WC in American Kickboxing Match

[Merryprankster]

Well, at the fights I went to this weekend, there was a WC guy who stepped into the ring against what appeared to be a TKD guy in an American Kickboxing match.

Of course, he lost. I say "of course," because that was a function of the rules--American Kickboxing rules weren't built around WC. From a strictly "battling," perspective, it was more or less even.

Here's the BAD stuff the WC guy did.

First, he carried his right down near his floating rib, with his right fist near his left elbow. I have no idea if this is the "fighting stance of WC," I'm just saying this--IF the opponent had been a better boxer, the WC guy would have been eating left hooks all freaking night. As it is, the kickboxer figured out that kicking to the head with his left was an effective tool as a follow-up to other techniques. However, he figured it out 30 seconds before the end of the last round, and only managed to land THREE kicks upside the head of the WC guy, knocking him over twice. It usually took the form of: lead right hand, left "push" type punch, almost simultaneously, and WHACK to the head.

Secondly, the guy had ZERO sense of distance. By this, I mean that he didn't attempt to stay at or maneuver the guy into his most effective range. It was largely a "charge in, cross your fingers and pray." I realize that getting inside is kind of the goal, but when you don't drive the opponent backwards, and don't have enough power on the inside to rock him, he doesn't stay at that "sweet spot," and you need to adjust to that (like using your footwork to take an angle, since you don't want to just stand there.)

Thirdly, whatever technique it was that he was using to handle the left hand of the incoming opponent was leaving him open to the overhand right. It's like when he went out with his right to do whatever it was he was doing to the left, he would drop his left slightly. In the first round, he ate a lot of overhand rights. This is not a product of the technique, obviously. It was a failure to keep the hand up.

Fourth--He never initiated a THING. I'm not talking about a full bore assault, but a feint or two could have been very useful to this guy. As it was, the kickboxer was free to choose his moment and method of assault.

I really don't care if I "didn't understand what I was seeing because I don't understand WC." When you get whacked upside the head, HARD, you have to adjust.

Now, the good stuff:

He did a really good job, once he corrected dropping his left, of using that technique (whatever it was) to close the gap and get inside. He left the kickboxer little space when he did that and really jammed him up good. Nice work

A couple of times, the techniques he used to block and move in on his opponents kicks left his opponent on his ass. Not catching the kick, just dumping him over. It was very nice. They ALWAYS jammed him up and got him off balance, however.

He was very active on the inside, even when there was little effect, he kept throwing. That's good--it covers you from getting whacked hard in return. If he could've coupled it with better footwork, it would have been phenomenal, instead of just good.

He did a good job of cutting off the ring. When he DID back his opponent up, he used his forward pressure to keep him in the corner. Some may not feel that is applicable, but bars have corners and walls.

To sum up, the things he did well, he did well. The things he did poorly were just a hair dangerous, in my mind.

He performed pretty well, had a good chin, and good heart. Props to him for stepping up. In a more loosely regulated event, I would have been hard pressed to declare a winner.

[Akuma]

what sorta gloves were they wearing? and what were the rules?

btw sounds like it was a good fight :)

[Merryprankster]

They were wearing normal boxing gloves, which I'm sure inhibited some of the techniques and the rules are essentially that you have to throw something like 8 kicks per round and they must be above the belt. They must also be real kicks, not half-assed.

All shots are above the belt in that sport.

They are, however, full contact.

[red5angel]

Glad to see someone studying WC is putting up a good fight. Hopefully he will learn from his mistakes and improve. All of the fights I have seen involving WC are almost embarrassing. They usually get their a$$e$ handed to them.
On the up side it has given me the drive to practice hard so that I can compete effectively and put up a good fight!

[yuanfen]

A honest question...what did you mean by "a wc guy"? Was he introduced as such? Any idea who he was learning wc from and for how long? And gloves were required...right? Not debating-just inquiring!!

[Merryprankster]

Well, the WC shirt he was wearing in the locker room kinda gave it away, as did the blind folded chi sao drills he was doing in that knock kneed stance you guys seem to like :)

Also, while I was warming up with pummelling they (his trainers) asked about it... they'd never seen it before, but commented that it looked a lot like chi sao drills.

The fight card also said that he was from a Wing Chun Academy... but I don't remember the name of the place, just that it was "so and so's" WC Academy.

It was clearly NOT JKD.

No idea about who he was training with and how long.

Gloves were required.

[CanadianBadAss]

Once my WC skills get better I plan on competing in some type of event, Sport jujistu rules seem to be the most unrestricted, except that whole grappling part might be a *****. But I wouldn't want to enter on of these things with out any real experience sparring grapplers. So what would I do? Go into a BJJ school and see if any one is intrested in sparring? would they be offended and think its a challange and try to kill me? what should i do?

[Merryprankster]

Sport jiujitsu rules are the wrong answer. You want MMA rules or Vale Tudo rules or No Holds Barred (misnomer) rules. All three terms mean the "same" thing.

There is no striking in sport BJJ.

And yes, you desperately need to train with people who know ground work and will try to take you down before you do any of these events.

I would go to a school and just be respectful in your request and honest about your intentions. If they don't respect your honesty and just try to school you (not kick your ass, different issue:)), then you don't need them. You can also poke around and ask on the underground to try and find somebody who is willing to train with you.

[yuanfen]

Well, the WC shirt he was wearing in the locker room kinda gave it away, as did the blind folded chi sao drills he was doing in that knock kneed stance you guys seem to like
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Blinfold chi sao drills before a match!!! And with gloves on, he was holding his hands low? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.!!

[CanadianBadAss]

Thanks Merry.

Do you know where i kind find a list of MMA or Vale Tudo or No Holds Barred events? (to see if any are in my area...)

[Merryprankster]

www.mma.tv has a list of events. You can also ask around on that forum. It's sort of a Mecca.

Yuan--I agree about the gloves, but as far as the chi sao drills, that may have been part of mental preparation. You do what you have to to get comfortable. One of my friends gets quiet and wants to hurt everybody he sees for everything they do that annoys him about 15 minutes before the match. He's just that way. I get uncontrollably chatty and can't stop smiling--it's part of my mental prep, for what ever reason. Maybe chi sao drills made him comfortable... I mean, you and I both know the time is past for improvement at that point, but if it makes him happy before the match, so be it :)

[rogue]

Merry was the guy from a Moy Vat school? Last year a couple of MV guys were working with a friend of mine who's a kickboxer and they had the same problem with keeping the distance, and the geography is about right too. If the guy had a good roundhouse kick I may know him.

[KenWingJitsu]

"He did a really good job, once he corrected dropping his left, of using that technique (whatever it was) to close the gap and get iside. "

Can you describe what it was? Was it the hopping on the rear leg thing?

[black and blue]

Merry Prankster wrote: "The fight card also said that he was from a Wing Chun Academy... but I don't remember the name of the place, just that it was "so and so's" WC Academy."

Hey! Could this be Augustine Fong's WC Academy?

Yuenfen has beads of sweat breaking out on the forehead...


:D :D :D :p

[Merryprankster]

I'm going to operate under the assumption that it wasn't a Moy Vat school. I think I would have remembered that name, and this guy never threw a roundkick of any sort.

One technique the guy used to close the gap was that knee raising, rear leg thing. He got knocked over twice by a couple of hard sidekicks when he did it. I shudder to think what would have happenned if these had been MT rules (Kick the support leg, ick.). It seemed to me that he spent too long with his weight BACK instead of crashing down, and that is what created the opening to get knocked around.

However, the technique I'm discussing was more of a deflection of the incoming left by rolling his right over top of the left forearm. The problem is that he would "bobble" his left and the other guy would come offline slightly and rock him with an overhand right.

The bottom line is that the WC guy took too many shots without seriously rocking his opponent. There are many people for which a big overhand right is a finishing blow. There was a lack of evasion tactics--he never took the angle or did anything to mitigate the shots. He blocked SOME of them and was able to press the attack on the centerline sometimes when he did...but he never took an angle or evaded, and the law of averages makes you get hit in the face when you stand in front of your opponent and wait. If he can work on that I really think he'll improve.

But, like I said--he did a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong--completely mixed bag and not a bad fight. :)

[red5angel]

Hey CBA, I am currently training hard to get into some tourneys using my WC. This is the approach I am taking, if anyone else has any criques feel free!
I am going to start by just doing some light trianing with a wrestling friend of mine, easy to get a hold of and easy to get together with, hes good and so that helps, although I know wrestling and other grappling arts are different animals.
When I thin I am ready, there are a few mixed schools around here I am going to appraoch about sparring with some instructors or students for the purpose of developing my wing chun on the ground. I have a feeling that I will find someone receptive to helping me with my training, especially after writing a check!
What MP said about looking for is good advice, if they dont seem sincere in helping you learn what you need to then move on, it isnt worth it.

[rogue]

Don't forget your standup. Work with some kickboxers, Muay Thai and whatever else you can dig up. Learn to control the ring like MP said the WC fighter did.

Merry, what were the rules? Were takedowns allowed? Any ideas on how the WC fighter could've stayed in his sweet spot more?

[Merryprankster]

In the American Kickboxing match, no takedowns were allowed; no strikes below the belt. Typical kickboxing.

[rogue]

Too bad, takedowns make things more interesting.

Any ideas on how the WC fighter could've stayed in his sweet spot more? What range did the kickboxer fight from and what did he score with the most?

[Merryprankster]

The kickboxer had LOUSY hands. He scored most when he could keep the WC guy at bay with his kicks. He scored most highly with head shots to the right side of the WC guy thanks to the aforementioned hand position.

The WC guy needed to MOVE. Standing right in front of your opponent, waiting for an attack, gets you hit. It's that simple. You're not going to block and deflect everything, get your opening, and end it. And because of that, eventually, you'll get tagged. Do it enough and you'll eventually get knocked out or take a beating.

In boxing I get yelled at "don't stand in front of him, Move, ******! Draw him out of stance, take the angle :)"

In WC speak, what's being said is "get off your opponents centerline and keep him on yours by using your footwork."

In short, he could have used his forward pressure to cover movements away from his opponents power side to reduce the effectiveness of the kickboxer's attacks. He really needed to take the angle, and failed to do so.

This is why I say a better boxer would have eaten him alive--standing right in front of his opponent + low hands= getting hit a lot.

[red5angel]

Good point on the astand up work Rogue, although to play devils advocate, I would say good chi sau work will do you well enough for the upper two gates.

[yuanfen]

The WC guy needed to MOVE. Standing right in front of your opponent, waiting for an attack, gets you hit.
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That is some undertrained wc guy. Folks have to learn wc first before they claim that there are wc folks. WC is about motion!

[yuanfen]

Beginner's chi sao might. Good chi sao ends up teaching you about all gates. It takes time and good instruction and practice.

[red5angel]

Yuanfen, I highly agree! It seems most of the WC guys I have seen fight tend to let thier opponent come to them. I have a feeling this may have to do with the fact that when first starting WC footwork it seems awkward and immoveable, as time goes on though you come to find it is highly mobile and very flexible!

I stand corrected on the chi sau!

[Sharky]

tsk. just cos he lost he can't claim wc.

if a boxer lost, you wouldn't say "he's not a boxer", you wouldn't think twice about it.

give the guy a break, at least he stepped up and put up, which ismore than you do.

i want to see wc in nhb, with minimal gloves - wc with boxing gloves is silly.

[red5angel]

I m not even convinced you can call it WC with boxing gloves on!

[Merryprankster]

Sharky,


On the NHB type stuff subject, I saw him fight Nakupan Phongephorn--a very good thaiboxer and purple belt in BJJ.

This guy punched into clinch range. The rest was somewhat predictable. Needs to train with some wrestlers, me thinks.

[yuanfen]

tsk. just cos he lost he can't claim wc.
((You missed the point. its his footwork and mobility as described-
not his loss))

if a boxer lost, you wouldn't say "he's not a boxer", you wouldn't think twice about it.

((Yes I could. I check on boxers backgrounds.If you know anything you look at his record and trainer etc. Tough guy contests are not boxing. I have seen Ed Too Tall Jones of the dallas Cowboys ina boxing match- he was no boxer- he moved like a football lineman which he was evn though he got a boxing trainer briefly))

give the guy a break, at least he stepped up and put up, which ismore than you do.

(Really- how do you know what i do or what have I done?You mean i dint show up somewhere for your entertainment)

i want to see wc in nhb, with minimal gloves - wc with boxing gloves is silly.
((I dont. Infantile entertainment involvement but values understandably vary)))

[diego]

i want to see wc in nhb, with minimal gloves - wc with boxing gloves is silly.
((I dont. Infantile entertainment involvement but values understandably vary)))

if one only does chisao, how do you know your style is good if you dont 'spar/have challenge matches' with other styles!?.

didnt IpMan tell his students to go out and test thier skills, then they did that whole rooftop thing, wich i read died out in the mid 60s?.

How could one get advanced training only doing chisao, i mean once you get advanced thiers only so many people who have the skill level as you, now what if thiers a jujitsu guy who hands down you admit you would never fight!, what if he doesnt know chisao, how are you going to fruther advance your skill at the higher levels, besides wasnt ipman challenging people left and right, like the story how he made that bakmei sifu is student" cant remember the name"

no disrespect, but reading this post this is what came up, and i remember reading in the sparring thread, many wingchun guys seem to only do chisao, for combat practise, and i find this interesting, because its well documented the early yipman students went out and tested thier skills on differant styles, so why dont more wc guys now enter these comps, if it seems violent and childish the moment you start getting beat up, and you realize you dont have a chance, just tappout!.:)

[yuanfen]

if one only does chisao, how do you know your style is good if you dont 'spar/have challenge matches' with other styles!?.
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Cracks me up. You think that TV and other entertainment events are the only kind of testing there is??? Yip man's own tesing was often alone... not for your entertainment.

[Sharky]

"On the NHB type stuff subject, I saw him fight Nakupan Phongephorn--a very good thaiboxer and purple belt in BJJ.

This guy punched into clinch range. The rest was somewhat predictable. Needs to train with some wrestlers, me thinks."

Firstly, what a odd name. Secondly, i would never tell him that to his face. Thirdly, i can't see any style beating someone with those credentials :eek:

Although i heard all BJJ purple belts were ugly geekazoids.

[Merryprankster]

But Yuan,

Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of going and finding other styles to play with? I agree that the “TV and entertainment,” events you seem to disdain so much are not the ONLY venue to test your skills. However, it seems to me that Yip Man’s testing would still have been WC against WC. Or did he bring in different styles of Kung Fu to test his students? Or did he know another style himself?

Just because you are successful fighting your own style in the kwoon doesn’t mean you won’t have problems fighting, say, a Judoka, in much the same way that ring success doesn’t guarantee street fighting success.

Well, Nakupan is Thai, so that's why it sounds odd...

[yuanfen]

I agree that the “TV and entertainment,” events you seem to disdain so much are not the ONLY venue to test your skills.
((Audience oriented sports are audience oriented sports MP...we keep saying the same things over and over again))

However, it seems to me that Yip Man’s testing would still have been WC against WC.
((You dont know much about Yip Man apparently. Again lots of very good street fighetrs that I have known are unsung in TV and public matches))

Or did he bring in different styles of Kung Fu to test his students?
((Plethora of fighting styles in HK in the 50s. Many of Yip Man's
students tested themselves. Some of the HK folks were triad members and did things for real-not for a wide audience))))
Or did he know another style himself?
((Wing Chun was his main style. Old masters knew what some other styles did. he himself once joked to disguise his wc-that he knew a little hsing yi))

Just because you are successful fighting your own style in the kwoon doesn’t mean you won’t have problems fighting, say, a Judoka, in much the same way that ring success doesn’t guarantee street fighting success.

((true-but you are making assumptions on what tseting has been done by whom))

[Merryprankster]

Not really. I was asking a question that got more or less answered--somewhat defensively in my mind, but I can appreciate the reasons behind that.

Simply saying--Yip Man's students tested themselves against other stylists at his behest would have sufficed nicely.

I disagree COMPLETELY about the "audience oriented sports stuff," but that's hardly spectacularly relevant, so I see no need to beat a dead horse, yeah? :)

[rogue]

yuanfen,
You stated that you sparred with a boxer and a wrestler. What did you find you had the most difficultly with working against their styles, and where did you find gaps in their styles that you were able to take advantage of?

edited

[yuanfen]

The "swami" is in levitation. Try some other time.