Ground fighting from a kf viewpoint [Archive]

jon

04-13-2002, 04:52 AM

First a little background:
Ive been trying to instigate a little NHB style fighting and sparring into my workout as i was noticing i was getting complacent and needed to properly preasure test my skills.
Me and several other students and teachers have gotten together and are doing weekly sparring sessions.
At the moment we have me a Thai Boxing instructor, a Shan Shao and kickboxing + southern Shaolin instructor, a high level Wing Chun and BJJ guy who is also trained in the internals. Plus several others who's main claim to fame is just being a student of one of various styles.
Usualy we wack on the gloves and go the tonk standing with basicaly no rules except for dont try to debilitate one another and if someone cops a hard one then step back and let them recover.

Ok now to the point, sorry but a little background seemed necersary.
Today was our second week getting together and as luck would have it we had no access to any protective equipment. We decided to play on anyway and even decided that for once we would actualy keep playing once we hit the ground. Not being able to strike hard made this seem like a good idea at the time.
If ANY of you in CMA have not tested yourself on the ground i HIGHLY surgest you do so now! Its a BIG eye opener, we quickly realised that basicaly we were terrible and the only one of us who had the slightest idea was the BJJ guy, big supprise...
After picking up a few hints of him and a few ground rules suddenly we started to actualy perform reasonably well. We were taking each other to the ground without to much hassle and once there we could continue to fighting reasonably well.

The lessons i learnt...
1 Its hard to take someone to the ground... Unless you know how, all of you guys in CMA who like me used to think that you couldnt be taken down, get ready for a nasty supprise.
I play Bagua and what would frequently happen is whilst i was executing a throw my partner would simply grab hold of ANYTHING and therefore take me with him. If that was not happening everytime we got grappling one of us would finaly start to bring it to the ground, before we NEVER did this.

2 Unless you have ANY ground game chances are you will get trounced by anyone with even minor ground experience.

3 Being on the ground feels VERY alien but supprisingly is not THAT scary. After a while we were basicaly doing a bastedised version of kung fu bjj. Rolling around using minimal force on force and contantly looking to either slip out or pin something for further advantage.

4 Being on the ground is the MOST physicaly demanding form of combat bar NONE. It wears you out at a rate of knots and if your not conditioned well its likely you will lose of fitness alone.

My conclusions.
I have a new found respect for groundfighting and am finaly starting to see its uses. I think i was a fool for taking so long to actualy start practing there but im actualy REALLY happy to know have SOME idea of how to handle myself there.

By the end of the day we were all getting free of mounts and nearly all basic ground locks with no problems and most of us had learnt to sprawl and use leverage standing quite well.

I have a big peice of advice and by now it should be pretty obvious. Get some friends and get on the ground and see for yourself just why we often get distroyed by groundfighters.
Its exactly like being a fish out of water.

jon

04-13-2002, 05:08 AM

Some other quick realisations...

It doesnt really matter if your on top or on the bottom if you have some idea what your doing. I managed to get choked out at one point dispite initialising the takedown then rolling strait onto the top of him with my back pinning him against the ground. I got in a head shot with my elbow, he the grabbed me around the neck in a weird sort of sleeper and promptly choked me to tap.

Groundfighting is much more knowledge based than reflex, your reflexs will infact often be wrong and the best way out can often be though something you would have never thought of.
Again i stress, get on the ground and get learning!

You dont HAVE to actualy fight there, if you know some escapes and how to fall well you can often simply get out and back to your feet taking it back where you want it.

Good groundfighting actualy uses very little if any force on force and its application in principal reminded me a lot of Tai Chi. I for some reason had this idea that all BJJ must be brutish and unrefined and infact its the dead opposite.

Can anyone point me out some good sites that have a little basic stuff likes drills and escapes to work on? I wanna get a heads up for next week:D

No_Know

04-13-2002, 05:37 AM

"I play Bagua and what would frequently happen is whilst i was executing a throw my partner would simply grab hold of ANYTHING and therefore take me with him."

More fully control your opponent. I thought that part of a throw was do it such that they don't grab you like you learned can take you too. Or release and break your hold and theirs, so that they don't use your throw to throw you.

You're probablly giving reasonable thopught in light of to what you were introduced.

To me some of Kung-Fu is about use all available resources (ground, wall, objects...) to win, within your Ethical restraints~.

Kung-Fu always seemed to have more than just the lessons. It's unwritten type stuff that lets one know anothers level of study by the varity of skills and development level of any of those abilities to repre=sent understanding. Perhaps some Such.

I hope that you get the information you need, jon.

fightfan

04-13-2002, 05:51 AM

Jon, Im glad you had the chance to experience the ground game and plan to continue your knowledge to be a well rounded fighter!
Here are some very cool links to quite a few BJJ techniques Im sure youll enjoy!
http://www.royharris.com/techniques/bjj/index.htm
http://www.teammaa.com/Technique

Train hard and have fun!:cool:

yenhoi

04-13-2002, 07:46 AM

Sweet.

Welcome to the club jon.

Quote, No_know:

"To me some of Kung-Fu is about use all available resources (ground, wall, objects...) to win, within your Ethical restraints~. "

Very sweet.

LEGEND

04-13-2002, 09:03 AM

It is an alien world...that's the reason why some grapplers have success in REAL LIFE combat...due to the panic of those not familiar with the ground. However once u get familiarity...it's a piece of cake to USE and COUNTER.

NorthernMantis

04-13-2002, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by jon

Unless you know how, all of you guys in CMA who like me used to think that you couldnt be taken down, get ready for a nasty supprise.

Not trying to be arrogant but believe it or not a 6 foot guy ,in sparring, and my cousin, who was taking highschool wrestling at the time, tried to take me down and were not succesful even though I'm like 5'5. It was both on seperate ocasions before anyone misunderstands:D Not only that I held my own againts other people as well who tottaly outweighed me by sized and weight. However, I almost fractured my pelvis one time due to incorrect positioning and structure.

I also know a very hardcore cma who used to participate in Pancrase and is hard to be taken down.

Sorry about trying to come on as an overconfident fool but I'm just trying to let you know it is possible.

Don't get me wrong I respect bjj and all grounfgithing arts. I may be confident but i'm not a fool.

Kristoffer

04-13-2002, 10:09 AM

I hate doing groundfighting with ignorant beginners.. I REALLY hate doing groundfighting with ignorant beginners that weigh a ton and has wrist the size of a tree root!! No technique, No nothing `cept brute streanght. I really hate that.

fightfan

04-13-2002, 10:13 PM

ttt for jon

dre

04-13-2002, 10:38 PM

. . .And so it was that Jon converts to the other side. . .

Xebsball

04-13-2002, 10:38 PM

:D :D

So you say we should try bjj eh?

http://www.despair.com/demotivators/risks.html

:D :D

jon

04-14-2002, 05:02 AM

Hi peoples.
Thanks to everyone for posting and a big thanks to fight fan for the great links.
To answer the idea that im now turning to BJJ, NO im not.
Ive just become painfully aware that my ground game is VERY poor and can be exploited by someone who knows what there doing there.
My aim is simply to get a decent feel for what its like to fight on the ground so that if im taken there i stand a better chance of getting back to my feet.
My reason for looking at BJJ for this is that they are proberly the most reputed groundfighting school and i have access to a student of the art who is both quite skilled and willing to share.

This post was not meant as a you should do bjj post. It was simply meant to encourage other martial artists who like me previously have proberly never tested themselfs there.

I have to also say that ive never found the idea of not needing to learn to groundfight becouse you cant be taken down to be a valid arguement. My Tai Chi sifu had a good idea of how to handle himself there and i fail to see why a combat system that claims to be 'compleate' would view groundfighting as somehow not necersary.
If you think you will never be taken to the ground one has to wonder what if your taken by suprise?
I mean this is a silly example but it actualy happened during this very sparring session.
I had been sparring with a junior and wiping the floor with him dispite trying to be nice and offer advice. I was not going hard but it was enough to make him dicide to get me back:eek: It was only in fun but keep reading...
He bided his time and waited till i was in the middle of conversation with someone else and not paying any attension to him. He then run accross the floor and dived at my side bringing me crashing STRAIT to the ground with his whole body weight behind it.
I hit the ground with him and the rolled strait back up to my feet. The point to this little story should be reasonably obvious. If he HAD known well what he was doing he would have exploited the oppotunity better and would have known where to go once taking me down and stopping me from bouncing strait back up.
Also becouse i actualy DID have a tiny amount of ground experience i was able to get taken by surprise and get back to my feet all in one motion.

Honestly if you really think you CANT be taken down your deluding yourself.

Starchaser107

04-14-2002, 05:18 AM

Good experience.
In the real world anything is possible keep your options open.

HuangKaiVun

04-14-2002, 05:31 AM

When I designed my own style, I figured I could be attacked anytime anywhere anyplace by anyone.

I hate that feeling of knowing deep down inside that I haven't done my all to handle a situation. Even if I got beaten in a situation, I wouldn't punish myself for having done my best to prepare beforehand.

Ever since my karate days, I've always assumed that one had to be ready to go to the ground. Larger opponents usually wade through my "polite" light contact strikes, so when they took me down I'd take them down with me. Of course, that doesn't mean that my hit-and-run game can't continue on the ground.

Being 5'4" and 130 in a grappling situation doesn't mean instant loss when I go to the ground. If anything, it can be very hard for opponents to control me. To some extent, grappling can take away some of the size disadvantage. Not to compare myself to Helio Gracie, but the man was about my same size and was able to defeat a lot of bigger opponents. How fun would it have been to see him spar Rickson or Royce?

In close quarters, opponents are exposed to my vital attacks and often have trouble stopping me in that range. But I'd never want to fight a skilled grappler who was bigger than me. Helio Gracie found that out the hard way fighting that 200 lb buffed Japanese master grappler years ago.

LEGEND

04-14-2002, 06:18 AM

Funny thing is BJJ is designed for a little man more than anything else...the fact is if u're small and taken down in a fight...the guard will save your life! If u're a large or big man u may not need to use BJJ guard defense. Just try to roll out off the ground ala LION DEN type fighters.

Helio fought not just the 200lb Japanese fighter...this guy was JUDO himself...he fought against the greatest JUDO player in the game and got killed...KIMURA. Hell a submission tech is named after him.

NorthernMantis

04-14-2002, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by jon

Honestly if you really think you CANT be taken down your deluding yourself.

Very true. I have been taken down many times myself but however it is possible to mainaint your root. Just letting you know that. To tell the truth I thought you were going to start with the I've been converted and 90% of the fights got to the ground speech (which is a lie). I've met people who are on both extremes of the spectrum when one says he can't be taken down while the other claims that every fight goes to the ground.

Instead of people saying "x" % of fights go to the ground they should say how "x" % of people decide to to take the fight to the ground.. In any fight the loser will almost always fall or get knowcked down. If the other fighter decides to go down there with him is a different story.

GinSueDog

04-14-2002, 04:08 PM

Jon,
Here is one of my favorite sites. It shows a lot of takedowns and techniques. Pretty cool site and no gi to boot.-ED

http://www.geocities.com/josephgarza/archives

dre

04-14-2002, 10:59 PM

I see your points Jon ,I've been considering learning some (more - my Mantis Sifu does some ground) ground from a regular wresler ,not a BJJ'er (I wouldn't if they were the last MA on Earth. . .).

But seriously, I know this sounds disgusting, but couldn't you , in an actual situation , just SINK your teeth into his neck AKA Vampire Lestat Ryu , or do some Hanabal Lector Fu and bite off his face?

"To answer the idea that im now turning to BJJ, NO im not"

yes you are! heratic! lol

Dark Knight

04-14-2002, 11:22 PM

"But seriously, I know this sounds disgusting, but couldn't you , in an actual situation , just SINK your teeth into his neck AKA Vampire Lestat Ryu , or do some Hanabal Lector Fu and bite off his face? "

Its a great idea, but the BJJ, Sambo, JJJ ...guys alresdy expected that years ago (hundreds of years for Japanese Ju-Jitsu) and do nthe techniques based on some one trying to bite them or reach for the eyes.

Experience is the best teacher. Everyone should find out by experience, not by what somone thinks.

dre

04-14-2002, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Dark Knight
"Its a great idea, but the BJJ, Sambo, JJJ ...guys alresdy expected that years ago (hundreds of years for Japanese Ju-Jitsu) and do nthe techniques based on some one trying to bite them or reach for the eyes.

Experience is the best teacher. Everyone should find out by experience, not by what somone thinks.

er, actually, Classical JJ was made for Samurai In armour. Hence the absence of many Eye striking or biting techs.

I don't know anything at all about Sambo , so I'll leave that. . .

Classical JJ as far as I know alternates between standing and ground ,so it dosen't really fall victim to the Vapire Syndrome.

A BJJ man would porbably have chunks taken out of him by a HLKF practitioner. (But would this change the outcome...)?

scotty1

04-15-2002, 01:30 AM

Yeah, interesting.

I'd like to have a go on the ground, just to see how crap I am.
I'd be interested to learn some basics. Don't know if I'd want to put too much time into it though.

But defenses, counters and a few holds would be good.

MA fanatic

04-15-2002, 04:12 AM

First: The bottom line is that if you can't fight on the ground, generally, you're not a very good fighter.

Second: There are people who naturally have exceptional balance, and are very difficult to take down. So it is very believable when one poster wrote that some grapplers had a hard time taking him down even though he was of much smaller stature. However, to tone those standup/clinch skills, one still needs to do some grappling. Sooner or later you'll meet a decent grappler (someone beyond highschool level experience) who will read your body so well that he will take you down at will. Sensitivity and body reading is something grapplers do well.

Third: One doesn't really have to get hurt grappling even when training for NHB. If your partners aknowledge being tapped and hit, one doesn't really have to hit hard. You can get cheap grappling gloves and just tap the head and body allowing your apponent to know that he is being controlled, and struck. When practicing submissions, its a good idea to at first practice catch and release (nothing stranious).

Fourth: I think where most CMA schools miss the grappling game is when they begin teaching untested submissions and untested take downs. The key to grappling is controlling positioning on the ground, reversals, pressure, and sensitivity. Physics and knowledge of leverage is far more important than a collection of joint locks some CMA teach claiming to be teaching ground fighting.

Fifth: I'm glad you had the experience with ground fighting that you did. I think that most who try ground grappling with skilled grapplers think, "I can't believe I missed such a large component of combat." One also learns patience, pain control, fear managing, and developes a very strong sense of confidence (from knowledge that what he learned, he tested and can use). Some realize that had they not studied grappling, they would have been tapping out too quickly. Others incorporate ground control and submissions into their CMA arsenal. In any case, an individual discovers a whole new crucial demention to fighting.
MA fanatic

MA fanatic

04-15-2002, 04:20 AM

Someone mentioned Japanese JJ. I have to say that when put against a BJJ practitioner is a one on one fight, a JJ guy will lose. JJ does not teach any points of control on the ground. JJ is virtually untested (at least in over 100 years). JJ has numerous techniques but they are taught in a vacume (against students who cooperate with one another, uncontested classes with virtually no sparring). I have known a few jj black belts who would get tossed around by a friend of mine who is a Judoka. Though Judo came from JJ, it is the way it is practiced (contested techniques and full resistance training) that makes it presently surperior. Many masters will aknowledge that should kodokan Judoka meet a JJ practitioner, the Judoka would have no difficulty what so ever in throwing the JJ guy, and/or submitting him. I practice BJJ now, and we often have guys from Japanese JJ, Hapkido, Aikido and some who practice Chin Na come in to our practice session. It only takes them one class to realize that they can't pull off a single submission attempt from their arts. Why? Because they never practiced the technique properly (contested, with none cooperating partner trying to submitt or strike them), and their positioning is all off.
MA fanatic

dezhen2001

04-15-2002, 04:25 AM

good for you :) sounds like you have a good teacher and class...

david

MA fanatic

04-15-2002, 04:37 AM

From time to time I hear CMA say, "if only we would be allowed to use eye gouging and biting, we could defeat grapplers." I used to think that way myself. Nothing could be further from the truth. You never want to grapple an experienced grappler who is permited to bite or eye gouge. In a contest such as that, it is the CMA who would be blinded and/or torn to shreads. Also, eye attacks, and even biting is are not as easy to pull off. Most just talk about them, and hardly practice them. I think most CMA guys should just grapple instead of finding reasons why they have a chance on the ground with a superior grappler.

As for grappling tapes, I strongly suggest video aids by Marco Lala. They are jammed backed with techniques, excellent quality
and organized. He also sells his tapes for 19.95. I have most grappling tapes on the market. I own all of Marco Lala's.
www.fightingsecrets.com. Another excellent instroctor is Erik Paulson. www.erikpaulson.com For solo conditioning for grappling, I'd also with www.amerRoss.com Actually, all instructors have 'conditioning for grappling' tapes well worth the money.
MA fanatic

grogan

04-15-2002, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by MA fanatic
Someone mentioned Japanese JJ. I have to say that when put against a BJJ practitioner is a one on one fight, a JJ guy will lose. JJ does not teach any points of control on the ground. JJ is virtually untested (at least in over 100 years). JJ has numerous techniques but they are taught in a vacume (against students who cooperate with one another, uncontested classes with virtually no sparringMA fanatic

It all depends on what teacher you have MA Fanatic, some schools favour more strikes and others favour groundfighting with throws, you can't pigeon hole all JJ schools like that it all depends on where you go. My first school was all throws and groundfighting my second school was mainly striking and throws it depends on where you go.

Dark Knight

04-15-2002, 09:13 AM

Grogan is right on this one. Japanese JJ is victum to mcdojo's like all styles. And I have seen some Ju-Jitsu schools who dont throw or go to the ground (I always wondered where it went, JJ has had it in there)

But I have met many instructors who ffel if you cant throw as well as a Judoka you wont progress. I have also met JJ guys who are all ground work and ignore the striking and throwing part, they teach it but dont work it enough.

Over all Ju-Jitsu suffers fromm the same problem most styles do, how the students train. The information is there, but the training is not.

shinbushi

04-15-2002, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by dre

er, actually, Classical JJ was made for Samurai In armour. Hence the absence of many Eye striking or biting techs.

Pre-Edo CJJ did have kumi-uchi (grappling in armor) but post Edo was for regular clothes, and in that era it was the hakama. (pladed skirt like clothes). It be able to bite or ete gouge you have to have proper positionand space to do it. If you do not know how to fight on the gound them you cannot do those techniques.

Ryu

04-15-2002, 11:01 AM

Jon,
It sounds like you're on your way to achieving your full potential! Congratulations on your training, and it's so nice to see someone with the humility and fighting spirit you have. I hope you go far in your abilities. :)
Everyone who has gone and tested himself on the ground with good grapplers has come to the same conclusions. Pretty soon it will be you who is arguing with the people who are trying to "bite our faces off." :rolleyes:
Seriously, congrats on your training. Stay safe, and train hard my friend. :)

Ryu

dre

04-15-2002, 11:40 AM

"From time to time I hear CMA say, "if only we would be allowed to use eye gouging and biting, we could defeat grapplers.""

For the record I never said I wanted to bite anyone.

So according to you no one can win against BJJ , not CMA, not even JJJ. I suppose we should all stop whining and convert now, while there is still time!

I love when people try to convert me to stuff. Generally, when I see anything new ,I take the most pessimistic/doubtfull view of it until it's porven satisfactoraly to me.

Tigerstyle

04-15-2002, 01:11 PM

"I've been considering learning some (more - my Mantis Sifu does some ground) ground from a regular wresler ,not a BJJ'er (I wouldn't if they were the last MA on Earth. . .)."

dre,
I'm curious as to why you feel so strongly against BJJ?

Thanks in advance for your response :)

Dark Knight

04-15-2002, 03:51 PM

Shinbushi

Thanks for pointing that out. I forgot to get to that comment. I have met Ju-Jitsu schools that have biteing and eye strikes as extremely important.

People should not look at what they think will defeat someone but go and find out what they do so you can counter it.

If I were boxing I would trin in boxing. If I want to beat a KF style I will learn more about it so Im not supprised. And if you want to know how to beat a ground fighter, learn groundfighting.

I like to keep a fight fast and standing up, but that does not limit to what I will learn.

Knowledge is a good thing. Try it.;)

fightfan

04-15-2002, 04:26 PM

Its not about converting anyone.
Its all about cross-training and putting it all together.
In other words, no one style is complete so complete the style you love.

dre

04-15-2002, 04:30 PM

Tiger : I've met lots lots of jerky BJJ'ers , I'd never be affiliated with that lot. I know all BJJ'ers (probably) aren't that way , but , admit it, a lot of them are. Arrogant and self-righteous dosn't win me over.

DK :If I were boxing I would trin in boxing. If I want to beat a KF style I will learn more about it so Im not supprised. And if you want to know how to beat a ground fighter, learn groundfighting.

I agree. Thats why I'm learing from the Wresler. I want to take on some BJJ. But I refuse to learn THIER system. It seems to lower youre IQ.

Archangel

04-15-2002, 05:08 PM

Check out this clip of John Hess vs Vitor Belfort. This was a NHB fight in Hawaii where everything was legal including eye gouges and biting. You can see how those "deadly techniques" do against Vitor's sportive techniques.

http://www.noholdsbarred.tv/belforthess.html

dre

04-15-2002, 05:32 PM

Who you quotin' with those quotes?

Dark Knight

04-15-2002, 05:43 PM

"I agree. Thats why I'm learing from the Wresler. I want to take on some BJJ. But I refuse to learn THIER system. It seems to lower youre IQ."

I dont do BJJ, but I do grappling. i go to grappling and BJJ sites and dont hear them speak nearly as much about other styles as I do here.

If you dont want to learn it from BJJ, try Sambo, or others that do MMA.

BJJ is not undefeated, and the Gracies are not undefeated. There are a multitude of options.

GinSueDog

04-15-2002, 06:50 PM

Dre,
Sorry to hear you had some bad experiences with a few BJJ players. I know that I can come off pretty self rightous and arrogrant at times, online at least. At the same time you shouldn't sell yourself short, the fact is BJJ is the best grappling art out there bar-none.Don't let your pride get in the way.-ED

P.S.-Good luck with your training. I hope you find a grappling system that can help you.

ewallace

04-15-2002, 07:28 PM

I agree. Thats why I'm learing from the Wresler. I want to take on some BJJ. But I refuse to learn THIER system. It seems to lower youre IQ.
:) Now that's quoteworthy.

dre

04-15-2002, 07:37 PM

GSD: Well , I'd say the Majority of the mantis (7* BTW) we do is chin na (seizing) in the traditional sence, but that's just the style. The majority of you're Mantis moves are going to come from the clinch range.

The wresler I had fun with, and was quite an experience.

I'd say that MMA is probably the best Grappling style, since in incorperates everything, while BJJ, well , is BJJ. But anyway , I have no interest in satying on the ground (how dirty ,lol) but I'd rather take it back to the clinch if possable.

DK: "I dont do BJJ, but I do grappling. i go to grappling and BJJ sites and dont hear them speak nearly as much about other styles as I do here. "

In my area there is one BJJ school (that I know of) , and the instructor that's there has said many, many, times that BJJ is the "best" martial art.

"If you dont want to learn it from BJJ, try Sambo, or others that do MMA. "

I would if they were in my area. For some reason I can get obscure animal KF, but Judo is impossable to find. . .

"BJJ is not undefeated, and the Gracies are not undefeated. There are a multitude of options."

Don't even get me started on those people. Belive it or not they're Human (so is Bruce Lee by the way, well at least he was.)

Merryprankster

04-15-2002, 08:03 PM

dre-

It's interesting you should say what you say about BJJer's. I think that's very interesting considering how many people have come to this forum that are convinced that their style has all the answers to every situation, that are convinced that there is no reason to learn any groundfighting even just for the purpose of getting back up, and that are convinced that "technique x," will suffice to knock out an incoming shot.

If anything, I'd say that most of the "TMAist's" I've met have been far more vocal about how great they or their style or sifu are than any BJJer...and with far less evidence to back up their mouths.

That said--I've met some pretty arrogant BJJer's too :)

Ryu

04-15-2002, 09:20 PM

I have too.
And I got a little bothered by it as well. But really Dre, they are not all that way. If the instructor in your area is .....well I'm sorry about that. What rank is he? Who's his school affiliated with?

I think working with the wrestler is a great idea. They are awesome people to grapple with! But you do need to be wary of submissions. :)
If you get a chance to work with some BJJers please do. Find some that are more humble. All of us have been choked out, armlocked, etc. I don't know why BJJers should be arrogant. They should be the least arrogant..... but unfortunately that's the way some people are.

Take care,
Ryu

SifuAbel

04-16-2002, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Archangel
You can see how those "deadly techniques" do against Vitor's sportive techniques.

There are few arrogant grapplers? :rolleyes: Ok, If you say so.

Ed,

Thanks for your prompt email reply.

diego

04-16-2002, 12:22 AM

all about way and say?.
Hey, dre why not just bust a cap, show them dre don't play"

scotty1

04-16-2002, 01:17 AM

LMFAO @ "It seems to lower youre IQ"

Dude, have you ever hung around on the Under/Otherground?

You'd love it there, so humble, and respectful of other arts. :rolleyes: As long as its not traditional.

All their 'discussions' come back to Dim Mak, LOL.

scotty1

04-16-2002, 03:54 AM

OK just for a laugh I found a thread on the underground called "I'm going to fight a Kung Fu guy!"

Here's the top four quotes:

1/Be careful of his chi. I may damage your soft organs

2/I don't want to hurt him, I just want to prove to him that his style is not practicle

3/you dont want this guy to flip out once he starts getting beat and bit you or poke you in the eye or some **** that might do serious damage.

And my personal favourite

4/guard against the dreaded DIM MAK

Any disrespect from a Kung Fu guy towards BJJ players is, IMHO, completely reaonable and fully deserved on the basis of the above comments.

:D

I'm just mucking about, btw. But I don't think the above were :(

I don't harbour any disrespect towards BJJers, arseholes are everywhere, BJJ gets the same treatment on some trad boards I'm sure.

Merryprankster

04-16-2002, 07:18 AM

scotty--

by way of response, I refer you to apeters thread w/regards to Kung Fu advantage over groundfighters. As long as that kind of stuff is taught as being "realistic self-defense," with no real proof conducted under as close to double blind conditions as you can create, they (universal they--I realize not everybody practices this way) are going to continue to get crap.

His sifu should be disabusing him of his notions...not spouting it!

But, there are plenty of people with attitudes BJJ and otherwise... that's just the way it goes.

I won't get into how entertaining a BJJ tournament is, just from a people watching perspective.

scotty1

04-16-2002, 07:28 AM

I hear what you're saying MP.

I only posted those things for a laugh, and to demonstrate that there is a lot of ignorance on both sides of the fence.

But it does **** me off when I go to MMA.TV forums and they are always ****ing on Kung Fu and trad. arts in general.

At least BJJ gets respect on this forum.

Ryu

04-16-2002, 07:37 AM

My good friend and training partner does have a black sash in Kung Fu I think. Even though he's more a MMA now, I always respected his stand up skills when we sparred. We were sparring full contact once, and I came in for a clinch. He was wise to it because he had been defending them so long, got out of the way, and got ready to launch an attack. :D I moved out of the way before he could get me, but the guy has strong legs, and if he had kicked me in the head after defending the takedown it might have been goodnight. ;) Its happened in NHB all the time. Kung Fu has very real skills. If you train how to grapple properly you have more opportunities to use those skills against them. Just my opinion. But I stand by the claim that if you have no experience groundfighting and face off against a grappler you won't have the necessary skills to defend or win.

Ryu

Merryprankster

04-16-2002, 08:03 AM

Yes and No.

It's a very grudging acceptance. A good deal of that is in response to the continual verbal pounding that many BJJ advocates administer, a lot of that is "self-induced."

But more deeply, it is the difference in training and the outlook of the participants.

By training, I mean that BJJ follows the Judo concept of randori--active training with "less dangerous," techniques yields superior application of those techniques, when compared to simulating dangerous ones. In other words, we have more faith in a boxer's punch than a karateka's eye strike--it's hard to practice an eye strike without losing training partners :). Kano had great success fighting traditional ryu's with this philosophy, so it has merit. Is it the end all be all... a different argument. But it certainly has merit. It's an issue of time management--there are only so many hours in a day, and it's more productive to try and beat the crap out of each other with "safe" techniques (throws), in a "safe" environment (mats) than it is to "almost but not quite," execute a throat shot.

Now, I realize that plenty of Kung Fu men beat on each other regularly, but you get good at what you train in--and when you are beating on each other sans the "dangerous," things, you tend not to get good at the "dangerous" things. Case in point--find a BJJer who is very good at heel hooks (considered too dangerous in BJJ) and I'll show you somebody who has crosstrained in Sambo (heel hooks are a staple in Sambo). The "of course, in a real fight, I'd change this to 'x'" holds little water with those who believe in this principle.

However, this sportive style training puts BJJ on the "fringe," of being a "martial art," in the eyes of many traditional practicioners (it's a SPORT, not an MA.) That same argument gets applied to boxing, judo, wrestling, kickboxing, MT, MMA, etc. So the respect is again grudging "Ok, yeah, it's got some good stuff, but it's a SPORT." The problem is that the dichotomy is just now starting to be dealt with--nobody took combat sports seriously before and now, it's clear that the things you learn and do in those sports have real martial value. It's hard to let go of the "it's just a sport," mentality for many people. Geez, I remember in an almost fight I had in high school, where my antagonist said "what are you gonna do, pin me to death?" Ironically, that's exactly what I'd do--and would have done 10 years ago--but nobody took wrestling (or boxing) seriously. Judo has suffered some of the same "sideways glance," due to it's status as an olympic sport... and think of how many people on here believe that olympic TKD is going to ruin it? The current rules are full contact, when it comes to kicks, and frankly, I believe that it will get VERY good at what it does and the overall dangerousness of its practicioners will get far better than it is now--because they will learn to kick, kick well, and kick with ko power. They will learn to do it against somebody who is trying to knock their own block off, etc. Sure, they'll have some holes in their game, but they'll be dangerous! Even San Shou gets crap about "not being KF," because it's a sport and they limit too much, etc...ironically, the guys on the underground think good San Shou artists are bad mofos.

Finally, you come to BJJ's western origins (I know it came from Japan, ultimately, but it's a different entity now). Take the flack that American Kenpo frequently gets from "traditional," arts, multiply it by about 100 for it's sportive environment---catch my drift?

The second is outlook--There isn't a BJJer that I've met who takes BJJ for self-improvement. I know that not everybody in TMA takes it for those sorts of reasons, but there is almost an utter absence of that in BJJ. I don't worry about behaving in a certain way in class (beyond obviously paying attention and not disrupting class), learning ancient traditions and values, or any of that. I don't have to hear about philosophy or any of that. BJJ, is, in and of itself, valueless in that it doesn't have a particular set of values attached to it. You as a person is you as a person, and BJJ doesn't seek to improve that some how.

For a lot of traditional practicioners, that's kind of repugnant.

yenhoi

04-16-2002, 08:24 AM

"... San Shou gets crap about "not being KF," because it's a sport and they limit too much, etc...ironically, the guys on the underground think good San Shou artists are bad mofos."

"There isn't a BJJer that I've met who takes BJJ for [character] self-improvement."

Its amazing how much difference 'how you train' makes rather then 'what you train'.

scotty1

04-16-2002, 08:36 AM

Good post MP.

And I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Maybe the traditionalists on this board are more enlightened than many, but I definitely see more healthy respect for BJJ on this board than for Kung Fu on the Underground. Maybe that's because we're not all traditionalists?

But anyway, thats not what the thread is about, sorry...

I'm going home. I'll try to be a bit more cheerful tomorrow. :)

Merryprankster

04-16-2002, 08:38 AM

yenhoi--

Preaching to the choir, man. :)

Mutant

04-16-2002, 10:30 AM

Cool post guys. And great insight and info Prankster.

I checked out that "i'm gonna fight a kung fu guy" post on the underground forum (which i joined a few weeks ago, but don't frequent or post yet)......and the funny thing is that grappleboy's post (the loser who started that thread) deconstructs over the course of the thread. He has no respect for his kung fu friend's training or art, based on misinformed and misguided stereotypes. His skills as well as his intentions were questioned by others on the forum, which was good and may have prompted him to actually think about what he was saying and planning to do. After he starts out ****y, he is reduced to a whimpering fool after he is called out by more experienced and skillful grapplers, and his self esteem reduced to pathetic smoldering rubble. It was amusing.

Maybe the GracieCD-ROM(TM) needs to be updated with a section on respecting other people... ;)

Having some moralistic and philosophical values ingrained into a fighting system is not necessarily a bad thing. Of course there will always be bad apples in any MA system, but i think that respect and controlling temper and emotions should be integrated into the training, as it is relevant in martial issues, as well as social issues. While many people may already possess these values, it is apparent that many do not. I think that if a student is taught potentially dangerous and harmful techniques, they should also be taught the context of when and how its appropriate to use the skills, so as not to harm themselves, their training partners, or others.

Talking smack about other styles can be fun and harmless if no serious malice is intended, this happens in many competitive sports. But when it crosses over into blatant disregard and disrespect for others, and threatens innocent peoples' safety, that is obviously not right.

Admittedly, Tradionalists who spout the dogma of their perfect undefeatable style like a born-again bible-thumper are just as obnoxious as the worst BJJ-Is-Invincable knuckle-dragger, or MMA-rules-&-everything-else-sucks wanker.........They just don't realize it yet.

shinbushi

04-16-2002, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by GinSueDog
Dre,
Sorry to hear you had some bad experiences with a few BJJ players. I know that I can come off pretty self rightous and arrogrant at times, online at least. At the same time you shouldn't sell yourself short, the fact is BJJ is the best grappling art out there bar-none.Don't let your pride get in the way.-ED

P.S.-Good luck with your training. I hope you find a grappling system that can help you.
A couple of my students entered the Machado Grappling games last year and did OK. The Instructors were great but for many of the students I have never seen so many gang tats in one place and the unsportsman like conduct on and off the mat. And the best part was a fight breaking out at the end of the tournament. And as Torrance is BJJ Mecca, so I think it reflects the tone of many of the students.

Dark Knight

04-16-2002, 11:57 AM

"It's interesting you should say what you say about BJJer's. I think that's very interesting considering how many people have come to this forum that are convinced that their style has all the answers to every situation, that are convinced that there is no reason to learn any groundfighting even just for the purpose of getting back up, and that are convinced that "technique x," will suffice to knock out an incoming shot. "

This was my point ealier. As fighters you want to be as rounded as possable. Believing your art has all the answers is closed minded and your limiting yourself to your full potential.

You may find after a few years of experience your best fighting comes from throws or striking or trapping or any other option.

Musashi said you should not master one weapon but know many. The same goes for fighting. Dont limit yourself, and dont assume that there is an easy answer to every situation. What works for one fightr may not work for the next.

Braden

04-16-2002, 01:22 PM

"and that are convinced that 'technique x,' will suffice to knock out an incoming shot"

can be paraphrased

"and that are convinced that 'one of their techniques' will suffice to counter one of our techniques"

Just throwing it out there for amusement value.

dre

04-16-2002, 01:37 PM

diego - Dre don't play.

Scott - "I don't harbour any disrespect towards BJJers, arseholes are everywhere, BJJ gets the same treatment on some trad boards I'm sure."

But notice that this is KUNG FU online, and there are Many BJJ'ers here (and BJJ trolls like Realek).

MW - Amen.

Scott (again) -"Maybe the traditionalists on this board are more enlightened than many, but I definitely see more healthy respect for BJJ on this board than for Kung Fu on the Underground. Maybe that's because we're not all traditionalists?"

No, it's becuase in the big scheme or MA, I think we're losing out, you're dying, they're gonna thrive. We will continue to decline, and they will grow. They are the "victorious" in the court of public opinon ,so they can say whatever they want. We're the losers , so we have to meekly accept what scraps are thrown to us. Ether we changes or we die. Or we make a serious challenge to BJJ.

Don't forget the BJJ practitioner is Human. And he can be KO'ed.

Braden

04-16-2002, 01:38 PM

"by way of response, I refer you to apeters thread w/regards to Kung Fu advantage over groundfighters"

It's worth noting apeters is clearly someone from MMA.tv trolling here.

"It's a very grudging acceptance. A good deal of that is in response to the continual verbal pounding that many BJJ advocates administer, a lot of that is 'self-induced.'"

Don't know what forums you've been reading. I'd say a good deal of it is in spite of the 'verbal pounding.' And I don't see how it's grudging. I can think of a half dozen kungfu posters here who have started taken BJJ, and a dozen others who train with BJJ players.

"The problem is that the dichotomy is just now starting to be dealt with--nobody took combat sports seriously before and now"

A common misconception. Someone (Blackjack?) posted a quote from the early 1800s where someone had written about the bad blood between sportive and 'tradition' martial artists, and if you disregarded the language, it was exactly what people go on about now. There are quotes from hundreds of years earlier from China, where 'traditional martial artists' talk about how the [sportive] wrestlers are the ones you've got to look out for and train to beat. There's absolutely nothing new about what's going on here.

"That same argument gets applied to boxing, judo, wrestling, kickboxing, MT, MMA, etc."

Really? You mean boxing the sweet science? Judo which fifty years ago everyone was training in, and which was a mainstay of Draeger's? Wrestling - re: quote from china; the japanese uses okinawan wrestling to form their martial arts; etc etc etc. Muay thai which long before the MMA scene was a favorite of martial artists everywhere who idolized and feared the harsh training? I've got to say, if you honestly think these arts have been hated and are only not getting grudging acceptance, you're reading from a much, much different script than the one I was handed.

"Even San Shou gets crap about 'not being KF,' because it's a sport and they limit too much."

You're confused. Sanshou is a term used to describe a training drill that has been present for thousands of years in every traditional chinese style. Recently, the term has also been used to describe a martial sportive venue. It is quite plain that neither of these things is a style of kungfu; this is what philosophers call a category mistake.

"There isn't a BJJer that I've met who takes BJJ for self-improvement."

Wierd, the last time this came up, everyone was arguing BJJ was great for self-improvement and going on about how humble all the BJJ bignames were, compared to traditionalists.

JWTAYLOR

04-16-2002, 02:09 PM

Shinbushi, I hate to say it, but just about all every big amateur tournament that I've been to in the last 5 years has been like that. Gang signs, profanity on their uniforms, students screaming they were going to kill someone. I can't, in good concience, ask the kids at our school to go to these tournaments. It's nice for the youngsters to compete in point sparring matches and forms competition. But they are around such a bad element from the "young adults" there that I would rather they stay home.

JWT

Ryu

04-16-2002, 02:47 PM

JWT, makes you wish MA did try harder to improve character, huh?
It's sad to hear that.

"No, it's becuase in the big scheme or MA, I think we're losing out, you're dying, they're gonna thrive. We will continue to decline, and they will grow. They are the "victorious" in the court of public opinon ,so they can say whatever they want. We're the losers , so we have to meekly accept what scraps are thrown to us. Ether we changes or we die. Or we make a serious challenge to BJJ.

Don't forget the BJJ practitioner is Human. And he can be KO'ed."

Dre, in all humility, we're not in a war here. Things evolve and change. In order to survive you have to be able to flow and adapt and know when to take a stand if you have to. But refusal to adapt with time is contrary to what kung fu teaches.
I started martial arts when I was 5, do you think I knew about BJJ back then? No, I trained hard and had to learn the hard way about it. Now it's a large part of my arsenal. I had to swallow the humble pill just like a lot of people. BJJ had to swallow that same pill when crosstraining became all the range (something that wins when others said it couldn't possibly).
I'm not saying to never stand up for what you believe is right. But know how to evolve and adapt with change. You'll be more prepared to logically deal with it.

Ryu

Tigerstyle

04-16-2002, 02:50 PM

"And as Torrance is BJJ Mecca, so I think it reflects the tone of many of the students."

Shinbushi,
Man that sucks to hear about what that tournament was like. In my personal experience though, I went to about four different grappling tournaments (2 in Vegas, 2 in Cali) and I never saw so much respect and appreciation for each other by the competitors. It was a huge difference from when I used to go to "open karate" tournaments (I haven't been to one recently, so I don't know what they're like now). The judging seemed very fair, and even when there were bad calls the competitors accepted them (not always happily of course :) , but better than I usually saw at a point sparring match).

I didn't really see any gang tats, but then again I don't know what to look for :p . The two tournaments in Vegas were big and had competitors from all over the country competing, so I don't think it's very fair to assume that what you saw in Torrance is a reflection of how "many of the students" that studdy BJJ are like.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not saying their better people than other people, I'm just saying they're like everyone else. You know how it is with that bad apple in the bunch and what not :) .

"But notice that this is KUNG FU online, and there are Many BJJ'ers here..."

I thought kung fu meant skill acquired through hard work (or something like that), not "Chinese" skill acquired through hard work :p .

dre

04-16-2002, 03:05 PM

Ryu - "Things evolve and change. In order to survive you have to be able to flow and adapt and know when to take a stand if you have to"

I agree. Thats what the paragraph was about. I think my grammar wasn't right when I said " Ether we [make] changes or we die [sic]" lol.

In reality, KF can not really afford to loose more people to BJJ (or anyhtong really) they have few enough to begin with. There should be a renewal within the system. It is a war, a war for publicity, students , attention and "a place in the sun".

It dosen't look Sunny here :

Think about it. How many people know Eagle Claw? And how many know TKD or BJJ? We're definatly losing out somehow.

Another problem is Contempo Wushu and it's own *******ization of the system. . .

I should also say that KF is NOT my first MA , I am much better in European Fencing and it's various weapons , that , too , is a dying one. I seem to be very good at picking the more unusual Martial arts. . .

Tigerstyle : It dosen't really surprise me how the BJJ'ers act when they get tougether. What other way would they act if they're so full of Gangs like others claim?

dre

04-16-2002, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Ryu
I have too.
And I got a little bothered by it as well. But really Dre, they are not all that way. If the instructor in your area is .....well I'm sorry about that. What rank is he? Who's his school affiliated with?

I think working with the wrestler is a great idea. They are awesome people to grapple with! But you do need to be wary of submissions. :)
If you get a chance to work with some BJJers please do. Find some that are more humble. All of us have been choked out, armlocked, etc. I don't know why BJJers should be arrogant. They should be the least arrogant..... but unfortunately that's the way some people are.

Take care,
Ryu

Forgot to answer this , so I'll go ahead. The instructor is a Purple belt (thats the BJJ equivalent of an instructor, no?). He runs and owns the NYMAG (New York Martial Arts Gym) in my area. I Don't know who teaches him or where he's from though.

Nope, even if you twist my arm , I still won't do BJJ :)

And for fun heres some nice quotes that all you TMS people will fall in love with :

http://www.fighttraining.com/forum/messages/12/810.html?1018927916

"I dunno, but if a kung fu guy can't beat one skinny jiu-jitsu guy, I don't know what makes him think he'll do any better on the street against a bunch of big guys." - The instuctor in my area talkng about Royce- Delucia match. (from his forum)

Merryprankster

04-16-2002, 08:26 PM

Braden--

Will you ever tire of finding threads I've posted on just to disagree with me? :) I mean that with the utmost respect of course.

OK--let's work with contemporary America here.

In the 50's and 60's it was a lot of Judo. EVERYBODY did Judo--even if it was something else :)

Then comes the era of Kung Fu and some Karate films, then Ninjas in the 80's and the 90's and turn of the century, you've got MMA as all the rage.

How many people even knew what Muay Thai was in the 80's? I bet Kickboxer was proabably many people's (unfortunate) first exposure to the style. I know that I'd never had it lodge firmly in my mind until the first UFC I watched (I think I was 19, and I commented, before the bout--"hey, I think this has a bunch of knees and elbows?)

I think you're approaching it from the standpoint of somebody who's been doing this kind of stuff for awhile, and has been exposed to a lot of different things.

How many CMA'ers, JMA'ers, KMA'ers, etc believed they had a serious advantage over a wrestler? Or a boxer? Or a kickboxer? I'm willing to bet the number was relatively high by comparison to the total number of practicioners. How many times on this forum have you heard "kickboxing," used derisively? I can think of many. Then, and I really believe this, the UFC and similar events challenged the assumptions. All of a sudden there were some very real questions that had to be answered--now, open minded, well trained people like yourself already KNEW those questions existed, and had trained to answer them--but a GREAT many people, had not.

And, I'm NOT confused about San Shou. I know exactly that it is a format for competition, not a style in and of itself, technically. And enough people on THIS forum have commented about it not "really being Kung Fu," due to restrictive rules, training required for success in the ring, deriding it as "kickboxing with throws," etc, to make that stick in my mind.

And when I say the acceptance is grudging---I offer up dre as an example. For as many people that have embraced it here, there are just as many who want either nothing to do with it, feel it's just a sport and doesn't really have anything to do with self-defense, or that "Their style has the answer to that...they just have to be dedicated."

So when you say the script you are reading from is different than mine, I'd say it probably is. I'd say the script you are reading from is that of a well informed, open minded, well trained practitioner, where as the one I am reading from is that of the more average practicioner or interested person. After all, I still remember being a 19 year old wrestler going "hey, I never really THOUGHT about it, but that whole shooting thing can come in handy!" :D

Braden

04-16-2002, 08:43 PM

MP - Mostly I'm just a contrary *******. Don't take it to heart. ;)

Braden

04-16-2002, 08:55 PM

"How many people even knew what Muay Thai was in the 80's?"

I thought everyone did. ;p

"I think you're approaching it from the standpoint of somebody who's been doing this kind of stuff for awhile, and has been exposed to a lot of different things."

No, I'm seriously a putz. I'm learning slowly though.

"How many CMA'ers, JMA'ers, KMA'ers, etc believed they had a serious advantage over a wrestler?"

The ones who didn't check out wrestlers and ignored their history, I'm guessing.

"How many times on this forum have you heard 'kickboxing,' used derisively?"

To be fair, it started being used derisively as a description of kungfu men who fought like kickboxers but trained quite differently - which is a slight towards the kungfu men, not the kickboxers. In another sense, kickboxing evolved within a certain set of rules that emphasized (like boxing, and I imagine you would argue most striking arts, to which I would agree if only for lack of experience) maintainance of range and the percussive effect of multiple strikes as the way to win an encounter, rather than through superior position and breaking of structure - which I think we would both agree is not an admirable position with respect to self-defense.

"Then, and I really believe this, the UFC and similar events challenged the assumptions."

The assumptions of people who weren't paying attention to begin with? Ok.

"it not 'really being Kung Fu,' due to restrictive rules, training required for success in the ring, deriding it as 'kickboxing with throws,'"

I'm not sure who's saying this, so I can't respond to it. But sanshou not being kungfu has nothing to do with any of these factors. Sanshou isn't kungfu like strawberry ice cream isn't a type of car. Like the color yellow isn't a texture of sandpaper. They're utterly different categories of things. To make inclusionary or exclusionary statements is absurd.

"I offer up dre as an example."

Fair enough. I just wouldn't call the situation where some people love it, some people like it, some people don't care, some people dislike it, and some people hate it "grudging acceptance" so much as "what will always occur in any situation about anything." But then again, I tend to ignore most of the wierd kungfu guys here. ;p I think one of the reasons I reply to your posts is you're one of the few people here who's posts I still read.

"I'd say the script you are reading from is that of a well informed, open minded, well trained practitioner..."

In the making, I hope.

dre

04-16-2002, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Braden--
And when I say the acceptance is grudging---I offer up dre as an example. For as many people that have embraced it here, there are just as many who want either nothing to do with it, feel it's just a sport and doesn't really have anything to do with self-defense, or that "Their style has the answer to that...they just have to be dedicated."
:D

I never said the Style had an answer , (again I go back to Mr. Wresler. . ). I just said that BJJ is too big for it's briches, and it's time for them to be taken down a notch by some sort of combined system (NOT including their techniqes, no dbout there are other wresling schools out there). The only reason I shun BJJ is that it's full of , well, you get the point.

In other words " We're MA too , were mad as hell , and we're not going to take it anymore!" Or something to that effect.

dre

04-16-2002, 09:30 PM

Sorry for my 6 page long rant.

But I think I'm entitled to a littel despear/rage , seeing the "attitude" of some of the people arond me. . .

Oh well , it's all yours Jon.

GinSueDog

04-16-2002, 11:00 PM

SifuAbel,
Did you send me an email? Sorry my email address changed and I forgot to update my profile.

Dre,
Sounds like you have a really serious or half serious dislike of the one true martial art.

:D

As for everyone having gangster tats, well this is Southern California. Just about everyone and there gandmothers here are sporting tats. Besides the Machado tourney have a rep for getting a little out of hand.-ED

Unmatchable

04-17-2002, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Martial fanatic
"From time to time I hear CMA say, "if only we would be allowed to use eye gouging and biting, we could defeat grapplers.""

WHAT? no eye gouging, biting, grabbing the groin and in some events, headbutting... what do they do then... dance around and throw pressed flowers at each other??

Those are the most popular techniques I learn in my Tai Ji classes . It's not called
"YANG" style for nothing!

During each movement of the forms, as sifu call out the name of the movements, students call back the meaning of the application:

"Raise Hands"... "GOUGE THE EYES, SIR!"
"Left Ward off"... "BUTT THE HEAD, SIR!"
"Grasp the sparrows tail"..."GRAB THE GROIN, SIR!"
"Roll back"... "BITE THE GROIN, SIR!"
"Press".... "IMPLODE THE PROSTATE, SIR!"
etc. etc.

BTW Jon, why do you feel standup grappling will not free you from a clintch? Also why do you feel you have to betray your style, betray your sifu to be a good around fighter?

scotty1

04-17-2002, 01:20 AM

In another sense, kickboxing evolved within a certain set of rules that emphasized (like boxing, and I imagine you would argue most striking arts, to which I would agree if only for lack of experience) maintainance of range and the percussive effect of multiple strikes as the way to win an encounter, rather than through superior position and breaking of structure - which I think we would both agree is not an admirable position with respect to self-defense.

Have a word. I can see what you're getting at, but if I (as a kickboxer) kicked you in the legs and then combo'd your head so you hit the floor, would I not be in an "admirable position"?:)

Or presumably I need to move in close through "superior positioning" and "break your structure" (by throwing you on the floor) for it to be called Kung Fu?
:p

SifuAbel

04-17-2002, 01:44 AM

As a kung fu practitioner I am sick to death of all the "Dim mak" or the eye gouge/biting posts made by either reverse trolls or inexperienced students. That is not what kung fu is all about. There are no absolutes in fighting. I think the style vs issue hasn't been relevant as an issue since UFC 10. If you want to talk about purely striking solutions then you don't have to go far. UFc itself has many bouts with skilled strikers who have come up with their own stategies against grapplers.

Note: IMO there is a big difference between strikers and stand up fighters. For example "Stand up" fighters have no flow of movement beyond the walking stride range, they are trained to keep their feet somewhat close together and side by side. This is a no no when fighting one that prefers a below chest targeting range(meaning those who don't fight with just the boxing square marques de queensbury rules in mind).

There are a few rules I don't like in these kinds of events but the eye-groin-biting(groin biting? :eek: )issue is not one of them. So please, kung fu brothers, find better ways to describe your art's tactics. It makes us all look bad when this is used as an out for a technique.

Unmatchable

04-17-2002, 01:56 AM

If you have doubt of dim mak then you should also doubt the effectiveness of acupuncture. It is the Chinese medicine belief that human body consisting of many channel of energies. A person is sick is because one or many of channels got congested. With acupuncture, the cure is to open up the obstructed channel so that the energy flow through, returning back to normal flow; This is done by stimulating vital points mapping throughout the body. This alternative medicine with respected to western medical science is proved now to be effective. That is why it is wide spread.

This is one of positive and constructive use of this ancient medical knowledge. It is used to promote health, save lifes. As with many other things there is the other dark face (yin yang), a negative way of use of this medical knowledge. Which is the case using this to cause injure, illness, death to some individual by causing obstruction or cutting off chi/energy channels. It is the reflection of an image on mirror. Open to cure sickness. Close, shut off to cause sickness. It is just that simple. Acupuncture is certainly be used in the negative way. Dim mak is doing acupuncture without the needle. With respect to use the needle, if you think any body will know how to use the needle because it seem simple then you are wrong. With respect to striking, if you think everyone can strike the way the dim mak person strike then you are more wrong. The art also requires special training because ordinary blows do not have the same effect on these points. A special type of striking force must be applied, often at a certain angle(s). Time of day can also be a factor.

In the past, these methods or systems were secretly transmitted to those who were member of the family and those who are trusted worthy. The fact is that it takes a lot to prove oneself and gaining trust is already difficult not mentioning mastering the death touch art. The people who know these systems are rare and they normally don't want to publicly acknowledge.

There were many systems of dim mak which could cause damage ranging from light ( temporary disable someone ) to heavy ( killing ). A high skill dim mak person could do "a kill" without anyone awareness. My Master knew of one individual got killed from this kind of light touch. The victim was walking upstair in a restaurant. He crossed over with one individual coming down stair. There was a light touch like any normal contact on street or public places. By the time he realized it happenned, it was too late! Few days later, he died !

SifuAbel

04-17-2002, 02:07 AM

I wasn't dissing Dim Mak. On the contrary I respect it highly. But, how many people really know it? Alot of kung fu people don't know it. I'm saying that a relatively new student or even an advanced student can't "just use dim mak" to solve the problem. It isn't something that is taught everday to just anyone. So it can't be used as an example of a normal technique. Pressure points and such are very different from Dim Mak.

Unmatchable

04-17-2002, 02:13 AM

I agree. It's hard to apply presure point attacks on a moving target. It takes years of training, and practise to become proficient at such. Also knowledge of anatomy, and accupuncture would help greatly. Knowing how mutch force to apply, and the effects.

Merryprankster

04-17-2002, 06:07 AM

Groan. I have to say it again...

SifuAbel... is.... correct :)

in that:

--MMA stopped being style vs style a long time ago.

--If eye-gouge, headbutt, groin tear is the response to "grappling," you're long on tricks and short on solid fighting skill.

--striking vs grappling isn't really an argument. Each is necessary. Varying degrees of each are emphasized in any style.

--He's right about what a "stand-up" fighter would constitute.

--He's even more right about skilled fighters, who prefer to use their striking weapons, who have evolved highly effective strategies against other skilled fighters who have their base in grappling.

I really hate when you do this Abel. :D

Braden--I think "not paying attention," is just a tad harsh. It might be true to some extent, but still just a tad harsh. There's a tendency towards what Ap calls "belief preservation," and it's especially common amongst those with limited experience in/against other styles. In other words, people have invested a LOT of time in something, and they would really like to believe it's the end all, be all... Sifu starts to believe his own press after a decade and passes that down to his students, etc.

There's also the money issue--"combat grappling" has suddenly become "part" of the training in other arts. It is true that it needs addressing, but the way in which some schools go about it is sort of a blatant money maker. So I'll give you the truth that the whole thing isn't as extreme as I might have sounded off on.

And lastly, for dre--if you read this thread--there isn't a decent BJJer out there that will tell you that all you need is BJJ is a ring fight. What they will tell you, if they are responsible, is that:

1. Taking down a person who's not used to it is one of the simplest things in the world (way easier than hitting them)

2. If you don't know what's going on down there, you're unaware of the dangers. Most of the "dangerous," things in jiujitsu are counterintuitive. You might instinctively reach for your opponent's eyes, for instance, and be rewarded with an armbar for your efforts.

MA fanatic

04-17-2002, 06:21 AM

Someone mentioned BJJ gangs. LOL Is that another story now told by some KF masters to keep students. lol I have been training in BJJ for quite some time, and have to say that the individuals I have met are in no way different than when I trained in Hapkido and Kung Fu. They are all either sponsored competitors, hard working professionals, or family men/women and children. What gangs? LOL The only difference is, bjj teaches a student not to blindly follow a master, but to inovate, create and challenge your skills against other grappling practitioners. Nothing wrong with that. I should mention that historically, it is the Kung Fu schools which have gone through their share of "dojo wars" in the early 60s and 70s.

There are several components to BJJ. Self defense. Sport (gi and no gi) and Vale Tudo (no rules competitions). People chose what to train in. I'm sorry if anyone has had a bad experience with any school/club owner. There are few people certified to teach bjj. Those who are, are some of the nicest people you're ever going to meet.
MA fanatic