Challenging the McSensei

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Are they any MA in the San Diego are interested in a bit of old school MA type challenging?

Over the past few weeks I have been going from McDojo to McDojo calling first to set up a "First time Private lesson" I go to the Bogus schools and talk with the instructor for a bit listening to there garbage shpeal.

When they get on the topic of sparring I ask them if they would like to spar with me. So far no takers

Now I just about got busted by a USSD instructor that knows me. He has alerted his fellow USSD instructors of my scheme. A friend still in the system alerted me of this and thinks they might have somebody waiting for me at my next visit.

This is making me think I may need some back up at some point and I'm just wondering if any of you might be interested in a little extra curricular activity?

[Silumkid]

Johnny,

San Diego is a bit far for me...too bad you weren't doing this while I was in basic there! That would have been fun.

But hey, if you ever wanna come play with the USSD kids here in San Jose area, look me up.

[African Tiger]

Might I suggest NOT trying that with Sifu Carl Totten in North Hollywood! :eek:

He has a doctorate in Psychology and can see through people as if they were made of glass.

[Stacey]

If they are Mcdojo, who cares?

Will they know the day you show up? Do they have your picture...go by another name. Ask them politely. Tell them, you want to know that they can teach you something.

Are you waiting for more than one guy? Again, if you good enough to challenge people, you should be ok.

Just do it if you want to..my kung fu brother used to do that all the time, beat lots of people up. Good for him.

I started making a list too, but if you know shuai chiao, plus have hands and kicks, whats the glory of taking out an american tkd fighter? None really. If you roll on the ground and are good there and take a still ole karate sensei, whats the glory, you can win at will.
Are you boosting your self importance or trying to get better? A little warning, don't judge people by how they look...some of those fat guys can really move well.

A blackbelt came into our school and challenged our Sifu once. Sifu didn't pay the guy much attention, just talked to him a bit durring the times everyones form was good. They guy claimed that chinese styles were stiff and impractical compared to Korean styles. Ok, whatever. The guy suggested point sparring, but Sifu wouldn't have it...I never do that, that stuff is for kids. We do NHB style fighting..He said "Me too" ...hmm so why did he suggest it in the first place? Sifu never heard from him again.

another time a challenger came and Sifu did a shuai chioa throw off the the guys lunge jab and slammed him on the ground effortlessly with sickening force...that was good enough for him, sifu massaged the breath back into him and helped him stretch out his back. He signed up but quit after a month.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Your not in USSD are you? No? I hope not.

Not to worry my friend I hav eonly targeted Schools that are suspect.

[neito]

haha, my boss challenged one of the stooges at O.E. Simons head McKwoon in edmonton. they guy said he was gonna call the cops, so my boss left

[GLW]

Johnny,

you are either a troll or someone with WAY WAY WAY too much time on your hands.

"Over the past few weeks I have been going from McDojo to McDojo calling first to set up a "First time Private lesson" I go to the Bogus schools and talk with the instructor for a bit listening to there garbage shpeal.

When they get on the topic of sparring I ask them if they would like to spar with me. So far no takers "

You take the time to call and make an appointment, drive there, listen to someone you give absolutely no cares about - waste his time, then make a challenge in the guise of "would you like to spar"

What is the purpose of this? If you want to write them off as wusses, you can do it a lot easier than this. My time on this planet is too short too valuable to me to waste it with this kind of stuff...instead I waste it responding to trolls on the web...but this is at work so I can take the time anyway....

If you are looking for a teacher, there are better ways...

If you are a troll...well you got some responses.

[KungFuGuy!]

They were going to call the cops on him? ****...
I was planning on dropping by the temple mc fu near my place and challenging them in about a year for the way they ripped me off. I hope the instructors there at the time won't wuss out like that. Then I'm flying to CA to rip johnny a new one :P
Good work johnny, keep on exploiting those mcbast@rds :D
By the way, what the hell is USSD?

[neito]

kf-guy personally i would'nt try anything on those temple guys, they suck but they are crafty. i'd rather just slander them online. i actually suspect that the individual schools are having serious financial problems due to lack of students, but simon is still filthy rich

[KungFuGuy!]

Really? Not the Hamilton one at least. There were new students all the time from when I was there. What they lose in student population they gain in monstrous prices.
Crafty, how? As in crafty fighting, or sue-your-a$$ crafty?

[neito]

crafty as in illegal crafty

[Sharky]

they pop a cap in yo ass

[CanadianBadAss]

In edmonton and you study Southren Kung fu... Do you study at that Tiger Claw school by any chance?

[chokeyouout]

There's an old man by the name of Fabio Santos in SD.Whatever you do, don't go in there and challenge anyone to any type of kung fu fight or challenge.But if you really want to go let me know and I'll bring my mini dv and blow your career up!

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Oh yeah I have'nt been on KFO for a while so the new guy's don't know me yet. I can asure you that I am not a troll. although I can be a bit of an A$$ole at times:D But I'm really a sweet guy. And yes I do have way too much time on my hands hence my little McDojo hopping.

That name Fabio Santo does sound familiar one of my friends was training BJJ under him for quite sometime. He now has his own school up in oceanside.

No worries I'm only going to McDojos.

Usually you can tell in the first 5 mins of a conversation with one of the McSensei if they are the real deal or not. Better yet observe a class. If the students suck it's a great indication that your in a McDojo. As well if it's a big chain like USSD then your chances are even better that it's a McDojo.


I have nothting but the upmost respect for real honest Martial Artists. It's just the ones that are out to rip people off that I am sick and tired of. Since I have ALOT of time on my hands these days. My Quest continues...

What I would like to do.I have heard stories perhaps legends of this and that is to form a group of good MA to scare the living daylights out of these McSensei to send them packing.

But This is only a dream. perhaps oneday.

[neito]

canadian bad ass - please check your private messages :)

[chokeyouout]

Cool.I'm sure you will find lots of phonies anywhere you look.Anytime a teacher instills a sense of false security, you JHONNY HOT SNOT will be there!Hell we could put this on cable!


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!! McDojo's Revealed!!!!!!!!

[respectmankind]

thats what my life has been missing all these years, random fight challenges.

[Dragon]

***Edited***
Not interested in arguing

[diego]

my buddy spent a year in the north vancouver school, he liked it for the workout, but doesnt know **** about martial arts, well actually after the last few years, what hes been thru he does.
Dragon whats the historical lineage on temple, what styles make it up, i heard something about white tiger, and my buddy learnt LUNG1, its a dragon mimic form similar to taichi, i was always curious about that, what styles did oe borrow thier wushu dance appeal and add it to his kenpo?.
Thanks

[Dragon]

***Edited***

Not interested in lawsuits either

[Dragon]

***edited***
I saw Lung I on TV once during a Tai Chi demo.

[KungFuGuy!]

Look guys, we have another believer :rolleyes:
When I trained I had a great attitude, I was willing to learn and unfortunately, learn I did. I bought into all that BS about me being so good that I was inducted into the "kung fu club" mid white belt, but in reality they were amazed at how fast I paid off the initial 1k fee, so they figured I'd pay off the 3k KF club membership just as fast.
However, since I've trained in other places, and was pointed in the right direct by the fellows here at KFO, I was able to figure out that their training is fraudulant.
I'm not afraid of any of the instructors there, and honestly I think I could take most of them myself. The training at temple mc fu is FAKE and ineffective, a serious martial artist like yourself should know that. Spar? You mean that slowed down no contact BS they charge you $800 a year for? You must be kidding me.
Mr. Murray is a skinny nerd who spends his free time watching computer porn. Seriously. I was at my friend's house who has him on his ICQ list, I looked at his message history, and there it was "hey man do u have any porn for me?". That was about the point where I lost any respect I had left for temple mc fu.
Mr. Sparrow I'll admit is probably quite tough, but if you trained in girly slap and hair pulling fighting for as long as he's been training in watered down kempo karate err I mean "white tiger kung fu", you're going to be just as powerful. If johnny has done the things he's said he's done, sparrow would be no match for him, so you probably should watch your mouth as you never know who's gonna fly down to meet you.
How can you defend a place that willingly and knowingly lies to their students after charging them outrageous amounts of money? You'd have to know the scam they've got going, you were one of the instructors. How can you live with yourself? If you're going to scam all those suckers, why not at least put some effort into the scam. What the hell is that crap about "shaolins don't believe in the use of weapons, so we don't train in them". Anyone who types "shaolin" in their web browser will instantly know that this is a lie. Why does simon still claim to have trained with the monks in china when there's a court log posted on the internet of him admitted to have never been in china. He learned all the martial arts he knows from his uncle when he was a little kid, and it was kempo karate.
I can go on even more, just tempt me.

[diego]

when he signed up, thier was one teacher, a slim fit-dude, he seemed genuine, and my buddy said he was pretty well conditioned, so i have no judgement.
What i would like to know is what styles did he use to blend his whitetiger, i do a form of kajukenbo wich is based around HopGar, wich is tibetan style white crane basically. So i think i get a idea where this style is coming from.
you mentioned taichi, does oe have rank in this style to blend it?, what styles is he certified to teach, i know the guy who made up? or taught what i do, he had teachers rank in kajukenbo so, it was logical for him to add his other styles into his framework!.
" although i havent found out if he made it or learnt from someone?, dang politics;)

[KungFuGuy!]

Dragon, what kind of a loser are you? You're actualy making physical threats on people over the internet? What are you, 11? I doubt you taught at temple kung fu, you're probably a new joiner in their kids classes (which are basicaly once per week aeroboxing thousand dollar classes).
Diego, fitness is all temple mc fu is good for. Even though the teachings are crap, they'll put you through a good work out if you're fat all the way up to decent. If you're in good shape, it won't do much for you as most people in the class are pretty fat, so the class is slowed down for them.

[diego]

***** about temple, and how its crap.

im just curious if people can back up the lineage.....RESPECTFULLY of course:)

[Dragon]

***Edited***

I bet Pokemon message boards have more maturity....

[KungFuGuy!]

I quit right before green belt. I found out about it being fake training early, I was discouraged by people here and accomplished martial artists I know in real life, but I kept going. It wasn't until I started noticing the very disagreeable training methods that I decided to leave. I'm not one to do something because everyone tells me to, I need to figure it out by myself. In this case, my stubborness really screwed me out of 4k.
Why do you keep bragging? Should I be impressed, scared, or both? Sorry, but I'm neither. This all boils down to smack talking on the internet, which you seem to do like a pro. You mentioned that you have a black belt in Hun Gar. I find this strange, I thought real kung fu places didn't use the karate-esque belt system.
Your not going to get anywhere with your insistance that simon learned from a monk. There's solid proof that he started his martial arts instruction career with "Simon's Karate and Guitar". Heck, they start you off with karate Gi's, and move on to *******ized velcro kung fu outfits.
I realize slow sparring has it's place, I've done it before. However, their slow sparring is something else altogether, and it's BS. Why do they make you buy $120 worth of sparring equipment when you never do any more than give your opponent a love tap?
Fletcher and paska? Heh, they were 2 of my teachers. In addition to Lepe and some other guy who's name I can't remember. I also had various "apprentice" instructors who weren't much more advanced than me. I spend that much money and I get freakin green belts teaching me in my hour per week? What a bunch of BULL.
The mr. Murray I'm talking about is about 21-22, skinny, over 6 feet tall, and wears glasses like the guy from the band Wheezer. He's the one that suckered me into joining temple mc fu, even though I had already drawn my own conclusions of it being fake training. My mind was too open for my own good. It's nicely closed now :D
Lung1 may be CMA like, but the Temple forms are OBVIOUSLY karate. At least temple 1, the others may have a couple moves borrowed from bruce lee movies thrown into the mix.

[Dragon]

***Edited***
Train too much on dealing with a righty and you will get smoked by the first lefty who crosses your path.

[Dragon]

Kungfuguy - if the tall 20-22 year old guy had red hair that was Mr. Charlton. Though he is in Vancouver now.
Mr. Murray is 5'11 - 220 pounds. He is around 30-34 years old. Balding and quite mean looking.

As for my challenge to Johneynbadass, that was for the simple reason I see him as having an utter lack of respect for the art if he spends his time convincing people to quit their schools and posting about traveling to schoolsto challenge their Sifu's. That is not the respect martial arts is about in my opinion.

As for black belts, many Kung Fu schools use belts. They are not traditional at all, they are a western concept but they are an effective way of grading students. In teh end students "Want" belts to keep track of their personal achievements. If you trained with Temple you will notice they actually use both systems, and I was granted a Black belt as well as a Black sash through Temple.

You were almost agreen belt? Then you shouldn't even know the 18 temple motions, those are from green to blue in Temple Kung Fu's system, and absolutely not Karate form. Karate tends to prefer the hard side of the art, the temple motions are taught at many Kung Fu schools in the Toronto area if you care to do some research rather than your talk.
As for your money. If you paid them and just stopped training you can go back at any time. Your book likely is in the dead files but they never discard any students information. They have boxes upon boxes of old doutangs with old knowledge sheets and programs.
If you didn't attend many skills classes or Kung Fu clubs then you can get a percentage of your money back. They yellow sheet you have as a receipt contains information about that. You will be charged an hourly rate, they will add up all your private lessons, skill classes and Kung Fu Clubs and whatever money is left over is all yours. Though you do have to write them a letter letting them know you are stopping your training and want your money back. If they argue with you, and if you truely were not even a green belt yet paid your Kung Fu Club fees in full then talk to your chief instructor and get your money back for gods sake. If he refuses then just let him know you will call a lawyer and I am betting they will just pay you what is yours.
AS I said, the reason I quit was due to how they handle finances. I offer my students a number of options based on their schedules and training needs including a pay by the belt, monthly fees and a number of other methods. Temple Kung Fu taught me how "not" to handle the finances. Like I said, I lost a great many students when head office decided they needed money and tried to get it all at once out of some guy who just wants to train.

[KungFuGuy!]

You can say "well you don't know because you were inexperienced" all you want, I'm not going to change my mind. I've talked to former temple kung fu students who wore the red uniform (for those who don't know, that means they're brown-black belt), they left because of the BS.
Temple kung fu isn't kung fu at all. You seem to think this is untrue, yet you offer no evidence. Whereas I can show you court logs and records of a business called Simon's Guitar and Karate.
Want to know what I think? You agree with me, you just don't want to admit to yourself that you wasted so much of your life on them. You sound a lot like I did when I had the big 100 reply flame war where I defended temple kung fu on this message board in October.
I went to at least 2 skill classes a week and only missed 1 private because the jack@ss instructor didn't tell me the right time. I asked for money back, fletcher said it wouldn't be possible. I said that I may take legal action, he seemed fine with it. I've talked to a lawyer, who said that I don't have a case.

[Dragon]

***Edited***
My Girlfriend told me to do that...
:(

[KungFuGuy!]

Alright dragon, enough. Right now you are probably typing up another long reply where you dance around every point I make and spill out what you think are facts. No more. In your next reply, I want you to address these points:
1) Why do they claim that, and I quote; "Weapons are not the way of the shaolin, the monks do not believe in their use. This is why we do not teach in weaponry."
2) Why do they give 19 their black belt/sash and let them teach, and call 28 year olds "masters" when you said yourself that it takes years and years to master the art they teach. 3) Why did I pay thousands of dollars to spend my hour per week with some kid a belt higher than me teaching 3 of us in the same "private lesson".

If you answer these sufficiently, I will continue with my questions. I have about 27 more :D

[KungFuGuy!]

I don't have a case. I'm sure fletcher wouldn't give me an uneducated answer when it could mean it's his @ss on the line. From the little I knew of him, he was a smart man, he wouldn't put himself in that situation. I've obviously signed something that prevents me from getting any money back if I quit. I've probably signed at least 10 documents, all of which I simply skimmed over.
The lawyer I had the conversation with has seen cases like this before. Companies like temple kung fu have defense mechanisms for things like this, I won't get anything with a lawsuit except high legal bills.
If you read through that post I made in october then you would have seen the court log that was posted. He was even nice enough to provide a link to the site he got it from, which was a little too proffessional to be fake. If it was, then it may aswell of had SUE ME in big bold letters on the front page. As for the records of his karate and guitar school, they're not on the internet from what I know of. Check the vancouver business bereau records, or whatever place that would have records of business (drawing a blank on this one) from the 70's. They're there.

[Dragon]

***Edited***

This is the only one I am leaving to be read.

Ok I will answer all your questions as best I can. I can not pretend to know everything about Temple Kung Fu but I did train there for 7 years and taught for them for over a year so in that time i aquired a fair bit of knowledge about them.

1. I don't know who told you Temple Kung Fu doesn't train weapons. Ask the friends you spoke of who wear red, they should have been trained in Chinese Straight Sword as well as Staff and depending on how long they were there possibly more weapons. Short staff is taught to blue belts, and by the time a student reaches brown belt they have been shown 3 forms of staff.
I would guess alot of the problems you encountered tie into questions 2 and 3.

2. Instructors at Temple Kung Fu quit all the time. they make them work 14 hour days for peanuts and tell them to try and sell products etc, many things that make the job less enjoyable. An Instructor is not handed a black sash until they have learned all the knowledge up to black belt well enough to teach it, and they do test Instructors before the Sash can be aquired. Until an instructor has his black sash he is a Trainee. I imagine there have been many bad experiences of students learning from trainee Instructors, however not every brown belt wants to teach Kung Fu, and Temple needs to train their instructors somehow. They do try to limmit it to having the trainees teach white belts only for awhile but they also get bogged down with lessons. (Private instruction requires 2-3 instructors working extremely hard.)
AS for 28 year old masters. I do not know of any. Master Sparrow is actually only an apprentice master at this time, though his skill in my opinion is that of a master. Master Weber has trained for over 30 years as has Master Jones. A master in their system must be an instructor and they must have trained their system for over 30 years. I would guess Mr. Sparrow to be 46, (He was my instructor when I started training there in the early 90's, and was at least 30+ at that time.) I do not know if they stick to that rule in extreme, but as I was informed, 30 years for master and 50 years for Grandmaster. I myself would not dare call myself a master until I have put in 30 years of training. Being a master is not just skill, its understanding and morality. Thus my sig.

3. Simply put you shouldn't spend that amount of money for the instruction you recieve. I had situations where students refused to have lessons from new instructors, or some very picky people who refused to train under anyone but the instructor who started them as that person had already proved his skill. In some of those situations the person ended up quitting, but in 2 situations I had students who had to be booked specifically with instructions that they would only be taught by myself. These things all had to be cleared with the Chief Instructor. They didn't like it, but in the end the customer is always right. In Kung Fu it is the instructor that sells themself. If you don;t know your stuff you lose students. I personally think they shouldn't hire anyone to be a trainee even until tehy have at least a blue belt. I myself had to train several instructor trainees in my time. They do work hard, spending all day, everyday to learn all the knowledge and forms. Cleaning up their skill after they have the knowledge is the most difficult part, but with the time an instructor puts in, you progress fast. Ultimately though, the answer to question 3 is that given the way they run things and the hidden costs I wouldn't recommend them as a school. If you want to base that arguement on the style, that is where I will argue. Unless every Kung Fu school I trained at is false, and everything I see in videos and Jet Li movies is false then I am certain I know Kung Fu. ;)

Now one of the biggest problems at Temple Kung Fu is that the trainees are instructed that if they are asked a question they don't know theanswer to, they should never admit they do not know. Temple Kung Fu has some principles in place that are foolish such as that. What ends up happening is that trainees end up guessing at the answers they don't know the answer to, and that leads to a whole pile of rumors and false information. I have heard 30 different reasons as to how O.E Simon lost his thumb, I didn't know hte truth until I heard it from him. I have heard junior Instructors say "Drunken style isn't a real form of Kung Fu, it is just for movies." Again false. When I was a student my Instructor told me not everyone can do the splits as your hip bones determine if you are able or not. Some people will never be able to do the splits. I later asked Master Piercy and he told me the opposite. He said if you warm up well, and stretch to your maximum, hold that for 15 minutes and repeat everyday you will be able to do the splits. He said it took him over a year and he had trouble with the last 2 inches but in the end anyone can do it if they are devoted to it.
Do Temple Kung Fu instructors know everything about Kung Fu and its history? Not by a long shot. Do they know Sil Lum? Absolutely.

One more thing I heard you mention in the old thread. You said your instructor would start your lesson 5 minutes late, end it 10 minutes early and leave for 10 minutes at a time. This I have seen happen though it can land an instructor in a great deal of trouble. Temple Kung Fu's instructions to be followed to the letter on threat of losing your job are this:
Each lesson will be started on the hour, not one minute past. Each lesson will end at 5 minutes to the hour, the student will be rebooked for their next lesson and reminded to attend skills class or Kung Fu club. An Instructor shall not leave a lesson for a period longer than 5 minutes per lesson.
Now a little behind the scenes from an instructors viewpoint.
Between lessons, ending at 5 to the hour I have roughly 2 minutes to look at my next students book and review his previous lessons. I have to check if they have injuries, and I have to prepare at least 4 things that are new for them to learn. Doing that in 2 minutes is not always easy.
When I leave for 5 minutes during a lesson I set a student up in front of the mirror or on the hitting bag and have a new technique for them to practice during that 5 minutes. I then use that time to phone potential board members to arrange for Kung Fu club meetings, get a small portion of posting done so I can actually get 7 hours of sleep rather than being at the studio till 3:00 AM. Trust me, Instructors there are worked very hard. We clean up in the morning, teach all day and do paperwork for hours when all that is done. On top of that we are expected to continue to improve our own skill as we get tested constantly. Given the pay for all that non-sense it is small wonder they have instructors quit constantly.
Anyhow, ask your next group of questions.

[Ray Pina]

If you're not ready to fight who ever they bring, who ever they put on the plate -- you have no business challenging them.

There is no glory in beating the Bowery Bum.

[gazza99]

"and everything I see in videos and Jet Li movies is false then I am certain I know Kung Fu."

Wow, your right jet li's techniques and that on movies are always accurate!! Im glad you base the definition of real skill on these things.
O.E Simon and his "holyness" can do the MA community a favor and burn down the buildings and disavow all students/instructors.
Never mind the accual martial skill, the shady buisness practices alone is enough to disqualify them from being good Martial artists.

Question for Dragon:
You mentioned you have a pay by the belt at your school?
So in order to keep getting payed you have to progress the student? This doesnt seem wise unless you are a belt factory, it could also produce a laize faire attitude with the students, as in, if they dont practive, they dont pay..etc..
If you do the rank thing the students should earn it by learning the skills. Even if you attempt to make the $$ amount fair within the average students progression timeline, there will always be people who learn faster/work harder and the converse of that. So the $$ is relative. I can see this causing contention and other problems.
Also are there any temple KF people near Oklahoma city? If so, I would be happy to meet with them on a freindly basis so I can attest to the accual skill.
Regards,
Gary

[Mr.Sleazy]

KFGuy!: I have followed what has happened to you on this forum, and having gone through a somewhat similar situation myself at TKF I have a lot of sympathy for you and would love to see you get your money back. Dragon gave you some excellent advice above, and I would give you the same: TRY TO GET YOUR MONEY BACK TRY HARD! I would cheer for you.

Request copies of all the documents you signed from TKF. If you have not kept your copies, TKF is obligated to give you new ones. Request your money back. Do this in writing. Keep all correspondence with them, and keep notes. I would love to see you get a refund. For myself, I paid out cash for the orange belt training, then quit when I started to see the money pressure put on students at the school. Not just for lessons, but books, tapes, uniforms, etc... Read over the consumer protection legislation in Ontario, you will probably find that TKF is in violation on several points. This can be researched online. But you need copies of your contract!

Dragon: Some of the poster's above don't seem to realize that you have LEFT TKF. As a former student (just a beginner to the yellow belt), I have no big problems with the TKF style. I have some nit-picks with their training methods, in that sparring seemed to be absent, and that the punching and punch block methods seemed kind of silly to me, but I acknowledge that I was a beginner. I have moved on and am now training Muay Thai, and the way I was taught to block punches at TKF just does not seem to make sense in that training.

What made me leave, however, was the same as for you - their business practices in relation to students. TKF uses high pressure, deceptive tactics to extract money from students. Trying to get students to pay the big bucks ($3200 I think) for KF Club while they are still enrolled in the orange belt program (another $1400) is called "bait and switch" tactics. When they invited me to join the KF Club, the head instructor spent 20 minutes trying to convince me to join, WHILE he had a student waiting for a private lesson. I pointed this out to him and he left immediately.

I have since discovered that the KFClub contract is illegal in my province (BC) and I am agressively pursuing the option of having all my money returned (BTW I never did join that club). It may end up in small claims, I am not averse to that. I am saddened to hear that instructors are treated poorly, I suspected that is the case, the person I trained under at my school I really liked and thought he was an excellent teacher.

I wish there was some way I could make the students enrolled in the KFClub at the Vancouver school that I trained aware that the membership contract for that club is blatantly illegal (Consumer Protection Act, RSBC 1996: http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/C/96069_01.htm) due to the fact that this membership is for 3 years. As you know, Dragon, the contract does not state 3 years, but students are told this during the "negotiations". Service contracts lasting more than 2 years are illegal. Anyone in BC who has paid for KFClub membership is entitled to a full refund.

As to fighting, the only one I would like to challenge is their fat Master Piercey, not the young fit instructors. Oh I would challenge old fat GM Simon too...

Thats my take. Good luck KFGuy and try to get your money back!.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

I live in southern California but I was born and raised in Edmonton and I was just there for 2 weeks in February.

I used to train at Sung Lee TKD way back in the 80's as well as a few other less known Dojo's. I think Sung lee has become somewaht McDojangy since then. **** too bad I didn’t know about you then cause I would have loved to come see you.

Do you know a guy in Edmonton by the name of Derrick Saddler? Friend of mine, as well as one hell of a good fighter. Lyle Cheney out of Red deer, know him? Perhaps they were before your time but they may still be around.

You seem like a very knowledgeable about the arts and the politics of temple Kung fu.

As for my respect to Martial arts? Was it not the Shaolin Monks who first started challenging? Didn’t the Warrior monks leave the temple on a quest to test their skills? I think history has perhaps scued our vision of what the Martial Arts are or once we're I think that if we were alive back then the training of the monks would closely resemble the training of MMA. But this is only my opinion.

Now I have a question for you if a person train in a McDojo with other shoddy Martial Artist and this is all they know don't you think that they would think that they have skill? Yes until they met up with a true MA. Now I do know some really great MA in Edmonton that have came from TKF but moved on to train elsewhere

I will be sure to check out your school nest time I'm in Edmonton Hopeful this summer I try to make it home at least a couple times a year.

Now just to set the record straight I'm not challenging legitimate MA just the Phonies.

Why are you all jazzed about this anyway? Seems to me that if you were as good as you seem to think something like this would even bother you. But take no offence Dragon.

I do look forward to seeing you the next time I'm in Edmonton. Where is your school and how long has it been around? When I was there in February I noticed a ton of new TKD schools.

If your somewhere near 97th and 118 ave I know a few good Chinese/Vietnamese (Than Than) restaurants there we could eat at after we are done talking/sparring/sharing.

I do love Martial arts and artists especialy good ones.

As for my training, 3 hours a week? LOL thats funny.

[Dark Knight]

"Now just to set the record straight I'm not challenging legitimate MA just the Phonies. "

What constiutes a legitimate MA and phonies?

Based on your opinion?

I dont spar with new people comming into the school. As an example why Ill retell a story Gene lebelle told me.

He was in france at one time and a local champion wanted a picture of him throwing gene. This seemed reasonable to Gene and they did the picture.

The next day the pixcture was in a newspaper saying that the local had defeated the american champion.

Now he does not do any action pictures.

I have had people come into my school and want to do light sparring. then without warning they decide to go to full power and speed. they leave telling all their buddies how they came in and got shots in. If I new that is what they wanted to do I would have never let up on them.

When you walk in and tell them you want to spar, they are not sure what level you want.

I have had people make it clear they want to challenge me and I have fought them. I attack first, hard and try to make the experience as painfull as possible.

I have found that anyone with real skills has better things to do than challenge me. But I expect the worse and have been happy that it has never happened.

If you are going to challenge people be ready for the guy who takes it to heart and breaks something on you because he wants to make sure you dont hurt him.

[Skarbromantis]

I went to the Toronto Scarbro!! school, Trained with Murry , Irullo, and the rest of under aged instructors...so where is your new school you teach at i would love to meet you in person!~!!

See if you really believe what you say or are you just talking out your a$$....whats the school's name and is your name TREVOR????

Skard1 ...........

[Skarbromantis]

the court case was Richard Shergold who took Simon to court

Mr Pascha (sp?) aint even 21 ,Mr kulick (sp?) is like 23, Mr Gabrial cant **** straight, Mr Murry is not mean looking ....he's goofy looking...with his big eyes!!

Kung fu guy : We know it's true ....because we have been there!

Sakrd1

[neito]

-if you don't mind please tell me what school you teach at in edmonton. thanx
-in case you are wondering, it's not because i am planning to pay you some kind of nasty visit, i just want to know. if you dont want to release the name on the the forum you can pm me or send me an email, or whatever works for you.

[Prairie]

Johny Hotshot:

I don't have really anything to say in this thread, but I have to
agree with you that Lyle Cheney is a very talented guy. I've never introduced myself to him but I have seen him at several tournaments. My memory of him is that he is very quick and powerful.

Bye for Now

[chingei]

Originally posted by Dragon
If that is you, then please, come pay me a visit. That would make me a very happy person. I could give you a free lesson.....

Johney Hot shot. Come to Edmonton and ask me to spar. Actually, just throw a punch that makes my life easier if afterwards you want to sue. just buy one plane ticket here and you will get your wish. I promise.

hahahaahahhaahahaahahahaha!

this **** is great! like some 'B' movie.

I wonder if these cats 'posing down' in front of mommy's mirror between posts?

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Well for starters and I don't want to come off sounding like a flake but there is an "aura" about Good martial artists.

As well upon speaking with good martial artist there view on training, history ect. is almost common. A good instructor will usually leave you with something memorable to think about. For example a Hungar Master once said to me "I start all my students with a black sash. Because once you get to a certain level you can tell who is and who isn’t and once you reach that level we are all just brothers anyway". I respect and love this man with every ounce of my being.

I also find that the better the MA the more respect they have towards people and other styles.

Also a legitimate instructor will never say we teach what the student wants. I actually had one of these goofs tell me "Oh we teach any weapon. If we go to a tournament and one of our students see a long sword form and they want to learn the long sword we teach it to them. So what if it isn’t practical it still looks good."

Truly the best way to see if an instructor is the real deal is to observe a class if the students suck well then it's a good bet that the instructor does too.

In my journey I am also meeting allot of really good Martial Artists.

I would like to see a coalition or board to regulate MA School to keep the bad ones out and the good ones in. Don't personal trainer have to have a nationally recognized certification before they can charge clients? Don't Doctors, Psychologists... the list is long of professionals that must be certified by a national board before they are allowed to practice. Why is it in martial arts any Joe blow can claim they are a 10th Dan and have created there own style and open a school. These people affect others in many ways other than just teaching bogus arts.

It's not like I'm being a Ahole about this . When I ask them to spar it is more of a friendly gesture. I first ask them if they spar with their students. If they reply no. I say it has been my experiene that most instructors that do not spar with their students ar either incapable or unconfident in there skills.

I don't go into these palces blazing all loud mouthed HEY YOU McSensei I'm Rowdy McNasty here to kick your McDojo running a$$. please :rolleyes:

I have met some really good instructors who have invited me back to spar when they have there sparring class. They are usually happy to oblige me. As I see it when I do get to spar with a really good martial artist that is better than me it is an opportunity for me to learn and learn alot I have.

It's fun, it's free and it's a great way to meet good martial artists.

My journey will continue.

[Knifefighter]

Someone coming in wanting to spar should not be a big deal. I believe any reputable school should spar with anyone who comes in wanting to do so. Any school worth it's salt should have quite a few students who could easily handle someone who wants to spar. Every BJJ school I know of will spar with anyone at any time. Same with any wrestling, Muay Thai, or boxing gym.

[joedoe]

Johnny Hot Shot - at the risk of sounding like a flake, I agree that real martial artists have a certain presence or aura about them. Often it is simply the way they move.

Knifefighter - I agree too. You should be willing to put your money where your mouth is and spar. After all, it isn't like in the old days where it meant you had to close your school if you lose :).

[Sharky]

i don't know what "sounding like a flake" means but i reckon just repeating that phrase made you sound like a flake.

[joedoe]

You sound like a flake too :D

[Johnny Hot Shot]

"Any school worth it's salt should have quite a few students who could easily handle someone who wants to spar."

Knifefigeter hit the nail on the head.

[chokeyouout]

I was thinking, if you stopped in every Martial art school that dosen't fight you'll be doing this for a few years before you get done.I would start with any place that dosen't have a ring,cage or mats.Then just look around for people standing around making strange postures talking about how deadly their style is and how enlightened they are.I think it's a excellent idea.It's kinda like challenging anyone who thinks their good at math to a Calculus 3 test.No speculation needed.

[Chang Style Novice]

Who the heck keeps a cage in their school?

I've never been anywhere without mats, though.

[chokeyouout]

My school has a cage.

[joedoe]

So you have to have a cage to be a good school?

[Xebsball]

I dont think there are many schools with cages man

I hate calculus

[Chang Style Novice]

Do you go in the cage if you are good...or bad?

[Dragon]

Johnny Wrote -
I do look forward to seeing you the next time I'm in Edmonton. Where is your school and how long has it been around? When I was there in February I noticed a ton of new TKD schools.

Actually Johnny, I wouldn't mind meeting you. Originally I put a fair bit of blame on you for kungfuguy quitting as in the old thread you came across as a the ring leader of sorts in the bashing of his training. In the end everyone who replied helped convince him to quit and cost him his training. Combined with the "McDojo challenges" posts at the start of this thread I must admit I lost my temper at what I viewd to be utter lack of respect for the martial arts and for those who train hard. As far as I am concerned if a student is having fun, training hard and getting in shape, it shouldn't matter if they are in Tae Bo or at Shaolin temple itself.
I must admit, and happily so, that your posts scince that time have been much more respectable and mature. If you want to politely appraoch me and spar or go through some forms by all means it would be a pleasure.
As to information about me and my school, I hope you will understand if I do not wish to post that here. First off I see so many people who are argumentative and seeking to defame anyone I don't even want my school known to most of these people, I screen who I train as best i can to avoid throwing more thugs out there. Second, I have provided a fair amount of defamitory information about Temple Kung Fu, and as I stated before, this is just the tip of the iceberg, I don't want to end up in a lawsuit with them myself over this. My ONLY point in this was about the style and the kenpo misconception. I wished to point out to people that it is in fact Sil Lum that they teach, though I am not so ignorant as to believe that message will get across without piles of arguing and dissrespectful statements. Perhaps it would be better if it truely were Karate, I have yet to meet a Karate student who was not genuinely respectful and polite.
Lastly I wanted to try and help kungfuguy get his money back. I know for a fact he still can, I can explain to him in steps exactly how to go about it if he is. Most people given the chance to earn $2000 for 1 week of work would sign up fast, if he wants to put in a weeks work I can help him get his refund without need for lawsuit even.

SKARD1 - Whats your last name and who was your first instructor? If you don't want to post it here, then PM it to me, I am betting I have already met you.

NEITO - PM me and we can talk. I have said all I care to say in public, and in my opinion I have said too much already. I told myself before I posted originally that I should avoid doing so as an ex-TKF instructor would throw me into the spotlight as some sort of villian and it would be much wiser to "let the kids have their fun." In the end I hate TKF more than any of you, trust me so this has been mostly an example of my own foolishness even getting envolved in this, and thrust into a role where I feel like I am defending TKF. I could care less if they went out of business so defending their style is an utter waste of my time.

Kungfuguy - PM me and I will tell you exactly what to do to get your money back. It will be perhaps a week of your time, maybe even less.

GAZZA99 - ... stop looking for the fine print mistakes. I never said "Everything" in the movies is true, I merely pointed out that not everything is false. I have yet to watch a Kung Fu movie and think to myself, "Wow, I have never seen anything like that!" Also my meaning was that if everything I know is Karate and not Kung Fu, than there must be ALOT of Karate studios, books, videos etc out there pretending to teach Kung Fu.

Kung Fu translated = "Hard work." Wushu = "War arts" taken at their literal meanings its rather foolish to get so upset over how authentic a style is that people quit their schools on a rumor. In the end I feel its not who taught you, but how hard you trained. If you catch up to your instructors skill level and if there is no logic to what you are taught by them then sure, its likely a scam. As long as you have room to grow and you see true combative application in what you are taught, keep learning. The only wasted time is the time you spend thinking about training rather than doing it. Pushups even are still Kung Fu.....

[chokeyouout]

joedoe-

Who said that?


Anyone can enter the cage regardless of style or skill.

[neito]

much obliged

[joedoe]

Originally posted by chokeyouout
I was thinking, if you stopped in every Martial art school that dosen't fight you'll be doing this for a few years before you get done.I would start with any place that dosen't have a ring,cage or mats...


Does this not imply that if your school does not have a cage or mats, then it is a candidate as a McKwoon?

[chokeyouout]

It would be a good place to start.Would you go to a baseball school without a cage?A racing school without a track?Wood floors don't mix with being thrown for ippon or suplex's.Training without at leat some padding is plain stupid.BTW, I didnt say those standards justify a Mc Kwoon, you used your head and concluded it on your own.At least someone read my post:( Sniffsniff

[raving_limerick]

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't follow you on this whole cage concept. The only thing that comes to mind is the chicken wire in front of a stage you'll see at some rough bars, and I don't think that's what you mean.

[HuangKaiVun]

What's the point of challenging McKwoons?

Challenging those that one feels he can defeat is easy. I can go into a kindergarten class and challenge the entire class - does that prove anything?

Why not challenge REAL fighters, guys who are willing to spar and will give one's value for the amount of gas it takes to drive to one of these places?

[shaolinboxer]

Word, Huang. The idea of being an avenging angel for the spirit of true matial arts is romantic, but challanging actual fighters has value. Not that I condone challange matches ;).

[Tigerstyle]

"I can go into a kindergarten class and challenge the entire class - does that prove anything?"

It does if you lose :p

[apoweyn]

LOL@tigerstyle

[KungFuGuy!]

That kindergarten analogy isn't very good.
If some kindergarten school claims to teach better colouring techniques than your kindergarten school, then you grab your crayons and colouring book, march on over there, and out-colour the lot of them, then that proves something. He wants to beat them at their own game, which is why that analogy makes no sense.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by chokeyouout
It would be a good place to start.Would you go to a baseball school without a cage?A racing school without a track?Wood floors don't mix with being thrown for ippon or suplex's.Training without at leat some padding is plain stupid.BTW, I didnt say those standards justify a Mc Kwoon, you used your head and concluded it on your own.At least someone read my post:( Sniffsniff

Fair enough comment if you are talking about throwing/grappling arts. However this is not a requirement for striking arts, and your statement then seems to imply a lot of striking schools are McKwoons :).

I do see where you are coming from, and if you were trying to be cheeky then fair enough :). However, to steal one of your own analogies, a baseball school doesn't necessarily need a cage, but it definitely helps if it has a field to practice on, bats, balls, and a good coach.

I guess an alternative argument is that if you are training for street encounters, then a cage or mat could be considered unrealistic :)

[neito]

- with the simons karate and guitar studio thing, we must remember that back in the day, many martial arts schools in north america used slightly incorrect names. ed parker even wrote a book called "chinese karate", since people might not know that a book called kung-fu would be about martial arts.

[raving_limerick]

Not to nag, but can somebody still explain this "cage" thing to me? I'm drawing a total blank.

I honestly have no clue what this is and it's really bothering me.

[joedoe]

the cage - as in the ring that they fight in in the UFC etc.

[raving_limerick]

Originally posted by joedoe
the cage - as in the ring that they fight in in the UFC etc.

Ah, many thanks JoeDoe. That makes more sense, but still, why a cage and not just mats? Is there any special significance behind sparring in a cage as opposed to sparring in a ring or on mats? It just seems so expensive...

[joedoe]

I guess it's like how boxing gyms have a boxing ring. Train in the environment that you are training to fight in.

Dunno, maybe chokey can help us out here.

[gazza99]

I was just pointing out that referencing movies as a basis for anything as far as legit kf goes ,is a ridiculous mistake, I was also pointing out that I can be a *****!!! Thanks for you mature response!
Real Kempo or not, everyone has to admit these people are not real martial artists, they have no buisiness being in *buisiness.*


AS to the Thread topic

Challenging the Mcsensi is fine, however do it in an intellectual way, just ask questions you dont think he can answer. Make him look stupid in front of his students, if he gets mad and wants to demo, then fine. Most of the time, especially if you know allot about their art, you can ask just the right questions. I have done this quite a few times, it always works out with me either getting kicked out, or making a friend. If they know there stuff, we spar, exchange techniques..etc...If they are an A** without skill, then I demo stuff that looks much better than theirs, and my logic and knowledge makes them look like a child. The class is immediately aware that some punk kid schooled the instructor. No violence, cops, lawsuits...etc....

Regards,
Gary

[cho]

mckwoons make money off of teaching something they don't really know, I think that's wrong.

But here's how I see it:

A good majority of the people that train at those places are really just wanting exercise or a hobby to do. Most don't want to do hardcore fighting or become a Musashi Miyamoto.
I see mckwoons as a place where people who want the "mysticism" associated with CMA go to get it. Most people who join want to learn CMA because they saw Crouching Tiger or The Matrix and quit after a month. I don't think they should waste a real CMA teacher's time. Those students who really do want to learn a real art will almost always eventually find the teacher they're looking for through persistence. I did.

[joedoe]

I think we have just got to face the fact that no matter what the field is, you are always going to get charlatans. Even if you regulate things, the fakes will still slip through. Just look at medicine - even though it is a regulated field in just about every country, you still get the occasional doctor who is not competent.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by joedoe
I think we have just got to face the fact that no matter what the field is, you are always going to get charlatans. Even if you regulate things, the fakes will still slip through. Just look at medicine - even though it is a regulated field in just about every country, you still get the occasional doctor who is not competent.

Agree with Joedoe.

How can you apreciate the sunshine if you don't now the darkness of a moonless night.
Or something to that effect.
:D

[Johnny Hot Shot]

But there are regulatory commissions set up to punish those charlottes that break the rules or make big mistakes.

If you Dr. misdiagnose you and give you the wrong medicine and makes you sicker. He is Liable and can be punished by the Board.

Lets say a McSensi tells his student that they are learning the True "Shaolin Kung fu" a student goes out and signs up for an open tourney someplace and get his but kicked sparring or worse makes a fool out of himself in a forms competition.

Why is it that the Martial arts are not regulated in this country?

Sure even with set controlls and commisions bad artists will still slip through but at least they can be held accountable when something goes wrong.

You know what really bugs me about the whole McDojo thing.
It's that there are really great MA out there stuggling to make ends meet with 20+ years of experience.
When some punk off the street can walk into a USSD or Temple Kung Fu and become a instructor in less than 2 years running a somewhat profitable McDojo with all there marketing and sales preset for them. It's not fair and it's definately not cool.

These are the McSensei I'm talking about.

[joedoe]

Agreed - the financial situation is sh!tty. It is sad that a true master may struggle financially while a McDojo flourishes. But ultimately the true master has something they will never have - true mastery of a legitimate art. To me that is worth more than millions of dollars.

However, consider this scenario - if there were no McDojos and the true master were to run a successful school with hundreds of students, do you think that maybe the quality of the teaching may suffer because of the volume? Then once the true master dies/retires, what happens? The school ends up a Mc Dojo.

[scotty1]

I agree with both Johnny's last post and Cho's.

I also disagree with Chokey's comments about cages, rings, mats. Well, maybe not mats, but things like that come down to money, and I'd rather learn authentic KF out of some guys living room then sh.it KF in the most well equipped gym.

Good sparring equipment does not equal good sparring.
It just equals money.

Of course both would be nice.:)

[yutyeesam]

let me offer this perspective:
we can't let it upset us too much that a genuine martial arts teacher/school isn't as monetarily successful as McSifu/McKwoon. Let's face it, running a business is just as much a one-upmanship game as sparring is. So the lesser skilled of the game will lag, and maybe even get knocked out.

So what the teacher who is genuine needs to do is learn to play the game better...which ultimately means, meeting the diverse needs of the public while maintaining the art's true form and integrity. Not an easy task, but not impossible.

I've seen it many times: an expert in content of a discipline assumes to be an expert in business or teaching. Those are seperate disciplines that require independent study.

Anyone ever read "Martial Arts America" by Bob Orlando? He talks about the Mcdojo thing with some keen insights.

[GLW]

Regulation for Martial Arts-

OK, why would you want governmental involvement in this? So you like things like the IRS?

The policing of things at the governmental level is done for public safety (cars can kill, doctors can kill, medicine can kill, insurance can wipe out a person's life savings, etc...)

Martial Arts training is done with DISPOSABLE income and is viewed as recreation. Many good traditional teachers do NOT have insurance. This is NOT a good thing. Do you stop going if they don't? Do you even KNOW if your teacher has any form of insurance? Most do not know.

Policing of things is best done by professional organizations for this type of thing. There ARE no widespread organizations that are used. Matter of fact, those who complain the most about the lack of standards are also often the ones who do NOT support, detract from, and do not see the need for organizations. You can't have it both ways.

Who will make the rules? Is anyone here willing to live under the rules imposed by anyone else? I doubt it.

As an aside, thing about how people get into learning ANY Martial Art. They start with a desire to learn - its cool or interesting.... Then they go looking for a teacher. Many simply look in the phone book. To many, location is the first factor. To some, it is the ONLY factor.

Then, they show up to look at a school...knowing nothing about how to know good from bad. They might get lucky and find a good one. If they get there through a friend, they trusted a friend...who probably went down the same path...and may learn from someone - but why should you believe anyone in that...were they REALLY qualified to make the choice of teachers and do they REALLY know who is good?

Then, after all is said and done, the typical person will be willing to fight to prove that their teacher is right on any number of topics.

This is based upon what...? Did they compare 100 teachers? Did they KNOW how to tell if a person is good or bad? Did they do a survey or base this value judgement or statement on anything other than it is THEIR teacher. 90% of the time, the answer to this is NO.

So, we have ill-informed students, many under or un-qualified teachers, no common body of knowledge that a person can go to and learn enough to make an informed choice...and then folks who are willing to fight to defend their opinion based upon nothing.

This is a great area ----NOT.

A last question or two:

How many teachers of how many arts have you personally been exposed to (In a way where you can make some kind of estimation based upon experience and independent study and research as to the quality of the style, teacher, and theories)?

Aside from the "I believe" things, how do you KNOW that what you are doing is worthwhile?

If you are of the opinion that the only thing that matters is fighting ability, why are you not learning from someone who is a known fighter or a member of the Triads? They are known for this...if that is what you want to do.

Is there nothing beyond the physical in your training?

[shaolinboxer]

I am suddenly of the opinion that those who want to go challange Mc Dojos should shut the **** up and do it. See what happens.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Joedoe, In my experience with true masters usually there top students end up teaching newer members of the school. This way the master teaches the teachers and so on therefore insuring that his succesor is qualified.

GLW you said "Who will make the rules? Is anyone here willing to live under the rules imposed by anyone else? I doubt it" we do everyday in this country just try running a stop sign or lighting up a spliff in a restaraunt or bar. sad but true. Imposed rules are Laws in this US of A.

As I see it a regulatory comission on MA instructors would only unify and strenthen the arts in this country. If there were masters of each system on the board they could design a system of testing and certifying qualified instructors.

Insted we have coporate McDojos pumping out greenbelt McSensei.

[shaolinboxer]

Good luck my man.

[GLW]

"As I see it a regulatory comission on MA instructors would only unify and strenthen the arts in this country. If there were masters of each system on the board they could design a system of testing and certifying qualified instructors. "

What instructors? I have been involved in this type of thing for a long time now. The level of a large number of MA isntructors that EVERYONE and I do mean EVERYONE mentions as being top notch is in an unbelievable number of times NOT that high. Am I saying I am better, - NO...I am saying that they are NOT what they are played up to be.

So, who would a commission be made up of? What styles? How do you go about being certified or licensed? These are all big issues. They seem small until you actually have to deal with it.

Case in point. Acupuncture and those who are qualified to do it....

In the state of Texas, there is certification but NOT licensing yet. There is also not exact thrid party insurance company coverage for acupuncturists.

The group who started to do the certification had opened a school of acupuncture (no vested interest there). They got in with the organization as well as state people to shift the requirements in their favor. Many of these people would NOT be able to get certified today under the rules they made up...but they grandfathered themselves.

So...point being, if something that has complete need of licensing like Acupuncture Doctors can't do licensing, certification, etc...without politics, favoritism, and inherent bias, how do you think MA will fair?

This is something that will NOT work at a governmental level (unless you like totalitarianism)...and it is up to the arts to police themselves.

If there were a national organization for a given area (say Chinese Martial Arts) that did truly go into validating and certifying instructors and schools and then had certification seals for it....and then let the public know that their seal was like the good housekeeping seal of approval, AND they got the CMA community to buy into it...this would work.....

Good luck in getting even to step one.....

Barnum was right...and folks who do not learn caveat emptor will fall into the category of one born every minute.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

And now were back to the topic of this post.

Is anyone is San Diego willing to join in on my quest?

[GLW]

THAT is exactly the problem.

You are an army of one. You have NO authority to police anyone but yourself...Me neither so if you heed my words, great - if not, unless you were to jack with me or do something morally wrong or hurt others, I would not care - NOT my business.

But, what makes you KNOW that you are right and they are wrong. They MAY very well be total frauds. You doing what you are doing does nothing for this. In fact, if you were to enter many legitimate schools, a challenge would be turned down. Not out of fear of you - fear of lawsuits....

Doing what you are doing, you are giving those you rail against a legitmate grievance to file charges on you...trespassing, assault, harassment....and if you developed a reputation for it, you could well end up with a restraining order on things to do with martial arts entirely. It is NOT a good path to go down.

Unfortunately, the frauds are out there and there is not much you can do about it in today's society.

From an instructors viewpoint, even if you fight the person who comes in for a challenge, it is a no win situation. If you lose, you lose face. If you win, the visitor-challenger may go out and say he won anyway, or he may take it like a man, or he may file charges on you, or he may sue you, or he may say nothing and come back and torch your school. I have known people who have had ALL of these things happen to them...except for losing because they did NOT lose to the challenger. So, even a qualified teacher may take the road of discretion and say no.....

But - you as a crusade of one have only your opinion. If you were working in another way in legal manners with the backing of a coalition of instructors out to better things...well that is another story - but there are still better ways to do this.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

You like I said before it's not like I go into ther places blasing I'm here to kick your a$$.

I actually do a little research on there supposed style and I ask intellegent questions and usually stump the McSensei.

You see my friend sometimes words can be more devistating than fists.

Nothing looks worse that a instructor who is unknowledgable about the arts or especially their own style.

Ask a USSD instructor where Kenpo originated and he will tell you the Shaolin temple when we all know that it is a Hawaiian art.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

You like I said before it's not like I go into ther places blasing I'm here to kick your a$$.

I actually do a little research on there supposed style and I ask intellegent questions and usually stump the McSensei.

You see my friend sometimes words can be more devistating than fists.

Nothing looks worse that a instructor who is unknowledgable about the arts or especially their own style.

Ask a USSD instructor where Kenpo originated and he will tell you the Shaolin temple when we all know that it is a Hawaiian art.

I'm not out there picking fights just for the sake of my own ego.

[diego]

actually do a little research on there supposed style and I ask intellegent questions and usually stump the McSensei.

When i first read that i thought you said stomp:D

[HuangKaiVun]

It would be neat )(if a bit gory) to see what would happen if a guy like Bruce Lee was one of the McKwoon instructors being challenged.

Here's a guy who doesn't have a legimate lineage, had only two years in formal WC training, had no further training afterwards, and developed everything on his own. Then he went out and made his own style with his own school.

Bruce Lee went out and taught Siu Lum Tao and Chum Kiu to his American students despite not having learned the complete WC system or having been authorized by Yip Man to do so. He went on to write a book on old school kung fu methods: Chinese Gung Fu, the Philosophical art of Self Defense. His art falls under no established lineage but his own.

One more thing: the "regulatory commission" - that was the old Chinese hierarchy in his Chinatown which tried to shut down his school but COULDN'T because he was willing to fight them physically. Wong Jak Man and Linda Lee can both talk all they want, but the bottom line is that Lee was able to continue his school long after that initial confrontation.

In short, Bruce Lee qualifies for "McSensei" status.

Then again, one can challenge a Bruce Lee if he wishes.

[Zapf Dingbat]

GLW, just curious.... do you vote on the Libertarian ticket?

:D

[GLW]

I can understand the questions and words. After revealing a person for an idiot, to go further serves no purpose unless the idiot needs to be killed...(hard one to justify).

From my experience, the best weapon for such people is knowledge. Case in point, I used to teach at a health club. They called and asked, it was a good deal, I did not have to do any administrivia, I could teach anyway I wanted to...in short it was a nice way to have a school and none of the liabilities.

Went fine for several months. Then they added in a Savate class. Up to this time, I had avoided teaching sword or other weapons (insurance issues - or so I feared), I was VERY careful about applications and fighting...not a real problem since I prefer to make sure people have strong basics before teaching applications and I prefer to do those classes on a by invitation only basis (I won't teach a person who is ALREADY a jerk how to fight and become a dangerous jerk). Well, the Savate instructor proved to be rude, unknowledgeable about his art and safe training methods (he was teaching sword fighting without teaching basics and with NO protective equipment and then doing less than 5 minutes of warmup and going straight into full power kicks on a target and then with beginners working with each other...limited supervision...a set of injuries waiting to happen. On seeing this, I started teaching sword, started a special applications class, and watched as his class dwindled to nothing due to injuries, coming to my class, etc....

Then they had a kids Karate teacher. when they introduced him to me, he went on about all of his black belts. literally "I have a 3rd degre in Tae Kwon do - that's Korean, you know, an 3rd degree black belt in Shotokan - that's Korean too...." I let him go on. I was wondering if the Japanese Karatedo Federation would like to know that Shotokan had been changed to a Korean art :).... I then watched his class.... Later, when asked, I had to report to the department head that the guy was incompetent and hazardous to the well being of his students...He was let go and I did not do anything other than speak the truth.

So, knowledge and a few statements to open ears can do more than many other harsher tactics.

As for my political leanings....wellllll no party but definitely a TOTAL independent....old style independent Texan too.....what can I say "Make sure you'r right...then go ahead on..."

[diego]

didnt he start like 54 and left hongkong in 59, and most major wingchun sifu under ipman such as hawkins cheung, wong shun leung, and william cheung, they all trained with or taught him until he left, and they had contact until he died, as they were friends?.
Thats what i read, and supposedly from what i get, all these other styles, he didnt claim lineage from these instructors, and then take thier better techniques and make his jeetkunedo, he worked with and borrowed from stratagies traded. Thats what i get, maybe instructors are just polite, maybe bruce was a *****, and whined thier methods, and ronald macdonasized his gung-fu:confused:

[respectmankind]

I am not sure what Bruce's skill was. I know his fitness level was insane. But as far as his philosophy goes, I agree with it and use it (modified) on my own training.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yes diego, but Lee did not learn the entire Wing Chun system.

To my knowledge, he never learned the Biu Tze, 6-half pole, or butterfly swords.

Nor did any of them or his sifu grant him official "Wing Chun" status. It went so far that Yip Man tried to deny that Lee was a disciple in his Mok Yan Jong book.

The point is that by whatever the standard, Bruce Lee most definitely fits the "McKwoon" standard as laid out here.

So do a few other LEGITIMATE martial artists, I'm sure.

[Gigante]

Originally posted by Xebsball
I dont think there are many schools with cages man


My school has a cage. With metal bars. They put me in it every class so I can't hurt anyone.