Do you think this is right?...............

[SifuAbel]

Who here thinks that FFab is a hypocrite?

Do you think it's right for Neal Cameron to hang out at cyberkwoon as tulsawingchun and hang around doing all of his trolling and nobody seems to care that he is who is? And, he actually has convinced people there that it was all a lie? Wasn't he banned for a reason, even if it was temporary?
I don't believe for one second that he's changed.

Is it fair that Royal dragon's post about his new forum get moved and locked down when FFab promotes his site every chance he gets here and on other boards?

Moderation is good, but do you think he goes a bit too far?

[anton]

The moderation on this forum is probly among the best you're likely to find. There's a lot of forum nazis on the net.

And to add to your list of probs with cyberkwoon:

the guy who runs this site http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/dojokaibo
runs around under the handle: "drunken_master" spreading his ignorance, and no-one seems to give a s***.

And you hardly get any quality ma related disscussions there.

[scotty1]

I haven't been on Cyberkwoon for ages. It is a bit dodgy that this Cameron bloke gets banned for one reason and then just let back on. But to be quite honest I quit the 'Kwoon in favour of KFO because the 'Kwoon was a bit serious for me. I still check it out though.

I really couldn't pass too much comment on Ffab, apart from this: he has been helpful to me in the past regarding a lot of queries I've made. Be interesting to see what others think though.

How exactly did you all find out about Neal Cameron?

[red5angel]

Who the hell is Neal Cameron?

[Mr Punch]

Yup. WTF is Neal Cameron? Why did he get banned?

I like this forum. I like the mods. I even like the Texans:rolleyes: I come here because it serves for a bit of light relief and **** good/dodgy information sometimes! I have practised in some very politicised styles and have left them, usually without bad blood. I also like this forum because although occasionally everyone gets a kick in the verbals, generally even 'interesting' styles like PJO's stay around a bit and get a fair trial, and the politics of style and offensiveness don't get off the ground.

There are a lot of very bad martial arts around, and a lot of people who say stupid things (sorry!). Usually they get find out or elected as President.

The answer to the above questions is: Who cares... As long as they don't **** in MY shoes...:mad:

[scotty1]

As far as I'm aware Neal Cameron got convicted as a child molester. How everyone found that out I don't know.

[Badger]

Neal Cameron is a big, fat, disgusting piece of dog crap child molestor.

His kind should not be allowed anywhere near the internet to talk to anyone esp. kids...much less should he be allowed in public to be around our kids or even breath the same air as the rest of us.



Badger

[Mr Punch]

Fair comment.

[HopGar]

I ehard Cameron was convicted of child molestation as well. As for Ffab - he does advertise quite a bit. Too much? You mean like Spam?:D :)

[SifuAbel]

Neal was convicted of indecent exposure. Some at cyberkwoon will argue that this is not a sex offense. But considering that is was at two little girls I beg to differ. He was being investigated for rape and stalking but nothing has come of it yet. I for one don't think this leopard has not changed his spots. I think it is a danger to have guys like this on internet sites that kids visit. I actually was in communication with the party that pressed the stalking charge. This is NOT hearsay.

Those of you that were here when this went down should go over there and give them a piece of your mind.

[Royal Dragon]

I can see him moving ot to the appropreate location, but after having it out with that Neal Cameron sympathiser, I haven't been back to see any new comments.

The thing that bothers me, is FABB admitted to knowing about cameron's history, and I believe he even said he was "Well aware" of his history, but then allows him to post anyway.

I found a conversation where I was actually talking to Cameron before I realized it was him. I deleted my responses to him beacuse it made me sick and nausious feeling.

You know, it's one thing to allow a sicko like that to use your forum BEFORE you know what he is, it's a complete other thing to allow him to use your forum when you DO know, and FABB KNOWS.

[Royal Dragon]

It's NOT locked down, just moved that's all.

The URL is http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forums&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=6623&forum=13&start=0#24761

If anyone wants to sound off on the Neal Cameron issue.

[Badger]

The newspaper article about NC holding the knife to the little girl??

The thread from the Underground where NC is defending pedophiles???

I remember reading them months ago but cant seem to find them again.

Also someone needs to post Camerons picture again so more people will know what that scumbag looks like.


Badger

[Royal Dragon]

It would be good to post that stuff on Cyberkwoon just to show them what they are defending there.

I didn't know he held her at Knife point, I though he just exposed.

[yenhoi]

You guys are wasting alot of time in such a small bull**** issue.

Get off fabbs nuts already.

[Badger]

Indecency with a child is no small issue.

Turning your head & looking the other way & accepting this type of behavier is why this crap even exists.

Those who defend pedophiles are ALMOST as bad as the pedophiles themselves.

Next.


Badger

[Black Jack]

How is making others aware of a known and convicted pervert/sex offender small time bull****, maybe its you who should have his head looked at for thinking it's small time bull****, what are you french, is ffab french, isn't that sort of small time bull**** no big deal over their.

I back up Sifu Abel 110% on this one, I have seen Neal Cameron exposed over their on more than one occasion, and nothing, zero, zip, was done about it, it's f@ckin sick and in bad taste.

IMHO a lot of the people over their are europeanists, leftists, who are of the breed that everyone deserves another chance, if they want to break bread with that type of scumbag then they will reap the wirlwind at some point, maybe ffab will feel a bit different when some young girl or boy looking for martial art lessons or advice gets hooked up with Naplam Neal through the Cyberkwoon website and then gets hurt.

Just ban the c@cksucker.

[scotty1]

I thought the idea of having a sex offenders list is so people can stay informed, and then either steer clear or not based on that information.

If Cameron is posting on a board, not posting his age, and posting under a screen name, how are people to make that decision?

Like Black Jack says, if someone else on Cyberkwoon, say a younger teenager was looking for sparring partners in Tulsa over the net, and they hooked up with Cameron....:confused:

Would any of the people who protect him on CK say anything to the kid? You know, like "Hey X, you know TulsaWingChun is a convicted sex offender, right?"

Don't suppose it matters, there are plenty of people over here (KFO) that would....

Oh yeah, and since when did the term 'Europeanist' refer to a peadophile defender? I'm not picking a fight, I've honestly never heard that term before. I know you Americans are not very keen on certain Euro nations at the moment for various political reasons.

But anyway, back to the topic.... interested to hear what Kung Lek has got to say. Kung Lek, would you ban him, or let him post?

[Black Jack]

Scotty1, no offense to you I hope, its just that's what bill I think a few of those people fall into, by europeanist "I" mean someone who is very liberal, not any one specific nation, though I could point out a few.

Anti-death penalty, anti-firearm/anti-personal self defense, lax on certain serious crimes-as with France on child porn, and in a lot of cases, though I don't think they would admit it, anti-American mindset.

I think that type of sandwhich can build the type of person who is not so against those of Neal Camerons ilk, as in give him a second chance, or "my favorite" what right do we have to show his personal information to everybody.

No offense, you brits are total badasses,:)

[JasBourne]

Tulsa sex offender reg page for Neal:
http://www.tulsapolice.org/sexreg/c/Cameron174542.html

Fella who kicked Neal out of his Tulsa dojo for being a perv:
http://www.realkarate.com/howtojoin.htm

note the phrase in red - that used to be a link to a newspaper clipping about Neal's fun and games, but it's no longer active. However, the article (including a description of his knifepoint kidnap and attempted rape of an 8-year-old) can still be seen as a graphic at this URL:

http://www.angelfire.com/apes/mrpips/cameron.htm

The guy is a slug. :mad:

[Royal Dragon]

I went to cyberkwoon and posted the link to the newspaper article about him.

I would like to see all of you guys go there and sound off as well, especially seing as how they are supporting and defending him after hijackng MY thread to do so!!!!!!

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forums&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=6623&forum=13

[Badger]

Thanks Jas!!!


Royal Dragon- I'm having trouble leaving a message.

Maybe you should leave a link for this thread there so they can see how the higher species think.


Badger

[Black Jack]

Suprised, it looks like it was just us American leftists who were supporting Neal at the moment, with the exception of ffab allowing him to post, make's me feel all warm inside.

Royal,

Screw um, just look how they started on you for posting about your site, a bunch of nazi's, how many of these;) ;) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: does it take to make it rude.

Maybe that clown in CA will let his young kids or nieces or nephews run around unsuperivsed with that buttplug, I bet he would not feel so kind to doing that, I on the other hand would rather see him with a terminal illness, each to ones own.

[Royal Dragon]

Are you registered with Cyberkwoon??

Maybe Fabb locked the post??

All I know as those morons have me really p!$$ed off right now, and I don't want to go there untill I get some things done here as being really angry is NOT conducive to the work I have at hand and I will get all angry if I go back there anytime soon.

I sugjest everyone who has a cyberkwoon account go there and sound off, Sifu Abel and I are the lone voices of reason there right now.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think the issue is what one brings to the table and how one conducts them selves. If nothing was said about the offense it never came up nor was brought up how would one know?

How would anyone’s past not reviled have any bearing on what they posted on a MA forum? If some ones past is reviled (and it was bad) and they posted some good insights or info would this change what was given?




A little surprised by those that feed the fire, I hope they don’t get burned by the method they use.

[SifuAbel]

D My friend,

That's not the point. Those who do know have a resposibility to inform others of a potential predator. Those defending him out of some misbegotten sense of loyalty should realize that he a danger to children.
People are using Megans Law as some sort of crutch in this arguement as to why I should be mentioning this. But what they don't realize is that I am not a Law enforment agency. I am a private citizen exercizing my first amendment rights to freedom of speech. In that freedom I'm calling a spade a spade and letting people know that they've got a very sick individual on their hands. In the end they can think what they want, and they usually do. But I shouldn't be silenced from pointing true, verifiable, facts.

JB,

Thank you, I will not forget this.

[Stacey]

Whomever is perfect, should be the one to shut him down. If you are perfectly blameless in all your actions, stay on, if not, log off and never return.

I don't condone child molestesting. But it stems from a low sense of self worth. Neal Cameron is a bright guy and although I didn't agree with all that he said, I found his knowlege of kung fu/jj to be an asset to this forum.

What a person does and who are a person is not the same.

I don't think he's self worth should be diminished any more than it is. Everyone needs power...if they get it on an internet forum, that better than sticking a noodle in a girls face.


note to cameron if your reading. Other people's perceptions of you are not you, your own sense of self worth is even an illusory cloud. This kind of behavior stems from an imbalance, just like rage or greed, it doens't mean you are a sex offernder. It means you once did that. That is not now, nor must it define the future. You are master of yourself, don't accept anything or beleive anyone. I think you must be very sad/angry. Many of us are. You happened to step on something society is against and may have hurt some people in the process. I forgive you, you can forgive youself and regenerate into Cameron 2.0 Good luck,...your friend ,

Stacy

[red_fists]

While I don't condone pedophiles or child molesting.

I still have to say that they guy is a human being and a Citizen and thus is entitled to a certain right and a certain standard of living.

How soon will the informing everybody result in actual harrasement, slander or similar of the guy.
Look at what happened in England some of those Guys can't get an Apartment, Job and a few have even commited suicide because of similar treatment that you Guys are giving him.

If the Guy was convicted served his sentence, got his councelling and is now a free guy in the Eyes of the Goverment and the law he has been reformed.
If he wasn't look towards your justice/penal system rather than him.

Slandering people and digging up a bad past, IMHO, does not fall under free speech.
Today it is pedophiles, who will be next on your wrath list and where and when will it end?

Just something to ponder about.
P.S.: Nobody has to agree with me.

[Royal Dragon]

You said
"What a person does and who are a person is not the same."

WRONG!!! What a persn does, IS who they are, and WHO they are translates into what they do. This is truth.

[Merryprankster]

Stacey,

That's just WRONG. The strongest indications of who a person is are the things they DO, not what they say or how much they know.

Am I perfect? Nope... but a child molester has gone beyond bad and moved into the realm of a blackheart.

If he can reform and prove himself over time, that's one thing... but not something that he should instantly be granted...

and one last thing--maybe society will be prejudiced with him... maybe it will be "hard" for him to "turn his life around," if nobody will trust him. To that, I say TOUGH. It SHOULD be hard, it should be difficult, it should be ugly and painful and not very nice. He violated the trust of society, and you have to earn that back. It's not easy. If it was, it wouldn't be worth anything.

[Stacey]

Perhaps it is wrong, but thats not what Jesus, Buddah, or Lao Tse would have us believe.

In fact a Taoist sage would trust him anyways.

No one has a black heart, people just get scared. They trust in 10,000 illusions as their false gods...like the belief that you are in some way better than Neal, or that you are seperate from him. These are all lies based on fear.

[Merryprankster]

Spare me the metaphysical love in!

I am quite seperate from Neal, thank you, in that I do not willfully violate others to satisfy my personal desires.

The real lie based on fear is the idea that people can't be evil or have black hearts.

That lie is borne of the fear of being responsible for your actions and standing up to the consequences.

[SifuAbel]

Slander entails something was said that was not true. No one is making this up. Part of his probation was that he not have any unsupervised contact with children, that should include the internet. Lets put it this way, what if it was your child on the internet talking to him? Would that sit comfortably with you? What if the next thing you heard was, "Mom, Dad, I'm going to meet my new friend at the park."

As far as being blameless, I have NEVER exposed myself, kidknapped, molested or mentally abused a child in my LIFE. The whole "he who is without sin should cast the first stone" arguement is misused way too much. And, it was in an attempt to save a life from a mob. That person was guilty of something that she did only to herself and the men she slept with were just as guilty. But no child agrees to being harmed. She was truely repentant and never entered the brothel again. If he is so repentant, he should never enter this place either.

He made his bed and should sleep in it.

[Merryprankster]

Can't say it...must... not.... {groan}

Sigh.

SifuAbel is correct.

Ugh.

:rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

Common ground is shakey at first.

[red_fists]

Sifu Abel.

I got a Child, so it is a very real concern for me.

But I will try to do my best to prevent my Kid getting into contacts with this type of People or any other form of criminal.
And a lot of what I will teach my Kid I was taught by my Parents,
and those lessons & Rules are still valid today.
As for the Internet, my Child will be supervised and properly trained. The Internet will NOT be a Babysitter for me.

Too many people see Video Games, PC-Games, TV and the Internet as a substitue babysitter.

The way I see it if my Child gets in contact with a Child molester I failed as a Parent & Guardian.

Hope you can agree with that.

[Merryprankster]

Red,

That is quite true,

but it doesn't justify Neal's behavior...

It's like blaming thievery on the owner of the car because he didn't lock the doors.

Or blaming the woman who got raped because she was "asking for it," by being a tease and wearing provocative clothing.

[red_fists]

Merry.

I never tried to justify his behavour.

What he did, if he did it, was wrong there is no denying that.

But I also feel too many people lay too much blame on the Criminals rather than admit their own faults and weaknesses.

Child Molesters & other Criminals are nothing new they have been around as long as Civilization I guess and will as long as we and our descendants live.

Anyhuh I said what I wanted to say.

[SifuAbel]

I will agree with that to an extent.

However, you can't protect your child from deception. The internet is not a babysitter, it is a tool for communication. And with this tool monsters can stalk their prey without hindrance. No matter how well you teach your child, that person on the other end has more experience, malice and guile. A child is innocent to the ways of the world and will walk into the unknown.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
I will agree with that to an extent.
No matter how well you teach your child, that person on the other end has more experience, malice and guile. A child is innocent to the ways of the world and will walk into the unknown.

I know that I cannot give it 100% protection.

All I can do is try to give my Kid the skills & Guidance it needs to become a healthy Adult.
I see the Internet as just another Thread to my child's well-being, not more dangerous/different than somebody promising it sweets, toys in the streets and similar methods.

While the Guy might fool my Child, you can be assured that he can't fool me.
Actually, I would prefer if my Child is approached by a potential molester on the Net, rather than playing with friends in the Park as I got more means of control/research than.

Seeya.

[RENEGADE_MONK]

It's interesting I don't see this as a debatable topic the facts speak for itself you don't get arrested/probation and your info posted on a sex offender database if you're innocent.

Some of you guy's that are posting in favor of NC have not been here long enough to have seen most of NC' responses to these charges, most of which were posted on the otherground when
someone brought them up to everyone's attention there similair to what's now happening on Cyberkwoon. He [Neal] has showed no remorse for what he did basically saying how he felt about all women/girls after posting here under the sudonym "Tagatha"


Whether any of you agree with RoyalDragon, Sifu Abel, Merryprankster and others should not be up to debate.

Read the facts!! its simple period

[Royal Dragon]

"But I also feel too many people lay too much blame on the Criminals rather than admit their own faults and weaknesses."

Reply]
This is NUTTS, Criminals deserve blame and persecution. MY flaws, and the flaws of law abiding citizens are generally insignificant in comparisen to the criminal element, and thearfore have nothing to do with this disccusion, which is about a serial sex offender who is obviously guilty of worse crimes that he was caught and convicted for.

Are you actually telling me that my inability to wash sivlerware when I do dishes or the fact that I don't stop and get gas for my car unitll I'm on fumes even remotely compares to a sexual preditor who's fixation is on EIGHT YEAR OLD GIRLS???

Are you telling me that the fact that I f@rt in bed, get lazy with house work or the fact that I'm a wannab health fanatic that eats junk food in any way shape or form compars to a sicko that tried to force himself on an 8 year old girl at KNIFE POINT?!?!?!?!

You are FAR from enlightenment my poor misguided soul, far from it indeed.......................................

[red_fists]

Originally posted by RENEGADE_MONK
It's interesting I don't see this as a debatable topic the facts speak for itself you don't get arrested/probation and your info posted on a sex offender database if you're innocent.

Ahem, I tend to disagree with this statement. Unless you can proove that no Innocent was ever convicted and/or executed in the USA or the rest of the world.

Sorry, I just get a bit anal, with statements like that just to make a point.

Peace.

[RENEGADE_MONK]

Red_Fists

?????
You're missing the point....
Like i said this topic is not debatable!! you're comparing apples to oranges.

[Royal Dragon]

Cameron has made his nature VERY clear on THIS forum and others. He is what he is, and bringing up the fact that innocents have been jailed is irrelevant here. Infact for every "innocent" that goes to jail, 100 go free and unpunished for thier crimes, so stop wasting everyone's time with that comparisen.

The fact remnains that HE is guilty as sin, and it looks very much like he has gotten away with much more than he was punished for.

.

[red_fists]

To All.

If the Guyis is still doing what he was convicted off.
Than stop talking about his behaviour and notify the authorities to get him to stop.

I am sure a call to his probation officer or similar Group will have much better results than posting here and talking about how much you disagree with him.

Don't you agree???

[Stacey]

I read all of his old posts.

What I find interesting about him is that when he was molesting children he described his utter disgust for child molestors and how they should be shown no mercy. He changed to his real name because he "had nothing to hide". He also had nothing in common with "those" people.

Isn't that funny? The very things he detested the most were the things he was. What you hate in him, you hate in yourselves.

This isn't metaphysical mumbo jumbo its the truth. Why is it so convenient to turn to philosophy and religion when you are afraid of death or you want to feel good, but when it actually involves courage in daily living, its not to be taken literally?

He is not luring kids over the net, he never was. I don't know what happened. If you want to play it puritain, then shun him. Notify FFab and leave it at that, there is no reason to unleash your hate on him. Power goes in a pecking order and some kid on your street might have to pet Mr. Winky thanks to the anger your feeding Neal. Think about that before you start your Humarabic judements. You think your nothing like him? Your lying to yourself like he was. Maybe your not off balance, but we all have that potential. Many people aren't like that until they go off to war, or start living in fear, rather than love and acceptance. I am not wishy washy, I don't beleive "everyone is right" He is off balance...no question, but that doesn't mean he is deserving of our hatred. I believe everyone who is throwing rocks is wrong. There is no difference between this and Jesus w/ the prostitute. Its not a tired parable, its the tricky part of christianity that most people don't have the balls to apply in real life. We can do better than this.

[Royal Dragon]

You said
"You think your nothing like him? Your lying to yourself like he was"

"I" say
You wish!! I am NOT like Neal Cameronl and "I" am NOT capable of EVER being like him, even in the slightest!!! You have NO frik'n clue as to WHAT I am like, and are not qualified to tell me I am like some sick perverted psyco.

Not everyne is a weak minded as you, not every one has the urges that you seem to think they do.

Those like Neal are NOT like the rest of us, and VERY few people are capable of even THINKING the things he has actually done.

How DARE YOU tell me I'm lying to myself about my own nature!!!

[guohuen]

Pedophiles almost never stop their predatory behavior. They have a less than 5% recovery rate with treatment. BTW to the creature that calls itself stacey. Your a blithering idiot.

[Black Jack]

Stacy with a ****, you don't have a f@ckin clue.

First of all we are not all christians here, so that claptrap does not run deep for everybody, second and foremost people have the right, no the responsibility to protect themselves from predators, be they sexual, physical, mental or financial, your stated friend Neal Cameron, falls into three of these categories.

He has stated on the underground, that their is nothing wrong with child porn, does that sound like a sane person to you, he now claims to have found Jesus and is cured of his sins, this is the biggest line used by caught and convicted criminals, I am not pc, nor am I ever going to be pc about this, Neal, you and all of his supporting cronies need a lobotemy, you are incorrigible, disgusting, a person who supports predators and not the vicitims, from now to the day she dies this little girl will have serious problems, these things even through therapy may never be fixed, her life was affected by the actions of a twisted and selfish piece of $hit.

As simply and as frank as I can muster--------F@UCK ALL OF YOU who support him.

This is not up for debate.

[Stacey]

seems I have struck a chord.

Wanting to have sex with children may not be your vice, but you have others. The idea of seperation is evil, the lie your ego tells you is that you are better...or worse than another person. Your human nature is the same as neals, just as your body is the same. Metaphorically you may get the flu quickly and often, where he might have some skin disease, your bodies and minds funcion the same way and you are both responsible for the actions that your imbalances and sicknesses cause. We all are. Child molestation is a way of spreading that sickness. Just as hatred is a way of spreading sickness and causing imbalance.

[Black Jack]

Listen you trans-gender twat rag.

Don't you ever even imply that having sex with children may not be my vice, their is no MAY in that sentance with me you sick freak, that is unless you want to meet the poster on the other side of this computer, more than not you are Neal Cameron, you need help Stacy, serious f@ucking help, with your attitude one of these days your bull**** could come back to haunt you, maybe at the end of some fathers claw hammer.

People in the real world are not always sane people, sprout this $hit off in a bar somewhere and you could be in trouble, though who is to say that would be a bad thing.

Child predator supporter.

[Stacey]

I don't support hatred of any form.

Just like having an outgroup...and "other" that we can bestow our own evils....like Hitler did with the Jews. Like Westerners do with the Mid East..its called Orientalism.

You give "them" all the evils and suddenly you are cleansed and by definition better.

If you percieve me as something ugly, thats fine, I don't take it personally, that is your problem, that is something you need to work with before you turn into what you hate.


I support him as a person as I support whomever blackjack is. I don't support seperatism or child molestation, its a hatred that only spreads. Us vs them...our lineage vs yours. Its nonsense.

[JasBourne]

Wow, you're just so pure and above all this crap, I'm surprised you haven't already shucked this mortal coil and ascended into Nirvana...

So, is this another one of your psychological experiments into online interaction? You know, like pretending to be a girl and watching all the little lab mice scurry hither and yon as you press their little rodent buttons? Nah, don't answer, I don't really give a rat's heinie.

Neal is a sick phuck. He found Jeebus and kid porn, praise the lard. Stick around long enough, watch him pop his scummy troll head in here yet again (*cough*jojitsu*cough*Tathagata*cough*etc*), listen to him be above it all and watch him press buttons on the little people, kind of like, ummmm... just exactly like.... heh... whaddaya know. Howya doin, perv.

[Stacey]

i am not Neal. I stand by what I say...I'm not better..your right jas, I played with people to learn about human nature...I have my other vices too...Its not that I'm holy, I can just see through fear.

[ewallace]

No need to get upset. Karma does have a nasty sense of humor. Neal and the kind will get theirs. Most likely in the form of having their back against the window during a storm when a tree breaks thru.

[Mr Punch]

This is a very physical case. Stacey, I don't care who you are or what your history is, it's none of my business unless you care to share it with me, and I agree to that sharing. BUT if you believe this man deserves only some kind of metaphysical advice, then you are also unbalanced.

He should be locked up. Maybe he has a metaphysical imbalance, maybe he has a mental/chemical imbalance... whatever. What he did was a physical transgression. He should still be locked up still. The recidivism rate is too high in child abusers to risk being wrong about this.

He should certainly not have access to the internet. Maybe he will change his predation method. Maybe he won't. ONE MORE CHILD IS TOO MUCH OF A RISK. Unfortunately, due to a weak 'justice' system, he is out.

And yes, we use labels like "child abuser" to distinguish them from us. That is because we are different! Everybody has dark feelings/thoughts etc, but what separates us is JUST THAT we don't make them a physical reality, and from that the degree of our 'wrong-thinking'. Yes, we are all from the same 'source', but so are oil and plastic: very very different in the way they 'behave'.

I'm not interested in whether you think reality is physical, or whether you think physical actions happen in reality: are you going to tell some damaged child that his/her pain is not real? You are the one hiding behind trite quasi-religious bull. All of your tripe about being the same is just as simply as crap about afterlife or karma, a convenient mechanism for trying to avoid responsibility for your actions.

Redfists: I agree with your philosophy; it's very fair and right. Unfortunately, I still think it's too much of a risk that this man was let out at all. There should be no second chances with other people's lives. Unfortunately, as I said, the justice system has made what should have happened to this man somewhat theoretical, but we can still act in an appropriate, responsible way, and warn others of his person.

Black Jack: I don't think he should be lobotomised. I think he should be receiving treatment. I know it's expensive but hear me out: I think the focus of treatment should be changed from some risky 'curative' process to finding out why he became what he became, as a possible preventative/detection measure for other potential abusers. What price the safety of any kid?

Wake up Stacey. This man should not be here.

[scotty1]

Debating morals is kind of irrelevant when faced with this fact:

"Part of his probation was that he not have any unsupervised contact with children, that should include the internet. "

True. That is FACT. And therefore surely Fab is under a legal responsibility to ban him form his forum. If the worst happened, and it happened becuase Neal had met a kid through Fab's forum, would Fab be held responsible through his awareness of Neal's crimes?

I know someone who was flashed and masturbated at when they were a young teenager, the same age as the girls in Neal's case. It took them years to get over that. It is more disturbing than it sounds. Someone like Cameron, who took away someones rights by forcing himself on them, should have certain rights removed, along with the offending member.

Stacey - you have exhibited strange behaviour on this forum in the past on this forum, and you're doing it again.

Kung Lek, as a moderator, no comment? You have reasonable, well informed arguments, I would be interested to hear them. Is he allowed on KFO?

[Budokan]

What goes around comes around. Neal and other sick f*cks like him will someday get what they deserve.

And so will other trans-gender losers like Stacey, BoxerChick and other t*rd-headed sh*t-sucking freaks.

[Badger]

There is 1 cure for pedophiles. Its called a lead injection.

1 shot & they never molest again.



People who defend child-molestors are from a totally different species than I am from....they need to go back to the Planet of the Apes.

[Merryprankster]

Stacey--

You picked the wrong person to discuss philosophy as a "crutch," with.

First, my faith is as agnostic as it gets, so I'm not even comforted by the idea of YES or NO absolutes when it comes to a higher power. That means I deal with humanity strictly on its own.

Secondly, you yourself brought philosophers and religious figures to bear--that's not what Jesus, Buddha, or Lao Tze would say, as I recall.

Third, let me explain WHY your point of view is cowardice borne of fear of accountability: You wrote


No one has a black heart, people just get scared. They trust in 10,000 illusions as their false gods...like the belief that you are in some way better than Neal, or that you are seperate from him. These are all lies based on fear.

This point of view, at its base level, EXCUSES people for their actions. It blames their EVIL actions on:

1. fear (No one has a black heart, people just get scared.)
2. faith or misinterpretation of a higher power (...trust in 10000 illusions as their false gods)
3. human inseperability (...like the belief that you are...better...or that you are seperate from him.)

It does this in the following manner:

point 1--fear makes us all do things sometimes that we are not proud of or that we regret. Because of this, a person is held less responsible than they would be otherwise. Bollocks. I judge a man by his actions in his most trying moments, and his treatment of others in day to day life. For neal, his trying moments were resisting the urge to molest children. He has been tried by his own willpower and found wanting.

point 2--this one is too easy. When you attribute your actions to following the will of the "Lord," combined with fear and desperation, you get suicide bombers. Despite their despondancy, does that JUSTIFY their actions? The answer is no.

point 3--by insisting that we are all somehow morally equivalent, the implication is that we should judge Neal less harshly because we are all capable of the same thing. As individuals, however, we are all morally distinct. I am not Neal's moral equivalent, and neither are you. Sorry. We're BETTER than that.

While I'm at it, why don't I address another of the little cliches you tossed out there "What you hate in him, you hate in yourselves."

If that's true, then we hate avarice, and evil, and selfishness, and casual disregard for others, destruction (as opposed to gradual loss) of a child's innocence, and a host of other human impulses, that, when acted upon, rip the fabric of society apart and destroy human happiness--for both the object and the subject.

If we hate them, it's because we see that humanity can choose better things for itself than molesting children.

[Royal Dragon]

VERY well said!!!!!:cool:

[vingtsunstudent]

edited for language.

[KC Elbows]

Well, not to be the voice of reason on this, but here's my take on this(not that anyone asked):

-pedophiles have an obvious mental disorder, and should be treated, just as others with mental disorders should have access to treatment.

-Pedophilia has a high enough recidivism(is that a word?) to assume that, presently, we do not know a therapy that works to cure them.

-Children deserve protection from predators of all types at all costs.

-Individuals who have served their sentences deserve the right to take part in society as free people again, and should be able to resume their constitutional rights when their time is served.

HOWEVER:

-Seeing as modern therapy is insufficient to counsel the pedophile, in order to protect innocent children at this time, there is no other clear choice other than to suspend certain rights of those convicted of pedophilia in a way that prevents their contact with children until such a day that adequate therapy is created, tested, and proven consistently successful in correcting their mental problems.

There. What's so hard about sitting on the fence?

In this case, seeing as how the individual in question was convicted, and is required to announce his status, he should definitely not be given free reign on forums that children may frequent.

To those who don't see the danger on a specifically martial forum, remember that members on some forums can PM each other without other member's knowledge. Also, many threads involve members geographically close to each other meeting(Austin members-time to feed is an example, though I doubt Neal would show for THAT lunch).

Slightly off-topic, but it always annoys me when people say that pedophiles/serial killers/serial rapists, etc., are NOT insane. In the legal sense, they are not, but insanity is not a legal term alone. Anyone who wants to relate to children sexually, or rape, or kill people and keep their toenails, is definitely NOT sane.

That's my rant for the day. Be thankful that I didn't rhyme it.

[Asia]

Abel and the rest,


As far as Ffab stand on NOT banning "TulsaWingChun" I can understand. As strange is at it may seem it is actually very difficult to verify who the person posting is. Seriously can anyone of you prove who I am through the internet? NO you can't and I dare you to try. The only way you will find any REAL info on me is if I give out that info. I do it quite a bit the time (Ralek anyone!). Unless you are willing to do so REAL indepth searching it is VERY difficult to verify the person posting on a forum. Now I am NOT defending 'TulsaWingChun' (far from it), remember I am the one who picked up the gauntlet he threw down at CK and I am VERY willing to crush him given the oppurtunity. But Ffab I will defend because it is HIS site and I think he runs it quite well, and I can voice my opinion just like anyone else. If you look at 'TulsaWingChun's 'Cry for help thread' you see ffab handled that quite well with both pple. Recently "TulsaWingChun" hasn't done anything that warrants being banned by the sites rules so I can see him NOT being banned. "TulsaWingChun" had told me that he was MARRIED in his emails if he IS Neal then I truly feel for his family. He has never called himself Neal in his emails to me.

[Royal Dragon]

So when are you guys going to go to Cyberkwoon and sound off?

That's where it all started (This time anyway)

Here's the link to my conversation

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forums&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=6623&forum=13&17

See how it started all innocent, and then just blew up??
It was "Suposed" to be about a promo for my forum, NOT a discussion about Neal Cameron, but now that it is, I'd like to see some more with a commonsense view posting to that topic on cyberkwoon.

Thanks guys,

RD

[KC Elbows]

Asia,
To an extent, I agree with you. However, the forum's responsibilities may not end with their own rules. However, not being familiar with the entire situation, I won't go into it in any depth, as I may not be understanding what is actually taking place over there clearly.

However, if the mods know that it is Neal, then they are entirely within their rights to alert all forum members of his status, and would open themselves to severe penalties if something did occur that began on their forum.

[Royal Dragon]

Fabb admited to it o the forum

[Asia]

RD,

I am see how you thread got hijacked but "smogmax" does make a good point. You and Abel say that Neal Cameron "molested" a child, a very BAD crime, but the only link I have seen to him is about "exposing himself" Now I did go snooping and got more particualrs to Jospeh Neal Cameron. The kidnapping charges were dismissed pending "further investigation" so by law we can't say he did this because he hasn't been charged. (Correct me if I am wrong)


KC Eblows,


Although I agree that if a sex offender is on the forum and it is proven then, in good tatse, the memebers should be alerted. But show me one INTERNATIONAL law that says this HAS to be done. Ffab called TWC "Neal" before but he is not 100% who the guy is. But I will leave that to Ffab.

[Royal Dragon]

But knowing how the law works in this country, and after reading the news paper article, it's pretty clear what has happened.

Also, when one pulls thier "Weapon" one is prepared to use it. At best we are looking at a circumstantial definition here. The nature of the creature remains.

[David Jamieson]

it is impossible to know exactly who is on the other end of a public forum unless they truthfully admit their identity.

I can go to a library, set up an email account with hotmail or netscape or yahoo et al and then use that e-mail address to make an account for my self at a public forum and then i can post whatever i want.

so, regardless of our opinions on the matter and how we as individuals see the human condition, this forum is governed in its content by YOU the posters here, by the rules of use and of course by the admins and mods for the forums at this site. This structure is pretty much how it goes in all places like this.

I can assure you that the person in question is not the only predator lurking on the internet.

I can also assure you that swearing like a blue streak all over this forum will not contribute a single lick to the stamping out of deviancy from the norm in any society in any timeline. it also has little to do with Kung fu beyond the examination of moral character of one who claims to practice martial arts.

A singular fixation on the person in question and their character in my own opinion is a waste of time.

Caveat Emptor when dealing with others in cyberspace

peace

[JasBourne]

Imagine for a moment:

You are an eight-year-old girl, about 4' 2", around 70 lbs. You answer the door at your house, and a 5'10', 245 pound man 20 years older than you drags you out, puts a knife to your throat, tells you be quiet or he will hurt you, and tries to shove "Mr. Happy" into your mouth. You scream in absolute terror, and the rapist loses his nerve and makes a run for it. You are scared and feel dirty. Later, strangers ask you to tell them what happened, over and over again. Some of them ask questions in a way that makes it seem like maybe it was your fault ("Did you say no? Why not? Did you struggle? Why not?"). Your parents and other grownups act funny around you.

Eventually, you find yourself in a room full of strangers, all looking right at you, and they ask you to tell them all in detail about what happened yet again. One person hammers away at you about whether you are absolutely positively certain the man who hurt you is the guy sitting at the table. You don't want to look at the man, he scares you, all of this scares you very badly. You don't know what to think anymore, what the right answer is. You agree that maybe you aren't sure who your attacker is. The perpetrator walks, free to offend again.

This is why we now allow children to testify on tape instead of open court. The trauma of open proceedings is almost always overwhelming to small children, damaging them further, and making their testimony unreliable. We're all so bloody worried about Neal Cameron's rights. We seem less concerned about that child, and the other children he damaged. He took away their rights. We have no cure for child molesters in this society. Statistics prove beyond any shadow of doubt that by the time a molester is apprehended, they have been offending for some time previous, and if released, will offend again. Statistics also show that the level of offense will escalate. From flashing, to kidnap/rape, to murder? At what point do we put a "danger" sign around the necks of these animals?

All humans fall into subconscious patterns of communication. It is not beyond reason to be able to ascertain, after a period of continual communication, someone's identity online to a fairly accurate degree, especially if such a person has been previously identified. Someone mentioned karma. A manifestation of karma is being shunned by society for your misdeeds. I shun garbage like Cameron, and will point to him and others like him, saying "there he is" wherever he shows himself, online or off.

[KC Elbows]

"I can go to a library, set up an email account with hotmail or netscape or yahoo et al and then use that e-mail address to make an account for my self at a public forum and then i can post whatever i want."

:D

[KC Elbows]

Asia,
I agree, identity is a fuzzy thing here, and law is relative on the internet. HOWEVER, in this case, the person in question is in the US, and must abide by its laws, regardless of the laws of any other surfer's nation.

However, if RD or Abel were able(hehehe) to confirm that NC was not supposed to be on the internet, then they should not only contact the authorities, but it should be any moderator's responsibility to stop such contact. However, in ffab's case, this would just mean that this one poster would be banned, and would come back as a new member under another IP address, at which point ffab would not even know who it was.

[Badger]

.....& I am one of the goodguys.

[Asia]

JasBourne,

The point that I and others were trying to make is that how do YOU Know that the person posting IS NEAL? You DON'T! You can not be 100% sure. If you were faced with Neal in the flesh the by all means give the ******* his due. Now serious consider the medium in which these accusations are being presented.

[JasBourne]

No one can be 100% sure about someone's identity under any circumstances. Even DNA testing is not 100% foolproof. My point is that we seem pretty happy to push it all under the rug because "we can't be 100% sure", and "it was never proven in court". I don't need to step in dog poop to recognize it for what it is. I most certainly won't pretend I don't smell it when I do.

[Asia]

However, if RD or Abel were able(hehehe) to confirm that NC was not supposed to be on the internet, then they should not only contact the authorities, but it should be any moderator's responsibility to stop such contact

You hit the biggest issue there is. IF it can be proven that TWC = Neal Cameron and Neal is NOT suppose to be on the internet then by all means contact the authorities and ban him.


and would come back as a new member under another IP address, at which point ffab would not even know who it was

Another good point.

JB,


I don't need to step in dog poop to recognize it for what it is. I most certainly won't pretend I don't smell it when I do.

Er If you KNOW what something is then you don't have to "step in it" I am not happy to sweep it under the rug. The FACT is I want to pple to know that you can't prove anything in this arena therefore saying things like, "He DID this.." or "He DID that.." or "I know he DID.." is a hard thing to prove. Right now I can accuse YOU of any offense and post links to sites that post someone who has been charged with the crime. NOW YOU will have suspicion cast on you and it ISN'T TRUE. Caught what I am getting at? I have NO symphaty for anyone who violates a child, being a father of one and one on the way, I could not trust myself in dealing with a child molestor so DON'T assume I am defending anyone who IS guilty of this crime. This is to let you know with the info presented on the forums mentioned is NOT adequate in saying TWC IS Neal.

[ewallace]

Unless you are a seasoned hacker, you can easily be caught. If the forum is tracking IPs, they can find out who the service provider is, and that service provider can tell which one of their users had that ip address at that certain time. If there is a reasonable concern the ISP will most likely cancel the user's account and contact local authorities if the behavior is of an illegal nature. The ISP most likely will not give out the user's info to anyone aside from law enforcement, so we may not ever know, but they will definitely not allow that kind of crap to continue.

[SifuAbel]

Asia,

First of all read the article that jas has provided a link for. It clearly states that he is not to have unsupervised contact with children for the length of his probation. That SHOULD include the internet. There was a big bust not three weeks ago of kiddie porn rings and known sex offenders cruising the internet.

Second of all he established and admitted that he was neal some time ago on cyberkwoon. Look it up. He has not denied that he is neal and he has made many excuses for his past actions.

WAKE... UP...!!

[Asia]

ewallace,

I can change my IP in a matter of secconds!!!! I can even keep it it hidden as well. Like most pple in the work place I do much of my surfing at work. What do I do at work? I and the SA!!!! I have 6 IP pools in which I can jump to at ANYTIME. Win2K does not require a restart when changing network settings like Win9x or NT. And there is a variety of software that will either hide your IP or send out a 'false one' and most of these type of software is FREE!! (I even wrote one of them.) I do not consider myself a hacker in anyform.

[Asia]

ABEL,

REREAD AND COMPREHEND!!!


I really don't give a **** about NEAL (except for heckling him for giving excuse for not meeting my challenge) If you are so **** sure that this is guy shouldn't be around why haven't you pursued further action? Look up MY response on learning about Neal. It went something like, "Hey TWC if that is really you in the picture you got a lot of work to do before even thinking of taking me on." I am NOT a NEAL supporter! The only point I stick by is that NOONE is whoe they appear to be! I can admit to being the Lindburg baby but how can anyone prove me wrong? (other than common sense)

I am fully aware about pple cruising the internet in preying on childeren. Two weeks ago I was involved in building a case against a soldier brought up on charges of child porn and other things. My job was to RECOVER the files used to make this case. The biggest point make was PROVING that the individual involved was the one logged on and surfing the net. EVEN with his PERSONAL computer this had to be proven. Given the type of forum we are engaged in it would be a hard sell (but not impossible) to say this guy is who he is.

[SifuAbel]

Baka!

Are you calling me a cow? Better not.



I'm not saying that you are a neal supporter. I know he's done the same threatening BS job he does everywhere else. And, I know he has crossed words with you many times. The similarities might not stand up in a court of law. But I'm not a public officer making charges.

I'm a private citizen informing others that the guy, Neal or otherwise someone posing as neal, has done what he has done; so beware. If this guy isn't neal then he should banned anyway for being the ULTIMATE DISGUSTING TROLL.

The only way I see that I can "take action" is to inform people of Neal's past. Whether or not this guy is neal is almost moot now. If he is neal then he deserves the ridicule he's getting. If he isn't neal and mearly someone posing as neal he deserves it anyway for being the ULTIMATE DISGUSTING TROLL.

[Asia]

I truly understand you doing what you feel is your civic duty. I am even thankful that there are pple like you how feel this way. I just want to call to your attention that you have to make sure you KNOW the person you are accusing is the right one and on the internet that is not easily done. He could easily file a lawsuit based on YOUR accusation on the internet. (Ask MC Busman or Don Cuningham about such thinks) The problem is for him to do so he would have to reveal himself therefore I see no danger in this. If the person in question is NOT Neal then I agree that he is on disgusting troll.



(I still called you an Idiot and I don't think you are man enough to make anything out of it. If so find me on the internet and come and prove that you are not.:p )

Anyways is ti 1am here and I need to go to bed. Enough of this for tonight.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Asia
Re: BAKA no imi wa idiot/dummy etc. (Yeah I said it! Whatcha gonna do about it?)

Ok here's one for you "No seas Come mierda" there translate that one and do something about it. :p


Slander can only be charged if something is said that is not true. I'm calling NEAL on this one. If this guy is posing as neal then I can't be charged with anything against an impersonator. As far as I knew this was neal and he didn't deny it. Case closed.

[red_fists]

One thing about Computers and the Internet.

And I am talking from experience here, since I used to do IT-security at one of my Companies.
All you can do is track the logged in Person to a physical terminal, but you CANNOT look outside the hardware to see who is physically sitting there.
Unless they use fingerprint verification or similar as part of the Logon procedure.

All you can see is the User and which physical terminal was used.

In one case we had a fraud at the Company, but knew that the owner of the "Logon" that the fraud was commited with was in Hospital at that time.

Took us 3 months to track the real culprit.

And yes, you can track somebody even if they hide their IP or give a false IP.
Takes time and effort but it can be done, problem is that it is not worth it unless a big stake is involved.

Just some Info.

[ffab@cyberkwoon.]

This link, an "official" CK position (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forums&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=6613&forum=12)

I understand the concerns and worries of many ppl.
This is a tough issue when we look at it on the broader perspective, however, in the case originating this thread, I think it is a pretty simple and clear situation.

[Stacey]

How exactly will hating Neal Cameron help anything? No seriously...how do you propose that by loathing him, we will make happier families and more loving communities?

We can start by hating him, then it can affect our liver, then we can have internal problems, be quicker to lash out, cut the guy off on the freeway and continue like a stack of dominoes.

We could also love and forgive him, not cling to it, protect the children out of love for them, and encourage Neal to get help and support him in his healing. I don't care if only 5 percent recover 58 percent of statistics are made up on the spot...or is it 79 percent?

Terrible things have happenend to me to, but I don't hate one person that did these things to me. I understand. I understand that they were continuing cycles of violence. They were responsible, I will not trust them as long as they remain askew, but I love them and move on. maybe they will someday straighten out to live wholesome live with long term kindness, then I accept them as nothing has been done wrong.

This is not religion, not even philosophy, this is efficiency in living.

[Water Dragon]

Pedophiles were generally molested as children.

Pedophiles generally molest multiple children before they are caught.

Each one of those children now have a greater chance of becoming a pedophile themself.

These numbers will grow at an exponential rate.

Pedophiles grow like a cancer in society and should be cut out, just like any other disease.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, I have always respected you, and I think your an alright guy from what I know of you. But your reputation as a f Moderation Natzi preceeds you, are you trying to shake that rep by allowing a known sexual preditor continue to use your forum??

By reading that post made in the first thread, it sounds like you've positively IDed TWC as Neal Cameron. How in good concience can you allow such a creature to use your facilitys?? For me, I couldn't sleep with the knowledge someone on THAT scale is useing and enjoying a service "I" am providing. I would have the creepy crawlys ever time I saw his name on a post.

My own sense of deacency would force me to delete and ban him just because I couldn't stand a creature like that benifting from me or my work in any way shape or form.

How are you sleeping knowng your aiding such a sicko in his persuites and hobbys? How can you sleep knowing his use of your facilitys are giving him fun and enjoyment??

Like I said, if it was me, I'd ban him just because the knowledge of him would gross me out so much I'd be sick every time I though of it if I didn't.

[JasBourne]

It's a shame that the Otherground forum has been renovated, there doesn't seem to be any way to get at the threads Neal was defending his love of child pornography on.

Just like the threads on KFO when he talked openly about raping girls, those threads disappeared with the site upgrade last year. My memory is quite long. Neal Cameron is a thoroughly sick phuck, and he's been playing his games for quite a while now.

:mad:

[Royal Dragon]

I bet chya someone in the othergrounds Admin department may have saved that stuuf, "Just in case".

Maybe someone should drop them an E-Mail????

[Fighter]

I'm new here and already I don't like this Neal guy. Neal says he found Jesus uh? If he really believed in the teachings of Jesus Christ he would have never did what he did in the first place. Those type of people just make the true believers look bad. I hope Neal knows God would never forgive him for what he has done. God only forgives HUMANS who have REMORSE for what they have done and Neal is not human because humans don't do that to children and to top it off, he shows NO REMORSE on his part. That sickens me. Your ass is going to hell Neal, because that's where you belong. Your lucky your not in prison, the inmates would have klled you by now. You could never commit another sex crime again in your life, but it doesn't mean you changed because chances are, you STILL have thoughts of commiting those unspeakable acts against children. Sick people like you never change, you will always have those sick thoughts running in your head.

[Stacey]

Yeah, the whole no remorse thing doesn't look good for him.....Hey, he's Catholic, maybe he would like to make a move from laety to priesthood.

Probably getting jackhammered over the alter is what messed him up in the first place. A lot of people had similar situations, yet they don't continue the cycle.

Hmmm. I think he should get a forced vision quest. Leave him on an island, a dessert island..pick him up in a week. He needs surgery, medication, and confinement. He's capable of change, it just might take a lot of work on HIS part. If that doens't work...

kill him, better luck next life.

[NorthernMantis]

Hmm...if my memory serves correct I think neal admitted that he had child porn on his computer. Anways wether Neal deserves a second chance or not people need to be informed, true it may not be fair for him at times to be labeled as a sicko but those are the consequences.

[NorthernMantis]

I wasn't sure what to beleive until I saw it, they're defending that sick freak. I'm sorry Ffab but your forum just plain stinks and so do the others who defend him. Martial virtue is one thing but they're taking things over the extrreme. Kindness and forgivess is one thing but to overlook what's obvious is another. Haven't these people heard of trying to protect others?

[OdderMensch]

has anyone stoped to consider that none of this would have happened if we just all stoped wearing pants?

Or does anyone know the name of the Roman Senator that was beaten to death by his fellows for merely suggesting that they stop haveing sex with children?


on a more serious note - C-sharp!

I am able to make light of this as humor is one of my defense mechanisms.

[Fighter]

They are defending him, what the hell is wrong with people nowadays? I'm a young father and I would **** near kill the guy if he did that to my daugher. If you defend a monster like that, your just as bad as they are. He won't give no sympathy with me. With the links Jasbourne provided, he did it more than once for Christ's sake! Do these people have any morals? I bet they would be singing a different tune if that happened to one of there kids. Holding a defenseless little girl at knifepoint and telling her to perform oral sex on you is UNFORGIVEABLE!!!!!! People are sickos if they defend him. It makes me sick to my stomach that people are actually defending this guy.

[Black Jack]

IMHO its the people and their ignorant viewpoints on how we should love the criminal, on how we can fix the criminal without violence, on how we can make the criminal a better person that allows these people to be criminals anyway.

Somebody have mercy that we might care for the victim and the criminal might get his feelings hurt, or that his rights as a human being, which IMO ceased to exist once he went on the course of his nefarious actions, fail to get accounted for.

People like this can not be cured or fixed. The facts state the case on this matter.

I believe their should be a death penalty for convicted child molestors and serial rapists, at the very least chemical castration and life imprisonment, but the norm should be execution.

[Royal Dragon]

Your view is somewhat extreme, but I find myself in 100% agrrement.

Best course, install a soft lead cranial implant in the frontal lobe.

[red_fists]

Suggestion.

If you don't like the Justice system in your Country, why don't you change it to islamic justice system or similar.
But I guess you would still be complaining than.

If you don't like the system vote or fight to get it changed.
Venting rage and opinions on an online board is changing nothing and is not what this Board is all about.

Let's get back to discussing Chinese Martial Arts.

It think it is time that some Moderators step in here.

[Fighter]

I agree Black Jack. Death penalty to ALL child molestors and rapists. Let God sort it out after they're dead. People should think about the feelings of the VICTIMS, not the criminals. Screw them, they don't deserve to be on this planet any longer. I think the family members of the victims should get a crack at these sickos.

[Royal Dragon]

I second that motion

[Fighter]

O.K red fists, I'll stop my venting. But it ****es me off when people defend guys like him.

[red_fists]

Fighter.

Thanks, and welcome to the Board.

[Stacey]

out of curiousity? What constitutes child porn?

It is a girl under 18 yrs old? What about in other countries where the age of consent is 14. Does this mean a 22 year old man can legally have sex with her, but not take a picture of it?

How about a 15 year old looking at a picture of another 15 year old? Lets face it, 15 year olds are hot. Firm bodies. I'm no child perv, thats pure biology.

In many traditional cultures, and even America 100 years ago, 14 was Marriage age, now its a one way ticket to prison. This seems like cultural relativism.

personally, I can tell a 15 year old is hot. 14, they are still a little weird looking.


From a biological standpoint, this is how men rate women.


1. specific hip to waist ratio curvature- Kids have none whatsoever
2. Breasts, deep voice, sexual characteristics-none...
3. kindness and parental instincts- Not even. They are completely self centered and can't take care of themselves.


I guess there is no explaining it. I love children, I just dont' get excited when I see them playing 4 square. Seems to make as much sense as trying to have sex with a tree or a fish. Its not sick as much as its rediculous.

any thoughts? And yes I stand by the fact that 15 year olds are sexy. Fire at will.

[Fighter]

Thank you for welcoming me red_fists. Hey Royal Dragon, me and you think alike. Family members of the victims should get a crack at these people.

[vingtsunstudent]

i was edited for langauge as i have 2 children & couldn't believe what i was reading, my anger got to me & i swore a lot, funny that i can't swear but people can defend these sick pieces of garbage.
as i said, the only cure for these poeple is sudden death & if anyone ever even looked like touching my children i would have no regrets.
i would also love for any of you who try to justify what they do to visit or look at a child whos innocence has been taken from them by one of these vile creatures, besides that i think you need a good flogging for standing up for this scum.
get as interlectual as you like with me, see if i care.
any day of the week i would take the scum & there vioces of reason & put your genitals in a vice & turn it til' they explode.
DO ANY OF YOU HAVE CHILDREN- DO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
get a bit of reality in your lives, they are the lowest of scum & are not look upon even by our most dreaded criminals, who generally do their best to do the right thing by ending the lives of child molestors once they get to prison.
again i say f*** him & anyone who supports him.
vts

[Royal Dragon]

Family members of the victims should get a crack at these people.


DAaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmm Straight!!!


Oh and sweet heart, 15 year olds are NOT hot when your over .......oh let say......................17 at the oldest!!!!

Unless your neal. Are you Neal????? I bet you are!!

[Stacey]

For the record..I support Neal as a human 100 percent.

Like a dog I once had...I loved her, but when she killed a sheep and got a taste for blood we had to put her down. I loved her, I still do, but she had to pay for her crime to ensure the safety of the neighbor's flock.

[Fighter]

Yes vingtsunstudent, the people who defend scum like that have no children like we do.

[Royal Dragon]

Right over the side of a cliff!!!!!!

[Merryprankster]

Stacey--

To clarify--I don't hate Neal. I don't hate Neal because Neal has done nothing to me or anybody I care about. I hate the things that Neal gave in to. I hate the decision Neal made. I hate Neal's pathetic willpower (I just couldn't resist... I have an addiction... is never an excuse in my eyes--If you want change bad enough, you'll do what it takes.).

I hate those things because humanity can be better than that.

As for his posts on cyberkwoon, that's their business, unless it can be shown that he's not allowed on the internet. I personally would ban out of caution, but I offer this for thought:

A couple have mentioned the "illness," aspect of this. Well, that may be true. Alcoholics are clearly ill. However, the successful ones who stay dry, all have a few things in common:

They all stay away from bars, liquor stores, situations that used to trigger their drinking, even staying away from the old crowd if they have to.

I have difficulty believing that a man serious about staying "clean," from pedophilia would place himself near and around children, unsupervised, beyond passing them in the street, or even frequent forums in which they might be found to "play" with.

[vingtsunstudent]

for the record
jojitstu27-neal cameron-tulsawingchun
vts

[Stacey]

Royal Dragon, that was hillarious..lol

I'm not neal and 15 (more like 16) year olds are hot..

Perfect bodies...according to society I should get a doctorate or be well established with my psycological equal before procreating at the age of 45.

Well 15 year olds are hot. Marriage age in most traditional cultures. You can still get married in some states at 16. I have heard 40 year old say..ewe gross, someone in their 20's...give me a fuggin break, have your intellectual match, but your body wants a teenager.


well my dad married my mom when he was 50 and she was 24, does that make him a pedophile or simply virile?



Oh and everybody that doesn't agree with me, stop jumping to all these conclusions. Because lets say I have an old picture from high school of a 16 year old naked...does that mean I have child porn? Am I a sex offender?

I just want to clear this up. Because I have no sexualy feeling towards children. Nor do I go hitting on anyone below my age range..I actually date primarilly older women, but I still know 16 year olds are sexy.

[Fighter]

Have to go you guys, my one year old daughter is crying like crazy. I'll talk to you guys tommorrow. Oh yeah, family members of the victims should get a crack at these people.

[JasBourne]

So glad to hear that when I reach 50 and I take on a 24 year old lover, I will be "virile" instead of a "dirty old lady". I've got something hot to look forward to, it seems :D

[red_fists]

Jas.

For women it is 50 yr old, married with a 24 yr old Toy and a mature Lover on the side.

:p :p

[Asia]

So glad to hear that when I reach 50 and I take on a 24 year old lover, I will be "virile" instead of a "dirty old lady". I've got something hot to look forward to, it seems

Having held the position of younger lover boy toy ( I was 23 she was 46) I must say I throughly enjoyed it!!!:D I encourage all older women to take younger lovers so they can train them to outstanding Older Lover when ther time comes. (I still settle for just being a Dirty Old Man as well!!!:D )

[SifuAbel]

Funny enough, this all started with me calling Neal on a two year old hack story about him having to use his skill recently. After which I called him simply a sick feak. Thats where it all hit the vornado. People right off the bat stated that they knew and didn't care. That is a crying shame.

Let start with stacey. A 16 year old girl at least can have the sexual maturity and desire to actually consent to a sexual experience with another person of her choosing and weigh the consequences of her actions, an 8 year old girl has none of those qualities. In any case we are talking about the alleged rape, the act of sexual intercourse with a non consenting person, of a minor. He was not convicted of this crime. He was under investigation for it and the only thing that saved him was the fact that the girl could not or did not want(we don't know) to identify him in court. Which, IN MY OPINION, is based on fear because the defendant was sitting in plain site in the court room. This point is moot. You are moot. You I ignore, everyone else should too. You are fishing for something to be shocking with. You've gotten your attention quota, now go away and let the adults speak.

Merry,

Good points, kids are plenty on the internet.

My role here is not really to get Neal banned. On the contrary, I want him to be around so that everyone can see for themselves and be the almost united front that KFO(for once) has been on this issue. The people have the power here. My stance here is simply to have the right to call him a sick freak because it's the truth. No court in america would indict me for stateing the truth about a covicted sex offender. And yes, indescent exposure is a sex offense.

Neal, if you are reading this, What part of what I've said so far is a LIE? What could I possibly be sued for? Anything else besides the tulsa web page and the news article( public information) is my opinion, that I can't be sued for. Letting people know who you are is a right that I will fight for. I read FFabs position on this subject, and I have to agree that until some court somewhere tells him that neal can't be at cyberkwoon he doesn't have to do so. But at the same time until a court tells me that i can't mention neals offenses(which are public record and therefore not liableous) I will also not cease. Neal does not work off the internet, being on or off cyberkwoon does not afftect his livelyhood, he doesn't have a character left to defame, his actions are public record so there is no instance of slander. Whats left?

Neal has his lawyer "monitoring" the web pages for a law suit. LOL! A poor wretch like neal has a lawyer on retainer with nothing better to do than cruise the internet and charge him 100 dollors an hour? Got to give the som' bitz credit for imagination. If I were neal i would duck out and let this blow over instead of making waves. Do you really want to put your life under a microscope again?

Can one of you lawyers please correct if I'm wrong?

[Fighter]

What you are doing Sifu Abel is nothing wrong, you're just warning everybody that there is a convicted sex offender around. Its no different than concerned parents posting flyers on telephone posts about a sex offender living in their neighberhood. If you could get Neal's posts from the Otherground forum and if he does take anybody on this forum to court, his case would be killed on the spot. Have an IT specialist look for his posts on the Otherground forum, I bet that person could find it. Neal posting how he wanted to rape girls is unforgiveable, and we have every right to label him a sick freak. You don't brag about something like that.

[SifuAbel]

ttt

[SifuAbel]

Neil's answer on cyberkwoon.

Abel,
I don't have a problem with you doing what you think is right. If following me around the internet, ringing the old "watch out he's a sex offender" bell makes your day, then by all means do it. I hope it makes you feel good.
I do have a problem with you spreading lies. You are spouting facts you have gotten from second hand sources and from the Tulsa World of all things. The Tulsa World is a notoriously innacurate newspaper in this area. They are funded by the conservative right wing leaders in the area who also back the D.A. who prosecuted my case. If you truly are interested in the truth, contact me by e-mail, because I have no other wish to discuss this topic on this forum. I come here to discuss martial arts related topics. If you email I will provide you with court transcripts or whatever is necessary, even if it means getting you in contact with my prosecuting judge, to prove to you that I was proven innnocent beyond a doubt in the case of the 8 year old girl who was assaulted. I can also provide you with lie detector exam results by
the local sex offense therapist that prove that I
commited only one case of indecent exposure, but
pleaded guilty to two others for part of a plea bargaining with the D.A. for a reduction of sentence. If you truly are interested, e-mail me, but all of this is confidential info and I don't want you spreading it around the internet anymore.
In fact, I would appreciate it if you don't talk about me on the internet anymore.
You too, Ffab. Please don't air my dirty laundry just because you think you have the power to do so. If either of you have any self respect and honor as martial artists you will consider my request that you drop all talk of me.
So, Abel, if you ever want to continue this conversation again, e-mail me at cameron_joe@hotmail.com
Otherwise, I will see you on the other forums in martial art and fighting related topics.
-TulsaWingChun.

[Royal Dragon]

Waste my time E-Mailing him. We all know who and what he is. Even if he's right, what about the Otherground forum??? and all the stuff he said there??

[SifuAbel]

It's a lost cause. Too many pro neil guys at cyberkwoon. Who knew there were so many. Are they pro pedaphile too? I wonder. I'm not going there anymore. Which means(gulp)it's either here or dragons list. Lord have mercy. And of course RD's forum.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not even looking at cyberkwoon anymore. I was just over there, and realized Neal has alot of freinds ther. cyberkwoon is like a home for sick freaks now. I couldn't ever post ther knowing Cameron might respond to me in some manor, just grosses me out.

My forum is growing little by little, just had some more new sign ups tonight. It will be better once I get the Kung Fu store up, then I can get better software. Infact, I'm looking at the upgrade for the fourm software KFO runs. $300 big ones though, so it's gong to be a wile. BUT, I think I found a host that can run it for a realitively low cost.
The new software allows the USER to configure how he/she see's the board and everything.

Anyway, got to go to bed now, midnight snak is all gobbled up!!!

[Serpent]

I hear you guys (primarily Abel and Royal Dragon) but I think you're on a bit of a witch hunt here. Fair enough, Cameron is a sick fu(k and I'd join the line to beat him in a second. However, he's not posting here any more as far as we know. As for Cyberkwoon, Ffab stated his position and I think it's fairly reasonable. I don't see all the pro-Cameron people there that you guys do. Fab made a judgement call and the rest of the users there seem to be happy with that.

However, I think the real issue is this. Should Cameron be banned without debate simply because using a forum constitutes unsupervised interaction with a minor? After all, a lot of posters are kids. A lot of posters act like kids too, but that's their problem! ;)

So, I see that as the real issue. If you can prove that the case fits those parametres, then ban him. Otherwise, shut the fu(k up about it. It's Fab's site and his call. You don't like it, don't go there. If you think the issue is as I stated above then go tell that to Fab. (Is his bloody name one 'f' or two then or what? I've never figured that one out! :confused: )

And if you do happen to come across Cameron, smack him in the fat face for me, will ya?

[Royal Dragon]

Maybe he should be banned because he is a disturbance to the forum, and his presence sickens a great many members. Not to mention the fact that someone of his nature should not be able to use the forum due to the fact that martial skills, knowledge and resources don't belong in the hands of someone like Cameron.

[Fighter]

I think Royal Dragon is right, he should be banned. The man is disgusting, period. Defending child porn and wanting to rape girls is really sick man. The man can never change. All sex offenders think about is their next victim. The first thing that Neal thinks about when he wakes up in the morning is his next victim and is also the last thought in his head before he goes to sleep. Why does he learn martial arts anyway? Is it to use it against little girls or is he trying to protect himself just in case a father of one his next victims might go after him?