More questions, possibly stupid

[scotty1]

Hi
As I'm thinking of taking Wing Chun in the future and making it 'my chosen art' I'd like someone to explain to me:

How does WC defend against say, a boxers jab, ie. very quick, and quickly retracted? is is through body positioning?

Say the boxer jab/crossed (1-2). Would you use body positioning to avoid, blocks or parrys to redirect? Then move in and stick, keep striking?

[black and blue]

I think, under Yip Man lineage, the most common way of dealing with a fast jab is to use pak sau (a kind of sideways palm slapping block).

This is often done as pak da (ie. pak sau and punch as one motion), which helps negate the second strike from your opponent. I'm sure other guys will say this also, but every strike can be dealt with in a mulititude of ways depending on speed, strength, and angle of attacker.

Pak Sau would be a generic response against a fairly straight and fast punch. It's application is fast and requires little movement from the WC guard position. As with all WC deflections, it can lead to a bevy of counter attacks, whether used on inside or outside gates.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Duncan

[Sharky]

I don't think a pak would be fast enough to redirect a FAST jab.

I'm waiting for someone to say the usual "jab is for sport and not the street and wing chun is a streetfighting art"

[Sharky]

Actually, if you are in wing chun guard, you could pak. Sorry i was thinking that the wu sau'ing hand would be doing the paking - i don't think this would work, the man sau'ing hand should work though.

[vt108]

In my opinion Pak Sao is not the best block you can use. It is to dangerous because you can easly miss the comming punch.
The defence against a quick jab depends on your distance to your opponent, on which side of your hand the punch goes etc. Normally I would use Tan Sau. Ffootwork and timing are very important. You have to use correct angle to your opponent.

Pak Sao is good if the punch is very quick and you have to move your head to the side to not get hit. You go a liitle "around the punch". As soon as your head move your hands have to be up making Pak Sao. And againg, correct footwork is a key to seccess.

I hope this helps.

[burnsypoo]

wth is a "wing chun guard"?

[edward]

actually blocking a jab is easy if you understand the strategy and structure of how wing chun works..

technqiue wise you can use whatever you want, like what people listed on their, pak, tan, or whatever the case maybe....that's up to you..

but in order to get to that point, you need to simply enter into the range with your triangle structure, and just go into him..

understanding the trinagle makes dealing with the attack much easier.. the triangle covers your center and the left and right side... thus, your only concerned with what's in the trinagle area..... a boxer can defeat you if you play his game of boxing..... wing chun principle invovles jamming your opponent and controlling the center.. once your in range you move in wiht your traingle... and jam him up.... if his jab or other attacks come within the triangle then you feel and do what's necessary, pak , tan, etc....

its simple...

[Frank Exchange]

Wong Shun Leung liked to man sao, or bil if he was out of range, with the arm on the same side as the attacker, then follow the jab back on the inside as it was retracted to get a hit straight away.

Didnt matter how fast the jab was retracted, he got the hit. In a way, the harder the jab was pulled back, the easier it was to hit, as his striking arm was inside the jab, the retraction of the jab was pulling the hit in.

[black and blue]

The WC guard I was referring to would be man sau and wu sao. This configuration, I believe, is an example of the triangulation structure that Edward is talking about.

I think Frank and WSL's tactic of using man sau/bil sau follows on from this notion of using a triangle.

I have no idea how a pak sau would be too 'slow' against a jab!
:confused:

But I would agree with the other poster's comment about footwork and angling being the key to success. If your use of angles and footwork are poor, it doesn't really matter how fast your hands are, IMO. Sooner or later you're going to get hit if your body can't adapt to meet the requirements of your hands.

Duncan

[Sharky]

"I have no idea how a pak sau would be too 'slow' against a jab! "

Then you've never seen a proper jab before then.

[black and blue]

Hmmm... have seen a good jab and been hit by them :)

Have you seen a proper pak sau? (Not that I'm claiming mine is perfect)

If man sau or bil sau can defend against a jab, there is no reason why a pak sau can't, regardless of whether this originates from the man sau or wu sau hand. Obviously I'd have a preference here. From wu sau this would be a little too close for comfort against a fast jab (and they're never slow).

I could spout off about jabs being quick and thus lacking power, but having been lamped by a few, I know from first hand experience they can have good weight.

But Sharky, you've studied WC and now train in Boxing, yes? What would you use to defend a jab (one not covered by boxing gloves, mind)?

Duncan

[old jong]

...But normal type of question!...Edward is right but it may be a little to advanced for a beginner to really get the picture about the triangle concept. What I would like to add is: It is normal to wonder how to stop a particular attack. In the beginning, it is tempting to associate a certain technique to a certain punch and start to catalogue a list of self-defense tricks!...These things ,like all self-defense tricks, work very well when you know in advance what is coming!...Wing Chun is going to prepare you for defending against non predetermined attacks of all kinds with a great variety of interchangeables and adaptables motions.You will act accordingly with your position and preceding actions and will not use predetermined motions against attacks. This is processed by practicing the forms, chi sau and various drills and by recieving the attacks,not fighting against them!...You will find your answers in practice and they may differ from the other guy's...;) Get the idea?

[yuanfen]

Best thing is to devlop wing chun timing- rather than planning specific defenses. Dont underestimate a good boxer- no two jabs are exactly the same.As Heraclitus said---you never get hit with the same jab twice. OOps was that Ali? Or Yoda?

[hunt1]

THERE ARE NO BLOCKS IN WING CHUN!

The idea of blocking should only be used at an elementary level if you must use it at all.

[scotty1]

I guess what I was trying to say was this:

Here I am thinking of taking WC, and I'm imagining it as a very flowing art, what with all the sticking and that. And maybe its my very basic/incorrect idea of what WC is but I just can't imagine using that kind of art against something sharp and spiky like a boxer. You know? How are you supposed to stick to something thats retracted quicker than you can see?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging Wing Chun, I know that it must be able to defend against boxing, I just can't see how.

And I want positive answers to come out of this because then I can learn WC with no reservations! (And I've read that WC combined with a boxing, although not pure WC is a very effective combo. Leads to a hybrid which is kind of like boxing with excellent defense. Any thoughts on this?)

Apologies to all you purists.:D ;)

Sharky - you're boxing, hows it going?

[old jong]

Maybe you should take boxing?...

[jweir]

"I just can't imagine using that kind of art against something sharp and spiky like a boxer. "

This is a very good question, but it doesn't really apply to a Wing Tsun situation. From your description, I'm picturing this scenario: a boxer and a WT person are standing in front of each other within punching range. The boxer punches really fast and the WT person has to defend it quickly. You're not seeing how to defend it because it's so fast and someone saying "block it with a pak sau" probably means absolutely nothing to you. The problem with the scenario I pictured, is that the WT person would never stand within punching range and wait for an attack. If it's a surprise attack, that's different, but if both fighters are prepared, this could never happen. The WT person would already be moving forward throwing fast straight line punches (not to mention kicks) which would serve simultaneously as attack and defense.

"You know? How are you supposed to stick to something thats retracted quicker than you can see?"

I don't think you fully understand what we mean by "sticky." The goal isn't to just stick to anything within range. If an attacking appendage is retracting quickly or becomes a none-threat in some other way, you don't need to stick to it anymore, so you just attack.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I wonder what the boxer will do against a well executed chung choi, of course he would hook around straight punching, but then again that's what the bong can be used for.
mmmmmmmm I wonder.
Get my point?:)
Hope this Helps!!!!

[Merryprankster]

jweir,

please refer to the WC guy in American Kickboxing post. It can indeed happen that forward momentum is broken or that somebody just stands there.

Not disrespecting WC in any way. Just pointing out the blatantly obvious.

[dezhen2001]

Jweir: You mentioned what the Wing Chun guy would be doing, but what about the Boxer!:eek: They're not just gonna stand there and let you run away! Of course, as MP said it could happen...

In my limited experience of doing both, they are both very good at the ranges they specialise in. Once you start learning WC, and have a good foundation, why don't you try mucking around with a Boxer? You can both learn from the situation :)

In my experience of course WC uses straight attacks, so boxers will naturally try to hook around them etc. Not a 'haymaker' either, a sharp, quick one that you can't really see coming :( So you have to work on your footowrk and timing. There are many techniques that can be used against a hook etc. but the moment should dictate them.

The 2 things i find most difficult to protect against right now are hooks and uppercuts (but that's because my WC is bad :p).

good luck in finding a class and training,
david