Importance of third form

[gnugear]

How important is the third form?

We train at a slow pace and I probably won't get to it for a while.

[Alpha Dog]

Great first time post, by the way. Where u from?

[Cashier Graham]

From what I understand is the third form contains all the emergency nasty techniques and a lot go against the principles of wing chun but they're there for those exceptional circumstances.

[red5angel]

There are a lot of theories on the third form. Everybody has some idea of what it is suppose to do or be. I would say dont worry about it for now. The first form is the most important. Concentrate on this one and the rest will follow when you are ready!

[Sharky]

your profile is odd... u enjoy guitar wanking? mmkay, anyway 3years and not near teh 3rd form, yeah that's a bit slow, but i'm sure your sifu knows what he's doing. it's all cool, i wouldn't worry about it for now.

not that i got to the 3rd form or anything :(

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Sharky
your profile is odd... u enjoy guitar wanking? mmkay, anyway 3years and not near teh 3rd form, yeah that's a bit slow, but i'm sure your sifu knows what he's doing. it's all cool, i wouldn't worry about it for now.


LOL! Yeah, I'm a guitar player in my spare time. Wanking in guitarspeak refers to the un-taoist practice of excessive playing at loud volumes!:D

I've been studying the Leung Sheung system and we do move slowly. Reason being that the first and second form are really the most important to develop a good foundation. Honestly, I'm still discovering and polishing elements of Sil Lum Tao on a daily basis!

I'm just curious about the theories behind the third form since I haven't been exposed to it.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Great first time post, by the way. Where u from?

Thanks! I'm from Seattle.

[Tongue_of_Colibob]

Hey, it looks like im not the only wing chunner in the Seattle area. Are you learning at the school on the University campus from Steven Elaimy?

[gnugear]

I'm too old for school LOL!

I work out with Stephen at the Capital Hill studio.

[Roy D. Anthony]

What's more important, a clock or a compass?
there is where you will find your answer.
Hope this helps!!!!

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Roy D. Anthony
What's more important, a clock or a compass?
there is where you will find your answer.
Hope this helps!!!!

hmmm... still thinking

wait a minute ... this is a Biu Jee riddle. How would I know the answer if I don't know Bui Jee LOL!

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Roy D. Anthony
What's more important, a clock or a compass?
there is where you will find your answer.
Hope this helps!!!!

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to have to say compass.

You'll always have a relative reference for time (night, day), but you'll never truly know your direction.

... but then again who cares where you're going if you don't have a path.

I don't think that helped me.

[Wingman]

What's more important, a clock or a compass?

A compass to know where you're going; a clock to know how much time you've got.

[Nat from UK]

I believe one of the aspects of Bill Jee is that it free's you from the restrictions found in the 1st and 2nd form - Dont be a slave to Wing Chun be its Master -

I beleive WSL was participating in a "Test of Skill" when he kneed his opponents in the head - someone mentioned that that wasn,t pure Wing Chun as it was structurally incorrect. WSL responded that it was the closest weapon to the target and it worked therefore it was very pure Wing Chun.

I am sure David Peterson can elaborate (I read it in his WSL book)

Nat from UK

[diego]

From what I understand is the third form contains all the emergency nasty techniques and a lot go against the principles of wing chun but they're there for those exceptional circumstances.

what do you mean by goes agianst the principles, would you give me an example of a correct wingchun tech, from your style, then what would be a similar technique, but goes agianst the principal of wingchun?.
Thanks

[stuartm]

Hi all,

I read a book recently by John Little with interviews from different Martial Arts masters and he spoke on Biu Jee. In it, Hawkins Cheung stated that if your SLT and CK are good, then you will not (or rarely) need to use Biu Jee - and I would have to agree. Look at BJ in its essence - it is a recovery form when you make mistakes. So what does that tell you.

Lets not forget either that by the time you reach Biu Jee, you will have learnt most of its core techniques anyway !! SLT contains double biu and fak sau, while CK also contains biu and man sau. Like most WC students, I always felt BJ was the pinnacle of your WC training, but once I reached this stage it was somewhat of an anti-climax.

If you have been taught properly, you will also find that through chi sau / gor sau, you will already be using BJ techniques as a matter of course. Guaranteed that Biu Sau will be one of your core techniques.

From my point of view, I place more emphasis on SLT and CK, however i do still apprecoate the value of BJ. Remember Yip Mans words - 'BJ does not go out the door' which means that you should not have to use it. (although im sure few of us are at a level where we dont use it !!)

Regards, Stuart

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Cashier Graham
From what I understand is the third form contains all the emergency nasty techniques and a lot go against the principles of wing chun but they're there for those exceptional circumstances.

During emergency situations, biu jee lets you do whatever is necessary. Ducking, hopping, ground-fighting, etc. may seem like violating wing chun principles. But if these techniques helps you regain the centerline, then it is in line with wing chun principles.

For example "ducking". They say that wing chun practioners don't duck because it weakens/destroys your structure. But what if your hands are tied and there is no other defence against an incoming attack. Wouldn't you duck to avoid the incoming punch?

[edward]

bue gee not important... no offense but hawkins is wrong....

[stuartm]

Hi Edward - I wasnt saying that its not imporant, i was saying that BJ is not the be all and end all of your WC training. Read the article if you get the chance - HC recognises BJ, but doesnt bow down to it. You will find that many senior WC sifus agree with him.

Best Wishes, Stuart

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by stuartm
Remember Yip Mans words - 'BJ does not go out the door' which means that you should not have to use it.

Are you comfortable with that interpretation?

[Mr Punch]

Edward: are you saying that biu jee isn't important, or that Cheung was wrong in saying biu wasn't that important?

I'm with stuartm on this one: when you make a mistake in chi sau or sparring, biu jee naturally comes out.

AD: I often wondered what the hell that meant!! Does anyone know the context? Failing that can we have a lot of jumbled interpretations and smart comments please!:D

[yuanfen]

HC's interpretation or interpretation of HC's interpretaion-each to his own. Biu Jee is very important but if you dont have an excellent foundation in slt and ck knowing the sequence of bj wont mean much.

[Sharky]

"Wanking in guitarspeak refers to the un-taoist practice of excessive playing at loud volumes!"

I've played guitar since i was 6 and own 4 guitars and have never heard of this expression? :confused: :confused: :rolleyes: :p

[Alpha Dog]

Maybe a lot of people think Wing Chun is limited because they, like many posters here, think the first two forms have all the answers; then they get laid out by someone and feel that their MA has let them down.

SLT and Chum Qiu indeed make for a solid foundation, but what use is a foundation if you don't build on it?

[yuanfen]

StuartM quotes YM on biu jee not going out of the door. But I

am not sure that Stuart's interpretation of what that meant is correct. In any case Yip Man himself taught the biu jee to very few people and not in the open classes.

[Spark]

Originally posted by yuanfen
In any case Yip Man himself taught the biu jee to very few people and not in the open classes.

Maybe that's what he meant by "BJ does not go out the door" ???

[yuanfen]

you got it.

[stuartm]

We are all aiming to become formless in our art at the end of the anyway, so lets not all get hung up on set routines. We consolidate our art not on how well we can practise forms, but in chi sao and sparring.

Best Wishes, Stuart

[Cashier Graham]

For example "ducking". They say that wing chun practioners don't duck because it weakens/destroys your structure. But what if your hands are tied and there is no other defence against an incoming attack. Wouldn't you duck to avoid the incoming punch?

What I previously wrote wasn't meant to be a reflection on my ideas on fighting. Most of the time my techniques are made up on the fly as the situation dictates. What I wrote is what I believe to be a description of biu ji.


what do you mean by goes agianst the principles, would you give me an example of a correct wingchun tech, from your style, then what would be a similar technique, but goes agianst the principal of wingchun?.

In our style everything goes forward. One technique that is often performed incorrectly at our gym is gan sau where the student may pull the gan sau in allowing for a strike to the stomach or groin. Instead we guide it away from the body. Is this what you're looking for? I guess "principle of wing chun" is a very broad sweeping statement considering the number of versions, so always going forward is a principle of our wing chun. Or did you mean a similar technique in biu ji? In which case I wouldn't know because I havn't began to learn it yet. What I said was based on what I understood from explantions of it.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Sharky
"Wanking in guitarspeak refers to the un-taoist practice of excessive playing at loud volumes!"

I've played guitar since i was 6 and own 4 guitars and have never heard of this expression? :confused: :confused: :rolleyes: :p

What kind of guitar do you play? I'm usually playing a lot of 80s type rockin leads .... thus the term wanking. Lots of unecessary playing. If the blues were like Wing Chun (fewer notes, more meaning), than I would be a Wushu player (really fast and excessive) LOL!

[gnugear]

Originally posted by stuartm

I read a book recently by John Little with interviews from different Martial Arts masters and he spoke on Biu Jee. In it, Hawkins Cheung stated that if your SLT and CK are good, then you will not (or rarely) need to use Biu Jee - and I would have to agree. Look at BJ in its essence - it is a recovery form when you make mistakes. So what does that tell you.

Regards, Stuart

I've heard this as well. But that's about all I know.

[Alpha Dog]

Why not learn Biu Jee first, then decide for yourselves? the only reason i could see students contemplating not learning the form is that they are in a hurry to say they know all they need to know about Wing Chun. Wrong attitude (not my humble opinion either).

[Spectre]

Originally posted by yuanfen
In any case Yip Man himself taught the biu jee to very few people and not in the open classes.

Response posted by Spark
Maybe that's what he meant by "BJ does not go out the door" ???

Response posted by yuanfen
you got it.



So how do we know how many students Yip Man taught Biu Jee to if he did not teach it in open classes?

Kevin

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Spectre



So how do we know how many students Yip Man taught Biu Jee to if he did not teach it in open classes?

Kevin

I know that he taught Leung Shueng

[Sam]

Biu Gee

The Thrusting, Darting Fingers also known as Poison Snake Hand is the third and most advanced form. It develops internal Ging, vertical and horizontal tork, yin and yang theory, inner and outer gate theory, finger and elbow to full body attack, redirection, loose hand and flying chi/eating chi and expulsion/absorption, Fa Ging, vagabond and visibility and advanced Dim Mak.

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