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View Full Version : Speed of Progression - ideas?



black and blue
04-09-2002, 01:17 AM
Regarding the thread on Serigio and his $, how much time does it take to learn a form, in its entire... err... form? Many people had a problem with the cash Serigio shelled out. Money well spent?

Here's the blurb from Sergio's site regarding time and forms and when, where and why?

So guys, any comments regarding TIME – it might take a lifetime to master WC, but should we be surprised if some someone ‘learns’ a form (ie. The pole) quite quickly? Needless to say, I'm not affiliated to Serigio's WC. Just interested in 'speed of progression'.

Sergio says: "It's funny to see that the opening of the site already generated a violent response from the dutch branch of the EWTO. It is almost as if sifu Frank Schäfer feels attacked. Of course I could (and would like to) ignore the whole thing, but I think the international community (not to mention my students) is expecting something more. I will try to explain some of the accusations he makes in his statement (http://www.wingtsun.nl), especially the ones regarding the most recent developments. Since I don't want a mud fight, I hope sifu Schäfer will not misinterpret this as 'another personal attack' or an attempt to 'steal' his students."

"After ggm Yip Man died, a lot of people claimed to be his successor, the only one with the whole, genuine system, etc. Being one among many, how difficult it was (and is) for ggm Leung Ting to prove that he was indeed the only one. In this age, where pictures and videocameras are common goods, it is a lot easier. As such, my proof is irrefutable."

"Sifu Schäfer doubts whether it's possible to learn so much in a relatively short time (70 lessons). Everyone knows that WT is a relatively simple system with as few moves as possible, "less is more", so why should one takes ages to complete the training? Gm Leung Ting told me, and wrote in his book "Roots of Wing Tsun" (page 165 and 179), that he got 72 (1hour) lessons + one extra evening 2 years later to finish the last part of the dummy. He learned the Bart Cham Dao in 6 days just before ggm Yip Man died. Going to his yee-si-hing(second elder kung fu brother) Kwok Keungs house twice a week, for a period of 9 months, to receive one hour of private tuition from ggm Yip Man resulted in a total of 72 hours."

"Now where is the catch? Gm Leung Ting had already studied WT with SiFu Leung Sheung for 6 years, learning most of the unarmed system. So the lessons with Yip Man were for most part corrections, and not the learning of a whole system. The same thing goes for me: I had already studied WT for 10 years, and finished the unarmed system with Sihing Slavko Truntic, so the lessons with gm Leung Ting were also mostly corrections."

"Why did I 'promote' myself from 2nd Technician to 7th Practician? Before ggm Leung Ting there were no grades at all. One learned and only prowess distinguished the students. So when I had learned the whole WT system I let gm Allan Fong test me to see what level I was worth. As you can see on this site, he awarded me the 7th degree. Let us not forget that ggm Leung Ting gave himself the 10th degree of WT, when he started his own organization."

"Sifu Schäfer's information about Gm Allan Fong is incorrect. He wasn't "kicked out [of the IWTMAA] in 1984", but voluntarily left in around 1988, with an official 6th Degree. by the way Gm Allan Fong finished the whole system in private with Gm Leung Ting the last evening before he left for the Us in 1983 and that's what counts."

"Hopefully this clarifies some of the issues raised by sifu Schäfer, who is always welcome to check my skills, and whom I wish a long and happy life."

"Peace to all,
Sifu Sergio Iadarola"

AdrianUK
04-09-2002, 04:14 AM
This raised something in my mind, do you guys (gals?) think that its more beneficial to move at a faster pace to cover all the system then refine at your own pace or refine as you go and learn slowly ? This comes to mind as sometimes my exposure to next level seems slow

stuartm
04-09-2002, 04:39 AM
The answer is balance - progressing too quickly is bad for you, but I would say too slowly is equally as bad. Example, if you have a student who has clearly got to grips with Darn Chi Sau, then why shouldnt you show them basic Luk Sau? If you have a student who can perform basic step, pak sau, iu ma, then why not show them the basics of the wooden dummy. Holding a student back is different from not allowing them to progress. A good sifu should be able to tell when a student is ready.

There are instances whn you will progress faster. There is a lot to be said for private tuition, the information, knowledge and refinement of techniques that you gain from 1-2-1 teaching is undeniable. The question is are you willing to lay out the cash, and/or is that sifu ripping you off. I had two hours private tuition every weekend for two years as well as training mid-week and the benefits are without doubt - assuming you put in the work.

At the end of the day, progression is an amalgam of student dedication, the guidance of a good sifu and using your own common sense and judgement.

Regards, Stuart

Alpha Dog
04-09-2002, 06:41 AM
Just pay your tuition and learn everything as quickly as possible. then you can teach and make money.

Sihing73
04-09-2002, 09:35 PM
Hi All,

Without getting into a political quagmire here is the what I think.

Most of the "Forms" are easily learned and can be picked up by mostly intelligent people very quickly. The pole form for example can be learned in less than a month or even in as little as two weeks of hard practice. Now as to whether or not you can use that "knolwedge" is something else entirely. There are physical and structural attributes which need far longer to develope.

The key to learning Wing Chun, or any system of combat, is not is learning a series of choreographed movements. Rather it is in understanding the concepts behind the movements of these "forms". This take time.

Progression is in being able to apply the things you have learned adequately. The balance is in keeping the student motivated while not pushing too quickly. I think that one will almost always learn new things when they re-examine the basics whether it be SNT, Chi Sau or the stance.

So my answer is that you could learn all of the forms of the Wing Chun System in less than 1 year. However you would need to spend a lifetime to master any of that knowledge and if you did learn everything in a year you would not KNOW Wing Chun just a series of nice movements.

Peace,

Dave