Explanation of long fist and short strikes

[Tainan Mantis]

The following information is for an article on TJPM wooden dummy that is being written by Mantis 108.
I post it here for everyone's critique.

The Ming dynasty general Tanghsun wrote in his chapter Wubien," Short strikes for close, long fist for far and open."

To paraphrase The Complete Volume on Chinese Wushu page 780.

"From a distance use fists, palms and feet. When close use elbows, knees and chin na. When bodies lean on each other use hips, shoulders, back and takedowns."

This follows the logic of TJPM's Taidzu 64 short strikes two person training format. It consists mostly of these types of short range techniques.
My paraphrased quote also follows the applications of the 18 Lohan Gung preserved in some PM schools.

Taidzu 32 postures long fist and Wen family 72 moving fist short strikes are two famous methods from the Ming dynasty. It is historically significant to note that Sheng Xiao Dao Ren's 18 Family Sonnet contains...
#1 Taidzu's Longfist is the beginning.
#4 Wenyuan's short strikes are more uncanny.

Later, more info on the #72.

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan,

Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it. :)

If I may:

[The Ming dynasty general Tanghsun wrote in his chapter Wubien," Short strikes for close, long fist for far and open."

To paraphrase The Complete Volume on Chinese Wushu page 780. ]

I see you are going by that definition. However, I am more inclined to use the definition outlined in Taijiquan discourse (Wang Zhong Yu?), which is "Long fist is like the Long Rivers (ie Yellow river and Yangzi river) it flows endlessly." Taijiquan was base on the 32 stances of the Taizu Chang Quan. It was said that each stance in the Chang Quan was in fact a series of short strikes. They are linked together to have a flow; thus, Changquan was borned. This is same as GM Chiu told us. IMHO, the push hand drills in Taijiquan is similar in concept as PM's Rolling and leaking drill where individual technique of the form can be drilled from it as a launch pad. It is important to remember that Song Taizu was a military officier. He rank was equvilant to modern day colonel in the army. He was also famous for "street fighting". So his 32 stances would be a reflection of that according to legend.

["From a distance use fists, palms and feet. When close use elbows, knees and chin na. When bodies lean on each other use hips, shoulders, back and takedowns."]

GM Chiu summerized in 6 words "Yuan Jao Da, Gun Jao Ding" (far away we strike, close by we knock/topple)

[This follows the logic of TJPM's Taidzu 64 short strikes two person training format. It consists mostly of these types of short range techniques.
My paraphrased quote also follows the applications of the 18 Lohan Gung preserved in some PM schools.]

I think I might not have done a good job in conveying the concept of Taizu Duan Da through. Duan Da (short strikes) in TJPM at the beginning stage, one will learn the "kill" which is pretty much basic self defense requirement. Intermediate stage, one will see all kinds of counters and anti counters. This flows like the long fist except there is no "limit". This stage is particularly fasinating when 2 adepts are going at it. It's very beautiful to watch. This becomes martial art (an expression). Final stage, one will be able to do the first two stage at will. A good exponent of this stage can execute a move (even a takedown move) and still take good care of the opponent (not hurt him/her badly). That is done with great skill. As you can see, the only difference in Changquan and Duanda is that Changquan is linked together as a form. Duanda are not linked together as a form but can be taught in groups or levels. I explain this in detail here because I would like to address the Discourse Of Short Strikes (Duanda Lun) of Sheng Xian Dao Ren (SXDR) below.

Regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

"Taidzu 32 postures long fist and Wen family 72 moving fist short strikes are two famous methods from the Ming dynasty. It is historically significant to note that Sheng Xiao Dao Ren's 18 Family Sonnet contains...
#1 Taidzu's Longfist is the beginning.
#4 Wenyuan's short strikes are more uncanny."

SXDR's 18 Family Sonnet's is in my most humble opinion is the most misinterpreted material by most PM school in modern days. I do not wish to get into that yet because it will take volumes to sort it out. I can give a few reasons for now. BTW, I will rework the 18 style article which I previously released both here and at the TJPM forum. I will release an updated version soon in lights of new found material (just saw the Chinese version). Here is a tid bit:

[A Poem Concerning the 18 Styles that Make Up Praying Mantis

Version Four

Provided by personal contact of Late Sifu Eric Ishii’s (Roland Summer)
Note – Not in order with the other listings (i.e. Version 1-3)

Additional Remarks by Robert Hui

Oct 31, 2001]

1) It is erroniously presumed that it is a poem because there seems to be a rhyme. If it is real a poem, it would be a poem with very low literal value from a literature perspective.

2) The repeated use of the processive word "de" (the third word in each phrase) is not common in older literatures. It is more in vogue in Ming and Ching dynasties.

3) There is a pairing of phrase (ie phrase 1 & 2 together has a meaning) see below.

4) Missing important words in the translated versions. see below.

5) The entire discourse is in sonnet format not poem format. It also follows a type of written format that demands a thesis, supporting statment, example and conculsion. It also requires to answer the 5 Ws (what, where, who, when, why) and How. This are satified by the discourse in sonnet format.

6) The title of the said poem was totally disregarded for whatever purpose. It is Discourse of Short Strikes (Duanda Lun). Lun in Chinese is discourse, which can be done in sonnet format but in poem format it will sound odd and vague in meaning. That defeats the purpose of a discourse.

[1: Cheng Kuen of Tai Jo (Long Fist) Tai Jo was the first Emperor of the Sung Dynasty. The Style contains big motions, exaggerating, and is very common in Taiwan

RE: Tai Jo (Tai Tzu Men) Changquan was popular from Shantung province as far as Henan province during Wong Long’s time. Henan Shaolin Temple was said to offer it in their curriculum at the time. In TCPM, Wong Long first learn this style from Sifu Wong Gar Chung, who also taught him the famous 12 Characters Principle, which later became the outstanding principle among all Northern Praying Mantis styles. ( New Martial Hero Magazine). At least 2 TCPM lineage holders - Grandmaster Hau Chi Yuen and Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai did trained in Tai Tzu Men.

2: Tong Bei Kuen of Hong Tong (Shadow Fist/ AKA Ape Style)

RE: See #6]

1) Most people look at this 2 separately because they disregarded the last word in each line. For #1 it is "head/beginning" and for #2 it is "mother". This left out caused the break down of the entire discourse. There is a important proverb in Chinese medicine which said "Chi is the commander of blood and blood is the mother of Qi." The first 2 lines inferred the same concept. XSDR was an adept in Chinese medicine and a Taoist. The relation of Qi and blood is most fundamental to martial, medicial, and spiritual practices in Chinese. So it is not difficult in seeing the connections. Changquan (logic) is the head/commander as in Qi and the Tong Bei (dynamics) is the mother/supporting role as in blood. This sets the tone for Duanda as discussed in my previous post.

2) the 5W1H for the first line as an example is as follow:

When? Since Song (historic time) and through out combat (usage time)

Who is it from? It came from Song Taizu

Where does it apply? it was used by Military application and applies to hand to hand combat

Why is it important as the head? It is used as the underlying theme/logic of combat

What is involved? All aspects that is included in the Taizu Changquan training.

How is it done? It should have the commanding presences of the Taizu Changquan

3) the rest of the sonnet is similar in structure.

[Later, more info on the #72.]

Love to hear more about the #72 thanks. BTW, of interesting note, many of characters of the PM 12 charaters principle is in the sonnet. We can also see some 8 hard 12 soft terminologies in the sonnet as well. Lot's of stuff the chew on. ;)

Anyway, I am tired and hungry. Will have to return to this later. Ciao for now. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Well, as far as I have known, the ShrBaChaTsonFa is a song, poem-like song, rather than a official poem. Kind like DaYoShi. It was made into song so it will be easier to remember and teach.

GM Wei often said "Yuan ti jin da chie tei shuai." That gives the long and short advantage of kick, strick, and throw by distance.

GM Wei also said "Yi dan er li shan kung se yi" which says that in application, the dan--courage make up the first element. No courage don't fight. 2nd element is li--physical power, if your physical power is too weak in compare to you opponent, better avoid fight (that is get your basic health first). 3rd element--kung, that is how handy your skill and how many time you have spend on the art, this will determin how wise your moves are and how firm your foundations are. 4th yi--artistic. That comes with your personality and experience to reach that level as add on to the above condition.

these are some example of simplest ryhme-just like these poem like songs(but that is not poem at all)-make learners easy to remember.

talk later