Traditional Methods and Modern Kung Fu.

[red_fists]

Hi All.

Just something that I keep asking myself from time to time, and maybe some of you do too.

In MA there are a lot of traditional training methods, but much value to they still hold for the average MA today.
I am not talking here about People entering Competitions, Tourney's or People using MA on a professional Level.

So does the average Person need to train "Iron ..." Skills, practice Chi retention, and so on.

It appears that fewer and fewer people get into real life threatening situations, or are required to fall back on their MA knowledge.

I would like to hear your personal reasonings and not stereo-type answers.

Hope we can get a good discussion going.

[dezhen2001]

well, i train hard qigong right now more than my other styles. The main reason is not because i'm gonna be competing or getting in to fights etc. or want o be a baaadass.
I enjoy learning the skill and it d@mn sure makes you healthy. I find it's really helped my posture and cleared my head (so i focus and think better), as well as making me have much more vitality and energy to do the things i want to do.

That's the main reason for me training now of course. The 'fighting' side of things is taking care of itself gradually as i develop and understand the skill.... i'm in no rush :)

david

[tri2bmt]

I think the traditional methods are more relevant nowadays than they were back when. I mean those guys trained to fight with rival schools or gangs and bandits or wars even. They could sure have boosted their fighting prowess with our modern knowledge of nutrition and strength building and cardio ability.
The methods they employed were effective enough and training traditionally is really the best way to train. They didn't know these things and so developed their kungfu through the best methods they could such as qiqong and body weight exercises, meditation and so forth. Obviously it worked or many styles would be gone now.

Modern training is really just cheating every aspect but the fighting side and if those guys could perform amazing feats and develop such good skills then maybe running every day to maximize their "cardio potential" and "pumping iron" were really not necessary and replaced with what we call traditional training.

[red_fists]

tri2bmt.

That is exactly one of the reason why I am wondering.

MA of old were Fighters , Village Defenders, Warriors and often Soldiers.
How many MA of today fall into those Categories??

I know the old stereotype of weak defending against the strong using MA, but in reality the average Farmer had as much knowledge of MA as we do about nuclear science.

Just my Opinion.

[Black Jack]

I understand what you are trying to ask but you might want to change the bottom aspect of your post as its data is a little off.

What research do you have that showcases that today's people are less and less encountering violent situations, if their was only one violent situation a year ever, that would still be enough to train for that context, ma skills seem to be very slim in any violent encounter data, data which does not show some kind of decrease, but an increase, IMHO today it is more important than ever to train for life and death combative situations, the robber, the rapist, the drugged out street thug, the hardened killer, the crazed, those bent on terror, any small bit of research will show that crime and random violence is very virle in todays world.

You asked for viewpoints, so here are mine.

I think "more" traditional martial artists need to embrace modern methods of training and weaponry in their approach to todays evolution in self preservation, not as a change to their core system but as a smart decision in increase their knowledge and personal safety, this is not about style pride but self protection, keep the academic and exotic for your own research, but address the current physical methods needed NOW.

By modern methods I mean learn to use firearms, learn to use common weapons like baton, stick, and their improvised buddies, learn about the violent criminal, not the sword swinging bandit of yesterday, do research on the criminals methods and psychology, find out what violent crime has happened in the paper to further this understanding, stuff by private researchers, the fbi, law enforcement and so forth, use current science on adrenal responses, biomechanics and physical training, learn about the psychology of fear and how it works on the body and mind, be open to adding things into your system like a bit of groundfighting, make things much more simple in terms of a core set of fighting tech's, stuff that is easy to retain and execute under pressure and different situations, learn to apply it with a ruthless aggression as if every strike was your last.

To me its not about a person's style but about how they train, forget style, thats not really important.

[red_fists]

Black Jack.

I understand what you are saying.

As for Violence being on the increase, not if you look back over the centuries.
Back to when the Arts were created.

And of the course the next questions pop up:

"If I learn all the modern methods, do I still train Kung Fu?"

and of course.

"Do I still need Kung Fu?"

[Black Jack]

Red Fist,

I don't want to highjack your post as I think it's a good one and it deserves answers, but what you are saying IMHO is false in regards to when the styles were created, you are talking about guesswork and unfindable data, who really cares about then, it means zip to you of today in terms of crime, the criminal of today and his psychology is what you should be interested in.

Peace.

[joedoe]

I agree that MA should adapt to the modern requirements, but this does not mean that you must throw out the old. Learning sword may not be relevant to today's self defence scenarios, but it is also important to maintain the old ways as well, for posterity's sake.

And you never know, the sword may once again become a common weapon :D

[red_fists]

.. who really cares about then, it means zip to you of today in terms of crime, the criminal of today and his psychology is what you should be interested in.

Yep, here is where we differ. I don't feel that an attack 300yrs ago and an attack today is different or more/less lethal.

But the Past still has a lot of valueable lessons that apply today, but it is up to the MA to choose the ones that he needs.

Said that I have used my TMA training against a gun wielding attacker without ever having trained Gun defenses.
It really depends on you and not the art or your training method.

But that is just my Opinion.

[red_fists]

And you never know, the sword may once again become a common weapon :D
It is still a valid weapon, 3 recent Cases:

1.) Man storms into a Church in England wielding a katana and injures Church Goers.
2.) Japanese Man killed a Repo-Man and injured his 2 Buddies using a Katana.
3. Australian man defended his house against an Intruder using a Shinobi-gata.


:D

[HuangKaiVun]

Rhetorical question:

What's more important, the techniques themselves or the USAGE?

[Black Jack]

Disagreement was inevitable:D

I do agree however that the past holds a lot of important keys for the wise man, but I don't agree that these kung fu teachers of old were supermen who defended villages, unbeaten fighters, or soliders who were all forged in battle and could do amazing feats of strength and agility, I also don't believe by any stretch of the imagination that the everyday farmer in ancient china knew as much about martial arts as we do now about nuclear science, nor IMHO as much as we know about martial arts today with the new technology we have to spread information across the globe.

The cultures of the past did not have our knowledge of medicine or pathological nervous systems, on anatomy, on sports medicine, on anything based in science at all, these findings alone got rid of the fanatsy and brought in a deeper understanding of what is real.

What was once a dim mak delayed death touch story can now be revealed by western and modern asian medicine to be the delayed rupture of the spleen by a strong rib hit-Archives of Surgery Vol 92-our comprehension has gone way up now, no longer do we need the bullhockey martial magic as a junkie needs his fix, now because of science it actually allows traditional martial artists to work on the esotric and occult based aspects with a degree of ability, to find out what is really their and document the results.

Crime is crime in a basic sense, it was and still is a ugliness, but the crime of the very far past in China, as this is what we are talking about, is much different than what you see around you today, a different breed of criminal with different mindsets, different clashing cultures and different technologies and skills to back him up.

[nospam]

So does the average Person need to train "Iron ..." Skills, practice Chi retention, and so on.

Regarding the so-called 'traditional' skills..

It is less about fighting skills and more about personal exploration, often times in a spiritual direction, and working hard on maximizing individual ability. The exploration delves into the boundless capability of MAN, while the achievement becomes the seed of things yet to be...

Notwithstanding the above, the main differences are in modalities and intent.

nospam.
:cool:

[red_fists]

Huang.

Good question. Got the asnwer?

Black Jack.
Even so modern medicine is that advanced they still look for the missing pieces in alternate and traditional medicines.

Sorry, I don't by into the " newer/modern is better" concept, it can but it is not a given.

Maybe because I come from a culture that dates back a few thousand years.
:D :D

[raving_limerick]

I know this wasn't directed at me but...


Originally posted by red_fists
Huang.

Good question. Got the asnwer?

Black Jack.
Even so modern medicine is that advanced they still look for the missing pieces in alternate and traditional medicines.

Sorry, I don't by into the " newer/modern is better" concept, it can but it is not a given.

Maybe because I come from a culture that dates back a few thousand years.
:D :D

I think this just simply shows what CAN be accomplished combining the old and the new. Neither side (traditional or modern) has all the pieces to the puzzle, whether the puzzle is martial skill, medicine, or philosophy. The problem lies when people tend to go to extremes one way or the other. You cannot deny the fact that the world has changed immensely in two hundred years, yet as they say, "the more things change, the more they stay the same". New medicinal approaches combined with older knowledge and folklore can lead to surpising results; why isn't the same taking place in the martial arts? Why are we always trying to recreate the past instead of perfecting the art?

In other words, while certain aspects of the human condition have been altered over the course of history, there will tend to be certain constants in place. People still fight, quarrel, and engage in combat. Criminals still exist, as does war. In this sense, the martial arts are timeless. Most training methods will confer the same benefits upon the practicioner now that they did in the distant past. Techniques still work, with a little tweaking. There's ways of updating kung fu and various other traditional arts without diluting or removing parts of the system.

But I think it's nothing short of idiocy to refuse to adapt to the times. This doesn't mean we should all go out and train MMA, but that we as traditional artists need to recognize that this is not 17th century China, and therefore, we must adapt or perish. This does not mean to forget tradition or the origins of a system, but you've got to find ways to at least adapt ancient techniques and strategies to the modern world. For instance, if you train a staff form in your style, try adapting every day objects to the form. Try your techniques in modern street/business clothing. Do everything you can to keep your style alive and vivrant in the dawn of the 21st century instead of static.


Just my take on the matter, so take it at face value.

edit: I've had a few too many ciders tonight, so I appologize for any errors in clarity, grammar, and spelling you might find.:o

[red_fists]

Hi raving_limerick.

Great post.

Personally, I think that the old Weapons are going to come more into foreground slowly but surely.

Why, simple factor, more and more restrictions on modern Weapons like Guns,etc.

Most people can go out and order traditional MA Weapons without any licence or any form of proof of training.
Whereas Guns and other weapons are controlled and tougher to get hold off.

Look at Japan. Can't get a Gun easily, can but the restrictions are major.
OTOH I can go and order a hand crafted Sword, Knife, CMA or JMA Weapon and only need a small licence to carry it (within limits of course) if at all.

[raving_limerick]

Originally posted by red_fists
Hi raving_limerick.

Great post.

Personally, I think that the old Weapons are going to come more into foreground slowly but surely.

Why, simple factor, more and more restrictions on modern Weapons like Guns,etc.

Most people can go out and order traditional MA Weapons without any licence or any form of proof of training.
Whereas Guns and other weapons are controlled and tougher to get hold off.

Look at Japan. Can't get a Gun easily, can but the restrictions are major.
OTOH I can go and order a hand crafted Sword, Knife, CMA or JMA Weapon and only need a small licence to carry it (within limits of course) if at all.

Thanks for the compliment, Red Fist. Believe me, it's greatly appreciated :D.

Now, about guns, there's a few ways to look at it. First possibilitiy is that the restrictions will be tightened over your lifetime, making it more practical to train with what is considered legal or traditional. This is where I think BlackJack is entirely correct in saying that traditional artists need to understand how these things work. Sure I can carry around a chain whip, but will I be prepared enough to use the chain whip against a trained opponent sporting a collapsable baton or switchblade? Likewise, how do you adapt the WC pole form for use with a walking stick or evening cane? These are the types of questions that anyone working with traditional weapons should try to answer in their training, IMHO.

The second possibility is that restrictions will be loosened in our lifetime, meaning that understanding firearms and gunplay is essential to the formation of a martial artist. (Some would argue this is true, regardless, but that's not really my point.) I don't know if this is entirely feasable, but there's always the possibility that such a scenario will come around, and if it does, someone has to be ready for it. Pretending that guns have no place in combat because they're too modern or even (gasp) "dishonorable" is silly. If people are carrying them nearly universally, you'd better **** well learn how to use them.

Finally, the third possiblity as I see it is that the regulations become either unenforcable (due to weaked governmental power, etc.) or ignored completely. This is a situation that 's more likely to develope, in my mind. In that case, it would still be extremely important for a martial artist to learn how to use a gun. While I generally disagree with the idea that outlawing guns will mean only outlaws possess guns, if the regulations on guns go unenforced then that's as good as legalizing them in my book.

Keep in mind, that when I say "learn to use a gun" I'm not talking about packing heat, per se. I just mean that we, as traditional artists need to understand how they work in order to defend against them, at the very least.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by raving_limerick
Keep in mind, that when I say "learn to use a gun" I'm not talking about packing heat, per se. I just mean that we, as traditional artists need to understand how they work in order to defend against them, at the very least.

I am with you there. One of the first lesson I learned in MA was to learn that in order to defend against any style/weapon I need to know how it is used.

Seeya round.

[HuangKaiVun]

Here's MY answer, red_fists:

I'm more into the underlying themes behind techniques than the actual crystallization of the techniques themselves.

For me, traditional weapons in an of themselves are not as important as the lessons they teach. A staff set can be translated to a broom, a double dagger set can be turned into pens, a bench set can be applied to all manners of furniture. Or a pen set can be translated into double daggers.

I am a graduate student in the field of Geography, and our thing is that software packages are always becoming better. However, the basic principles tend to stay the same despite all the innovations. It is with this mentality that I approach traditional weapons.

[red_fists]

Huang:

You just put into my words my own answer.

Same over here in the IT-Industry, the rules and principles are still unchanged since the beginning.

[tri2bmt]

I really like that comparison of weapons into street uses like brooms and knives as well as the idea of training or sparring in your street clothes. You could even do that once a month without any stretching or warming up before hand. Better yet pick a public place and have a buddy or fellow martial artist attack you or vice versa. This could be great for learning at least some reality fighting.
I wouldn't do to often though. I like the controlled setting of my kwoon and knowing that if anything goes wrong then my sifu can step in.
By the way, which style do you guys consider the most relevant for modern fighting.

[red_fists]

tri2bmt.

I train every weekend in the park, wearing street clothing.

Most of the times we simply to Forms practice and Push Hands. The different surfaces make a difference for Balance & rooting.

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm making a set for myself called "Objects" that is consistent with the thrusting percussive jing I set for myself in my empty hand sets.

This uses things like staffs, pens, books, cups, furniture, clothing, shoes, boxes, even coins. My goal is to make everything immediately available to us in the environment utilizeable. And when I'm really good, I'll add handgun, rifle, knife (weapons used by criminals).

I don't have anything like swords or spears or 3-sectional staff. Were I living in old China, I most definitely WOULD have such things. And there's no reason why I couldn't add such weapons to my personal style if I wished, being that I've trained them quite a bit before.

Because of the adaptive nature of my sets, I'm always training even when I don't appear to be. Whether I'm lying down or even sitting on the toilet, I can always find a way to work my techniques.

I may not beat every (any) opponent, but I'll never be caught utterly unprepared.

[Zapf Dingbat]

HuangKaiVun, sounds like a Jackie Chan movie! OMG HIT HIM WITH THE LADDER.

[Kristoffer]

be like Bullseye, make everything to a weapon. But it's hard to throw coins..

[HuangKaiVun]

Why is it hard?

Even if you merely hit a guy in the face or distract him, that might create just enough opening for you to GET AWAY.

[yu shan]

Methods/Modern Kung fu

My question is about dedication. I am old school, and have always been devoted to my art. My Shrfu`s expected to have your attendance whether you were sick or not, you came to practice. I have seen a trend in the last few years of kind of a laziness. Is this just an American thing?

2nd question: Mantis Kung fu deals alot with conditioning, and alot of two-person, which brings on bruising. I have student`s that have problem`s with this. I do state that if there is something that makes you feel uncomfortable, don`t do it! I have many programs to fit everyones needs, yet I do not want to water down this Great Mantis system. I do have very good student`s, troubles me why not more? Note, it could be regional, I am in Tennessee.

Florida boy.