press point spotting) is when learnt correctly, will not just hurt someone but in 90% of the cases will kill someone."

Lets say what he says is true and I do go against a Tai Chi practioner on the street who knows these techniques. Whats he going to do, kill me because I took a swing at him. Is this really the mindset you guys have, go for the kill in every situation. Complete and Utter Bull Sh1t !!!!!

beautifulvaley

04-12-2002, 12:37 AM

MA fanatic: I find your posts intresting just wondering if you have been in the ring before for a mma fight

Repulsive Monkey

04-12-2002, 03:10 AM

Thanks for putting spin on my words, but no most Tai Chgi practitioners are not going to go for the kill in a street fight. Most will react without thinking of how can kill this miscreant etc. Most people will react naturally by trying to get out of the situation. However what I said was that the development at high levels means that these applications are within the arsenal of a Tai Chi practitioner. They can decide NOT to use them and that is what has been said. If the idea you have garnered from the thread is that all Tai Chi practitioners do is kill people, then this has been misunderstood to an extent. Its within the repetoir but not always the answer to say some guy knocking your beer over is it?!! There is balance, you know! I think this orirgnal thread has slipped a bit, and prehaps I too aswell as others have contributed towards it. Dian Xue is A technique used in internal arts and a very effective one, but only as far as the individual. Anyon can fire a gun but an expert marksman shows the difference between getting close to a target and having complete control to nail the target, same with Dian Xue. But however too much empohasis maybe has been put on this often misunderstood topic, and the whole picture has gone awry.

brassmonkey

04-12-2002, 03:41 AM

"I'm sure tai chi masters with their knowledge of meridians and pressure points are very deadly. The strange thing is, once again, all that was never proven. You actually see anyone get killed, or did your teacher tell you that a particular pressure point strike could kill?"

The founder of Tai Chi Chuan Zhang Senfeng used inmates to practice and perfect his dim mak skills. Nowadays the government as of yet has not approved of my requests for a grant to duplicate this study however if you know anything about Zoology you'll know that within every mammal species the genes of each only differs within 1 %. So the human meridian system is not so different then the modern hampster which for my own studies fortunately are very cheap at the local pet store. In conclusion I can say yes, dim mak is very effective as I have done live real life modern studies.

dezhen2001

04-12-2002, 03:51 AM

:eek:

MA fanatic

04-12-2002, 03:52 AM

I'm not sure what the argument is here. There have been statements made on this forum that should high level tai chi practitioners step into an NHB arena, someone would be getting killed. Therefore, masters of this art chose not to engage in such competitions.

There have also been statements made saying that high level masters have nothing to prove by fighting in mma events.

My posts are not against Tai Chi Chuan. As a matter of fact I also defended the art on many threads when mma guys would say that it is simply an exercise taught in YMCAs. The percentages of schools who teach combat applications of Tai Chi I made up. I stated that I made these percentages up when I wrote my post. However, I can't be too far off. Every tai chi instructor I have met, granted I had only spoken to a handfull, have laughed at me when I mentioned anything about meridians or combat applications of tai chi. Most would just address pushhands.

Have I ever faught a high level tai chi master? No. I'm not even sure where they are. I had thought that I found a high level master, but you guys just told me that I shouldn't believe everything Earl Montaigue says. Where are these masters? I wouldn't even want to fight them. Hell, if they have something extremely effective to teach, I'll just enrolle in their school.

Have I ever faught in an NHB tournament? No. I have faught in Thai boxing matches, full contact karate (no face punching), full contact TKD (Olympic style with protective equipment), grappling (no strikes) and boxed for a while. Did I ever win any major events? NO I have not. I train with guys who are sponsored competitors and who train full time for NHB events. I do spar with them full contact, with NHB gloves. Full power kicks, full power punches to all body parts, take downs, grappling, and controlled knee/elbow strikes to head (because we're still friends) are allowed in sparring. I only train 3 days a week. Taking that into consideration, actually getting into a ring against guys who train 6 days a week, 3 hours a day, I would be on the losing end. I know what I know, and I know what I dont know. I know my weaknesses, and I do realize that an NHB fighter will easily see through them and exploit them. Presently I have a family, and a wife who had just gone through surgery. I work full time and have a practice on the side. Most likely, I will never compete in NHB. Once again, if I truly believed in my skills, I would. IF, like some tai chi masters, I trully believed I knew something other NHB fighters had never seen and will lose to, I would be in that ring. But, I'm also the first to say that I am just not good enough.

My martial arts background: 4 years Wing Chun (there was another instructor teaching Choy Lay Fut...and a man from China teaching Tai Chi - I never really took his classes for any significant amount of time)...at the time I practiced 6 days a week. Then moved onto Hapkido/TKD (my instructor was 5th dan in Hapkido, 6th dan in TKD, 2nd Dan in Judo...his father actually trained a Korean national Judo team, and was also Soul Korean boxing champion). That Korean master was pretty well rounded, drilled us. Only gave 6 black belts in 12 years of teaching here. I stayed with him for 7 years. Got my black belt after 7 years having 4 years of kung fu behind me. My Korean master moved to another state with his family and I joined a local Muay Thai gym. Classes included Muay Thai 6 days a week, shooto and bjj 3 days a week. Stayed there for I believe 3 years. After I finished graduate school, I relocated. Only school around me that was not a McDojo was a bjj school. So I have been with them for 2 years now. In the mean time I also took seminars and classes from anyone who would come to town. I even traveled to Denver to take seminars from some instructors doing seminars over there. That's about it. No major accomplishments.

What other questions have people asked me? I'm too lazy to look through the thread. Once again, my posts are not whether or not Tai Chi is effective. I merely say that it isn't fair for masters to claim deadly skills, critique fighters who actually test their deadly skill, while sitting back and saying that "our skills are too deadly to fight in a ring with." All while the actual fighters are saying, "don't worry about us, just worry about yourself, we'll take chances with the deadly strikes you are so afraid to use."
MA fanatic

MA fanatic

04-12-2002, 03:57 AM

For the record. I have read the history of Tai Chi. I also believe in meridians. As a matter of fact, I even found accupuncture to be very helpfull over the years when conventional medecine had not.

I'm not sure what hampsters have to do with our discussion.

No government will allow for anyone to dublicate studies in which inmates are tortured with pressure point strikes. Are you mentally ok? lol How are you pressuring the government to do this? You actually writing your local governor about this nonesense. Which live studies have you conducted? You going around murdering people or knocking people out? This thread is starting to scare me. How about this Brass. Instead of petitioning the government and or doing what ever you are doing, just sign up for a competition like King of the Cage, Hook And Shoot, Rings, UFC, International Vale Tudo, IFC, etc. ?

Why not just write the governor about dublicating the gladiator death matches and build a coloseum?

MA fanatic

scotty1

04-12-2002, 04:22 AM

My take:

Your art is only as good as the way you train it.
Every art can be effective, IF you train it for effectiveness, with realistic training.

Tai Chi - some train for fun, some for toned thighs, some for combat. All differing training methodologies.

You want Tai Chi to defend you against an attacker in the street, you better train realistically.

But don't think that's going to prepare you for a NHB match, or you'll gas out after 30 seconds. Against an untrained attacker, a quick body shift and lock might work. But against a NHB fighter, with a body thats hard as hell, used to taking hits, and repeatedly smashing you in the face, picking you up and tying you in a double fisherman - it won't.

Completly true, and completely obvious.

I went to a Kung Fu class the other day. It was enjoyable, tough on the body, and the instructor really knew some nasty applications for the form I learnt. BUT when I asked him if they sparred, he said "yeah, I do a kickboxing class on Thursdays"
What, no traditional sparring I ask? "No, people generally just do flowery movements and non-effective techniques when you tell them to spar traditionally" DUDE - YOU'RE THE TEACHER, YOU TEACH THEM HOW TO FIGHT EFFECTIVELY IN A TRADITIONAL MANNER!!

In effect, this guy was saying Come and learn the art of Kung Fu on a Tuesday (you can't fight with it, but its fun!) and then come and learn to fight at my kickboxing class!

I couldn't ****ing believe it man.

Not enough realistic applications, practiced against a resisting partner, in all the Kung Fu classes I've seen. But I still beleive its effective, and I'm waiting to find the guy (or gal) who'll teach it to me as such. Until that time, I'm learning kickboxing off a guy who trains hard, and realistically.

Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent there.... :)

MA fanatic

04-12-2002, 05:23 AM

Its funny you should write this post. There is a kung fu school next door to me. They have kickboxing instructors come in on Tuesday and Thursday nights.
MA fanatic

Merryprankster

04-12-2002, 06:00 AM

Braden--a note, just based on my experience:

There IS a lot of crap muay thai out there. On the other hand, there's a lot of good Muay Thai because of the competitions. It's easy to find good Muay Thai.

There is NOT a lot of crap wrestling--the interscholastic system keeps is strong. There are some bad teams sure, but its easy to find a good coach. Maybe I should say that there is so much wrestling that finding good stuff is easy, even if there is crap.

Judo has the same situation. There's a lot of crap, because of some belt selling scandals, but there's a lot of very good Judo too. Again, it takes minimal effort in most places to find decent judo.

There has yet to be a lot of crap BJJ. I'm hoping that at the very worst, it gets to be no different than MT, Judo, or wrestling, in that there will be some garbage, but a good deal of the good stuff floating around.

As far as knifefighter disagreeing with you, I think what you'll find is that he and I both believe that the regularly competitive nature keeps the overall level of these arts high, and also allows you to find good instruction easily. But that's another issue, even if this thread IS turning into a catch-all :)

Archangel

04-12-2002, 08:23 AM

Repulsive Monkey,

"However what I said was that the development at high levels means that these applications are within the arsenal of a Tai Chi practitioner. They can decide NOT to use them and that is what has been said. If the idea you have garnered from the thread is that all Tai Chi practitioners do is kill people, then this has been misunderstood to an extent. Its within the repetoir but not always the answer to say some guy knocking your beer over is it?!!"

Wait a minute, now your saying that a Tai Chi practioner does not have to go for killing strikes. He has much more in his arsenal and can contol his targets. Well what is to prevent him from entering MMA then. You said it yourself, he doesn't have to use his killing techniques and has other answers, Right?

raving_limerick

04-12-2002, 08:38 AM

Archangel-

Not to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong, but isn't that the whole point of this thread? Tai Chi people are finally getting involved in MMA, so what's the beef? Repulsive Monkey's comments seem to be, IMHO, less of the "I can't compete, I'm too deadly" variety, but more of the "I don't want to compete" variety-- which is something I'm cool with.

As for dim mak, wasn't that originally brought up as an example to show that what people write off as "theories" can actually be used for combat purposes?

OT- Anyone know of a TMC remedy for a hangover?

Archangel

04-12-2002, 10:11 AM

raving limerick,

This is what Repulsive said (I'm cutting and pasting here).

"A well trained Tai Chi practitioner wouldn't step into a NHB ring because he would end killing someone."

Now I don't know how else you can interpret that.

dezhen2001

04-12-2002, 10:24 AM

One sentence from the multitude of posts on this thread is really nothing... it could have been typed without clear thought or just in a emotional response to all the TCC bashing that's been doing on.

imo NOTHING prepares you for the feeling of fear and shock that happens in a REAL situation. Knowing there's no ref and someone can maybe even take ur life at any time really scares the sh|t out of me, and i'm sure most people as well. I trained full contact (muay Thai and Karate), as well as semi and point and none of them feel anything like someone surprising you, grabbing you from behind, putting you down on the ground and pointing a knife in your face.

just my thoughts :)

david

Shooter

04-12-2002, 11:09 AM

Very good discussion so far...

MA fanatic, no worries. Thanks for your input. :)

raving_limerick, hair of the dog. :D

Liokault, I've done a bit of MMA over the years. All of my current training partners have competed as well. No big deal. We train as much ground-fighting as anything else during regular training sessions. What wufupaul wrote pretty much sums up what I understand of the 8 Gates being applied in all situations. Not a stretch by any means...it's all push-hands on one level or another. As with all Tai Chi combatives training in our school, we learn to ground-fight so we don't have to. We keep a clear perspective of the differences between sport and real... :)

Shooter

04-12-2002, 12:37 PM

Back on topic;

The correlation between Tai Chi's strategic principles and those which are presently espoused as the standard among MMAers are quite similar. On the other hand, the approaches to their training are very different. Merryprankster's comment on "pomme de terre - potato"...points to a misconception of the ideas much like acupressure - massage. Not quite as simliar as some would wish. It's not a matter of just relabeling things to suit one's preconceived notions of these ideas. It goes much deeper than that.

These are the things I was hoping to have Tai Chi players discuss in terms of ring strategy and how they go about training Tai Chi's positional concepts. On one level, they're similar to the standard, but on a pshycological level they have a vastly different purpose. Energy management is the main contributor in why these strategic concepts are applied as they are.

Your thoughts?

Liokault, you mentioned the classics in an earlier post. Would you elaborate on how they corresponded with your experiences in the ring? Thanks in advance.

Liokault

04-12-2002, 02:46 PM

If I start on the classics this forum will go off on a whole new tangent that I promise you.......so I wont.......also they are increadably dull......and vastly miss translated and miss interpreted by whole sub groups of tai chi guys (mostly hippies) ofton after the event.

Braden

04-12-2002, 03:48 PM

MP - Either your area has vastly different levels of quality instruction than mine or we have vastly different standards of what 'good' entails.

If it's the former, then your area must also seclude itself from all televised amateur events.

Shooter

04-13-2002, 12:54 PM

Liokault, no problem. Thanks anyway. This thread is all about tangents though. Anything you'd like to share of your experiences would be welcome. :)

Liokault

04-13-2002, 02:11 PM

Yes it is all about tangents.

I must say I am kind if disapointed that so few guys here have used Tai Chi in any practical way.
I see this as part of the reason that Tai Chi has become somthing less than a martial art in the eyes of the public.
If you do not use it then you will indeed lose it.....And worse still you will lose it to people who will corrupt it and change it for their own ends then tell every one that it was always like this and that they them selfs are the only true holders of the way (and that if you float round tuning into your aure for 10 years you will be able to fight)

If any one here is in any wants any anicdotes about useing Tai Chi in practical ways I have LOADS of them......both in the ring and on the street.

Ok on the subject of secret killer nerve points. Why if there are points that can be attacked (with a certain amount of training) to imobilise, kill of stun an oponent have animals evolved to use them? I mean why did tigers bother to grow into four hundred pound killing machines that rip out its preys wind pipe when they could have had a much easyer time evolving into much smaller but vastly deadlier beasts that know just where to tap a whilderbeast to knock it over!
If somthing can be done it has already been used in nature. Lots of animals even eat the relivant plant to treat their illnesses........So why did no animal take the easy route to food?
Or do polar bears know all the secret (bloody good secret) Dim Mak points on a seal?

Its not that I do not belive in Dim Mak but as most guys have trouble puting one on a guys chin then what are the chances that a guy can press a point 1/3 of the way down the fore arm followed by just above the forth rib!!

P.S Can some one tell me where the spell cheack is? Or is there none?

Shooter

04-13-2002, 02:52 PM

Liokault, the whole dim-mak thing has been done to death and put to rest...at least on this thread.

If any one here is in any wants any anicdotes about useing Tai Chi in practical ways I have LOADS of them......both in the ring and on the street.

I'd be interested in reading about some of your experiences if you're willing to share them. :)

Liokault

04-13-2002, 03:14 PM

Ok sorry about the Dim Mak thing but i couldnt help my self.

Ok real life thing that happend to me and i think has changed my out look at training.

Walking home from the pub (very drunk im sorry to say but this was about 10 years ago when I was a lad) a large group of guys start shouting at me. There are probably about 7-8 of them. I carry on walking but im drunk and ****ed off so as they shout at me I reply ....like you do ...anyway the "leader" of the group takes offense at this and comes up to me.
He throws a punch at my head (next bit is a blurr but I think the punch missed) then comes in for looks like a hip throw type thing (may be he had done some judo?). Ok so now hes trying to wrestle me......I imidiatly stop him throwing my by droping my weight and sliding my arm round his neck.....at this point we go to the ground (with me on my side on top of him and him more or less face down).....ok we are on the ground I have my arm around his neck and obviously he presents no problem to me .........EXEPT he has like 7 friends with him .......by now they are really laying the kicks in.......ok so i want to take out the guy on the ground......thats easy I stick my fingers straight into his eyes....he screams a lot but now I got no where to go......his friends are still kicking me and theres not much i can do about it apart from try to keep all my bits in.

Ok you see my basic problem with ground fighting? Looking back on it now with 10 years more training behine me (even if I was stupid enough to put my self in a similar position) I think I could easly deal with the guy with out going to the ground.

The idea that in BJJ you WANT to go to the ground is worrying to me.

Oh yes the story ends with a total stranger haveing seen the fight drive her car well out of her way in a pedestrion only area
and driving into the mess of guys kicking me till they broke up .......then making sure i got away with no more agro (VERY nice woman). She latter told me she came to help me as the same guys had beaten up her son very badly only a few weeks before in the same place.

MA fanatic

04-14-2002, 05:08 AM

It is true, bjj is ground focused. Therefore, it is a one dementional art focusing on the clinch, takedown and ground grappling. But, here is what separates BJJ stylists from most other traditional schools (I say 'other' because bjj is a very traditional art). BJJ guys know what they don't know, and always encourage one another to seek supplemental training. Even top bjj competitors such as the Gracies, cross train in Muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, and anything anyone could teach them they could incorporate. Tai Chi practitioners I have met, were even more one demensional, but they refused to believe that they don't have the complete picture. In some traditional arts seeking supplemental training is looked down upon. In bjj is is actually encouraged. Oh, I should mention that there are 3 components to bjj: 1) Ground/Sport grappling utilizing a 'gi' and 'no gi.' (with and without uniform). 2) Self Defense (punch defenses, kick defenses, joint locks, basid strikes, and hold escapes you may see in some Hapkido, and Japanese Traditional Jiujitsu schools). 3) Vale Tudo training (training for No Rules competitions where only eye gouging and biting is prohibited...including strikes, and ground fighting...all full contact). Show me another style which does that. There are very few. The sport aspect of bjj is ground focused, but the self defense classes and Vale Tudo classes do a great deal of training on the feet.
MA fanatic

Braden

04-14-2002, 11:10 AM

"Why if there are points that can be attacked (with a certain amount of training) to imobilise, kill of [sic] stun an oponent have animals [not] evolved to use them?"

Maybe you should watch an animal fight sometime. If you think they are simply strong and fast and launch random attacks at one another, you're in for a bit of a surprise.

Shooter

04-14-2002, 03:02 PM

Liokault, thanks.

MA fanatic wrote

Oh, I should mention that there are 3 components to bjj: 1) Ground/Sport grappling utilizing a 'gi' and 'no gi.' (with and without uniform). 2) Self Defense (punch defenses, kick defenses, joint locks, basid strikes, and hold escapes you may see in some Hapkido, and Japanese Traditional Jiujitsu schools). 3) Vale Tudo training (training for No Rules competitions where only eye gouging and biting is prohibited...including strikes, and ground fighting...all full contact).

The above is identical to the type of MMA training we do at my (Tai Chi) school. The first component is what we call push-hands. The second describes our basic chin-na training. The third, our san-shou. There are more and more Tai Chi players working ground-fighting into their practice every day. Beyond these (in my own school) are form, Chi Kung, weapons, street clothes and real enviro-training, scenario training, etc. Thanks for playing.... :cool:

popsider

06-29-2002, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by MA fanatic
don't have the complete picture. In some traditional arts seeking supplemental training is looked down upon. In bjj is is actually encouraged. MA fanatic

It depends on your reasons for learning the art. I think that devoting a lot of time to other arts will hinder your progress in your chosen one. Some people are motivated by getting good at wing chun, tai chi, karate more than turning themselves into killing machines. Others are motivated by wanting to get good at some kind of sport fighting, or forms competition or whatever.

However purely in terms of learning to fight I think it is a good idea to cross train some ground fighting or stand up. It can't do any harm, but when time is limited I can understand people not doing that. But at the same time I think that the stand up should come first - I think you are vulnerable to multiple attackers on the ground and you can't run away as quickly if you have to. I'm no street fighter, but most of the incidents I have been involved in have involved groups of people. Take one example, away at Millwall in the early 90s 3 of us got jumped by half a dozen of them, punches were exchanged, my friends scarpered, I engaged 2 of them for maybe only 10 seconds and then ran, if I had tried to take one of them down (not that I had the skills to) I'd have had 5 others kicking my head in. So I tend to agree IF you only do one thing then stand up is preferable. But I do now train some groundwork.

SevenStar

06-29-2002, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Water Dragon

You do realize the BJJ guys I know don't think like this don't you? We ARE talking Gong Fu now, IMO.

Check this out

http://www.royharris.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31

when you read it, you'll think about gung fu. I thing BJJ training is very gung fu like in nature.

Merryprankster

06-29-2002, 12:12 PM

Braden,

I think it's the former, and I've seen some amateur events in person. Many of the fighters are garbage.

I guess I've just been lucky.

My High School trained trained many state tournament qualifiers in wrestling.

Many of my teammates in college were All-American D III and All New England (yeah, I know it's D III...that's still a **** sight harder and better than most of us will ever train.)

I train with Rhadi Ferguson on a fairly regular basis, so I know what good judo looks like.

I train with Lloyd Irvin who has more than a few victories at the Mundials in the BJJ blackbelt, masters, and open divisions, and has also been a Sambo champion in the US.

I've managed to knock up a few wins myself, thanks to the above trainers....

I've got friends that sport good records in MT and have trained other fighters who have done well.

So yeah, I guess I have a pretty high standard for what good means and I've been either lucky or vigilant when seeking it out.

chingei

06-29-2002, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Many of my teammates in college were All-American D III and All New England (yeah, I know it's D III...that's still a **** sight harder and better than most of us will ever train.)

the top of Div. 3 is clearly a level of competitiveness far advanced from what most people will hope to accomplish.

Merryprankster

06-29-2002, 12:31 PM

It's certainly ****her than I ever made it :)

Braden

06-30-2002, 02:34 AM

MP - Whew. Old thread. Reading back, I'm not sure where we were disagreeing. You admitted in your post there was alot of crap judo and muay thai out there. You claimed there was no crap wrestling, but then admitted that there was crap coaches and clubs, just that you could also find better (so, really, you're admitting there's crap wrestling). Which is all I had said in the first place - so I have no idea why we wrote back and forth disagreeing with one another. ;p

Moreover, if your point is simply that emphasizing contact with students of other teachers for comparison of martial skill tends to strongly bias the population towards competency, I'll whole-heartedly agree. Just as, I'm sure, you would whole-heartedly agree with what my original point was - that the presence of poor-quality instruction does not reduce the validity of a high-quality instructor.

As an aside though, I apologize for what was an overly facetious comment. I'd hope that I didn't mean it like that, but I honestly don't much recall this thread.

Merryprankster

06-30-2002, 07:01 AM

I've learned enough about you to know that you didn't mean anything negative.

And I agree. You can find crap, but the sheer amount of exposure dictates that good is right around the corner.

This is why I disagree with the philosophy of only teaching to a 'select few.' By allowing things to remain secrets, you create an environment in which fraud can flourish. This is the reasoning behind open meeting laws and transparent business and election practices :)

Braden

06-30-2002, 07:33 AM

"This is why I disagree with the philosophy of only teaching to a 'select few.'"

Well, I can't say I feel right disagreeing with what someone chooses to do with their knowledge. If Joe Blow only wants to teach martial arts to his son, so be it. If he decides to teach a large group as well, but lie to them, I'd have to agree this is pretty repulsive. And of course, the less people explore the 'bigger world', the more likely it is they're going to train to defeat themselves, rather than an attacker (which I think is a trend that martial artists of all sorts constantly struggle with, and something we've seen happen in every art).

When I commented in another thread that bagua has mostly been taught one-on-one, I didn't mean to be supporting the kind of elitism you describe; simply, that that is the best way for someone to learn it, so that is the most common way it's been taught. It doesn't do much for speedy propagation of the art though.

Merryprankster

06-30-2002, 07:55 AM

Let me rephrase that:

I disagree with the philosophy of not teaching it to a greater number of people, and then *****ing about the number of frauds :)

Braden

06-30-2002, 08:24 AM

Well, I think fraud is still wrong in spite of something not being widespread; but it's not surprising. If you mean, *****ing about frauds when you're unwilling to share enough information so people can tell for themselves, then I agree.

Merryprankster

06-30-2002, 08:32 AM

I guess you can ***** about it, just no be surprised or truly disgruntled :)

chingei

06-30-2002, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Liokault

Walking home from the pub (very drunk im sorry to say but this was about 10 years ago when I was a lad) a large group of guys start shouting at me.
ok we are on the ground I have my arm around his neck and obviously he presents no problem to me .........EXEPT he has like 7 friends with him .......by now they are really laying the kicks in.......his friends are still kicking me and theres not much i can do about it apart from try to keep all my bits in.

Ok you see my basic problem with ground fighting?

Oh yes the story ends with a total stranger haveing seen the fight drive her car well out of her way in a pedestrion only area
and driving into the mess of guys She latter told me she came to help me as the same guys had beaten up her son very badly only a few weeks before in the same place.

and if you stayed on your feet, the 7-8 guys would have stood politely around in a circle admiring your technique? holding up score cards maybe? Perhaps you would have knocked them all out at once with a big three stooges in-line slap? if the first bloke (whateverthehellthatmeans) knew some judo as you say, it would have been all your decision to stay on your feet? the kind woman's son was a ground fighter? knowhatimean?

please don't say you could have gotten away if you were on your feet. you were drunk. there were many. in any case, if getting away is the goal, "fighting" style is less an issue than running style.

popsider

06-30-2002, 01:40 PM

Chingei, I think you are wrong, stay on your feet if possible unless you know it's a one on one and you are confident in your ground skills.

But if you do go to ground it is easier for multiple attackers to really hurt you - your head is closer to their feet - get the picture ?

Merryprankster

06-30-2002, 01:57 PM

And if you rely on your training to get up and your training doesn't include any REAL groundfighting, enjoy the ass-stomping you're about to receive.

Get the picture?

His point is that on your feet is only better off in an 8 on 1 because you can RUN. It doesn't really help your odds of winning all that much.

chingei

06-30-2002, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by popsider
Chingei, I think you are wrong, stay on your feet if possible unless you know it's a one on one and you are confident in your ground skills.

But if you do go to ground it is easier for multiple attackers to really hurt you - your head is closer to their feet - get the picture ?

this is a tired old song. 7-8 folks get on you, you got problems. hands, feet, elbows, pinky-finger, whatever---you got problems.

a bunch of folks get on you, how long are you gonna stay off the ground regardless of your 'wishes'? not long. if you are a fish down there, you'll be even more vulnerable.

you wanna run. good idea. you don't or you can't you deal with what you've got. If the crowd is curious, fight anyway you know. If the crowd wants to participate, you are screwed no matter what flying fists of fury you think you are.

hell, you've got a lot more of a choice to stay on your feet in a one-on-one situation than a group. Lennox Lewis gets attacked by 7-8 people, he's going down whether he wants to or not. one person attacks Lewis, he won't even spill his drink.

Every situation is different, of course, but this mantra has been chanted one time too many. gotta be smart and alert and adapt to the situation as it develops. Truisms are for bumper-stickers.

chingei

06-30-2002, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
And if you rely on your training to get up and your training doesn't include any REAL groundfighting, enjoy the ass-stomping you're about to receive.

Get the picture?

His point is that on your feet is only better off in an 8 on 1 because you can RUN. It doesn't really help your odds of winning all that much.

exact-amundo

Merryprankster

06-30-2002, 02:20 PM

When are you coming to DC chingei?

I want to meet the master of one-liners...

chingei

06-30-2002, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
When are you coming to DC chingei?

I want to meet the master of one-liners...

sounds like the nickname of a financially-limited drug lord

DC? perhaps next year. Still in a holding pattern on that one...

Le nOObi

06-30-2002, 02:51 PM

I doubt any martial arts school can fully prepare you for fighting 7-8 people while drunk!

Merryprankster

06-30-2002, 02:55 PM

Drunken Boxing :D

old jong

06-30-2002, 03:51 PM

My Irish father in law did that all the times in his younger days when he was sailing in the merchant marine! ;)But he knew no martial art...He was just Irish! :D

chingei

06-30-2002, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by old jong
My Irish father in law knew no martial art...He was just Irish! :D

that IS a martial art!

popsider

06-30-2002, 05:25 PM

Chingei/ Prankster - If you flip back a page or so you'll see that if your aim is to be a good fighter then I advocate training in groundwork, so I plead not guilty to that one.

I'm not sure what your point is here, maybe we are arguing at cross purposes or maybe we really do disagree, so let me spell out what I am saying a bit more clearly.

8 onto 1 are impossible odds. But what about 2 onto 1, or 3 onto 2, or 4 onto 4 etcetera. Multiple attackers does not always mean that you are on your own and faced with a gang. And quite often you can't be sure if one person has a friend or two standing at the bar or round the corner ready to back up their mate. These are all pretty common scenarios, and in those situations you are taking a bigger risk by taking someone down onto the ground by choice. So yes, not knowing groundwork is a gap in your armoury, but it is not half as much a gap as being deficient in stand up fighting.

Merryprankster

06-30-2002, 05:42 PM

I'd say that depends on the situation, like any other.

Besides which, every grappling system, including BJJ (poorly....poorly), teaches you how to put somebody on their ass in a dominant position. If I can drop one guy and put him in between me and other attackers, I just might do that.

The point really is that running is the best option in multiple attacker scenarios. If you're forced to fight, fight hard, fight fast, use every available weapon, and make a hole to leave as quickly as you can--weather it's a hard right to the jaw or a simple double leg dump.

For the record, if you are one on one but the buddy is around the corner, that's what knee on belly is for.

Again, it just goes to show, that's what situational awareness is for, vice a particular fighting skill.

I agree that not knowing ANY standing skills is a rotten situation to be in. Not having ground skills is at least as bad because if you don't know how to get up right or sweep, you might be forced to stay there, AND you can't run.