Question about Buddhism

[IronFist]

I know this isn't really the place, but I know there are some people who know a lot about Buddhism here so I thought I'd ask.

Alright. The general concept I have about Buddhism is that each being is part of a circle of death and rebirth dictated by their karma, called Samsara, that goes on endlessly until one attains enlightenment. Once this level is reached, the being escapes from Samsara and becomes one with God (or something).

Now, one of the things I like about Buddhism over Christianity is the fact that Buddhism can explain people being born into different environments. For example, Christianity says that you get one life on Earth, from which your eternal afterlife either in Heaven or Hell is determined. Now, for people brought up in nice places where its easier to do good will have a better chance at getting into Heaven than people who are brought up in, say, a ghetto.

Alright, so in the above case, Buddhism says that someone who was born into a good life was given that good life because of their karma. Someone who is born into a hard a difficult life was born into that life because of their karma as well. Now, to me this is a bit easier to swallow than the Christian concept of God just randomly assigning lives to people. In that case, some people really get screwed over (ie. people who are born into abusive families, etc...). But according to Buddhism, anyone born into that life brought it upon themselves through their karma, at least according to my undrestanding of Buddhism.

Now here's my question. You keep being reborn until you reach enlightenment. So, fast forward millions of years (I guess?) to a point where nearly everyone has reached enlightenment. Consider, for example, that there is only one being left in the entire realm of existance that has not yet reached enlightenment. Say he is reborn as a human. If every other soul is enlightened, there will be no one else reborn on Earth with him. What will he eat? There will be souls reborn as animals for him to eat. What will he do all day? There will be no one to socialize with. From whom will he learn? Maybe at the time of his birth there will be other people left, but when they all die... he will be alone.

Although, maybe if he's entirely alone he can spend all his time trying to reach enlightenment? :) No, I'm serious. What happens to this guy?

IronFist

[jon]

Considering the number of people on this earth and the state its in i would really consider that the least of your worrys.
However i dont think that will ever happen becouse im sure new souls could also be born under Buddhist thinking.

I wanna know what happens if you reach enlightenment only to find out that infact its nothing but the painfull realisation that you now understand exactly why everything has to be the way it is.

Or would being enlightened only make you incredibly lonely as you would now see things no else could or understand things in greater detail than you thought was possible.

My understanding of enlightenment is that it would simply allow you to properly see both sides of the coin and understand that the grass was NOT greener on the otherside of the fence.

Strangely not something im really hoping to happen in a hurry...

[IronFist]

I thought enlightenment was escaping the circle of rebirth.

As long as I keep being reborn into cool lives, I don't see how it could be THAT bad (knock on wood) :)

IronFist

[IronFist]

Originally posted by jon
However i dont think that will ever happen becouse im sure new souls could also be born under Buddhist thinking.

New souls can be born? How does this happen?

IronFist

[jon]

"New souls can be born? How does this happen? "
* I dunno
However i would assume that the souls here and now got here somehow?
As for escaping death and rebirth, what difference does it make to you within this lifetime?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by jon
"As for escaping death and rebirth, what difference does it make to you within this lifetime?

Whoa, down boy. I was just saying that is what I heard enlightenment is. If that is the ultimate goal of existance then I guess it makes a big difference to me in every lifetime. I only mentioned it, however, as it was relevant to me question.

IronFist

[jon]

IronFist
haha sorry dude i actualy wasnt trying to sound bitter or anything. Was more just a prompt for thought, your very right that is often seen as an aim of enlightenment. The question i asked you is one i try to ask myself sometimes. Why do i care about what may or may not happen in a life i will never remember?
As i say it was a prompt for thought and further debate im sorry if it sounded like i was trying to get on your case or something.
All the best
Jon

[IronFist]

It's cool :) Good discussion.

IronFist

[prana]

Originally posted by IronFist
I know this isn't really the place, but I know there are some people who know a lot about Buddhism here so I thought I'd ask.

Alright. The general concept I have about Buddhism is that each being is part of a circle of death and rebirth dictated by their karma, called Samsara, that goes on endlessly until one attains enlightenment. Once this level is reached, the being escapes from Samsara and becomes one with God (or something).

Now, one of the things I like about Buddhism over Christianity is the fact that Buddhism can explain people being born into different environments. For example, Christianity says that you get one life on Earth, from which your eternal afterlife either in Heaven or Hell is determined. Now, for people brought up in nice places where its easier to do good will have a better chance at getting into Heaven than people who are brought up in, say, a ghetto.

Alright, so in the above case, Buddhism says that someone who was born into a good life was given that good life because of their karma. Someone who is born into a hard a difficult life was born into that life because of their karma as well. Now, to me this is a bit easier to swallow than the Christian concept of God just randomly assigning lives to people. In that case, some people really get screwed over (ie. people who are born into abusive families, etc...). But according to Buddhism, anyone born into that life brought it upon themselves through their karma, at least according to my undrestanding of Buddhism.




Now here's my question. You keep being reborn until you reach enlightenment. So, fast forward millions of years (I guess?) to a point where nearly everyone has reached enlightenment. Consider, for example, that there is only one being left in the entire realm of existance that has not yet reached enlightenment. Say he is reborn as a human. If every other soul is enlightened, there will be no one else reborn on Earth with him. What will he eat? There will be souls reborn as animals for him to eat. What will he do all day? There will be no one to socialize with. From whom will he learn? Maybe at the time of his birth there will be other people left, but when they all die... he will be alone.

Although, maybe if he's entirely alone he can spend all his time trying to reach enlightenment? :) No, I'm serious. What happens to this guy?

IronFist

Not everyone will reach enlightenment. We are like candles that burn wax, although if we do abide to the precepts, the wax or Mara will burn away. But for most of us, as we live our loves, we continually pick up more wax of (mara) so our candle may not reduce but actually increase.

Many lifes dont reduce kamma, right effort and right actions do. It doesnt need to be Buddhism, but it needs to be Dharma, dunno if that made sense...

HTH

[IronFist]

Not everyone will reach enlightenment. We are like candles that burn wax, although if we do abide to the precepts, the wax or Mara will burn away.

So if my candle burns out I cease to exist? That's gotta suck. So it's like, no good or bad existance then because you don't exist, right?

But for most of us, as we live our loves, we continually pick up more wax of (mara) so our candle may not reduce but actually increase.

I assume by "loves" you meant "lives," right? Is there anything specific we can do to get the most wax per life?

Many lifes dont reduce kamma, right effort and right actions do. It doesnt need to be Buddhism, but it needs to be Dharma, dunno if that made sense...

Right, but I assume that the best place (only place?) to reduce bad karma is during a life.

You say "reduce kamma"... so is that different from reducing "bad" karma? If I gain a bunch of good karma, does that mean I'm stuck within Samsara? Can you reach enlightenment and still have karma left (good or bad? Or both?)

IronFist

[prana]

So if my candle burns out I cease to exist? That's gotta suck. So it's like, no good or bad existance then because you don't exist, right?

If the candle burns out then one blends with the originial nature of the mind. Yes it does mean you cese to exists as a human or a being in samsara, but it also means you are no longer cycling in samsara and resting in the purest state of mind.



I assume by "loves" you meant "lives," right? Is there anything specific we can do to get the most wax per life?


Yeah lives, sorry, my english is attrocious. Yes, when situations arise, such is because of kamma (as you already stated) but we have a choice react, or act to it. Hence our choice not to participate in "rolling down the hill" with it but to "better" it shall reduce this wax of life.



Right, but I assume that the best place (only place?) to reduce bad karma is during a life.

You say "reduce kamma"... so is that different from reducing "bad" karma? If I gain a bunch of good karma, does that mean I'm stuck within Samsara? Can you reach enlightenment and still have karma left (good or bad? Or both?)



We call GOod Kamma and Bad Kamma as a distinction between what is beneficial to do and what is not. But as the Tathagata says, you cannot help another from drowning in samsara when you yourself are drowning in it. So, it be best to eradicate one's own kamma for the sake of helping others.

That is the greatest sacrifice one can offer to ones own Kamma.

The best time to practise meditation is at the moment of passing into death. During which, one undergoes the greatest suffering of pain, lost, and what not. It is at this crucial moment that ones life habits suddenly fruition.

But this means the greatest preperation is to practise now, as we never know how many breathes more we shall have before the time comes and this life is over...

[David Jamieson]

*cough* *cough*...

jeez, metaphysics...

Truth is none of us have a single molecular sized inkling of what it's all about. best to leave it at that and continue simply being.

do good if you want, do bad if you want. you have to live with the consequences of your actions (if any) and it doesn't matter what anyone says.

bottom line- your life is yours, do with it as you see fit, if someone doesn't like it they'll tell ya, or let you know in other ways, defend yourself if you feel the need.

learn from your mistakes and never rest on your laurels.

peace

[TjD]

Originally posted by jon

I wanna know what happens if you reach enlightenment only to find out that infact its nothing but the painfull realisation that you now understand exactly why everything has to be the way it is.

Or would being enlightened only make you incredibly lonely as you would now see things no else could or understand things in greater detail than you thought was possible.

My understanding of enlightenment is that it would simply allow you to properly see both sides of the coin and understand that the grass was NOT greener on the otherside of the fence.


the buddha taught the way to the elimination of suffering;

so enlightenment is when you reach a stage where you do not suffer anymore

hence, being lonely or having a painful realization are impossible to someone enlightened :)


peace
travis

[David Jamieson]

I disagree.

Enlightenment does not exclude emotion. IE: you can be enlightened and feel emotion towards everything and everyone.

If not, how could you act mercifully?

If all there was to enlightenment was to detach from ones emotions then wouldn't that be a bit too easy?

We could all be like a bunch of Spocks walking around and commenting "fascinating" about everything. :D

Enlightenment in and of itself is by definition different for each and everyone of us because it pertains directly to the individual reality.

peace

[Sharky]

Can someone tell me why buddhists often pray to idols or to a big golden buddha, when, from what i can see, that's not what it's about? Why waste your time doing this, when you could be like... doing other things, like meditating or trying to reach enlightenment, or whatever these wacky buddhists do :)

[Braden]

"Samsara, that goes on endlessly until one attains enlightenment."

Although it goes on forever, it collapses and reborn. I'm not sure what happens to 'souls' in this interim.

"For example, Christianity says that you get one life on Earth."

That's not part of Christian doctrine. It's an accidental belief of most Christian groups, but not all.

"Now, for people brought up in nice places where its easier to do good will have a better chance at getting into Heaven..."

There are several places in the New Testament talking about how it's easier for the poor, children, those who suffer, etc to get into heaven.

"Buddhism says that someone who was born into a good life was given that good life because of their karma. Someone who is born into a hard a difficult life was born into that life because of their karma as well."

Not in a reward and punishment sense. If you're put in a good life and I'm put in a bad life, it's not because you're somehow better than I am; more it's like the things you have to learn are better learnt in that kind of life, and the same for me.

"anyone born into that life brought it upon themselves through their karma"

Not in the sense you seem to be talking about. See above.

"fast forward millions of years (I guess?) to a point where nearly everyone has reached enlightenment."

I don't think everyone will reach enlightenment. There's complex concepts of ages and cyclic time (collapse and rebirth of reality, rather than simple eternal reality) and I'm pretty sure that figures into your 'problem' somehow. Buddhist's I've spoken to speak as if things get 'better' each time, so it's as if the average enlightenment level is higher each time, which suggests to me things get 'reset' somehow. It's a point I'm unclear on though.

Although, all that said... there's a quite wide range of beliefs and practices under the title 'Buddhism' so I suppose that anyone generalizing is incorrect from some angle.

[prana]

Truth is none of us have a single molecular sized inkling of what it's all about. best to leave it at that and continue simply being.

do good if you want, do bad if you want. you have to live with the consequences of your actions (if any) and it doesn't matter what anyone says.


HA ! You said it, o wise one ;)


Can someone tell me why buddhists often pray to idols or to a big golden buddha, when, from what i can see, that's not what it's about? Why waste your time doing this, when you could be like... doing other things, like meditating or trying to reach enlightenment, or whatever these wacky buddhists do

The practise of "guru yoga" is the giving up of oneself to the teachings of the Buddha. The statue of the Buddha, is not to commemorate a person, as such. For Kung Lek's sake, I wont venture too far into the deeper meanings of it, but the Buddha statue, is the symbolism of perfection of body speech and mind. The Buddhist offers prayers, dedication and most of all, the vow that he/she will work himself to attain that perfection in body speech and mind. Wether it be a fat Buddha or a skinny Buddha or good 'ol JC, makes no difference. If JC is the sign of perfection for a person, then let JC be the person one strives to become.

It is written there are 84,000 methods taught (though I am not sure how they came to this number but there are lots of methods) this is just one of them....

[WCJoe]

I say if you wanna get info, the easiest way to get it is from the source. Pick up an annotated copy of the Damma Padda and if you're not feeling that motivated then go to www.beliefnet.org

[mantis108]

Here's a few thoughts. Please keep in mind that all "terms" are relative in this post:

1) Buddhism was born of Hinduism. Lot of the teachings was "advanced" or insights if you will of the Hindu teaching. Buddhism tackles the "weakness" of Hinduism so that it offers a way out for the East Indian people who were mostly "offered" one spiritual practice at the time. Buddhism was meant to be a break through in Hinduism. In a certain way, Hindus acknowledged that in including Buddha as the 9th descend of the 10 descends of the God Vishnu.

2) Western spiritual practices, ie Jeudaism, Christianity in general believes in external power source that makes the world goes round (i.e God). That might have to do with the fact that they were industral military inclined since the dawn of time. ;) They believe no one can change their lives except when God wills it so (sounds familiar? Try Karma). Eastern thoughts however believes that through ascetic practices the "quality" of men can be altered (sounds familiar? Try Jesus). This might have to do with arguculture base economy that the Asian countries were built upon. East and west ultimately share similar thoughts because we as human are wired the same way in the biggest piece of muscle between the ears (i.e. the brain). :D

3) Those big issues (karma, scarifice, forms "organic or not", enlightment, etc) are already addressed with the Virja Pranja Paramita Sutra otherwise known as the Diamond Sutra. Buddha (if it is really his very own words) used a lot of the imageries from Hindu tale of Churning of the Milk Ocean. To expound upon his own teaching. The title of the Sutra in itself can be a full lesson already.

4) Hindu's thesis is that reality exists and is very real; and it gives you the necessary tools to proof it for yourself. Buddhism's thesis is that reality is an illusion. In fact nothing exsits. It also gives you the tool to prove it just like Buddha himself did centuries age. Either way you are required to do the "hardwork/kung fu" ;) . There simply is not free ticket to Nirvana like the Christian faith claims that all you have to do is you say you believe in God (your magic pill that cures all in one treament). Intellectually understanding concepts without actually practicing either eastern spiritual practices is not going to bring enlightenment because it is the journey not the destination that counts. Hypothesis is going to lead you in circles (samsara), my friends.

Namasté

Mantis108

[Sharky]

So, how is enlightenment reached?

(ahem)

[prana]

It also gives you the tool to prove it just like Buddha himself did centuries age. Either way you are required to do the "hardwork/kung fu" ;) . There simply is not free ticket to Nirvana like the Christian faith claims that all you have to do is you say you believe in God (your magic pill that cures all in one treament). Intellectually understanding concepts without actually practicing either eastern spiritual practices is not going to bring enlightenment because it is the journey not the destination that counts. Hypothesis is going to lead you in circles (samsara), my friends.

Namasté


Namaste Mantis108

excellent, may I ask, what are your thoughts (if any) on pureland practitioners, based on the "VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA". Would like to hear your opinion, tia ;)

many respects
Karma

[prana]

Originally posted by Sharky
So, how is enlightenment reached?

(ahem)

probably the most accepted sutta is the Anapanasati Sutta (look it up, its everywhere on the net), practised by almost all lineages of Vajrayana, Mahayana and Theravada in one part or as a whole.

The only practitioners I can think of who dont use this sutta are the zen (7th consciousness) and the pureland practitioners(Amitabha).

Correct me if I am wrong.... ;) Thanks

[IronFist]

Just for fun, how does Buddhism compare with Pagan thought in the sense of 7 (I think it was 7) levels of existence (um, "vibrational frequencies" if you prefer), astral travel (projection), etc...

IronFist

[Ryu]

First, that was a beautiful post by Braden.


Second,
"Can someone tell me why buddhists often pray to idols or to a big golden buddha, when, from what i can see, that's not what it's about? Why waste your time doing this, when you could be like... doing other things, like meditating or trying to reach enlightenment, or whatever these wacky buddhists do "

Never met anyone Buddhist that prayed to a statue. The symbols of Buddhism are merely "reminders" so to speak. They represent something. That's the power of any religious symbol whether it be a cross, star of David, etc.
You see large golden statues of Buddha in Theravada and some Mahayana temples. People don't "pray" to the statue. That would be silly. It is there for the sake of reverence and honor to the Buddha himself. (at least that's what it was to every Buddhist temple I've ever been to)
Some Buddhist sects like Nicheren Buddhists for example chant in front of a written scroll called a Gohonzon. A lot of people say they are praying to the scroll itself, but that's not the case either. The gohonzon to them is representive of the "buddha nature" within them and the prayer is actually towards their own buddha nature and the buddhist law of the universe.
It's easy to misunderstand symbols of religions. "Idol" worship is silly. What can a finite object give you?

Some Buddhist beliefs say that you can achieve enlightenment in this life. For now, this life is our most important. This is where we are now. This is the life we must deal with.
:)

Ryu

[crumble]

I want to say that just like people getting wrapped up in the "stories" of CMA, people get wrapped up in the "stories" of buddhism. And just like how the skills in CMA come from the foundation training, so does any advancement come understanding the basics of buddhism. [And unless you have had lots of experience, you are going to want the "stories" more than the foundation training!!] And just like how "internal" arts require a certain commitment and participation of the student, there is also a need for a lot of investigation to get at the heart of buddhism. And finally, just to complete things, no matter how advance you get in either pursuit, you are still in THIS world.

There is so much confusion caused by religious buddhism. If you don't try to find the underlying truth, it's all just lot of stories that get told.

To me, the bottom line is that buddhism speaks to actual experience in this world. Rebirth is finding out that you act differently at different moments. Karma is realizing your inability to escape cause and effect. And "illusion" is realizing that you can come to many different hypothesis about the same event, and you have no way of knowing what it true. And enlightenment is realizing that there is something beyond cause and effect. But honestly, I'm not sure about that last one.

It's a totally different approach to living life, which emphasizes how little you know about the experience you have. It does not deny worldly experiences (which is why it is different that stoicism/nihlism), but it very maturely points out that you can't come to any final judgement. And it also emphasizes that wisdom occurs, but we have no idea how or why.

For what it's worth.

-crumble

p.s. I just wanted to add that Buddhism's thesis is NOT that reality is an illusion. It's that it is not true, not false, not "true and false", and not "neither true nor false". (Ha, you run into this kind of language the more you study buddhism!) The point is that it is that you can't pin it down.

[mantis108]

Namasté Prana,

"excellent, may I ask, what are your thoughts (if any) on pureland practitioners, based on the "VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA". Would like to hear your opinion, tia"

Thank you and I am glad you enjoyed my post. :)

To be honest, I haven't work on the VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA yet. But I am working on it. Hope you don't mind that I will get back to you on it. :) I could give you my general thoughts on Sutras. Personally, I like short and compact Sutras such and Heart Sutra and the Vajra Pranja Paramita Sutra. I like them also because of the flow. In a way, they are similar to Tao Te Ching in that you can "see" a progression of your mind. It is like as though they are organic or living lessons if you will (hope I am making sense here).

I think we will have to bear in mind that Chinese Pureland is a bit different from the other Pureland. Having said that Pureland in general is IMHO a great vehical that is more inclined to build a Buddhist community or Buddhist nation if you will. The three achievements (3 jewels) of the historic Buddha are Dharma, Buddha, and Sangha. I believe Sangha was an innovative measure to the Indian society. That means you don't have to be an extreme ascetic or a Hindu priest to practice your spirituality. You now have like-minded moderate practicioners who formed a resource community (Sangha) as support for your spiritual practice. This model works very well through out the world and it would seem that the Sangha is going to be timeless (pun intended). In a way, Pureland retains Buddhism's Hindu roots much like the Vajrayana except that it is less secretive and criptic. One thing I find very interesting is that Chinese Pureland followers often greet or chante "Omitofu" which is translated as honored unquantifierable timeless awaken one. If we apply the same mind-body-speech logic of the Vajrayana and contemplate on what does honored unquantifierable timeless awaken one means, we are in essence practicing a "form" of Buddhist method.

many respects



Iron Fist,

7 is a number representing the 3 dimentional world in eastern thoughts. There are a few meaning to it. One of which is the representatin of life experienced as a linear temporal duration through the space/time continuum.

Regards

Mantis108

[prana]

Namaste Mantis108...

My apologies Mantis, that was rude of me. Here is a link to the sutra as translated by Robert Thurman...

http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/zen-writings/vimalakirti-nirdesa-sutra.htm


In a way, Pureland retains Buddhism's Hindu roots much like the Vajrayana except that it is less secretive and criptic. One thing I find very interesting is that Chinese Pureland followers often greet or chante "Omitofu" which is translated as honored unquantifierable timeless awaken one. If we apply the same mind-body-speech logic of the Vajrayana and contemplate on what does honored unquantifierable timeless awaken one means, we are in essence practicing a "form" of Buddhist method.


The tradition of Pure-land practice can be traced back to the monk Hui-yuan. In 402 A.D. Hui-yuan founded a 30 people group where monks and layman assembled in a temple (Fig. 1) and vowed to be reborn in the pure land before an image of the Buddha Amitabha. Hui-yuan is thus regarded as the first patriarch of this school

And, of course, the sanskrit version of "Omitofo", actually we were taught "Namo Ami to fo", I take refuge in Amitabha to be reborned in the Western Pureland, with complete heart.


He further declared that even evil men were eligible for the pure land if they sincerely uttered "Namo Amida Buddha" (take refuge in the Buddha Amitabha). It is believed that his following was largely among the laity, as there does not seem to have been any important monk followers of his own who established this tradition as an independent lineage.

It is actually the same as the Amitabha sadhana in sanskrit, Om Ami Dewa Hrih. The "enlightened Amitabha" "Dewachen" the western Pureland "Hrih" symbolises the heart in Vajrayana.

Very similar indeed. The only difference in the two is that the Vajrayanist place emphasis "also" on the powers of Vajrapani (the Blue Buddha on his left) and Chenrezig (white Buddha on his right) symbolising the powers and compassion of all the Buddhas, in a standing position, preparing to "invite" the soul towards their Buddhafield.

The Chinese Pureland practitioners take no meat at all as food.

Food for thought, sangha :)

Many Many respects

Karma

[mantis108]

Namasté Prana,

Thank you for the link and the info regarding Vajrayana, which always fasinates me. No appology needed, my friend. I appreciate your pointing the way, thanks. They are great. :)

Great respects,


Hi Crumble,

You have made some good points. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108