Anatomy of a punch

[IronFist]

Ok. Cloud One told me Also take some Iron out of those fists, the hand is relaxed so the rest of the arm should be relaxed!!!


So I thought I understood punching, but now I think I don't.

First, I assumed that all of the following points were true. Please correct any errors.
1. When air punching, never fully extend the elbows.
1.5 This doesn't just mean "don't lock them out," it means that they will never reach their full extension at any point during a punch.
2. Tense the fist at the moment of impact.

Now, when doing air punches with the above advice, how can you keep point 1.5 in check? Wait, scratch that. Here is my question:

How can you keep the elbow from reaching it's full extension without using muscle (keeping the hand/arm/shoulder relaxed)???

The only way I can prevent my punch from fully extending my elbow is to use muscle (in this case, the biceps) to prematurely begin its retraction.

In other words, as my punch is speeding out towards the air, if I don't do anything it's going to keep going until my elbow locks. Since we want to avoid that, I assume the only available option is to PREVENT the arm from completely extending, which requires tension of the muscle. Am I wrong?

As for the "keep the hands relaxed" part, do you not make fists when air punching? Are they just like loose, half-assed fists?

IronFist

[red5angel]

Hey Ironfist, I think part of your confusion may be the using the muscle part? You have to use muscle anytime a limb moves, thats how it all works. The point I think is that you shouldn't rely on your muscle, and you shouldnt be using dynamic tension, or squeezing of muscle to follow through with the motion.
For example, when punching they tell you not to use your shoulder but your elbow. You cant help but use your shoulder a little, but that the majority of the force should be provided by the structure of the joint of the elbow.
Does that make any sense?

[fmann]

So you can't extend your arm w/o locking it? It takes conscious effort to lock your elbow and knee joints since the "locking" of the joint requires active tension in the muscles. Like just let your arm hang relaxed on the side and then raise it from the shoulder -- the elbow is not locked is it? But it is extended.

If you find yourself punching and the elbows lock out, then perhaps what is happening is that you are using too much of a circular motion, where the fist is going more downward instead of outward, therefore the force is moving the elbow upward and hyperextending the joint. Also, you might not be relaxed enough.

I think for this you really need to go see a WC/WT instructor in person because there are many things that need to be explained hands-on. Proper form is easy to show, hard to explain and harder to learn properly.

As for the fist aspect, it just means don't clench your fist.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by fmann
As for the fist aspect, it just means don't clench your fist.

Are you still making a fist and it's just not tight? Or are you not making a fist at all and just having your hand kind of loose?

IronFist

[CLOUD ONE]

Iron fist- how many different ways is there to do air punches?

Is there a correct or incorrect way? Only you can decide that when you have experienced all there is to air punching.

You either do or don't. It won't make the slightest difference what people say until you go and find out yourself!!!

There is no easy quick method to learn, just do or even better still just be!

[kj]

Well to consider carefully what Cloud One offered up, IMHO.

I would offer some technical ideas to chew on if I thought they would be of value. As it is, I don't know how you will be able to resolve the different paradigms in advice you do receive.

Do I remember correctly that you are the one teaching yourself from books and videos? If not, my apologies for confusing you with someone else. If so, I sincerely admire your commitment and persistence.

At the same time, IMHO, you increase your challenges exponentially in trying to learn Wing Chun without a good teacher to guide you. Despite my standing reservations, even mediocre instruction might be better than trying to reinvent Wing Chun for yourself from a hodge-podge of discordant materials. At least there might be a chance for consistency from one instructor or school.

I don't share this sentiment with you lightly, and definitely not with the intent to discourage you. To the contrary, I strongly empathize from my own personal experience. I have more books, videos and whitepapers than you can shake a 6.5 point pole at. I too once found myself in a desperate situation and wanting of a good teacher, no less one who could help me learn something in which I found real substance and longstanding value. My task has been far from easy, but persistence led me to my path and someone to lead me on it. FWIW, there is a large continent between me and my instructor; not a 40 minute bus ride, or a day trip. I would not trade my seeming inconveniences for all the videos, books, CD's, mpegs, vcds, training aids, internet forums, or local McKwoons combined.

Life is short, and time is our most precious and non-renewable resource. I strongly urge you to go to any lengths you can - and then stretch past that a wee bit more - to make your investment of time and energy sound. Convenience and expense aren't everything. Unlike time, it is possible to acquire more money.

Someone else on this forum quoted the saying "Doa lo yut cheung hung" meaning "When you get old, you'll find that your practice was all for nought." If you are indeed serious and sincere, IMHO, you owe yourself something better than second, third, or fourth rate learning.

Good luck on the punching thing. Moreover, my sincere best wishes to you on your journey. Even if I'm mistaken and you aren't the guy learning on his own after all. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Alpha Dog]

that was like so moving, kj...

[Rolling_Hand]

Those who cannot miss an opportunity of saying a good thing are not to be trusted with the truth seeker!!!

[[Censored]]

Are you still making a fist and it's just not tight? Or are you not making a fist at all and just having your hand kind of loose?

Too tight, you waste energy, and lose alignment and therefore unity. Too loose, you risk injury to your fingers by directing too much force through the wrong part of the hand.

How tight should it be? Just tight enough. Not very tight. Got it? ;)

BTW, what is your reasoning for tensing up at the moment of impact?

[Mr Punch]

Ironfist; I think you're getting too hung up on this 'people say don't use your muscle stuff'. As you know, you have to use your muscles a bit, but all that people are saying is that you should concentrate on using correct body positioning as much as possible. Don't concentrate on using your muscles.

And NO, not a half assed fist! Try punching slowly slowly slowly (air or bag, it doesn't matter for this experiment, but I'd say bag), your fist should be as loose as possible, whilst still retaining its structure, hitting with the right part, and not causing you any pain. The fist looks after itself, it's the same as the pivot position and many of the other basic principles: set up the positioning and let it work for you! If you've ever seen slowmo close-up footage of anyone doing any kind of board breaking you'll see just how much deformation your hand can take and still be fully functional! Obviously you want to reduce the deformation, so you let your fist tense for you on impact. That way, you can also change hand position/direction more fluidly if your punch is solidly intercepted.

Hope this makes sense... No doubt, someone'll be ready to completely disagree anyway, but that's just my take.

Don't get too hung up on the small stuff. Relax. Experiment. Relax some more, body and mind, don't think too much...! God is in the details, but when you're training on your own, Satan can be sitting on your head, way up your own a.ss!:D

Oh, and find a bloody seminar/private lesson to check what you've got so far, for goodness sake!

[Mr Punch]

oops. better clarify this before someone takes me apart on it: i meant check the structure of your fist on the bag, not practice thousands of punches on it yet or anything! then take the same feeling back to your air punches.

phew...:o :rolleyes: :D

[IronFist]

I assume my structure is right, because when I hit the bag it's all good (as in like, it doesn't hurt, my wrist stays tight, etc).

Censored said:
BTW, what is your reasoning for tensing up at the moment of impact?

Well, from a structural standpoint, you are much better off if you tighten at the moment of impact. If you don't, you might lose your structure (ie. wrist buckling, etc).

Besides, I can't imagine punching something hard with a loose fist and no muscle tension. Crack. That's the sound of my wrist and fingers when I hit something with no tension.

IronFist

[IronFist]

Oh yeah, maybe the reason I was having trouble doing a lot of air punches was because I was treating each one like a full on combat punch. In other words, I was tightening at the last second of each one... this was to simulate being in a fight and chain punching someone X times.

I dunno.

That's why I ask here.

IronFist

[Gandolf269]

Ironfist:
"maybe the reason I was having trouble doing a lot of air punches was because I was treating each one like a full on combat punch"

Treat your air punches for what they are - an exersize, not combat. They are a great way to build endurance and correct form. During air punches, I was taught to keep my hands relaxed the whole time and to let the arm extend fully. Punch with the elbow and keep the elbows in (they should always be pointed towards the ground) and relax. During the first six months I can't tell you how many times I was told "ELBOWS IN" and "RELAX".

When punching a wall bag don't extend the arms completely (the elbows should be bent upon impact) and make a solid fist at the moment before your hand hits the bag. Elbows in and relax. .:D :D

My Sifu suggested we should not punch on a wall bag for the first 6 months of our training, so that our tendons would have a chance to strenthen from the practice SNT and your stance will be more rooted.

Happy training

[[Censored]]

Well, from a structural standpoint, you are much better off if you tighten at the moment of impact. If you don't, you might lose your structure (ie. wrist buckling, etc).

If your bones are lined up, your wrist cannot buckle. (It can still break, though :( .) If you need tension to "keep it straight", then it isn't straight at all.

Try jamming an unsharpened pencil into your bag. If you send it in straight, it can transmit quite a bit of force (enough to kill?), without breaking. It carries no muscular tension.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by [Censored]
[b]Try jamming an unsharpened pencil into your bag. If you send it in straight, it can transmit quite a bit of force (enough to kill?), without breaking. It carries no muscular tension.

Um, I think I get your point but that was a bad example. A pencil carries no muscular tension, but it is very solid and dense, much like a contracted muscle. Push on an untensed muscle and it will bend. Push on a pencil and it won't bend.

IronFist

[[Censored]]

Um, I think I get your point but that was a bad example. A pencil carries no muscular tension, but it is very solid and dense, much like a contracted muscle. Push on an untensed muscle and it will bend. Push on a pencil and it won't bend.

Hey pal, are you begging or are you choosing? Make up your mind. ;)

Anyway, you did not get my point, because you do not drive the muscle, you drive the bone.

[IronFist]

Hey pal, are you begging or are you choosing? Make up your mind

I'm questioning the answers :)

I guess I totally missed your point. Oh well :) Thanks for trying to explain it.

IronFist

[IronFist]

No, I think I see it. You're saying that with perfect alignment, muscle power isn't required because the skeletal structure will provide sufficient strength. Right?

Ok, but I like to tense my muscles just in case I'm off by a little bit and my wrist decides to buckle. Or if I encounter some side force, I like to think my structure won't be compromised.

IronFist