The Status Quo/Good Barbito Article

[Black Jack]

Here is a short article written by Demi Barbito that I found excellent in its ability to sum up a lot of what is out their today in terms of so-called "self defense" instruction.

It is IMHO a good running list to check/compare ones training and ones current ideas out on.

2/24/2002

The Status Quo-The state of things as they are at the moment. The current affairs.

The status quo in martial arts.

* Instructors are allowing people to believe that there is some type of martial majic in the world.
* Students are still looking for some kind of martial majic.
* Instructors are looking for disciples, not students.
* Students are star struck by their instructors.
* Instructors do not teach all they know, even to thier advanced students.
* Instructors/schools look at students as resources, not people.
* Instructors/schools are still teaching people how to fight instead of how to avoid violence.
* Certification is placed over ability.
* Weapons, ground fighting, OC Spray and firearms are horribly neglected.
* Combat Athletics (Attributes) are totally neglected.
* Students accept what they are told instead of evaluating what they are told.
* Schools/Instructors do not evaluate themselves or their programs periodicaly where improvements can be made to the tactics or training. I've been doing this since....and I will always do it this way...
* Instructors don't train with their students.
* Students are still being trained to fight against an opponent of the same style.
* Instructors and students do not spend time training against uncooperative partners.
* Instructors and students are still repeating the same material for years and years.

Death to the status quo...

[Black Jack]

ttt

[mantis108]

If I may:

"The Status Quo-The state of things as they are at the moment. The current affairs.

The status quo in martial arts."

* Instructors are allowing people to believe that there is some type of martial majic in the world.

By that I think both traditional and modern MA are at fault. i.e. Chi and firearms disarming.

* Students are still looking for some kind of martial majic.

Martial arts, and to a certain degree martial sports, are about giving hope to people especially those who are disadvantagous, ie smaller physique. Without hope why do what you do?

* Instructors are looking for disciples, not students.

This arguement is rooted in cultural differences. We got to ask ourselves whether we want a lifestyle (disciples) or entertainment (students). For instructors (the good ones), it is a lifestyle. So it is totally understandable to want to teach like minded people. It is up to the students to make the plunch.

* Students are star struck by their instructors.

Again both Trad. MA and Mod. MA do the same thing. A tall tale becames an even taller tale with each repetition. Don't you think?
That is the reason why it is important to teach the student how to learn (to precieve) correctly.

* Instructors do not teach all they know, even to thier advanced students.

Ultimately, the inner most feelings have to come from within. No one can teach it to you from without. The reliance on "outer supereme force" is a total western prespective.

* Instructors/schools look at students as resources, not people.

Well, that's the North American cultural thing.

* Instructors/schools are still teaching people how to fight instead of how to avoid violence.

I agreed whole hearted about this.

* Certification is placed over ability.

Again, I agreed.

* Weapons, ground fighting, OC Spray and firearms are horribly neglected.

True to a certain degree. It depends on the objective of the MA program.

* Combat Athletics (Attributes) are totally neglected.

I am not sure whether to agree or disagree. Need to define Combat Athletics because every MA's requirements are different.

* Students accept what they are told instead of evaluating what they are told.

This is a tough one. It is as much fault the student has as the instructors

* Schools/Instructors do not evaluate themselves or their programs periodicaly where improvements can be made to the tactics or training. I've been doing this since....and I will always do it this way...

I think revising is nessary and I am pretty sure the good instructors do that too (I know a few that do). I myself do it as well because teaching is in fact a learning experience. But you have to watch not to change it all too often. Just adjustments so that the students won't be disoriented.

* Instructors don't train with their students.

This is a tough one. If you do train with each class (upto 3 classes a day) you might be overtraining yourself. Plus you won't be able to help those who have difficulties coping with the class. So it's a tough one to balance.

* Students are still being trained to fight against an opponent of the same style.

I don't agree with the logic of the statement. You are expecting an instructor of Mixed Martial Arts to teach one specific style or vice versa?

* Instructors and students do not spend time training against uncooperative partners.

This would be kind of a sweeping general statement.

* Instructors and students are still repeating the same material for years and years.

You are what you training. That's is nothing wrong in training the same material over and over but it is wasteful not to see where the training is heading. All aspects of the system should reinforce each other, that's what a system is about. Sometime the simple solution is the best solution.

Death to the status quo...

Yes death to the status quo. :)

Mantis108

[JWTAYLOR]

I was happy to see my school fall outside of the listed "status quo" with the exeption of one:

* Instructors/schools are still teaching people how to fight instead of how to avoid violence.

We don't do any kind of avoidance, awareness, defensive mindset stuff at all. Mabye one big class and exercise a year, but that's it.

JWT

[Dark Knight]

* Students are still being trained to fight against an opponent of the same style.

I don't agree with the logic of the statement. You are expecting an instructor of Mixed Martial Arts to teach one specific style or vice versa? "

The point here is the students are trained to fight against people who fight one way only. Many instructors dont want to recognize other styles, if they did the students would not see them as martial arts gods.

This is why some styles, Like TKD, get a bad name. They tell their students that they teach the ultimate style, dont prepare them to fight other ways and when they get into a fight with a person who fights drastically different, they get beat.

[Black Jack]

That sounds like a good school JWT, most of us who are interested in the full specturm of self defense have to piece meal together some of the listed pieces, which by itself is not really a bad thing if the teacher does not have the experiance or skills in a certain area, just expensive.

For instance firearms training, I have only seen a very small handfull of traditional schools that make this part of their instruction format, and on most occasions it is outsourced, again something which is not bad, the best instruciton in this matter is often those who focus on just on gunfighting, though teachers with past military or LEO experiance are often very helpfull in this area.

Places like GunSite, Lethal Force Institute, Midwest Training Group, Tactical Defense Center, NRA Groups and so on.

The same goes for OC Spray, effective stick, knife, and awareness training.

Mantis 108- I "think" that what he means is to view this list in a more generic manner, a total self defense point of view, not one of a specific style, its either a place that teaches or promotes total self preservation or it does not kind of a thing.

[JWTAYLOR]

Actually our firearms training is outsourced to Gary Swan, my instructor's first major teacher. He teaches in Universal City, right outside of San Antonio. My instructor has recommended him to many students.

We do work gun disarms in house but not until the "advanced" level.

I like my instructor allot since, when he doesn't know how to do something well, he either recommends you someone to go to or brings them into the school for a seminar. We have a pretty good amount of guest instructors.

I appreciate someone being able to say "I can't do that as well as "so and so" can. Go to them first."

JWT

[shaolinboxer]

Oh, fun! Lessee...

A. Instructors are allowing people to believe that there is some type of martial majic in the world.
B. Students are still looking for some kind of martial majic.

B is what enables A. People want to be more than they are, and achieve some sense of being a part of something great by mystifying it. Unfortunately, when people worship you it can go to your head.

* Instructors are looking for disciples, not students.

Yes. My experiece at USA Shaolin Temple taught me that.

* Students are star struck by their instructors.

Yes. It reminds of of something Henry Kissinger said: " One of the nice things about being a celebrity is that when you bore people, they think it's their fault."

* Instructors do not teach all they know, even to thier advanced students.

If you are constantly learning, how is it possible to teach everything you know?

* Instructors/schools look at students as resources, not people.

And students see their masters as resources, not people. THis combined with mutual respect leads to healthy training.

* Instructors/schools are still teaching people how to fight instead of how to avoid violence.

This is sad to me, but it is true.

* Certification is placed over ability.

Certification and ability are two seperate issues. It is a personal decision how you value them, not your instructor's.

* Weapons, ground fighting, OC Spray and firearms are horribly neglected.

Perhaps. I train weapons. Firearms are an exceptional case, and a subject I do not know enough about to comment. Ground fighting is not for everyone. If you want this kind of training, I believe the police or armed forces are your best choice.

* Combat Athletics (Attributes) are totally neglected.

Neglected, ignored, replaced, discounted....for the 30 second encounters in which you need to survive a fight, combat athletics aren't too necessary, but ofcourse they are beneficial.

* Students accept what they are told instead of evaluating what they are told.

My sensei doesn't say anything.

* Schools/Instructors do not evaluate themselves or their programs periodicaly where improvements can be made to the tactics or training. I've been doing this since....and I will always do it this way...

This is not true in my training.

* Instructors don't train with their students.

This is not true in my training.

* Students are still being trained to fight against an opponent of the same style.

We are not taught to fight.

* Instructors and students do not spend time training against uncooperative partners.

There is a range between cooperative and uncooperative. I think trainiers need to see this as a graduating scale, rather than in black and white.

* Instructors and students are still repeating the same material for years and years.

This is the key to mastery.

[Black Jack]

Shaolinboxer,

Two points if I may on your points.

1. Weapons- By weapons I think of practical weapons and not exotic and rare chinese weapons, though I do believe they hold value in attribute training, the weapons I think of as needed are, knife (both attack and defense), stick ( attack and defense, both baton, long and fist sized varities), firearms (safety, basic and advanced tacitcal shooting principles, personal defense, pistol, shotgun, rifle) OC spray and other hybrid means of defense such as enviromental weapons.

I work with knife and stick methods myself, my tactical firearm knowledge needs to be updated, so I am going to be taking courses at the Midwest Training Group both for pistol, shotgun and pointshooting, OC Spray only consisted of one course a few years back.

You do not need the military and law enforcement proffessions to get firearm skills, IMHO you can get amazing training in the civilan sector, far beyond that of the standard army or leo officer.

I think firearms solid training is a MUST for people serious about personal self defense.

2. I agree that repeating material is the key to mastery. If I could hazard a guess though, I think he may of be looking at those who do not expand their sylabus to include updates in modern training methods, principles and technologies, that is what I take it as.

Just thoughts.

[Dark Knight]

* Combat Athletics (Attributes) are totally neglected.

Neglected, ignored, replaced, discounted....for the 30 second encounters in which you need to survive a fight, combat athletics aren't too necessary, but ofcourse they are beneficial. "

I thought the same until I fought a kickboxer. He trained for 12 rounds. I took him to the ground to beat him, but in the end I though I was going to die from the length the fight went.

I have fought many trained fighters, and the 30 second statement is a great theory, but if you need to back up your training with another trained fighter, its going to last a while.

Now I train for fighters who can last, its better to be prepared for the worse.


"* Instructors do not teach all they know, even to thier advanced students.

If you are constantly learning, how is it possible to teach everything you know? "

many schools have people with limited knowledge. Today everyone want to be a "Soke" founder of their own system. They stop learning with the exception of video tapes. When a student moves up it does not take long to learn everything the instructor has.

Then when he opens his school he has limited info.

"* Weapons, ground fighting, OC Spray and firearms are horribly neglected.

Perhaps. I train weapons. Firearms are an exceptional case, and a subject I do not know enough about to comment. Ground fighting is not for everyone. If you want this kind of training, I believe the police or armed forces are your best choice. "

Groudfighting is not for everyone, just as strikeing is not. But you must have knowledge in it, otherwise you will be in trouble when faceing someone who is strong in it.

As far as firearms, the military is very limited in its training, and most police must qualify just once a year.

Your best bet are outside providers (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch...)
Everyone should have knowledge of guns, even if its jsuat safety.

I have seen instructors teach gun disarms that are a joke, its obvious they have no knowledge of guns.

the same with knives. i teach knife fighting and Im in schock on some of the disarms that are taught.

[Shooter]

Every point the guy makes can apply to any group of MAs people though. Especially the one about people being star-struck...I see that in EVERY circle. That, coupled with the idea that there is a distinction between the instructor and the student provides an ignition source to the fires of elitistism. :p

What I mean is that in a good combatives program, the training group should be more of a team-based enterprise than a class setting. The team-leader is the go-to guy who provides guidance, and more importantly, the guy who asks the trainee the hard questions that they have to find the answers to on their own terms, in regard to their own situation as well as current, and pre-existing circumstance.

Each team member brings something different to the table. The best programs challenge the trainee to become their own instructor from day-1. Self-determination is the cornerstone of one's own empowerment. Everything on that list immediately goes out the window in that type of training environment.

[Black Jack]

Shooter:D

"Self Determination"-That's the real key right their, if you see that the program you are in does not have a certain needed element, go find it and add it in.

I also think the team atmosphere is the best. Teachers learn from students all the time, at least the good and open minded ones do.

Shaolinboxer- I don't think that by groundfighting or sports grappling anyone is saying become a wrestler, only to include that into your program as it is a VITAL aspect of what happens in a real fight, even if the training is only basic, it is still better than nothing at all.

Myself, that is an area I would like to improve as well, but with a direct focus on striking when on the ground, my own ground stuff now is basic, but still effective, just not on a advanced grappling level, a bit of generic JKD grappling, some small aspects of Naban and some combatives.

I am waiting intell I find something something that clicks in with what I want in my own training, when time becomes available I am hoping for some American Catch Wrestling and Irish Collar and Elbow wrestling, I like to keep in western nowadays, though anything that works I like.

[Ryu]

Aww, Dark Knight stole my post....
Thanks a lot, DK


I would completely agree. Your energy reserves go down massively in a real fight. The mixture of adrenaline, fear, surprise, environment, etc. all take out your endurance MUCH faster then if you were just sparring with a friend.

Ryu

[Shooter]

Black Jack, I don't understand the motives behind that "article" though. If you read through the threads on the numerous "modern combatives" message boards, the same elitist bull$#!+ gets repeated over and over. The denigration of everyone not within those circles or those whom are given ascendancy to the same elite status as being privy to "martial truth" serves no purpose. All these modern combatives enthusiasts make the same generalizations...nothing specific...just lots of "us and them"

Do these guys plan on doing something about it or just p!$$ and moan and puff themselves up? Really...What are you gonna do about it? :p

[shaolinboxer]

Well said gentleman. Now I would like to raise two points:

On exotic weapons: I will speak to my own practice, which is Yagyu Shikage Ryu Kenjutsu (samurai sword stuff). There are some key elements to weapons figthing that are embodied in the classical styles that are always applicable....such as angles of attack, blending, cutting, intercepting, rhythm, distance...

And the simple fact that they are just plain cool.

This gives them enough value to be practiced, IMO. (Not counting the zen factor, the history/evolution of the arts factor)

On conditioning: The factors involved that remove your capacity for performace are triggered by the effects of combat on the mind. Increasing your physical capacity is one way to resolve this problem. The mind is effected, but the body can handle it. Is it possible then, to train the mind so that the body does not react in such a way that you require such physical endurance to make up for it?

[Black Jack]

I agree, the same elitist attitude is seen in a lot of the JKD/Street Combatives realm, it's one of the reasons I left JKD, the same attitude can be seen in the sports mma realm as well, its nothing new.

In my view however that does not take away from the posts points, points that are very valid, its not a style vrs style post, no where does he mention Tai Chi or Hung Gar or TKD or JKD or what have you, IMHO its a how & what enviroment do you train in post.

I don't agree with a statement that includes "all of these modern combative enthusiasts make the same generalizations", thats just as an ignorant viewpoint as in saying that all Tai Chi teachers are bell-bottom wearing chi hippy's and its "just" a system for internal health.

What are they supposed to do about what???

I see these points as valid, this is not a post about all schools but about a percentage, not all will have all of these points, to me its more of a mix and match thing, some may not have any.

How can a school claim to teach self-defense if it does not at least endorse that such things as attribute training, modern weapon skills, ground fighting, awareness training, and so forth be looked at by the student, even if the school itself does not teach these things, they should at least point out the way to find them.

[Shooter]

Black Jack, point taken on my own generalizations....see where I'm coming from though? :)


Is it possible then, to train the mind so that the body does not react in such a way that you require such physical endurance to make up for it?

Yes. It's matter of one's perceived role in conflict. Prey? :eek: Or predator? :cool:

[Silumkid]

The "status quo", huh? Lately, the only status quo I have seen is people who run around with the "I train the way you should be training" mentality. This whole list is such a sweeping generalization that it made me laugh just reading it. If that was the point, thanks. I love to see these "What all martial art schools do" types of things when you know d@mn good and well the author probably went to three schools in his town.

The one point I'm going to bother responding to is the one about practicing the same material for years and years. NO KIDDING! I wasn't a marksman the first time I picked up a gun. I couldn't bench 1,000 pounds the first time I picked up a barbell. I couldn't break a 4 minute mile the first time I ran. I couldn't knock out a 300 pound attacker the first time I threw a punch. It's called practice, coupled with a little thing called sport specificity. Suck it up.

[Black Jack]

Shaolinboxer:)

I would not count kenjitsu to be ultra exotic, I was more in the focus of a person who says they do practical weapon work and it turns out they are talking about those fire and earth wheels or saying that they do a twin sword form and it applies to a knife.

I do fencing so I can see where you are coming from, the art of the sword besides being a blast, offer a unquie form of inexpensive excercise, build endurance, timing, grace, poise, coordination, strength, flexibility and the capacity to relax under fire.

Classical fencing to me is like a game of chess but in uncharted territory and its training as done by my Western ancestors can be directly translated to a large knife like the bowie or any fixed bladed or big folder.

[Black Jack]

Shooter, I see your point and agree with it, generalizations are a bad thing all around, I know their are great traditional chinese, korean, filipino, burmese, japenese, teachers and schools out their, teachers who are not closed up about themselves and theirs styles, teachers who say, "you know what guys, I don't have an answer for everything, this is what we do and this is what I do well, here are the things that you should find more qualified instruction on, things that you should know about for a more complete knowledge of self defense".

Silumkid,

These are generalizations yes, but they are not applied to any one style or school of thought, and yes they are real generalizations that a lot of schools may fall onto in one format or another.

It's not about a you should be training the way I do approach, at least I don't see it as that, its about you should know this certain stuff, and if you train with certain lights off you will not realize that these things are very important to real world self defense and personal growth.

As for the same material stuff, as I stated to Shaolinboxer, IMHO it sounds like he was talking about those who do do not expand their sylabus to include modern methods, principles and tactics.

I am not ranting, these are just my viewpoints, and to me this article has some good but general oil in it, no one is stating this is your school.

[David Jamieson]

sillumkid - good observation.

the original list does come across sounding a lot like a marketing tool for a "new way to workout and gain real fighting info".

That is fine also. But the content is pointed at the just inside the door person.

I do agree with mantis 108's response.

I also do not live in a country where firearms are common. So, maybe in the United states I would need to focus more on small arms use but not here. Although I must admit that I have taking shooting lessons, practical small arms use courses and hold a hunter safety certificate in Canada :D

Kung Fu is ever flexible and adapting, it is by no means stuck in some classical rut as people think because Bruce borrowed another masters phrasology to promote his own arts.

Sillum tiger style today is not what Sillum Tiger style was in the 1700's and Sillum Tiger style of the 1700's was not the same as tiger style of the year 1000 and so on. Many arts follow this pattern.

Anyway, the whole pitch sounds like a sales pitch for yet another "martial art that you should train in because traditional is just plain outdated". But that's just my own subjectivity.

peace

[Silumkid]

Kung Lek,

Why, thank you, sir! :D

Black Jack,

I may have come off a little hostile...it wasn't at you. I'm just froggy today. I also understand it wasn't aimed at any particular style or school. In fact, if it had been aimed at me or my school in particular I would have just laughed and not posted.

I just look at these things as silly. For anyone to say that they know exactly what you should train and how in order to prepare you for "reality" is either very arrogant or purposefully misleading you. It's not possible to train for everything...there is too much out there, too much unpredictability...if there wasn't we'd only need one style and the world would be very boring. I'm all for training hard and "realistically" and training for possibilities, but I am also a big believer in training for adaptation.

One of my favorite kung-fu sayings has always been: "Every technique has a thousand uses". Does this mean sifu has time or wherewithal to show me all "thousand"? Of course not...exploring the technique and making it mine and learning to use it every way I possibly can is my job.

[chingei]

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
. Is it possible then, to train the mind so that the body does not react in such a way that you require such physical endurance to make up for it?

If a fight goes for a few (and I wouldn't bank on that 30 sec. stuff), then the 'mind' ain't gonna stop the 'ass' from gettin' itself kicked.

[Black Jack]

I agree with how it looks like a statement based on marketing, but I think it goes beyond that as no school was mentioned in the article.

Oh and by the way, so criminals obey the no-firearm laws in Canada?

Canadian Criminal One:

"Hey guvnor, lets kick in the door of these nice people and see if we can get some kicks and money".

Canadian Criminal Two:

"That sounds jimmy fresh, mate!"

"Lets me grab my pistol from the back seat first so we have the upper hand with our raping and our robbery."

Canadian Criminal One:

"Eh!"

"We can't use a gun!"

Canadian Criminal Two:

"Why not you ass wipe!"

Canadian Criminal One:

"Because the law say's so you moron!"

Canadian Criminal Two:

"Oh yea, that's right. let me just put this away as we don't want to offend the law, the good criminals we are."


Please excuse the bad accents and terminologies, I get my Canadians, Engilsh and Aussies mixed up.

[Silumkid]

Remove the "mate" and "guvnor", throw in about 15 "eh?" and you're there!

[Black Jack]

Thanks!

I had a feeling my bad guys sounded a bit off the mark:D

[David Jamieson]

jimmy fresh? :rolleyes: hahahaha...

anyway, the use of handguns to commit what our fellow north americans, the americans, would call a felony offense is rare in Canada.

Knives, clubs and barehands are the leading weapons in homicides and serious assaults in our country...unfortunately. :(

So, martial arts training has good reason to flourish here.

peace

[mantis108]

It is very nice to see the thread is going strong with both sides of the arguement presented. I particularly enjoy Shooter and Kung Lek's posts. I am partial to Kung Lek's post because of we are both Canadian (may be Shooter too?) and as such we are facing similar reality. Surely criminal minds function much the same across the board but are the aggressors all criminals? We have to bear in mind that a person who brawl at the local bar isn't the same as the criminal who is out there to rob you for drug money. Most people that I know in Canada own hunting rifles but not hand guns. I guess we could say that Canada isn't as "exciting" and "glamourious as as America. ;)

Concerning martial fitness training, I have always said that it has 6 pillars: Cardio, Strength, flexiablity, Coordination, Impact and Medition. Most sports has the first four. The final 2 are only for or commonly found in martial fitness. So forearm pounding, which is an aspect of ironshirt training, is elementary to traditional Kung Fu, but such essential training is being ridicule by those "modern" arts that lacks the understanding of it. This is not just the McDojo of McKwoon doing; it also includes those MMA/NHB folks. Comments like can you use iron shirt against a gun? Anyway, ignorant is the really problem.

BTW, we have to remember the sensitivities of a particular group namely les Quebequois, so I would suggest when talking about Canadians please put it in French as well (Quebec French would be great but Parisian is fine) . :D ;) A la prochain, mes amis (until next time).

Mantis108

[rogue]

"By weapons I think of practical weapons ..."

Practical could have different meanings under differents conditions. I no longer carry, most of my clients have rules about civilians carrying firearms in the workplace, which means that for a large part of the day I couldn't account for my weapon. Well part of the Smith is in a safety deposit box and the other is locked away else where. It just stopped being practical to have around.

Things like OC spray are only good if you carry it in your hand or can keep it really handy. Same with a knife, ASP or my favorite piece of rebar.

I haven't given up on weapons I'm just looking for ones that meet my current needs and right now it's down to an umbrella or t-ball bat, a short piece of rebar and for fun the Dan Bong (short stick). Hmmmm, I wonder about the defensive uses for a baseball glove.

BTW Blackjack have you checked out the book, "Krav Maga, How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault"?

[Black Jack]

What up Rogue.

No, but I keep seeing the book at the local borders when I go for my weekly lime green soda and a bit o' free magazine reading. :D

Is it any good?

I keep hearing from good sources is that the Krav Maga used in Isreal for the IDF is not what people see here, I would expect some change as their is is more geared for war-time, more stripped down, but I really wonder if what we see here is anything like what is over their.

Good stuff with the improvised weapons, those are really some of the best bets from a legal and often enviromental standpoint, a good fountain pen can be nasty!

Just for laughs I am hoping to get some pics of me up here soon for you guys to see, I am having my first Sayoc Kali private lesson tommorow night and on Saturday I am having a 8 hour group class, if pics are taken I will see if they are going to be posted anywhere.

Cheers.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by rogue
[B
...
Hmmmm, I wonder about the defensive uses for a baseball glove.
...
[/B]

Isn't the leather pretty tough on those things? Might be good for using to block edged weapons.