What Kind of Chin Na does Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut Have

[FIRE HAWK]

What kind of Chin Na does Hung gar and Choy Li Fut have ? Or are they more a fist striking art ?

[extrajoseph]

I don't know about Hung Gar but CLF chi-na techniques are grouped into 2 forms or 2 "liang kung fa" (metheos of training), they are called:

1) Ngoi Nim Bik Da Seu Sou Yum Yeung Kung.

2) Yum Yeung Noi Ngoi Nim Chi Sou Fa.

They are often broken up into 2 men drills, including throws and take down and ground fighting. There are also exercises to improve your finger, wrist, elbow and other joint strength by learning how to send your chi there so your opponent can not break them and control you.

Most CLF beginners don't get to learn these techniques as they are usually taught at the advanced level.

JosephX

[T. Cunningham]

Joseph,

How do Ngoi Nim Bik Da Seu Sou Yum Yeung Kung and Yum Yeung Noi Ngoi Nim Chi Sou Fa translate into English?

Todd

[T. Cunningham]

Joseph,

How do Ngoi Nim Bik Da Seu Sou Yum Yeung Kung and Yum Yeung Noi Ngoi Nim Chi Sou Fa translate into English?

Todd

[extrajoseph]

That is a hard one, I will translate each individual word and you can put them together the way you think fit.

Ngoi = external
Nim = adhered to
Bik = enforced
Da = strike
Seu = break
Sou = hands
Yum = yin
Yeung = yang
Kung = exercise

and

Yum = yin
Yeung = yang
Noi = internal
Ngoi = external
Nim = adhered to
Chi = sticky
Sou = hands
Fa = method

JosephX

[jon]

Hungs Chin na is dependent on the animal that is being used.
Tiger however seems to have a certain preference and i believe that there is some higher level locks that involve a well developed Tiger grip for some finger and hand breaking fun.
Most Hung chin na ive seen tends to be more designed to quickly snap something than to hold your opponent for a restraint.


As my Hung sifu says, restraining is a masters skill. If you blow it you have an angry aggressive opponent who is now twise as determined to kill you. If you get the lock you then have to figure out what to actualy DO with them?
Either break it in one movement or smack something, dont play the 'had enough yet' game.
If you HAVE to go the restrain route then almost break the joint strait away and stop JUST shy of snapping it. Best way is to bounce the lock. This will put the opponent in instant pain and let them know that you mean buisness and are fully capable of actualy breaking with the lock. If you accidently break it 'opps'.

[TenTigers]

In Hung Kuen we have a saying, "Cum nau toi bik da", seize and twist, forcebly press and strike. Joint locking is designed to break and manuver your opponent into position for finishing strikes. These are divided into fun gun, chaw guat, dim huet, dim mak and bye hei-and suet gok-taking joint past normal range of motion, going against natural joint motion,pressing blood vessles,vital point striking, sealing the breath, and throwing.
Each movement in the forms contain the above techniques; joint locking, takedowns, and vital point strikes. These are not separate techniques, but rather variations of applications of the same movement.

[T. Cunningham]

Thanks Joseph. I don't speak Cantonese, but the phrases sounded familiar. I'd read phrases that looked similar and referred to "outside the shutters" and "inside the shutters" It was Ngoi and Noi that caught my eye.

Thanks,

Todd

[bean curd]

jon hows it going ?,

what you say is close, however the description you give is the characteristic each animal or element use on chin la sau but it is not sup baht chin la faht hung gar kuen .

in hung gar the sup baht chin la faht ( 18 grasping and siezing principles/methods ) is the underlying . within sup baht chin la some are given and others are taken away, it is this giving and taking away which then brings also the animal/element characteristics into play

it is true tigers claw and scratch, crane whips and pecks, snake darts and spits etc , but to bring chin la into play much more is required.

ten tigers what you have said is very true, nicely put in basic way.

extrajoseph,

i read on another post of yours, your comment on tai luk juk,
( water pipe ), forgot where i read it, but a very old and great skill not practiced much these days, da yueh a great principle of the play on the weapon

[extrajoseph]

I had a go at the dai luk juk in my village the last time I was in China. Yes, you are right, it take a bit of effort to get use to. I nearly got water up my nose and the tobacco is a bit raw for my liking although the moisture do softens the throat. I don't think it will catch on in the west. It makes a great weapon just the same and you can use the incense stick to poke your oppopnent's eyes!

JosephX

[jon]

Hi Bean Curd thanks for the post :)
Im aware 'of' the 18 locking hands but i havent learnt anything personaly going under that name. Still ive learnt short sets for each animal and Lau Ga and Gung Gee hand forms. In our short sets there is some chin na for each animal still i cant really say if this is commen to regualar Canton Hung. Gung Ge is obviously quite tiger focussed so much of the locking ive learnt in that has been with a heavy claw influence.
Interesting stuff coming from all directions:D

[bean curd]

lol, yes i think trying to smoke one takes more skill than sitting on ma, you are a braver man than i.

the water suppose to keep the necitine down but i see to many who coughed to say it was not true hahaha.

on pipe let not forget light flute point also lol another point of attack ;)

[bean curd]

no probs.

thing is sup baht chin la hung gar kuen is not learnt at novice level, but then come up as you progress, this is good teaching, always something new and always make us realise how far we have to go.

in this timing is most important.

on sup baht chin la this skill is not spoken outside of family, so not much more i care to add, but hope in some small way it open up something for you.

good training

[jon]

Hi Bean Curd
* I actualy have heard of the 18 locking hands before and i know they are heavily tiger influenced and require an extreamly well developed claw to achive there purpose.
Ive asked my sifu about them before and even been shown a couple of minor tricks and pointers but just as you say its higher level knowledge and im not at that point yet.
I know from experience that pressing sifu about such things is a BAD idea so i have left it at what i asked untill he see's fit to bring it up again.

Still as i say my sifu is not really big on restraining or locking, he is much more a destruction man and tends to drive right through the middle rather than playing games if you know what im saying.
However its something to look forward to and thanks for the prompt, Hung is such a great system. If only i had 3 lifetimes to actualy master it within i would be set. VERY big system...

[Humble Disciple]

I originally went looking for information/discussion on the "Hung Gar's 18 methods of Chin Na" after reading the interview of Sifu Frank Yee on Hung Kuen Net. I was hoping to hear more of a discussion with examples of each of the 18 concepts as well as some discussion and examples of their interplay. I study Hung Gar under a very small family lineage and I was hoping to compare notes. Let me know if anyone is interested.

[Firehawk4]

Any books on the Hung Ga or Choy Lay Fut Chi Na or Qi Na ?