What do you think of this guys stances?

[IronFist]

http://www.tcp.com/~mint/Hung-Gar.html

In his horse stance, the feet are outside of the knees and the feet are turned out.

In his "crane beak" pose he looks like he's leaning to his right... his head of right of his foot and his balance looks off.

But what do I know?

IronFist

[diego]

even if he was retarded, its hunggar, its history is established, who cares what the current dudes look like, as long as they can teach you the original skill, then hopefully with your big ****, you can be as good as WongFei!.:)

[IronFist]

Yeah, asking questions is trolling :rolleyes:

Anyone with anything meaningful to say can reply, too :)

IronFist

[diego]

its not like the guy says hes wongfeis sun, if kunglek sees this you'll be banned:eek:

this seriously is a troll, and i know thats not your intent, think about it.:cool:

[diego]

not what do you think of this guys skill level?:D
serious thats just evil.

[diego]

but went to a hunggar board and asked them how to do the moves, yaknow. i mean its cool one bad post out of a thousand.

[SifuAbel]

A little high, but not horribly. They do represent the stance changes. Foot positions and body postures vary from style to stlye.

[scotty1]

People do horse stance different ways. I don't think there is one "correct" way of doing it. I don't think that looks a bad way of doing it, as long as its serving the purpose what does it matter?

[red5angel]

Who put a quarter in Diego?! :eek:

Ironfist, its a legite question, and I agree with you, he looks a little off, doesnt mean he isnt a good hung gar practitioner, just could have been a bad shot.

[scotty1]

Does anybody agree/disagree with me about the horse stance?

[guohuen]

I'm sorry, I don't get it at all. That's unlike anything I've ever seen. I can't even duplicate it without being out of balance.

[HopGar]

It doesn't look off balance to me. Hey Diego, look at the straight punch and lemme know what ya think about that overly bent leg. He claims its based on White Crane (and most likely Hop Gar).

Peace

[HopGar]

Anyone else think that tigar claw stance is too long? I do.

[Ray Pina]

The horse is hard to judge without locking legs and testing it, same with his bow and arrow. Its a matter of does he know how and when to use them.

BUT

The black guy's bow and arrow. Look at his back, the arch, he has a breaking point. The tiget claw will mean di(k if he takes a rush because he will bend back at that point and break.

The side kick is a perfect example of HOW NOT TO KICK. All his weight is going backwards to try and to a fancy high kick. I'd take that kick head on and just toss him back, NO POWER.

When kicking, power, focus and intention should be: ------>

[Royal Dragon]

The stances all appear to have too much pulling back of the soulders, the Bow looks good, except for the excessive bend in the back leg.

The big ouch is in the photo which Is "suposed" to be a Cat? stance. There is no sinking, and it looks like he is leaning BACK to get the weight off the foot, using the principals of a See-Saw, instead of rooting and sinking with the wieght centered on the supporting leg like a standing post as he should.

As for the Tiger claw in bow stance, if you look, his body is arched, I think it's all suposed to be a straight line. He is VERY tight in the hipps, and appears to be concentraighting more on going low than his structure. He needs to sink the hipps, straighten the back, and tuck the tail bone a bit to relive the excessive arch problem he has. Basically, instead of postitioning the hipp correctly, he's compensating by over arching the back.

I am well aware of this problem, as it used to be a big one for me personally, especially after my back went out.

[Ray Pina]

You're right about his cat stance, I forgot to mention that.

The scary thing: if you were going to post picks on your web site, wouldn't you pick the best of the best?

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, it would be

[fa_jing]

Well, first of all, this guys' kungfu is probably better than mine. I mean, he runs a school and stuff. But from what I've seen of Hung Gar, I'd say these are not your ideal stances. The square horse could be lower. The cat stance does not look useful, it looks uncomfortable. The kick is rather strange, no forward momentum as E-fist said, hands at sides, might be ok for training but doesn't mean you can flap your elbows like a chicken, and he's not looking at the target. Now, I think we should remember that this is just a local branch, the guy has no bio touting special abilities, and the photography is non-expert. I don't think it's a bad page at all for someone who lives in the area and is looking to see if they want to join this school. Well, except that I couldn't find an address or telephone number listed.

-FJ

[shaolinboxer]

I don't think you can tell about the quality of a stance unless you try pushin and pulling on the the guy.

Stances are a guide to build stability. So really, is is perfection of form or perfection of stability that is important. I say the latter.

[Hau Tien]

The "cat stance", as it has been called in this thread, (In Seven Stars Praying Mantis it is called "Ding Bo", as on the web site) is quite useful, and EXTREMELY hard to hold for extended periods. I've used it many times in competition and just general sparring and find it to work quite well.

The idea behind it is to allow your front leg to be almost free of weight, so it can be used for extremely fast strikes to the groin, etc.

However, the person holding the stance in the picture IS leaning too far back, as was stated eariler in the thread. Instead of leaning back to remove the pressure from the front foot, the person should actually sink his or her weight to the back leg... sink straight down, though... not back.

One more thing... generally, the upper body is turned to the side while in this stance... "Small target" as my Sifu would say:)

Just my 2 Cents:)

Hau Tien

[fa_jing]

Yes Hau Tien, just to clarify, I didn't mean "The cat stance does not look useful in general," but rather "This individual's cat stance does not look useful," referring to the fact that the photo displays that a simple push to the chest would cause this guy to fall over backwards. Thank you for your info on the cat stance. One more thing- this guy mugs too much for the camera. He should be looking in a different direction for some of the movements, I think.

-FJ

[diego]

like that one poster wrote, prolly you cant jusfge these individuals unless you push and pull em, as if you look at thier faces they look like thier trying to look COILED like good kungfu masters when they perform"havent seen many lately- but im still young!" so prolly trying to mimic old pictures of kf footage, they prolly exited and didnt realize he arched his back, etc?.

****ers, you got me checking in the mirror, looking at my stances.:)

[David Jamieson]

posed photos can often times be criticized. it's not that easy to strike up a pose that is supposed to be in motion.

as for horse stances, well there are huge differences in horse stance height and depth in many asian martial arts and even in Kung Fu. Look at a wing chun horse compared to a hung gar horse.
also a fighting stance differs from a training stance, a static stance differs from a mobile stance and so on.

Kung Fu is adapted to the body of the player without losing essence of form. The essence is there. and it's true, a photo is no judge of power or ability, well, except for photos of knockouts at the moment of striking the opponent into unconciousness :D

peace

[diego]

what i learnt, the lead kne only dips about three inches maybe four, im 6'4. and the back knee should be inch from the floor in that tstance- close version of the crane sidebow stance.
then the back leg should be No-Wieghted, as the mantis guy mentioned for quick kicks evasions, etc.
what i get the whole thing is the lead leg is the root, bend that slightly, and the back leg is your lieng leg" have you heard that saying, one hand lies the other tells the truth!?"
and how i understand to get whip power in hopgar for that punch, its the initial, planting of the lead, then the rear dips, THEN ALL THE FORCE FROM THAT EVASION TO THE LEFT VS A RPUNCH; say loads/coils into the dipped knee, then you whip it , and it seems to load into your right ribcage, into your right shoulder, and tricep and elbow, THEN you punch with the bottom of your forearm above elbow!, meaning you hit with the index and middle knuckles like in that picture, but thats just the tip of the knife, you have to stab your foot long knife" forearm,wrist to fist and knuckle!." thierfore applying the hopgar principal of punching thru u opp, flooding his center, etc.
basically most my techs were we use that crouch stance from what i have learned, its usally of the closekneed variety ie gaurding your jewellery
when in a sidebow stance, we heavily use front bow stance, with the rear heel raised knee bent.
:) :)

the tiger i really assume he was just poseing, its not that hard of a stance:)


Also, we never ever do these punches upright back, thier is always a dip in the upperbody, shoulders somewhat coiled by your lead asking hand prodding, straightening the spine, also helping you sink more, wich is similar to a boxers duck and weave, tho i think my techniques may be more internal influenced from what you study, you should ask your sifu if you can put some video up on your site?.
peace

[Fu-Pow]

Kung Lek-

True there are subtle differences in style. However, the basic things, like keeping your back straight, remain the same.

In any style of kung fu the idea is to relax to the upper body (especially the shoulders and lower back) and make the lower body solid. This keeps the center of gravity low. A stiff upper body will raise the center of gravity will get you know where but tossed on your ass.

In these pictures if appears the practitioner is leaning back and probably putting the line of gravity on his lower back instead of distributing down the length of the spine. This is bad posture and in any style bad form.

Just an opinion.

Fu-Pow Kuen

[joedoe]

I don't do hung gar, so I have no way of comparing if those stances are correct or not. According to what I have learned, they do not look good. But what would I know? :)

[bamboo_ leaf]

You know they don’t look good, this is very important.
The next part is to define what not looking good means.
This may take awhile.

it would seem that you know more then you know.

[anton]

No matter how weird or unusual this guy's build is, and despite the fact that I have never trained in hung gar, or tried to push/pull the guy - there is no way that the cat stance in those photos would be effective, he is definitely off balance.
Maybe those two pictures were badly timed.

[Dragon]

The stances look forced yet lazy to me.
The horse is high and the body looks a tad too rigid in all of the stances.

I would guess this is more than likely due to the fact they were taken for photo purposes. Notice how the white gentlemans focus is on the camera and not on his target direction in each stance? Even the kick he is looking at the camera.

The Black gentleman is more focused on his stance, and the depth of his stances are great for conditioning, though obviously you would shorten them up considerably in any true combative application.

[HuangKaiVun]

Looks fine to me.

I judge not by MY standards, but by those held by the practitioners in the picture.

Evidently, they place a great emphasis on having aesthetically beautiful static postures. By this standard, they look great.

It takes a lot of strength and skill to hold picture pleasing postures like these.

[YoungHungFut]

In speaking only for the HUNG FUT System of Kung Fu his stances would be a little off, perhaps they are perfect for Hung Gar, that I do not know.

HORSE STANCE: Is ok as far as width. In the Hung Fut System the horse stance is wide and very low. However, the knees would be pushed out to create tension and the feet would be parallel to each other and not pushed out. So in many ways the exact oposite of this guy. Knees out, feet in, creates tension and stability...feet out, knees in seems less stable. Also, the shoulders would idealy be more relaxed.

CAT STANCE: Like others have said. Stance should be "sunk" with at least 90% weight on the back foot/leg, not leaning back. Also, in the Hung Fut cat stance our shoulders are NOT square to the target or opponant. Our shoulders our turned to the side to minimize vulnerability. The cat stance is a "thin" stance, not square.

[Kristoffer]

I think some of the stances looked kinda akward, and unbalanced.

[Hai_To]

This gentleman's stances definitely look a little funky, but posing for a picture is one thing and performing is another.

My main problem with this website is on the main page. That is where they have a link to the 5 Deadly Venoms Iron Palm training method and book. This makes the school look a trifle shady to me.

[No_Know]

The Kick: the body Can be back because there Is forward momentum.

The young man has long legs as far as the long stance.

One called, Hop Gar,

There is no straight punch here. If you don't take notice of all the picture where the young man is doing a bent Knees stance or Kneeling stance while delivering Two punches simultaneously (left and right) you might take it for a straight punch with overly bent rear knee. But it's appearantly not that.

Scotty1,

There is only one way to do a Horse-riding stance. It varies according to level of skill. There are variations based on ability of the student who became teacher and taught/allowed it His way. They all have their benefit but many are stops along the way to the one horse-riding stance. Feet parallel and thighs like sitting on a chair. I think in general people can't be called wrong. Merely, directed closer to most correct to the understanding of that instructor or School.

[Sho]

That horse stance looks more like a wushu ma bu. In wushu, the ma bu is often done so that the feet are not parallel with the knees and also the toes do not necessarily point directly forward.

This gentleman has way too much stiffness on his shoulders. In hung kuen's case, I don't know how the stances are performed, but I know that in many styles the shoulders should be relaxed and they would lean a bit forward, thus making the centre of gravity focus on the lower body (as Fu-Pow also mentioned).

These stances have already been critisized quite thoroughly and I agree on the fact that the cat stance is too unstable. As it has been told, the stance should sink down rather than crouching and leaning back.

You never know, some of these postures might be done purposely this way. For example, in my opinion the wushu version of the horse stance looks better than the one which is more stable. This might draw attention to some people who do not have any former experience/knowledge about martial arts and thus encouraging them more to join the school. I don't know. But I'm sure this school is a decent one, regardless of the vague photos. I guess I'm a bit tired, so I'll end my post here.

[Chang Style Novice]

I can't comment about the guy's stances, but I like his sense of humor.
Special!!! Secret to usage of the Monkey Pole!!

Grab the pole firmly in both hands and swing it as hard as you can. Make sure the pole comes in contact with your target. Repeat as necessary.

[PLCrane]

Not much to add here. I agree with the folks who see breaks in the structure. Oh yeah, on the crane stance, one could argue that he *is* balanced - his raised leg is counterbalanced by his upper body leaning the other way. And his butt is sticking out. And his supporting knee is caving in medially. Left shoulder and elbow look like they're too high. I tried to imitate the posture, and now I want to push on this guy and make some corrections.

Ironfist, don't doubt your eyes - you see just fine.

[Crimson Phoenix]

RD, I agree...
Scotty, I disagree, there is definitely one correct way of holding a horse stance: your power, all of it, has to go down, and not sideways: if you can't hold your horse stance on an ice skating field, or if you can't hold it while standing on bricks laid on their sides (or their ends if you're better), then it means your power goes sideways instead of going down in the ground.
Aside from that, there are other details: your feet should NOT point out for a very simple reason: it's much harder and more awkward to launch a kick (specially a stop kick) if your feet are pointing out too much (problem of weight repartition and too much opening of the hips).
Ma Bu should not just be a stance to strenghten your legs or look cool in forms, but a combat-applicable stance. If you can't root and specially kick from it, it's a dead horse stance.

[guohuen]

I definetly agree with Crimson Phoenix. There are some principles that apply to all styles. There are only three possilities here.
1. This person has no training.
2. This person had poor training, or was a poor student.
3. This person is deliberately misleading people in proper techniques for whatever reason.

[Braden]

Not to comment on this specific case at all, but just as a general remark: I think "there is only one correct way to do it" is going to be a false statement, regardless of what 'it' refers too.

http://www.braille.uwo.ca/~charles/chen-taiji-workshop/blue_dragon2.jpg

[SevenStar]

there is only one correct way to spell 'it' :D

[Braden]

Punk. :p

[Fu-Pow]

CAT STANCE: Like others have said. Stance should be "sunk" with at least 90% weight on the back foot/leg, not leaning back. Also, in the Hung Fut cat stance our shoulders are NOT square to the target or opponant. Our shoulders our turned to the side to minimize vulnerability. The cat stance is a "thin" stance, not square.

Interesting point. I think that the cat stance actually has two configurations, you can either square the hips and shoulders forward. Or you can turn them to the side a bit (as you described). The first way will be a little bit higher stance and the second one a little bit lower. Some styles only do it one way, but in my style we have both. The same can be said of Gong Ma, you can either turn your hips and shoulders forward or have them back at a 45 degree angle. It just depends on the style and the movement. Internal arts would probably frown on some of these configurations but from the external stylists viewpoint....if it works it works and the more options available the better.

A few notes about horse stance. I think that the feet forward/knees out thing is a little questionable. The main reason is that it puts a lot of tension on the outside of the knee. Your knee joint is basically a hinge joint like on a door. It has very little room to twist. By turning the feet forward you "twist" the joint and put pressure to the outside of the knee. A similar problem occurs if you don't open the hips and let the knees collapse inward. You get pressure on the outside of the knees. So I think the best horse stance is where you open the knees so that the knee sits roughly over the ankle joint but also let your feet turn outward a little bit ( with the idea of point them forward) so that you don't hurt yourself. The width of the stance should be about 2 time shoulder width. You should see a square shape formed by the thighs and calf muscles on the inside of your stance. The back should be straight and the natural curve of the spine maintained. Don't tuck you but under or stick it out. Also, the lower your stance the more you will naturally lean forward. In all your stances make sure that the knee does not extend past the upper/top portion of the foot.


Just some thoughts....

[Leto]

The horse stance...

It is interesting to note that in Okinawan karate, jigotai dachi (horse stance) is taught with feet pointed out, as this man has. (however, in karate the feet should still be postitioned parallel with the knees, not spread as wide as the stance in the picture) However, Naihanchi dachi, which is also called horse riding stance, is the same as the kung fu horse stance, with feet parallel, or even pointed in slightly, knees twisted out creating tension and rooting. It is said that the Naihanchi kata is one of the most traditional kata, preserved from the Chinese forms that Matsumura learned. This has much in common with the southern kung fu styles like wing chun and white crane. I wonder where the feet-out horse stance, which is used in most other karate kata (besides naihanchi and sanchin), comes from however. If the person on that website has learned authentic hung gar, and is showing it how he learned it, perhaps some southern Chinese styles developed the foot-turned-out stance somehow...(maybe it was a lack of communication or skill in certain students who passed on the material through the years). Both ways were transmitted to Okinawans, in both Naha Te (Goju ryu), and Shuri Te (Shorin Ryu)

Or maybe the guy on the website has practiced some style of karate also, old habits do not die easily, even when you know the 'correct' way to do something.

[diego]

This has much in common with the southern kung fu styles like wing chun and white crane. I wonder where the feet-out horse stance, which is used in most other karate kata (besides naihanchi and sanchin), comes from however.

isnt this the chinese toilet stance, toes out?..Prolly a japanese master learnt the style, but years later he couldnt remember if it was toes front or out, But he remembered always seeing his chinese master and his students doing the toes out when they would take a dump, So then this method of transmission:p
was certified as the correct foundation of power manipulationg structures!.

[YoungHungFut]

The reason why your feet remain parallel and your knees bow out slightly is EXACTLY to put stress on the knee. It is true that the knee is a "hinged joint" but it is held together by ligaments. These ligaments, like muscles, can be strengthened. By putting stress on the knees, but not overly stressing, one can strengthen these ligaments. One of MANY reasons why this is important is to strengthen the knee area against low side kicks to the vulnerable knee joint.

Just my 2 cents.