Training question.

[PJO]

When training for practical self defence; I'm talking about everyday situations not competition or ring; what do you prepare for. Do you practice against the every day joe shmoe who tries to clock you at a bar or do you train for someone who also may be a trained fighter. It seems that both of these take on different philosophies. I know you should train for anything but I think there is a little different focus on fighting a trained fighter. Any opinions on this?

[Johnny Hot Shot]

I train with the worst case senario in mind .

That being a bigger better trained opponent. Perhaps on PCP. My thinking is that you just never know what could happen so it's better to be prepared.

[nospam]

My Canadian dollar's worth is this...you are training either for tournament competition or for the real deal. There are not other distinctions that will vary as great as these.

Tournament is a different mindset within rules. It also involves much more cardio or so it should, as you are sparring/competing for many rounds. Usually, depending on the length of the rounds, you will pace yourself some.

Non-tournament is a do or die mindset. Well, do or lose and suffer the consequences most times. Anything goes, and you want to incompacitate your opponent(s) in the shortest time possible.

The question of training for 'self-defense' vs a trained fighter? Self-defense isn't about fighting. It is more about awareness and prevention; failing these, removing yourself as quickly as possible to a more 'safe' position. Shock value techniques and getting the hell away or putting something between you and your attacker is the goal - fundamentally speaking.

Training to fight against a trained fighter or against anyone else for that matter is about being the best you can be, not being better than anyone else - that is a competition goal.

I should be constantly challenging myself. My teacher should be constantly challenging me. In MNSHO, you need to spar against other stylists of varying physical stature to be able to gage your ability. If you fail, don't look at it as defeat, that is competition, look at it as a lesson, a boot in the pants, and assess what went wrong? Even if the opponent(s) were better skilled, what seemed to work...what didn't...

It is very easy for us to get into the kwoon rut - we stop training and just practise at a stagnant level. Training begets challenge. Challenge begets skill. The better you train, the better the challenges are met, the better your skill gets.

nospam.
:cool:

[PJO]

thanks for the response but I meant when training for the real deal. Should you train for an idiot just trying to take your head off or should you think maybe this guy is trained, maybe he'll kick or try to grapple with me? When defending against a normal attacker you generally don't need to worry too much about him doing some high flying kick.

[Ryu]

The opponent I am "afraid" of and train for is the large monster boxer/wrestler type who is powerful, accurate, and conditioned. Not a 110 pound nobody. To train with that kind of image in your mind you need to be in great shape, lift weights, grapple, box, spar full contact and experience the feelings of getting hit, having a large individual inside your guard, a big guy coming in at you throwing punches, etc.
"Real deal" can be either an untrained fighter or a very trained fighter. I do think training for the trained fighter makes the untrained fighter that much easier, but for real life there is also
scenario training, first strike training, encroachment handling, semantics, environmental awareness, how to stand while talking to someone you don't know the intentions of, etc.

That's just my take on it.
Actually in the next couple days I'm going to be "teaching" someone those very things... a fight might come his way, but hopefull not. (weird situation...)
Anyway he's never been in a real fight, so I want to kind of coach him through some contact scenario drills, de-escalation and first strike principles, ground and pound from the mount, and some contact sparring to give him a feel of getting "hit" so he doesn't fold under fear of the unknown.
That's how I would "train" real deal ....

Later
Ryu

[red_fists]

PJO.

Here is my take.
Competition, Tourney, and the like plus the real deal are 2 very different animals.

In Competitons you work with a large amount of known variables and thus can prepare for them. Plus, those variables will not change that much.

In the Real Deal it is Open Season and anything goes.
So your Opponent might be a drunk Biker, a 160 pound PCP Junkie or a trained fighter.
Plus, the real deal also might introduce multiple opponents, weapons and unexpected happenings.

You will need a completely different mindset of each.

So the only thing I could suggest is getting your mindset ready to:
1.) Avoid a fight situation
2.) End a confrontaton as quickly as possible
3.) Get out of the danger zone.

So I think a lot more awareness and mental training is needed for the real deal as you need to be aware and keep track of a lot more variables.

As for training sparing as many environments, clothing and against as many possible Attackers as possible.
And that as many unexpected variables as possible that your Opponent and bystanders can spring on you.

Personally, I would say that going to the ground in street fight is a possibility, but not a place where you wanna be.

There is nothing pretty nor glorious about street fights, and the chance that you will be in as much problems as your attacker is very high.
Just my take on it.

[Cashier Graham]

I like to think about the different types of fighters out there and how to deal with the way they fight. From karate-kid to drunken haymaker to huge grappler, think about them all.

[sphynx]

i just wanted to add my 2 cents :-) i sometimes find that the untrained fighter can be just as dangerous. they have a level of unpredictability that i *sometimes* find lacking in a trained fighter. but naturally you should be prepared to fight against a trained fighter too. so to answer your question more accurately, i think you should be ready to fighter either or.

[Ray Pina]

Train to handle the best, and it will take care of the rest.

You'd be surprised at how many people out there know some basics, trained boxing or wrestling as a kid. Yes, you'll see a lot of those wide stupid hooks which are so easy to enter. But don't count on it.

I train to beat whatever comes my way. All situations, up, down, left, right. If you can handle very effiecient attacks when the attacker has the ability and know how to change, then the guy on the street looking to land a simple one to doesn't seem so tuff.

You have an advantage. You're fighting all the time. You're preparing for that moment, thinking about it, analyzing it all the time. Most likely they will be ****ed or drunk or both and their emotions will have the best of them. This is the time to let your training come through you.

[JWTAYLOR]

Do everything you can to train for, and train WITH, people who are better fighters than you.

I'm a firm believer that you are only as good as the people you train with. If you brag that you can "beat everybody in the kwoon with ease" that tells me you aren't training with quality people.

As far as the street, most criminals look for "victims". They are going to look for someone they have an advantage on. I have no assurace that they have not studied a martial art just as long as and as hard as I have. So I must instead assume that I am up against someone who is has trained to fight, has the intent to do me harm, and feels that they have the upper hand.

So that's who I train for.

In other words, it is absolute folly to think that some person you have never met and is attacking you is an inferior fighter.

JWT

[Mutant]

Train for the highest level opponent you can imagine, at all times.

It is misleading to count on that 'every day smoe' being an uncoordinated, untrained, unconditioned duffus who will throw a haymaker. You never know who you'll run into out there, maybe the guy will be an experienced fighter....and even if theyre not, they may have a weapon (even a broken bottle..) which changes the equation.

There are different levels of skill and technique...even the low level stuff can be dangerous to you in the bar or street. Train for the highest level and hopefully you'll be ready for a low-level fighter if you get into that situation. If you train for the highest level and encounter a skilled fighter then you just might survive and prevail. If you only train low level for low level situations, then you'll only be a low-level martial artist. Anyone can hurt you, even an untrained person or low level martial artist, if you screw up or are unlucky. If you train to counter a fast, untelegraphed, high level strike, for example, then theres a better chance that you'll be ready for the haymaker. If you only train for the haymaker then you'll only have low-level responses that may or may not be ready for your average street punks unpredictability and the stress factor, let alone your misfortune if that fighter turns out to be a skilled fighter cause then you'd be done for.

[shaolinboxer]

I try to train so that my body reflects concepts that can be used in any situation.

Sorta like metascenario training.

Since life is abstract, I train abstract.

[Marshdrifter]

As I started to think about this, it started to seem more and more
like an odd question.

I've never been in a fight, and at this point, I may never be,
which would be fine by me. I don't really take Wing Chun (my
style of choice) for self defence or fighting ability or anything like
that, but I do realize that being able to do Wing Chun correctly
will give me self defence tools and fighting ability.

When I train, I'm training to be the best at Wing Chun I can be.
I don't think about what I might be up against in some
hypothetical altercation. It really shouldn't matter all that much.
As long as I stick to my game and play it that way, it should be
fine. The principles of Wing Chun and my understanding of the
mechanics involved, coupled with the sensitivity and other skills
I've acquired from class, are most likely all I'll ever need.

I do occasionally spar friends who take other styles. Sometimes
I do well, sometimes poorly. Usually when I do poorly it's because
at some point I abandened my style and tried to play the other
person's game.

I don't like the idea of trying to think of the other guy will do.
I don't know what the other guy will do. So I stick to my principles
and they serve me well.

MutantWarrior said that one should "train for the highest level
opponent you can imagine, at all times." I can't count the number
of times when I've met people who were better than I had
previously thought possible. I've seen more and better people
and perhaps I have a good handle on what the best would be
like and maybe not, but I'd rather not bank on that. I'd rather
worry about being the best I can be.