Hung Kuen

[BIU JI]

Does anyone here on the forum study Hung Kuen at all and know the lineages?

Thanks in advance !!!;)

[jon]

Yeah im a Hung student and have some idea about various linages though im by NO means an expert.
Ask away and ill do my best to help :)

[denali]

fung ken? ---huh?

[jon]

Hi Sui-fuw
Im afraid i havent heard of Fung Ken but i have certainly heard of Fong Sai Yuk. Infact according to the legend passed down Fong Sai Yuk and Hung Hei Gwun were infact class mates and training partners. Fong specialised in Crane where as Hungs fortay was Tiger. After the temple was burned they both split off to form revelutionary groups.
Here is were it gets scetchy... This is just legend.

Fongs neice apperently married Hung Hei Gwun and she was also well versed in there familys crane fist.
(Fong had learnt Crane from his family prior to further study at the temple).
Fong Sai Yuk was 'apperently' eventualy killed by none other than the infamous Bak Mei himself.
After this Hung himself challenged but could not manage to damage Bak Mei due to his chigung skills. Hung defeated and depressed returned home to his wife where he began to systhisise the crane with the tiger. He did a good job but it was actualy his son who properly managed to combine the techniques into a new system. Hungs son 'apperently' then used this combination of internal external (tiger-crane) to beat Bak Mei using Crane strikes to the temple and to break his shirt by using Tiger claws followed quickly with pheonix eyes.
This is all obviously just legend and im just throwing it out for interests sake. Im sure there are millions of other versions of the same story, this is just ours.

So i guess according to this Fong Sai Yuks kung fu would have CERTAINLY been related to hung but with different specialisation. Its also worth remembering that Hung himself was a famous revelutionary and many styles were at one point under the 'Hung' banner.

I have to say im inclined to agree with you that these days Hung is often taught with to much emaphis on form and not enough on function. Also VERY commen to see stiff and rigid practioners who are unable to move properly.
Its a weird art, done well it can be devestating but in the hands of a laymen it may as well be a poor form of Karate.

Ok there is my littles legends and storys post for the night :)

hehe and sui-fuw i promice i will be more carefull about what i read into your posts :)

[FIRE HAWK]

I thought Fung Sai Yuk practiced Fukien White Crane or the Villiage Hung Kuen in Leung Tings Five Pattern Hung Kuen books is this Hakka Fung Ken related to the Hakka Unicorn style wich some in Hawai say is a Hakka villiage Hung Gar ? What is Hakka Fung Ken ?

[jon]

If you will forgive me being presumptious...

I doubt you would have asked me that if you didnt already have a fair idea about this legend yourself. Can i maybe ask what version of it you have heard and what you know about Fong Sai Yuk?
There is also the famous legend of Fong bathing in his mothers Dit Dar and as such having a body almost impervious to regular strikes.

Do you know much about the history of Fung Ken? What do they have to say about Fongs death?

I certainly dont want to 'debate' history but i would love to hear your version of events if you have one you can give out.
All the best and hope training is going well.
Jon

[BIU JI]

Basically I'm searching for anyone who may have Ha Ho Hung in their lineage. Apparently he learnt and was teaching Fung ken before going to learn pakmei under CLC. There is always the chance he is in someones lineage in a still existing Hung kuen school or even a Hung ga school.
The first 3 levels in YKM have the influence of this style and though it can resemble Hung ga if you look closely at it you can see that what Sui fu says about Fung ken being shorter and closer to pakmei is true .
Although the forms may resemble Hung ga in some of it's principles and focus behind the forms they are again shorter than hung ga and fit in with pakmei principles also.
Ha Ho Hung came from Ko ming province and apparently was one of few "non Hakka" people to be taught this style, due to being of good reputation he was allowed to learn.

Anyway if someone can confirm this or has some"relevant" info Iwould appreciate you in put, thanks in advance.


:)

[FIRE HAWK]

What does Hakka Fung Ken mean in english what style ?

[FIRE HAWK]

Now i see Fung Ken must be this Dragon style that is in Yau Kung Mun that comes from Mui Fa San Yang then Tit Yang Sum Si and then the founder of Yau Kun Mun ,Ha Ho Hung i think. If this is true then Hakka Fung Ken would be a Hakka Dragon style.

[FIRE HAWK]

ORIGIN OF THE DRAGON KUNG FU STYLE
The original stretching and twisting movements associated with Dragon (Lung Ch'uan) were part of Bodhidharma's exercises which he taught after founding Shaolin temple in Honan around 570 A.D. The true emergence of a martial discipline can be traced to about 1565 A.D., but the originators are uncertain. Two legends seem noteworthy. One states that the Shaolin nun Wu Mui created the style by using moves of deception and melding with an opponent. The other credits a monk, Mui Fa San Yang with contemplating his kung fu training and daydreaming about countermoves, when he became inspired by the twisting movements of the dragon. The style was called Yow Kueng Moon, and was advanced by Yang's abbot, Tit Yang Sum Si. Both these stories place the origin at Honan Shaolin Temple. Since then, Dragon Kung Fu has evolved into two distinct styles, Southern (1565) and Northern (1680). Each consists of non-temple variations, in essence units of instruction taken, incompletely, from Shaolin, and molded into family styles. A new synthesis to organize the Shaolin styles and systematize a combined approach was begun in 1972. Of historical note, the style considered southern was the original form brought south from Honan, while northern evolved in the north after the burning of the temple in 1570 A.D.

METHODS AND PHILOSOPHY
Dragon kung fu is essentially an internal, ch'i cultivating method, but initial training is far more similar to a hard, external style than a delicate, reptilian approach. In learning the moves, the student will strike hard, block hard and stomp into each position, with the idea of learning the proper place to be once each movement is complete. Eventually, the method of transmitting power is retained, and the physically strengthened body is able to make transitions in the proper, fluid manner. In turn, this reptilian smoothness helps disguise the attack, making it extremely difficult for an adversary to effectively counter.

Once a purely physical semblance to flow has been mastered, the disciple incorporates the deep hissing sounds to train ch'i flow. Inhaling is silent, but exhalation is deliberate, tense and controlled. Inhaling lightens the body for aerial maneuvers, while exhaling drives power into each technique. Blocking is dispensed with, and parries or simple strikes substituted. At this point, novice and advanced student show very little in common.

On the highest level, an opponent is allowed to tire himself out, evasion becoming the Dragon's key defense. Ch'i control is highly developed, and the degree to which the body must be moved to redirect or avoid impact is under greater control.

The forms that comprise this system are divided by complexity into three categories, and are enumerated below:

Basic
16 Hole
Passing Bridge Three Times
Fierce Tiger Leaping Over Wall
Rescue Master From Single Side
Single Sword and Mount
Press and Hit from Four Sides
Eagle Claw
Bridge Smashing
Intermediate
Touch Bridge (introduces sticking hands)
Venomous Snake Moves Tongue
Hua King's Fist
Standing Five-Form
Cross Standing Five-Form
Turn to Hook and Hit
Five Horses Returning to Stable Palm
Advanced
Plum Flower Punch
Seven Ways of Plum Flower Punch
In each form, one is taught to "ride the wind", a phrase which in large part means follow rather than lead. Provide no opening without first letting your opponent open. Unlike Crane, which also relies heavily upon evasion as a tactic, the Dragon evades primarily by rotation of upper or lower torso with little or no stance movements, while the Crane stylist hops frequently to reposition the entire body. Both styles employ pinpoint strikes to vulnerable meridian targets, but dragon also heavily uses tiger-like punches and clawing techniques, snake-like stance shifts, and leopard-like hit and run strikes to weaken a physically superior adversary. Dragon kung fu also regularly employs low sweeping techniques, but these are not unique; most senior stylists of any kung fu system use these on a weakened adversary.

[fiercest tiger]

The other credits a monk, Mui Fa San Yang with contemplating his kung fu training and daydreaming about countermoves, when he became inspired by the twisting movements of the dragon. The style was called Yow Kueng Moon, and was advanced by Yang's abbot, Tit Yang Sum Si. Both these stories place the origin at Honan Shaolin Temple.

These are the same monks in my history in ykm, but our real ykm is pure internal soft slow movements and does have dragon names in some moves.

Is it the real dragon? maybe , maybe not?

I know that Grandmaster Ha was a very good fighter in his province and was well respected and had good character. He met clc and lyg and was swapping info for a while , then learnt under clc his bak mei. Then left clc and Monk Tit Yang travelled from the north and chose one disciple in the south which was HHH. He became the 1st lay person to learn learn the ykm system outside the temple. The internal was only passed down to his son Ha kwok cheung, most of the teachers in last generation didnt learn it because it was kept from them like yum cha's teacher and mine although when i was at my sifu's house he had pictures of his teacher doing the form and told me he wasnt interested in the internal as a kid as he wanted fast forms. Then his sifu had a heart attack and couldnt leanr it anyways.

anyway it is a very powerful system in its self, only 3 forms and chikung and meditation. I have a great picture of the late grandmaster with the monk and him meditating in a tree. sigung was a devoted buddhist!:)

later
FT

[FIRE HAWK]

Is this Hakka fung ken is hakka for red fist have anything to do with a style called Shaolin Hong Quan (Shaolin Red Fist) I have a manual by Master Wang Siqian on Shaolin Hong Quan (Shaolin Red Fist) it has the forms Small Red Fist (Xiao Hong Quan) and Big Red Fist ( Da Hong Quan ) are these the Hakka style you are talking about Hakka Fung Ken or Red Fist ? Also I have a video detailing everything on the Hakka Unicorn Kung Fu style not the Unicorn dance i know that the Unicorn style is rare and the Hakka like to keep it secret do you know anything about its history it is a short hand art and interesting art too kinda looks like Pake Mei or Southern Mantis .

[FIRE HAWK]

I find this art interesting if the monk came from the north than wouldnt it be a Northern Dragon style and would it be a Hakka art ? If not a Hakka art than maybe Northern Shaolin Dragon style that could be a missing art from the past.

[jon]

Hi Sui-Fuw
Thanks for the informative post it made a good read, we are a little off topic but its an interesting discussion i wouldnt mind hearing some more if your willing.

Can i ask what version of the Bak Mei - Fong Sai Yuk - Hung Hei Gwun - Hung Man Ting story you have been passed down? Or at least does it somewhat match mine?

I agree on legends being facts based, martial arts legends is actualy one of my little pass times.

Please excuse me quoting it just makes it easyer to organise myself:)

"you have to ask yourself first,who is the eldest,the cantonese or the hakka to do with k.f?"
* Not dead sure i totaly get your meaning here but ill give this a go...
Cantonese to my knowledge are simply Hong Kong citizens? Hakka refers to the Northern Guest people who if im not mistaken were orginaly royalty before being forced to flee into southern China. I think it would be fair to say that both regular mainland chinese and hakka would have ended up in Hong Kong. Hakka styles have always had there own flavor though and my personal bet would be that this has been passed down right from the time of Hakka being royalty and has gradualy been asimilated into several styles. I couldnt say with any accurcy or even beguin to guess about just what was crossed or assimilated but you can proberly safely assume that Hakka styles have a lot of influence from other regular main stream styles.
I think to answer the basic question though Hakka would have had access to sophisticated methods before the Cantonese but then again many Cantonese were also mainland chinese so im not just how much of a disadvantage this could be.

"have you heard of "the two sessions"?"
* Not by that name, please go on you have me intreaged already :)

"comunism" before and after,does this ring any bells?"
* Great big nasty loud ones:( Post comunism kung fu is basicaly rubbish and hardly worth the time spent studying. Especialy the internals.

"why at this time the artists move to hk[which were fshermen bred with manchus]?come on that must ring a bell"
* Yep same with most of the Hung Ga pai and many other of the more prominent Southern Styles. Many still reside in Hong Kong to this day. It was not viable to teach Kung Fu in a traditional manor in mainland china during the 50s.

"most of w/c is pronounced in hakka?"
* Ive long been suspect that Wing Chun is infact a Hakka style and has been addapted by Yip Man to fit differing needs. This is pure speculation but hey im allowed :)

"all k.f can only be taught in hakka? "
* hehe i hope not man, i work in a chinese resturant and spend all day around a chinese teacher. I wish so hard i spoke the darn language its getting rediculous now :(

I had heard of Red Fist before but i didnt know it as Fung Ken, i was under the impression the RF was a shaolin based style which would fit in nicely with what has been said.

Does it look very different from other southern Shaolin based styles? You say its still practiced, are there many higher level practioners about or is it mainly a lower level art? (bad choice of words but you know what i mean)

Anyway this is interesting so lets keep the old legends comming and does anyone have any more imput on Fong Sai Yuks life or KF system?

[Rolling_Hand]

How are you guys here?
I just want to say hi to my old friends on this SKF mountain- Jon, Sui-few,and FT.

Forget Hung Keun, Rolling Hand's WC rules...hahaha....bye!!

[dezhen2001]

this is really interesting guys! wish i had more information on it though :(

david

[Rolling_Hand]

If you want to Chi Sau with Yuanfen, you have to learn a little more about his background...go to this website and this may help you!
http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/

[dezhen2001]

True, i really have more than enough to learn :) as i'm just a newbie to CMA...

I'm just interested in the history and development of things i guess... from the PM thread i had here earlier, and form the little i've seen it sounds like an interesting style, that's all. If it helps me understand something better, then that's good.

hehe. we're still pommies though ;)

david

[jon]

Sui Fuw
lol a few posts along these lines and you may start picking up groupies :D

This is again becoming very interesting, again please forgive the quotes...

"dude you are clever and getting brihgter,don't get c@cky,lol "
* hehe thanks for the compliment but dont worry i wont get 'c@cky'. Im much more prone to just being aragent:eek:

"sorry on version.no documents remember?"
* hehe thants cheating;) Just keep prompting me and ill keep doing what i usualy do... Fill in the blanks :)

"your stab in the dark is right on que but I WANT MORE"
* Yeah i would love to hear more about these legends as well, unfortunately much of the information is conflicting and most BM schools wont even talk about BM himself, they refer to CLC instead.

"the thing is i thought you were cantonese."
* You see Sui Fuw this is why i know i spend to much time around Chinese, i found that oddly flattering.
Just another gwilo trying desperately to make sence of it all, its not easy being green.

"hakga/hakka"=?
* Im afraid i dont know:( Any chance of an easy answer or am i going hunting again? Its not a nickname for 'northern guest' is it?

"hakka is not written,it is spoken,how many cantonese are christian/catholic?how many hakka are that?"
* Very interesting point sui fuw, stop leaving me breadcrumbs this is torture :p

"w/c,you know it,i know it "chum que" originally was "sinking the bridge" changed to "seeking the bridge"why?you said it.and r-h is back here why?"
* hehe i think we both know the answer to this, the real question is what was the system called originaly and exactly why and how was it changed.

"rf is shaolin based why do you think the manchu's started to burn temples down?"
* Is it northern originaly or was it born in the southern temple, do you know? I know that FSY himself was actualy a big part of the reason for the second temple burning. Seemed he liked to fight a bit more than he proberly should have.

"you are correct f.t does it from hhh and no its not like hung kuen or hung gar."
* The villiage varients of Hung are a funny bunch, some are quite rudimentry where as others seem far in advance of regular canton ga. My linage has village influence and even some cross over from SPM and Lama Ga. We have a heavy pheonix fist influence and the mechanic is similar to the striking mechanic of some of the hakka styles. Some may say this is a MMA or not proper 'hung' personaly i dont care... It works real well :p

Would FT like to tell us a little about the Hung influences in his YKM? Ive asked him this before but it may benifit other readers?


"my grandfather SLAPPED a hung kuen si-fu so hard he moved villages no joke."
* hehe hung ga is a tricky art in this age, like wc in some ways. A million schools and a small handfull that are actualy REALLY good.
Some are like steel traps and about as predicatable, others are like a robot following though the motions with each limb held totaly rigid. Then there are the proud few who like my Hung sifu seem to have struck that particualr balance between hard AND soft and can actualy use there art. Its sad there is so much crappy hung around. I used to get annoyed when i heard of people closing down schools. Now i just think 'oh well they should have trained harder not to mention smarter' hehe.

"fire,have you found what "bic gim" is yet.if you have its time to tell jon?
something for you to wet your whistle,fire. "
* You got me confused with the 'fire' comment?
Still im really not sure about 'bic gim' to be honest ive never heard the word 'bic' or even seen anything like it in my experience. Gim is often used to discribe a strait sword, could this be a sword set or something similar? Any hints, you asked this before and ive been thinking about it ever since, do you have any clues for me sui fuw. Im trying my hardest but i dont speak the language and its proberly not something i should ask my sifu about hehe.

"bodhidarma said" you can catch a monkey,even a bear possibly a tiger but how do you catch the lung yin or key lin"?"
* lol catching and taming what lies within is always the hardest accomplishment is it not?
haha as for Lung Ying, dont even get me started sui fuw, you dont wanna know;)

Can i please have some more breadcrumbs or preferably solid clues, you have piked my interest and im trying my best to peice together your puzzle. I dont want it given to me on a silver platter becouse that would ruin the taste but then again i dont want to starve either:p

hehe keep it comming sui fuw, my misuderstood friend :D

[jon]

Rolling_Hand
Glad to see you havent left us all on the southern forum to our own devices, you never know what we might get up to;)
I hope morning is pretty on Wing Chun montain and your babe has recovered after being ravaged by sui fuw:p

"Forget Hung Keun, Rolling Hand's WC rules...hahaha....bye!!"
* hehe RH's Chi Sao is indeed formidable but is it up to the task of tackling the iron thread?
After all if you cant break it, you cant snap it, you cant strain it, you cant knot it. What exactly do you do with a high level HG practioner?

Ok we have all the players standing on the floor and everyone has now only to make a next move. Will it be bedlam or will it be a learning experience for all?

Will i finaly be able to comprehend the fifth qua without breaking my focus?
Will my palm strikes finaly co ordinate properly with my spinal movement.
The answer to this and many other exciting questions this week on KFO.

[dezhen2001]

d@mn, it seems i'm just following behing jon and missing all the breadcrumbs :( guess i'll have to go hungry then...

david :)

[dezhen2001]

What exactly do you do with a high level HG practioner?
to quote Sabu "love is the answer" :D

david

[jon]

David
ROFL
"love is the answer"
* ok i REALLY dont want to meet you in a cold dark alley late at night :p

As for breadcrumbs, they are not exactly nourishing but then again get enough together and you have half a loaf ;)
Or as Jacky would have it 'half a loaf of kung fu'

lol btw david
didnt want to admit to it on your other thread but...
We do some 'eye speed' excercises in my Hung Ga training but dont tell anybody its a secret;)

[dezhen2001]

hey Jon, u know i was just playing for laughs :D Gonna have to steal some of ur breadcrumbs though... i'm hungry (lunchtime here)

Eye exercises are cool, i just don't see how they fit in to Chi Sau, that was the point i was trying to make :)

[jon]

"fire,have you found what "bic gim" is yet.if you have its time to tell jon?
something for you to wet your whistle,fire."

* hmmmmm another round...
'Fire' - 'wet' - 'whistle'
Im hearing ya, if thats where your going ;)

[dezhen2001]

Ah, so we've seen the everlasting spring.. but what do we do? take a drink?

Does bic gim have to do with protecting youself from swords...? I'm sure i read it somewhere? How do u defend against a "See fut lau"? :D

Anyway, the quest for the eternal spring continues...

david

[fiercest tiger]

"When you drink the water from the stream,
remember where the SPRING starts"

quote from my sifu.

JON,

Whassup mate? Our Grandmaster was a CLF and HG player and taught in his village in KO MING province. Our first 3 sets are look kinda mixed with hung gar and pak mei to get a better foundation and root, then that of what you would from the beginning of bak mei training.
Also my personal belief is that its hard to get the ging as a beginner so hung gar was mixed with the tension and longer moves and bigger circles to learn proper body machanics and strengths. Although sui fuw makes a very good comment on ykm hung gar connection being hakka fung ken as it doesnt resemble any hung gar looking, no one finger we use tiger claws and the long movements arent as long as hung gar persay.
I will ask the grandmaster in hongkong soon, as i cannot answer if its hung gar or fung ken because the info i have is he learnt hung gar from his uncles brother which was well respected. I dont know if its a original form or a mixed form, he may have made up, all i know its to sweat out poisions or sifu used to call it the cleansing form. He would lift my shirt up to check my points if they were sweating when doing this form. It looks bak meish alot of tension in between. who ever made it was a genious anyway.

hope this helps.

later
FT

:)

[jon]

Hi Sui Fuw
You sound a little as though you feel insulted by me, if thats the case then I appologise as that was certainly not my intension. You have spoken some kind words and offered another path for me to explore and hopefully further my knowledge on the way and for that im gratefull. I hope i dont come accross as otherwise, i will stop the quotes as well.

You certainly would drown me sui fuw i think we both know that ;) Good answer btw i can see your on the ball as always.

Im always agragent, its one of my major flaws, however im not totaly lost. You see one my best strengths is knowing my own weakness, now if only i could learn to deal with them more effectively.

You are right on the gwilo comment, hehe wanna hear my reasons?
I have come to far to turn back:rolleyes: Sometimes the higer reaches are hard to climb but strangely closer than turning around. I used to like to think i could fight - then i realised i could just carry a weapon. I used to think i liked to move, then i realised i could just learn to dance. I used to think i liked 'chi', then i figured out Buddishm, qigung and Yoga are better providers for that.
Its not something i understand its just something thats a part of me, when i truely understand my reasons ill let you know;) At the moment im happy to tell people i just like walking around in circles :p

On the North vs South issue, ever heard of this sui fuw...
Big red fist, little red fist?
Just curious.

My Hung sifu is certainly skilled but neither me or him pertain to him being anything truely grand, although i have to say im yet to truely meet his match and ive seen MANY.
Good kf is odd, i never would have picked him as a master yet i still to this day look at others and wonder if there trained. Do you think we ever truely pick up the ability to read this?

I hope you dont think i disrespect you or hakka, im not sure i read that right. Im just someone who tends to speak when he proberly shouldnt, im sure you can guess where this leads both good and bad. Still i never mean to offend only to further my own knowledge.

Good job on behalf of your grandfather, no Hung sifu should ever be harrasing or putting themselfs above others. If it went down as you say then your Grandfather is a rightous man. As im sure are you:) Even if you do like to tease.

I will do my best to research 'bic gim' and see what i can dig up, ill let you know if i have any success. Can you tell me, does 'bic' refer to fire or to elements in general?

Anyway hope your well and i havent come accross badly again.
All the best
Jon

FT
I like the quote :)
hehe cant help but remind me of this brilliant old Jacky Chan flick (Young Master) where he is about to take a drink from a stream looks up and sees a kid ****ing in it a bit further upstream:(
Thanks heaps for the information regarding your YKM, what you say about sweating out the toxins is actualy a big part of the Gung Gee form and it really does have GREAT effect. hehe i drip sweat in pools in my Hung classes. Its like the darn art was designed for it. Maybe they should have called it sweating fist.
The merians you touched on are also a part of Gung Gee and to my knowledge to set is actualy designed to pinch various meridans forcing you to actualy lead your energy around your body to prevent stagnation of the blood. This is one of the skills involved in long stance training.

Can i ask how many empty hand sets there are in total in YKM? If thats not a good question then just ignore it :)

Hope your well and still training hard
All the best Jon


To everyone else errr hello and sorry for the long post :)

[dezhen2001]

hi Siu Fuw... If you've ever seen him play chi sau or even met him you will know the answer to your question. :)

meanwhile, i'll try to work on catching up with Jon some more :D

david

[dezhen2001]

Siu Fuw: LOL :D

david

[dezhen2001]

ur funny (when i can figure out what you mean), nice to meet u 2 ;)

david

[dezhen2001]

best not say too much more or u'll make me blush...
hey, i know next to nothing about w/c anyway, so of ocurse i have an 'open' mind ;)

david

[dezhen2001]

LOL :D very interesting imo...

david