Wing Chun Riddle

[Ray Pina]

OK, this is for lower- to Mid-level WC players.

If your style's mantra is: The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Why then, when someone is on top of your bridge, do you run the hand?

OK senior guys, don't help out your younger brothers just yet, let them do their home work.

[scotty1]

Wouldn't this be better off on the WC forum?

[Ray Pina]

You're right. I just posted it there too. Thanks. But the question fits eaqually well to Hung Gar, S. Mantis and probbally pretty much any style that incorporates sensitivity Chi Sau-like drills.

What do you think?

[scotty1]

"What do you think?"

If that was directed at me, then I don't have a clue. Never done Chi Sau.

But I'm flattered you thought I might know..;) :D

[Mantis9]

Here's my thought. Though I'm a NPM guy, I think that this would apply.

The WC mantra is a two ways street. The shortest distance between your opponents fists and his/her target is a straight line. You want to prevent that from happening, right? So, follow their hand allows you to be aware of where it might be headed.

In PM this is called the third arm principle. Your awareness of your opponents arm gives you control over his arm as well as your original two. Therefore, you have three arms working for you.

I hope I understood your post correctly.

Thats my shiling.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

Why then, when someone is on top of your bridge, do you run the hand?


What does "run the hand" mean?

IronFist

[fa_jing]

I don't practice only strict Wing Chun, but from what I know Wing Chun has more than just one mantra. Another I have heard is "hand on top is the superior position." And this only applies when the hands are about solar plexus height or lower, I estimate. Also, running hand is only one possible response, and in general the response depends on the opponents energy. Usually if a person's hand is on top of your forearm, they are exerting downward pressure. "Don't fight force with force."
Here's one from Tai Chi: "Keep the hands high."
Should I get into why the hand on top is superior?

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Hmm, in terms of this forum I might be considered a senior--but it's an interesting subject and I wanted to offer my thoughts. Good riddle, E-Fist.
-FJ

[hunt1]

Must laugh at the question.Mantis9 WC doesnt follow the hand.FaJing hand on top is not really superior otherwise your energy response is right on.

[Ray Pina]

Here's how I look at it.

Say someone throws a lead straight. It is blocked/jammed. There hand is now on top, as some have said, superior.

Many, upon hitting this barrier, will run the hand and turn it into a hook (boxers). Wing Chun guys, when fighting or chi sauing, will try to run there hand to gain the top bridge, go into a fuk sau. (I know many will also bong sau here, but that is a complete other topic).

OK, so when the boxer turns it into a hook or the WC guys tries to run and fuk sau, the person who blocked/jammed, merely has to shoot that same hand out. It will hit/jam the boxer again at the shoulder, stapping the hook. If you try just to run and gain position (superior again) to be on top, no need to shoot that hand to the shoulder and its not at the throat. That running is a waist of time.

OK, back to position. Your right hand under their left bridge. How about this option. Mimic the mostion of pounding a huge beer mug, lifting the arm and stepping inside. This is direct. Look for the incoming right hand. If you can beat the punch by being direct, go for it. If not, in wing chu terms, Tan sau that blow, now, your right, which you lifted to get inside -- which should look like this \/ but only up, where the point of the V is at there chest shoudler -- you can now bring it down on them.

A student of my master pulled this off on me over and over again when I was studying WC and S. Mantis. It woke me up to a different way of viewing things.

Another simply thing to do. If your underneath, instead of running, shoot your fist into their bicep. Believe it or not, you are now ontop, controlling them where it counts, above the elbow, the source of power. Let their tricep flap in the breeze.

This is just a bad explanation of my bad understanding, but I find it much more worth while then: I'm on top. No, now you are on top. OK, I need to get back on top. ****, we're both on top. Who has that time?

[Kuen]

I don't think you'd need to be very high level in WC to realize it is more in line with WC principles just to move in and hit. Personally, I'd just drop my elbow and crack him in the jaw with a chau sao. Attempting to run would be a waste of time.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Why then, when someone is on top of your bridge, do you run the hand?

What does "run the hand" mean?

IronFist

[shaolinboxer]

I beleive it is the same as slipping. That is, to use the other persons arm as a guide to the target and a point of control.

Am I correct?

EF - I think I see what you are saying about coming from underneath and rolling the elbow in for dominant position. This particular technique was a favorite of a sifu of mine (deceased) name Wai Ming Chau. He was nutty as a fruitcake, but he could gain dominant postion from using this rolling elbow very well.

You can rollover and head straight in, or you can roll back, using the forearm to guide the opponent's force past to open up their side or take their balance.

[fa_jing]

Again, I'm no WC master but it may be an issue of how you are taught:

"
OK, so when the boxer turns it into a hook or the WC guys tries to run and fuk sau, the person who blocked/jammed, merely has to shoot that same hand out. It will hit/jam the boxer again at the shoulder, stapping the hook. If you try just to run and gain position (superior again) to be on top, no need to shoot that hand to the shoulder and its not at the throat. That running is a waist of time.

"

We have a drill that is called "running hands drill." But it doesn't work the way you described. It starts with the attacker throwing a punch to the solar plexus, and the defender blocking/jamming to the inside with jom sao. Then the attacker grabs or checks the arm that did the blocking/jamming, in addition to running the hand that was underneath. This prevents the defender from checking the shoulder with what was the blocking/jamming hand. And, rather than do all this just to acheive a slightly superior position with a fook sao on top, the running hand in the same motion strikes the back of the opponent's neck with a palm-up knifehand. So as the original block comes inward, the running hand just borrows the force to create a small circular motion, as the blocking hand is checked. Again, this is off of a mid-level strike and block.
Now, I think a drill like this is not limited to these techniques, it really illustrates a family of motions. For instance, as you say instead of the ridgehand the running hand can turn into a hook punch. Or it could be a low lead punch, the opponent gan sao to the outside to block and you bounce off that block into a downward backfist to the temple. Wing chun would also check that blocking arm, but if the opponent blocks forcefully than you don't even really need to check that blocking arm, just get off the force and the opponent won't be able to change the direction of their force in time.

The key is to be convincing with the low or mid-level punch. This is not a fake, it has to mean business or your not going to draw their guard down. If your opponent doesn't respect your power it is hard to pull off any combination of techniques.

-FJ

[hunt1]

Sorry EF but your understanding of WC is way off.If you have ever seen someone intercept a jab from underneath and then run to get on top then they dont understand WC either.

Ironfist ,running hand refers to a situation,common in chi sau,when someones fook sau is hanging on or using some type of downward energy direction on your tan sau.You move your tan out from underneath and punch.His fook drops straight down.Another way to deal with this is roll into a type of a bong sau.Roll at the elbow and attack with either a back fist or punch.

[Merryprankster]

I suppose that's an interesting perspective.

I would never consider a person with their hands on top of mine to be in a superior position though, that's for sure. In fact, I'd say they got the raw end of the deal.

[Sharky]

that's cos boxers don't stand there holding hands.

that said; we prefer to cuddle.

[fa_jing]

Reasons why the hand on top is SLIGHTLY superior:

1. You can grab their forearms palm down. It is hard to grab someone's forearms from below, too easy to break the grip.

2. Gravity is working in your favor.

3. Your hands are closer to the opponents face and neck. Good for a style that includes finger jabs.

4. If the hands are below the shoulders, you have a greater range of motion then your opponent. If the hands are above the shoulders, it is a disadvantage to have your hands on top for the same reason. In fact, for the hand on top position to be clearly superior the hands should really be at mid-chest or lower. Then you definitely have a greater range of motion than your opponent.

About #4 - If your opponents drops his stance, he would be freeing up his hand for a greater range of motion and possible attack. Maybe that's what Merryprankster meant, and this would include techniques like a double leg takedown. You always have to be ready for your opponent's response. In this case, you could drop your stance too (not WC), sprawl against the double leg (not WC), knee, or use the fact that while your opponent is sinking his stance he cannot side step, and use your superior mobility to circle around and seek a better attacking angle. Or grab his hand and push the shoulder down like in Xsing-Yi.

Now, again, the hand on top position is SLIGHTY superior, and could lead to over confidence. For instance, he has double fook sao over your double tan sao, mid-level. He punches to the head from fook, you finger jab to the eyes from tan. Because of the extra reach of the fingers, your strike will land first. So it pays to be aware that there is almost always a response to any action. The trick is whether your opponent can respond fast enough if he doesn't know what's coming in advance. Or, to quote George Foreman "They all have a plan, until they get hit."

-FJ

[sticky fingers]

Are you going to bring up tha 'dead wu sau' thing again (AKA BakMei)

[TenTigers]

Evolution wasn't way off, BUT I disssagree that on top is superior. Some wing chun schools definately prefer this position.It has been my limited experience that guys who like to play their chi-sau by overpowering their opponent, bigger guys do this alot. Underneath allows you to be INSIDE centerline, and allowas you to run to be again inside centerline. Jow-sao (running hand) is not just from fook-sao, or tan-sao, but from any position-period. Running means that when your bridge encounters opposing force, you allow it to pass by disolving and tightly circling into your target. Great riddle-great trick question!also, Evo-great solution-can't wait to try it.

[Merryprankster]

What Ten Tigers said.

But to translate it into english... :)

Basically, hands on top is "outside control." Hands underneath is "inside control." Having the inside line on an opponent is better than the outside, PROVIDED that you are in close range. At a far distance, the answer is "that depends :)"

E-fist--what you are describing is EXACTLY what wrestlers use to control their opponents in a collar and elbow tie or double inside tie. Instead of "jamming," the bicep, you hold onto it. Same same.

fa_jing--I don't know what kind of grip breaks you've been doing, but grabbing palms down isn't any better than palms up. I think that must be an individual thing

[TjD]

i understand exactly what your saying about raising the arm and stepping in

i do it ALL the time... except when i raise my arm i do it with a bong sau :)

it does work like a charm however


peace
travis

[Ray Pina]

Glad eveyone enjoyed.

For the record, intention was not to debate which was better, up or down. But alternative to running.

Also for the record, finding the top superior simply to finger jab my eyes is quite dangerous. Why? Because I'll take your eyes.

Your on top, you push be down a bit to get that bounce and then go up for me eyes. OK. What stops me from coming up with you, continuing your upward momentum further up, maybe using alittle elbow to get you out too, then sticking my fingers in your eyes.

Be careful.

PS MerryPrankster: "I would never consider a person with their hands on top of mine to be in a superior position"

Its because of posts like this, that I continue to think you must be a good fighter. Every position is a good position, when you know you're going to beat the guy, just a matter of how. ;)

[fa_jing]

"Also for the record, finding the top superior simply to finger jab my eyes is quite dangerous. Why? Because I'll take your eyes.

Your on top, you push be down a bit to get that bounce and then go up for me eyes. OK. What stops me from coming up with you, continuing your upward momentum further up, maybe using alittle elbow to get you out too, then sticking my fingers in your eyes. "

Again, once your opponent has contact with your arm, he can sense your finger jab, and come up with it. You might even start wrestling your forearm vs. his. That's why wing chun traps that arm, otherwise it's just a question of who's got more skill. And the Wing Chun traps I know of are all downward. You can't execute a downward trap when you have an arm below your opponents arm that you are trapping. Takes too much time to pull out your arm from underneath.

One of the more effective WC techniques is the "outer gate punch." This is where your opponent punches you, you simple punch over it with your forearm brushing the opponents' downward and inward, your fist continuing on to it's target. You cannot simply reverse everything. The "inner gate punch" a la JKD's intercepting fist is simply not as stable. The body does not work equally well in all directions. It is easier to clamp inwards with your forearm and the elbow down than it is to push outwards. The nature of the vertical fist and the downward direction of the elbow means that in Wing Chun, it is more to your advantage to have your hands above your opponents. That said, your primary goal is to strike the opponent, not to play that game where you keep trying to put your hand on top of the other guy's hand like in kindergarten.

You say this wasn't intended to be a discussion about whether the top postion is superior, but, as with many threads the focus has changed, thus my response. What is your interpretation of the Tai Chi saying "keep the hands high?" I'm not a Tai Chi player so maybe you could answer that for me.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Again, it depends on the style you practice. Wing chun has a lot of downward traps, so it is to your avantage to have your hands above your opponents. If your specialty is the double-leg takedown, maybe you want your hands underneath.

-FJ

[Siu Tze]

Very interesting discussion. EvolutionFist, thank you for starting it. Too bad it's not in the Wing Chun Forum. I also wish there were more discussions like this in there.

Outside gate/hands above is superior?...

If you are relaying on gravity or just some kind of downward pressing move, wouldn't a well rooted person be able to uproot you thus negating your advantage?

For example, a small compression is a great move in WC but only if the person offered it to you. If they start their "lan sao" and step in right as you try to compress they have you. Besides a 300lb person can only apply 300lb of force downwards, but a 150lb person should be able to generate 200-300lbs straight up in a pinch.

So I agree that there may be more hands to do when you are above, but I hate it when Sifu hits the crap out of me when I'm trying to recover my root. He's not always underneath, but **** if it's not when I feel the least comfortable.

[Merryprankster]

Let me try to translate what I said to "kung fu." :)

If your hands are underneath the opponents, the way to his center is now open. The reason for this is EXACTLY what E-fist posted. Uprooting from this position is easier than the outside. I can also control your arm(s) more easily, clearing a path to your center expeditiously.

The variations are many, but they all work on the same theme of controlling the space inside the arms.

That doesn't mean there aren't a ton of moves that work from outside, as fa_jing points out.

[Mr Punch]

You boys must have attention spans like coffee-jacking mozzies! How many threads do we go through? Then an interesting one gets kicked to the bottom quick as spud-u-like... :confused:

To summarize the thread: if someone has the top of your bridge, you don't need to run the bridge, unless there's too much downward pressure for you to handle, cos you can use their bridge to get to their centre for an uproot...?

Is that it? Do I win a cookie??:rolleyes: and why does nobody give straight answers on the wc board?!!;)

MP (or anyone really), do you think it's easier to take someone down from the outside, and throw them from the inside? I know there are dozens of techniques, but can you generalize?

[HuangKaiVun]

When I was training Hung Ga with Tentigers, he was telling me how the short Augustine Fong would hold a low stance so that he'd almost be inviting opponents to strike at his head.

TenTigers is nearly a foot taller than me. When he held that position, I knew that I'd never get in from the above position due to his reach advantage. For me to get in, I'd have to either force him out of his comfort zone or destroy the blocking limb first.

In my experience, being confronted by a bridge hand will have me either flowing around or THROUGH it. Above or below matters not to me. Let's not forget that a skilled player will have his back guard hand - no, ENTIRE BODY - waiting to deal with your further motives.

To me, Wing Chun's "directness" is about naturally attacking the opening with fluidity and without hesitation, not necessarily about minimizing the shortest distance from point A to point B.

[Merryprankster]

Mat,

If I am far on the outside, it is easiest for me, and probably most others, to come in with what I call a low sweep single, where I take the leg away and out to an angle. You can hit this takedown from just outside kicking range, most of the time. Throws are hard to pull off from this far away for obvious reasons.

If you are jammed up inside in the clinch, then throwing can be done. There are also a host of other manuevers including snap-downs and ankle picks, knee-picks, post up doubles, etc.

It might be better to say that you can't really throw somebody from far away, but you can take them down :)

fa_jing. I'm still completely clueless as to why the hand on top is superior. You say it's easier to press in than out with the elbow down. This is sort of true. If you are using your chest and deltoids to accomplish most of this, then you are correct. However, I don't have to press out if my hands are underneath. I just have to create a stable structure, which is really quite simple. If I'm trying to clinch, I create a wedge using something similar to a boxer's guard--a hands over top punch is going to slide off my shoulders to the side.

If I'm going to hit you, then you had best have a longer reach than your opponent (taller guys, for example), because the action of a jab or cross, or even a hook is going to cause the same sort of effect--my shoulder is going come to the inside and slide up your arm. Screw sensitivity--that doesn't help because it's the turning of the body that causes you to have to punch "over my shoulder," to hit my head. Collapsing that structure is not easy. You'd have to beat my elbow--come across with the punch in front of the elbow, to take the inside line to my face. The higher up my punch you try to come the more likely you will be unable to collapse the structure of the punch, and the more likely, it will slip to the outside of my head.

Now, if you have significantly greater reach, then you might be able to get away with it.