Help, I keep telling my friend that Juko-Kai is stupid, but...

[IronFist]

Yeah, this girl on my floor who does TKD saw the thing and I can't convince her that what they do is bullshít. She wants to know how the guy took 4 punches to the neck and stuff.

And I told her that girl who passed out passed out and she replied "no way, she just relaxed. She looked up when they took the blindfold off like 'why did you take the blindfold off?'"

Oh boy. So how did they do the 4 punches to the neck thing?

IronFist

[Black Jack]

Your friend is a bit ignorant, its common, no offense, tell your friend their is no marital magic.

The shot to the neck thing is sooo bogus, but bogus in a very bad way, where the goon getting hit can get killed if their is a mess-up, serious cult like crap.

These neck shots are closed fist and aimed low, into the meat of the neck, they are not frontal throat shots, if they tried this with a ax-hand to the trachea and they would see some different results, aka messed up or dead students.

A real shot to the trachea with the intent to flatten the windpipe is not what you are seeing. Well focused blows to the front or side of the throat can have a multiple combinations of results.

Fracture of the Thyriod carilage, frature of the Cricoid cartilage, rupture of the internal Jugular vein can lead to death, severe contusion of the carotid vein may lead to blood clots which may eventually end in cerebral thrombosis, damage to the Phrenic nerve, Laryngeal nerves, the Hypoglossal nerve of the tongue can be damaged which could cause suffocation and death if swallowed as you would lose control of the tongue, you could get a hematoma in the sheath that encompasses the internal jugular, carotid or vagus nerve with the result of blood leakage, which would mean death by strangulation would soon follow without medical attention.

All kinds of damage could be inflicted. Be carefull when messing with the throat.

Its a great target for real self preservation. Not this garbage.

[Kristoffer]

Great info Black Jack.


But seriously... wtf is 'juko kai'??:confused:
never heard of it

[Black Jack]

It's a commerical cult.

You should also add into the mix, group hypnosis for pain, and the pulling of punches, where does the the apex of power in those punches land, are they driving through, or are they just ending.

Besides direct throat shots you don't see anybody kneeing somebodies trachea, or jumping up and down on it like a bronco, or biting it, or choking it.

[Mojo]

Black Jack
I watched a demo this team did at the 1975 Long Beach Internationals.
At that demo, Steve Sanders, the head of the Black Karate Federation hit one of Mr. Sacharnoski's students in the throat with a 'knife' hand chop like you describe.
Mr. Sanders hit the student with alot of speed and power, directly into the throat. After the first two strikes, the student urged Mr. Sanders to hit him even harder. Mr. Sanders complied with a few very hard strikes to the throat. To no effect.
These guys can really take a shot to the throat.
They were also hit with , that 4 person kneck strike, and a spinning heal kick to the temple. All with no effect.

[Black Jack]

Sorry, I am not buying it. No offense to you or your judgement. I don't buy that elvis walks around either.

Nothing on this planet will convince me that a person can summon up their smurf magic and not take any damage.

[IronFist]

Yeah, you don't know for sure that punches aren't being pulled unless you're the one doing the punching.

I thought maybe the punches were hitting right as they were locked out... in otherwords there was no more forward momentum as the made contact, but since I haven't seen their tv special in like a year or so I didn't remember exactly how it was done. Didn't they use football players or something?

Still, I heard it was fake 6 years ago, but I forgot how they said they did the stuff.

More explinations welcome :)

IronFist

[Mojo]

I take no offense at your doubts, as I firmly believe in seeing with my own eyes before I believe any stories of unusual abilities.
But, like I said, they took the shots from people who were not associated with them and wanted to try to hurt them. It was a good demo, one of the more impressive that I've seen. And I've seen alot of demos but this was one of the only times that a group asked anyone of the compeditors or audience members to hit them.

[dezhen2001]

Most people with real skill who demonstrate something like Hard Qigong use members of the audience also. Of course it look spectacular, as none of the audience realise the training you have to go through to be able to do things like that (it's real hard :().

Of course, some people use 'tricks' but in the end why kid yourself if you don't do the training?

david

[Silumkid]

Iron,

If you taped the show, show it to her. I saw a couple times in there where the shots were not hitting where they were supposed to. Forinstance, the guy who was getting kicked in the neck...watch the foot. The guy is actually taking the hit on the far side of his jaw, not the throat. Also, in the punch demo with the black gentleman, the guy who ounches him in the throat actually hit him around his collarbone area and let the punch slide up. Watch it carefully and you can catch it.

Don't get me wrong...I believe in iron body. I just don't think these guys have it from what (little) I have seen of them.

[raving_limerick]

Hey IronFist,

You might want to check this thread out...

E-budo Bad Budo discussion of Juko-Kai (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11228)

[Mojo]

I've read the e-budo stuff and believe it. his lineage is quite suspect. But he does have the iron body, I'll give him that.

[IronFist]

Hey you can download a copy of their segment at the e-budo thread.

IronFist

[old jong]

I heard of this prof.Sashanorsky in the happy seventies, a long time before the ninjas and grapplingmania! It was then simply called Ju-Jitsu (Not Jiu!)with some ki or iron body technique added to the style. It works for real whatever we believe it or not. Many chinese martial artists practice that kind of chi kung. I have even heard of some guy in Montreal who was letting anybody hit him anywhere for a small amount of money!...He was kicked out of his kung fu or tai chi ? family!
I dont have any interest in that for myself but I recongnise the thing as a fact.
I suggest to those with "scientific" answers to try absorbing kicks to the groin and punches to the troat wit muscle control or something! Are you well insured?...;)

[SaMantis]

hi guys,

This juko-kai thing is suspect simply because the Discover channel segment gave the impression that the people attending the seminar could become "combat ki" masters in one day.

Iron palm training takes several months of daily practice to develop. Iron body takes years. Getting kicked in the nads for one day isn't going to toughen you up for anything.

Real or not, that one-day seminar could cause long-lasting damage -- mainly from new students going home and practicing hard strikes on each other. (The strikes were either pulled or were directed to noncritical areas, like Silumkid pointed out.)

[Budokan]

Watch the hand strikes. The punches are delivered with the elbow still crooked, even to the point where most of the energy of the delivery is actually being absorbed by the elbow. Anybody with any training in classical MA knows this is not the correct way to punch--but it's the perfect way to punch somebody and not hurt them seriously.

Which is what juko-kai is all about. Well, that and taking your money.

Keep an eye on these cultish freaks. It won't be long before they start cutting off their balls and drinking kool-aid while awaiting the mothership in the tail of a comet. These fruitcakes are just about that stupid.

[wufupaul]

http://168.103.204.75/toide//CombatKiTrailer.avi The beginning of that clip has some throat and groin sites, for the people who missed the show. I don't know about this one..some of those strikes look pretty hard.

[guohuen]

Please watch the trailer again and look carefully at the exact spot the fist strikes the throat. Also checkout the angle of the fist and the extention on the arm. You'll also notice the shin strike to the throat hits the exact same spot.

[omegapoint]

If you ever talk to a western sensei and he tells you that he is a recognized Soke (grandmaster) in Japan or even Okinawa, then your evaluation of his integrity should have to go no further. The Japanese just try and "keep it at home" when it comes to conferring Sokeship. The Okinawans are the same, and will always pass on Grandmaster status to family members or senior Okinawan students. I don't even think that there is one Mainland Japanese Okinawan Karate Soke, let alone a Gaijin (foreign devil).

As for his relationships with the various Sensei pictured on the TLC program; well for one Fusei Kise, recognized by many Matsumura Seito practitioners as being the unofficial head of Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Ryu, as far as I know, never trained this guy for any significant length of time. True, Shorin does teach Iron Body, but it is a small part of the overall training. There are many Goju styles that do a harder form of Iron Body, but I doubt that their systems entail training for the sole purpose of being the invincible uke (defender).

Most of those pics were of the "Hey great seminar, can I get a picture with you sir" variety, and not the "Master with trusted disciple" type. My sensei was a senior student of Fusei Kise in the 60's-80's and he laughs when I tell him this cats antics and claims. This "soke" and George Dillman must be long lost brothers. They present a superficial understanding of Chi Gong and pressure points as an all encompassing fighting form. Just think about it...

As for the science behind Juko-Kai. Black Jack and others have commented on the strength and technique behind the performance of blows on uke. The human body is quite resilient when it comes to taking physical punishment. Ever seen that "Backyard Wrestling" video advertisement? Pain acclimation (desensitization)can teach a person to tolerate most single strikes to even a vital point. How many of the attackers were raining blows on the defenders from odd angles and with pinpoint techs like nukite (spear to front of throat), occlusion of just the carotids with even the thumb and forfngers, middle- or one-knuckle strikes to the temple or mastoid process, armbars, rear-naked chokes with constant pressure for prolonged periods, side- or treading kicks to the front of the knee, or a myriad other single or multiple strikes to places like under the chin (fracturing the hyoid bone and swelling the soft tissue, occluding your airway)?

He's playing on the publics lack of MAs conditioning knowledge. Anyway most Grandmasters don't go around saying they are Grandmasters, you just know they are, especially if they're any good at what they have mastered. This dude probably got a first degree BB in Goju Ryu or something, and saw how the Hojo Undo (supplementary training) could be utilized as a new slant on traditional karate training (gimmick=$$$). You would think that if most of his students were BBs in other styles before switching to Juko-Kai (especially in Shorei or Shorin) they would have a clue. Guess that's the state of MAs.

I know for sure he is not a Matsumura Seito Shorin Yudansha (BB), so when I saw him posing with Kise I laughed. Then I told my instructor, and he laughed. Oh well, at least in the USA he won't have a shortage of Sado-Masochists to continue paying his bills.

In summary: I would be very suspicious of this guys motives. I've heard of the art of fighting without fighting, but not fighting by getting beat up. You might not last that long in the ring or the real world with the attitude of being a human makiwara.

[Budokan]

Funny. For all of their vaunted ability to absorb punishment you didn't see any of these juko-kai freaks take any temple strikes.

Let me hit one o' the bast*rds. I can promise you that when I do he'll drop, and I also promise there'll be a lot more extension in my elbow at the moment of impact than what I saw in this demo tape.

It also bothered me that he was bragging about being a 10th level grandmaster. :rolleyes: How embarrassing, to not know anything more about MA than to make such a silly statement and refer to oneself as "soke". Lame as a wet noodle on a sultry day.

It's a cult. 'Nuff said.:rolleyes:

[SaMantis]

What's sad is I met Sheri MacGregor last year -- briefly, at a women's MA tournament -- and she seemed to have her head on her shoulders. (She was the one who passed out during the 'master's test'.) Can't figure out why she can't see through this guy, she's been in MA long enough. :confused: