pole form

[churn-ging]

Now, I am no where near learning the pole form, but someone told me the other day that in the pole form there is an empty hand form that can be used for long range fighting.

Does anyone who knows the pole form know anything about this or believes this?

Actually, do you think that the weapons form can be used empty handed?

[Alpha Dog]

these links have a bit of info on pole: http://www.qimagazine.co.uk/wing_chun.htm

http://www.wingchun.co.uk/thewingc.htm

Why do you wonder if weapons forms can be useful in empty-handed situations? of course, if you golf without clubs you won't get far, but is that really the same thing?

[churn-ging]

I'm just curious that's all.

Somebody told me that the pole form can be used to help you train in long range fighting with empty hands. Just wanted to get everyone else's opinion.

[byond]

I WILL TRY TO HELP.....RRRRRR.....much better...caps lock is off.......
the lok dim boon or 6 and 1/2 point pole measures almost 9'ft long....if you havent mastered the empty hand forms you can not do the pole form correctly ....a strong stance and waist is of most importance......the pole form and preparation ex. strengthen the wrists...strenthen the waist (my second sifu called this yiu lik)...and really builds the stance and legs of cource.....the form is performed using a "sai ping dai mah" stance...which this is the only time this stance is seen in the wc system(to my knowledge)......the name of the main drill is called "chair gwun kuen"...its very shaolin in apperance....in fact ive seen real shaolin monks do a similear exercise....even with the verticle fist shape,.as we use in wing chun.....can you use in for fight long range....mmmmmmmm....imo no...its a exercise...the wide stance is worthless in real hand to hand combat(imo)and obviouly we face our opponent in combat...in the drill we punch to the side.........which develops the waist energy.....hope that helps....b

[stuartm]

Hi all,

Before you learn the pole you learn a punching drill in a very low horse stance. You shift the stance sideways while performing a long bridge punch while the other hand returns to the waist, Difficult to explain - I will try and upload some pics. It basically starts to train you in producing long bridge thrusting power (biu guan) for the lunging part of the pole form.

Stuart

[hunt1]

The answer is yes! the weapon forms are nothing more than empty hand forms done with weapons.take the weapon away and both forms have very direct empty hand fighting concepts.

The problem is very few in the Yip Man line were taught the weapons and even fewer taught the full complete forms from Yip Man.For example the pole form seems to exist in 2 forms a short version w/o much footwork and a long version.A lack of space for teaching may explain the difference however the sifu that taught me the long version seems to usually teach the short version.

The weapons for whatever reason have always been regarded as the true'secret sauce'of the system hence the problems with understanding what they teach

[churn-ging]

byond, stuartm

The exercise that you are talking about, is it the one where you get into low horse stance like the one seen in hung gar and then you turn your waist to one side and punch out with the opposite hand, turn back to the front and punch out to the same side with the other hand?

i.e. you turn to face the left and punch to that side with your right arm, then turn back to face the front and punch with your left arm to the left.

If its this drill, my instructor tought it to me before I learned the biu jee form. He said that it helps to train the waist before starting the third form since the third form involves a lot of waist movements.

I didn't know it was a drill for the pole form.

[churn-ging]

So there are two versions of the pole form?
:eek:

[byond]

hey guys,

stuatm...i agree,what your describing is what i was trying to describe the "chair gwun kun"...perhaps i should have just said pole punching drill...lol



hunt1......sorry but i think to think the pole form has fighting application (empty hand fighting application)....is a sign of not being eduacated and or truly understanding the wc system(whatever lineage).....if you want to fight in the wide low horse..be my guest but its not wing chun...it would be more likehung ga training......i agree you train your cheung kiu lik a bit"long bridge strength" but the training is not meant to translate liturally into fighting technique...or the stance would be found all through the wc system which it is not.....i do agree the knives directly translate into empty hand and vice versa but not the pole///.................b

[byond]

yes churn ging,
thats the one......i learned it way before i learned biu tze...to for my waist...so by the time you get to learning the pole...you have already trained the pre drill for years........b

[reneritchie]

In the Yip Man system, many do Jin Kuen (Arrow Fist) as "pole-prep" training. They stand in Sei Ping Ma (Square Level Horse) and punch sideways, then turn and punch with the other hand, then turn back, etc., with or without stepping with each punch (In Sum Nung system, there's a similar drill but done in the WCK horses).

I've not heard of a longer version of the pole, unless the set was deliberately lengthened by a particular sifu. WCK pole is fairly consistent across lineages - 6.5 simple points (with a few extensions), done with minimal repetition.

As to applying the pole movements empty-hand, this is pretty much the core as I understand it of Jee Shim Weng Chun. Within the pole set are a plethora of standing grappling movements (arm, leg, and body locks/throws). Whether someone chooses to use them or not is, of course, up to them.

Rgds,

RR

[hunt1]

byond- they say ignorance is bliss.You must be a very blissfull person.

Renee-The forms I have been taught differ as regards to footwork not the points themselves.I just consider them long and short versions.I think in some short versions the footwork is alluded to more than it is shown but still the same form.The long version is not much longer it just contains more stepping.

[byond]

ooooo...we are touchy huh?if you hadnt told someone(who you could have given a wrong idea to, especially if they are impresionable) i wouldnt have said that.....imo....instead of saying "ignorant" i was trying to say it as polite as i could "hence not educated".......he asked about the pre pole punching drill...not the pole form....try reading.....now einstein take the pole position....without the pole (but pretend its there) what are you going to use that for???nothing .....the principles are applied to your empty hand ging generation...not the external training forms.......or techniques......wing chun is a priciple based art not a technique based art....our forms(i use the term form loosly) is a collection of ging patterns...ways of expressing power with our bodies through our root and body unity/structure.......
and instead of another worthless reply, how about you enlighten me about using the "sai ping dai mah " (4 direction big horse)and the arm hand positions of the pole form in direct application in the context of using wing chun and not hung ga.....and we are talking wing chun not weng chun which the chi shim start using weapons and than go empty handed....but its a different monkey...related but different

[sunkuen]

Doesn't Carl teach the emptyhand applications of the pole form? Do you know the form yet? If not maybe thats why he didn't teach them yet. If you do know the form maybe he's waiting till you are more proficient at it.

[reneritchie]

byond - nice to see you posting here, btw. As you know, in the system I learned, we have an influence from both Wong Wah-Bo/Fok Bo-Chuen, and Dai Fa Min Kam/Fung Siu-Ching. Fung Siu-Ching is, of course, the source of Jee Shim Weng Chun (FWIW - I'm not sure they start with the pole, or at least that all of them do. The pole is considered a treasure and like any treasure, it was past along carefully. Many of the CSWCK people I've spoken with began with basic stepping and punching drills like Fa Kuen (Blossoming Fist) or Baat Sik Dan Da (8 Form Single Striking).

To get a sense of pole application sans pole, grab your partners arm at the wrist and elbow and go through your pole set. The seven principles remain the same as they do for pole application, and some very interesting things can come from that (even if you don't like empty hand with that platform, it can still give you insight into those who use it, and you can practice WCK counters to it).

Rgds,

RR

[hunt1]

Byond seems like everyone but you knows there is more to the pole form than meets the eye.Your every post demonstates the limits of your knowledge.
and if you can read churn-ging clearly said that HE HAD HEARD THAT IN THE POLE FORM THERE WAS AN EMPTY HAND FORM ETC.HE DID NOT ASK ABOUT THE PRE POLE TRAINING SET.

I have little tolerance for those who think that only their line has the secret knowledge and if there sifu doesnt know something or hasnt taught something it cant be in the system.The purpose of forums like this is to share knowledge.It is meant for those with open minds .If something is outside your scope of knowledge and abilities,and use of the pole form clearly is,read and learn.

For what its worth if you saw the application of the empty hand pole form ,assuming you know the form,you would kick yourself in the ass because its application is so clear and logical.It has nothing to do with hung ga or weng chen.You assume it does and as the adage goes when you assume.......

[stuartm]

Originally posted by churn-ging
byond, stuartm

The exercise that you are talking about, is it the one where you get into low horse stance like the one seen in hung gar and then you turn your waist to one side and punch out with the opposite hand, turn back to the front and punch out to the same side with the other hand?

i.e. you turn to face the left and punch to that side with your right arm, then turn back to face the front and punch with your left arm to the left.

If its this drill, my instructor tought it to me before I learned the biu jee form. He said that it helps to train the waist before starting the third form since the third form involves a lot of waist movements.

I didn't know it was a drill for the pole form.


It sounds like it - this is the way it was taught to me by my sifu .

[byond]

hhhhmmmmmmm......another wothless post hunt1....good job. and you are right, he said" in the pole form is there a empty hand form" . well the pole form is not an empty hand form...the drill i mentioned is and we (churn ging and i)agree its the same thing he was thinking it was.
wow!!!!no tolerance??thats cool...good thing i dont think that my line has the "top secret "only way than huh?? in fact i look at every one having a piece of the puzzle which is why ive learned from so many different lineages...in fact the only guys i havnt been lucky enough to train with is the koo lo and the yks/sn which i hope to correct in the future.......
and the sai ping dai mah is a stance used in hung ga and weng chun not wing chun except in the wing chun pole form (and pre drill) if fighting in that angle,in that stance you violate many wing chun principles.....if you actually knew the principles rather "techniques you might agree........
didnt mean to come off being rude....im blunt and shoot down the centerline.....i do agree with you about the bot jom tao and im not saying there are not applications to be found,but these applications are not litterally translated in wing chun (yip man)...the ging and "principles translate of cource

[byond]

hey ren......i forget that your family has the weng chen influence,as always thanks for the info......i havent had the fortune of working out with any of you guys yet....hopefully that will be corrected in the next couple months....


sunkuen.....i already told you im not a student of carl....i want to be though....its extremly far....almost 3 hours....my car is a hunk o' crap which makes the drive dangerous......and if i do learn from carl when im ready im sure he will teach it to me.....currently i only know 3 versions of the pole...the first version your sihing taught me about 5 years ago.....succes in your training

[hunt1]

Byond-dont know why i bother you clearly enjoy your bliss but one last time.
WC is concept based.Is there only one way to apply each concept?2 ways?or are they flexible?do you adapt to the situation or do you say,"please dont attack me from the side,not from the back either,not on the ground ,not now i hurt my arm,etc".

WC is not a set of inflexible principles no matter what you think.

The pole is not just some weapon added for the hell of it.It has been an intregal part of the system for 150 to 180 years more or less.Why is that?why these 6.5 movements? why not more movements?Why a long single headed pole and not the more functional shorter pole?Why stepping footwork ?why angle facing?You can build ging with any length pole.Why use a low horse?Why not change to the higher horse found in the rest of the system?Maybe the early WC masters had reasons other than 'yeah its kinda like hung gar pole form only shorter lets keep it even though it violates all our principles! If all they wanted was a pole form why not take the exact hung gar pole form and graft it to the system?hung style was common enough in Fatshan .

Maybe just maybe since the pole is part of the system then maybe its principles are too!!!???

[Sabu]

Originally posted by byond
sorry but i think to think the pole form has fighting application (empty hand fighting application)....is a sign of not being eduacated and or truly understanding the wc system(whatever lineage).....

I'm sorry too! For you!

[sunkuen]

Two easy questions.

Did you pay him for the form?

Whats his favorite dish?

:)

[byond]

hunt1...im not sure why you bother either ,other than to waste my time with another worthless post.....
if you actually studied the english language you may decipher my post and read what i said about wing chun being a principle"concept"based system not a technique based system...which is why i said the principles of the pole form translate into the system as a whole....but the physical stance does not...not in fighting aplication.....of cource your post as a whole restated what i had said in my last post but thats ok..you can agree with me....it is a free country.....wow....i bet the "principles"from the pole form are part of the system.......


sabu.....if i wanted your opinion i would have kicked your elephant

sunkuen......he took me under his wing to save me from some bad twc politcs...favorite dish?...i think he mentioned he liked the early ming dynasty...the later part of the dynasty didnt have the quality to detail..............

[sunkuen]

For a second I thought maybe you did learn from one of my sihing.

[byond]

sun kuen......i did.....i was very lucky at the time to have his guidence......if by "dish" you meant food and not a "plate" we never ate.....he came over...we chi saoed for 2 hours and than he went home to canada..this happened on a regular interval over a 2 year period......and his skill level was extremly high and yet he always told me "how mediochre he was"...so obviously i hold your sifu in the highest regards......due to his work he didnt have alot of time to dedicate to me...so our relationship was all wing chun................b

[Sabu]

Originally posted by byond
hunt1...im not sure why you bother either ,other than to waste my time with another worthless post..... The search for knowledge can be a tumultuous journey, especially when one finds worthless the most valuable gifts of knowledge.

[Alpha Dog]

If you are gonna follow Sabu around, keep a safe distance lest the elephant dung fall upon your head.

[stuartm]

If you go to my website -
http://mysite.freeserve.com/swanseawingchun , there is a small picture of my Sifu, Samuel Kwok, performing this drill.

Regards, Stuart

[yuanfen]

Elephant dung has been known to kill. Happened several years ago in the Hamburg zoo where the zoo keeper didnt get out of the way in giving an elephant an enema. I would be wary of Sabu's elephant too. That's real chi.

[black and blue]

I have an mpeg of that elephant incident... well, a similar incident where this chaps head ends up in an elephants ars*.

Dead funny ;)

[fantom]

Interesting,

This post suggests that the pole should be 9 foot long?

I am currently using a six foot pole, which means I can spin the pole vertically from the left to the right side of my body, using a Northern Style grip (if the pole was to be used as a pool cue - my left hand grips the front end of the pole). This spinning move is a lot of fun to perform.

I am not learning the pole form as such, but a 45 second modified form which includes a lot of exercises that can be used individually to improve my pole skills. This I perform with the southern style grip (right hand grips the front end of the pole).

As my Sifu says ' this modified form looks flashy - good for demonstartations, but if you where in a fight! (he then demonstates more direct, less flashy moves that should be used in combat situations)'

I have only been using the pole for about two months, and are having a ball, and can't help feelling the skills I am learning are adding to my wing chun abilities! I am up to the Chum Kil form in my wing chun training.

cheers

[yuanfen]

Dont let the pole control you!!