Racism in the MA!

[AndyM]

Ok don't get too excited.

I only recently joined this forum. I really like it because there are so many people here who are into the Chinese arts. I have been spending my time in a more general forum, and I picked up an impression that made me start this thread!

It seems to my ( possibly paranoid ) senses that a lot of Japanese styles are very 'Anti' other arts, and in particular the chinese systems. I find this hard to understand, as I have had Karate stylists being very rude to me about Kung Fu, and yet I thought that Karate acknowledged it's origins as Chinese initially.

What's the deal with this?

AndyM

[Sharky]

When i used to goto jiu jitsu (breifly) they used to cuss wing chun.

I don't think it's japanese styles, i just think it's pri.cks.

[yenhoi]

i THINK IT HAS TO DO WITH JAPANESE PEOPLE.

[Sharky]

k

[dezhen2001]

i think it has to do with people and their own attitudes, as sharky said before in his eloquent way :)

david

[red_fists]

Actually it depends on the styles.

If the style ends in Kempo/Kenpo than they do acknowledge their Chinese roots.
This is mostly true for Okinawan styles.

Other styles are either pure Japanese or have disassociated themselves from the Chinese ancestry.

[David Jamieson]

pettiness is actually common in all echelons of the social construct.

i agree with dezhen, it is a matter of an individuals views.

peace

[Kristoffer]

Japanese people ARE very anti- foreign like. At least in Japan. Just look how they thread the Koreans that live there. Or the GAIJINS (what did that mean now again,,,, white devil? sounds pretty racist to me)

[raving_limerick]

The problem isn't necessarily martial arts being racist, it's more culturally based. Look at it this way, the racial stereotypes abound on both sides of the issue-- there's American stereotypes and other stereotypes. Pointing the finger at the Japanese and saying "Naughty, naughty! You need to be pure and non-racist like US!" is a bit nearsighted, IMHO. There's racism among the Chinese, Americans, Brazillians, and probably even the Eskimos, so it seems pointless to slag on an entire culture for a facet that's present in our own.

On the other hand, I do agree that racism in any situation is bad and should be dealt with appropriately. I don't think that you have to be Chinese to learn kung-fu, or that Japanese styles are inferior, or anything like that. That's just childish.

[yenhoi]

The japanese are the only racist culture on earth in modern times.

[Sharky]

k

[Kristoffer]

No they're not

[Ryu]

The term Gaijin does not literally mean white devil. Gaijin basically means "foreign person." "Jin" is person, "gai" can sometimes be translated as bad or harmful, but in this case it's more just an "outside person."
White devil it is not. In fact, a lot of Japanese are very kind and understanding of gaijin. Some are not, some are *******s. It's just the person. Some are stupid, some are brilliant. Some are moral, some could care less about morals. They're not just "one" type of people :rolleyes:
But yes, some can be condescending and almost racist. Others are the complete opposite. In my experiences I've encountered more racism from the Chinese then the Japanese. ;)
But people are people. These kinds of discussions are silly.

Ryu

[AndyM]

Hi again guys,

just to point out that I'm not getting at the Japanese here, all the people I got that negative impression from were western people, playing Japanese arts. In fact, people who had probably never even been to Japan.

AndyM

[Kristoffer]

I have japanese friends so it's not that I'm flaming them as a people here :) I'm just saying what it looks like from a foreign-er-dude-whatever

[SifuAbel]

The cycle of abuse continues. Besides personal race, the reason for this anti-other arts attitude is best blamed on the individual teacher for passing on the idea. Competition between schools always lead to comtemptuous talk. "the guy down the street is no good, come be my student." It happens on a broader base between whole styles. This also dates back to the severe hate between china and japan. People have no idea that the prejudice they are spouting on about has nothing even remotely to do with them in the west.

Kung fu is weak chinese dance, do karate; Karate is japanese posing and they copied what they could from kung fu, do kung fu." As so on for a thousand years. It's stupid and its the teachers fault for training their students that way.

[Stacey]

Well in truth, Karate is a fighting style from China...when the Okinowan masters got to a high level they would go to china to pick up more techs to strengthen their system.

Chinese Masters did this too, but since they were already on the mainland, they didn't have to go far.


Think of it like England and the rest of Europe with swordfighting. English people went to Italy and Germany, but not many Germans and Italians went to England. English swordplay was very good, but the Italian masters eventually developed to a higher level with the rapier for single combat.

In Paradox of Arms, some English guy counters it all, but its basically the same thing in the Orient. The difference being that karate and Kung Fu are more similar than different. How can I go on about what they don't have? How do I know? I can only judge by their students.

Bottom line, it depends on how much they know, and how well the students can apply it.


Your style won't save you, knowlege and body intelligence will.

[red_fists]

Hmm.

Funny how I live in racist Japan with many other Ex-pats and we seem to enjoy it. Got japanes wife, Family and work for japanese Companies.

Gaijin = literally means Alien or a non-japanese Person.
Sometimes it is used in a bad way to insult people.
Gai = outside
Jin = Person

The corrrect term is "Gaikokujin" or foreign national, but most shorten it to "Gaijin" for convenience.
koku = Country.

Yes, Japan & Japanese have some racist tendencies and so does EVERY nation on earth.
:D

If Japan would be the only racist country, how about Israel??

Seeya.

[Chinwoo-er]

I think it is the result of many different factors. the first and most obvious is the "my style is better than their's" attitude. Definately a killer in multi-culturalism.

But I think there are other factors which is just as devastating that makes japanese practitioners become anti-chinese MA.

First, wushu and the unobvious nature of kungfu forms.
Now, we know how the performance wushu are like. And we are very clear on distunguishing between them. However, as far as the non-chiense practitioners are concerned, they are all just CMA. Nothing different. Hence, by relating kung fu with performance wushu, they find CMA nothing much flashy, unusful moves.

Also, if you look at our forms, to an outsider's point of view, they are very "flashy". Or as least, the meanings behind them are no obvious. Does anyone still remember their first lesson ? And how we kept wondering " what the heck am I doing ? " In JMA katas, their the meanings of their moves are shown. A kick is a kick, a punch is a punch. but for CMA, things ain't like that. Without this reference to their own style, they have no other conclusion but to state that they have no meaning at all.

Another thing. people tend to see kung fu as one style. Like karate. this kind of....... degrading of status makes it less imposing in the mind.

There seems to be a somewhat "fix" concept of what "fighting" is. the straight punch, hook kick, wrestling, ideas seems to be quite hardwired into the common people's minds. Together with reinforcements from training in that direction, people take it as the fundamental core of fighting. As long as this is satisfied, everything else is open to disuccsion. Now, if you demonstrate a CLF Sau quan, or a Mantis Dui sou, it has little resemblence with the fundamental core. hence, being classified as being "non correct" fighting techniques. Because it is not correct, it is of a lower form.

Actaully, i have plenty more. But I get the feeling what I have put down is already going to give rise to come controvasy. hence, I end it here.

[dezhen2001]

wow - this thread has got a lot of posts since yesterday! Hopefully it won't degenerate in to what's been happening here lately...

Every society is unsure of something it doesn't understand, hence ppl are generally more wary of other cultures. Hence when in another country, ppl of the same culture tend to stick together.

for example: the 'chinese students' at University as Sharky etc. mentioned already (in another thread). The Japanese/foreigner relationship is the other side of the coin. Both sides not sure of the other.

Of course, people are all different. For example, i have many friends at my Uni from all over the world. Most are chinese or malay/chinese in origin. But many others in my class have not even made any attempt at communicating or making friends with them. Kinda sux. Of course, my friends have not really been bothered or attempted to make any contact with them either. So it's both sides fault.

If you still follow this prejudice and are teaching others, then of ocurse it may pass off on to them. Hence the reason why there is so much beef in MA today between styles and cultures etc.

david :)

[lordabu]

i find it annoying, how people attack japanese for not liking foreigners.

This occurs for every race. I'll give you an example.

Indians call whites firenghees (what we used to call the british, it basically means white scum)

Gujus (state) , call all whites, "dhorias" and blacks "kalus" (usually as an insult towards their colour)

English likewise call indians "pakis", blacks "******s" etc..

Racism, only affects one person if you allow it to affect you. If you called me a paki id probably just laugh with you. I have reached that stage where mental abuse of that kind (or any kind) really doesnt bother me. I really dont care if people "swear" at me, as i have realised that swearing only becomes swearing if you want it. Thus in that same case, if you are being rude or racist to me i know that its aimed at me to hurt me, thus if i dont let it hurt me then voila we both become happy.

Most of you are lets say more adept and open minded then other people i have met, thus dont let racism ever become an issue in your lives. Next time someone calls you a *****, jap or paki etc.. just laugh, smile etc.. its their loss they dont realise the potential and beauty of your wonderful cultures.

Lordabu

[lordabu]

hmm where it says *****, i meant to say "ch*nk", just so you know :)

oh and im guessing you can figure out what comes after "blacks" :)

Lordabu

[Yung Apprentice]

I've never encountered racism on the behalf of asian people in my experience. Japanese, Chinese, Philipino etc. I give respect, I get respect. Even older asian people. Sometimes it seems if I go to a store or a resteraunt, a few might SEEM to be rude. But I think it has to do more with a language barrier, and cultral differences. But I wouldn't count that as being racist. Racism is in many places. I've been hated on by both white folx, and black folx, just as I'm sure people of both groups have felt racism by hispanics too.(I'm hispanic) Does that mean I feel that all are this way? Course not.

[AndyM]

Hi again,

I appreciate that some people may want to talk about real life Racism here, and I was afraid it might happen, but that is not why I started the thread. Please look at the question again if you would.

Don't start me on Racism ( English Bar Stewards ).

AndyM

[raving_limerick]

Originally posted by AndyM
Hi again,

I appreciate that some people may want to talk about real life Racism here, and I was afraid it might happen, but that is not why I started the thread. Please look at the question again if you would.

Don't start me on Racism ( English Bar Stewards ).

AndyM

I'm not sure I understand what question you're asking. Do you want to know why many Japanese stylists seem to believe that their arts are superior, or are you questioning the idea of style-bias in general?

I think the second question was rather well answered by Sifu Abel, while the first seems to be a matter of perspective. I think you'll find both problems in the CMA community as well, just expressed differently.

But if you're asking an entirely different question from either two examples, I appologize.

[AndyM]

OK,

I was brought up so as; someone asks me what I think of Blah Style...........I say "yeah, good style"!

Over the years I just keep coming up against M Artists who seem to be being told to say; what do you think of Blah style..........and they say " utter crap, Xway ot Noway".

In one case I am thinking of a particular Japanese style, nay club which regularly produces world class Kumite players, although there are no Japanese people in the club.

I appreciate you guys are saying "hey, thats life", but surely negative propoganda like this only adds to the confusion the public have over the arts in general.

I was asking why I got it more from the Japanese stylists than anybody else, but maybe this is purely locational, or a product of my own bias.............................................. ...

Ta

AndyM

[raving_limerick]

Okay, I see what you're saying now. Forgive me, I'm as thick as brick wall sometimes:D

Anyhow:

"I was asking why I got it more from the Japanese stylists than anybody else, but maybe this is purely locational, or a product of my own bias.............................................. ... "

I think this is, and take this with a grain of salt, a difference between the Japanese and Chinese martial art communities. While the Japanese seem to me to be more united in their opposition to other arts, there's definitely a lot more infighting amongst the CMA types. While karate clubs slag off on other styles, we bicker over lineage, north v. south, internal v. external... It's only after we CMAs are done fighting with themselves that we attack other styles. ;)

IMHO (and VERY humble opinon at that) I think that the difference really stems from the way that Japanese arts are very documented and regimented as opposed to a lot of kung-fu styles are more or less taught outside of organizations, with a few exceptions. Am I making sense?

It's just the nature of the beast, nothing really bad one way or the other.

edited for clarity. I hope.

[red_fists]

AndyM.

Might be your local condition.

I have met many JMA (done some as well) and haven't found that.

Most JMA will react when they are told that they are doing a watered down version of CMA or similar.

I think it is more personal than specific.
Look at E-Budo and even to a certain degree here on KFO and other Boards, where we have CMA, KMA & JMA Guys posting together. I still consider BJJ as a JMA. :p
Also over here in Japan most people seem to be very open to CMA and we don't get hassled by the JMA guys either, more of a situation of mutual respect.

Many places in Japan have CMA & JMA sharing the same space. Mine is one.
Said that I have found that even doing public training in the park is very different from my experiences in the West.
I often get approached and asked what style I do and sometimes People ask me to show them a thing or two in a friendly manner and than they show me one or two moves of their own.
Some even ask if I don't mind them training along for a bit.

Greatest memory was of a 2 mainland chinese coming up and asking why "I" as a Guy was practicing Fan Forms as they are traditionally only taught to women.
The Wife than asked to borrow my Fan and showed/demoed the Form that she had learned.

None fo this ego thing, like "Think you can take me", "Wanna, spar." & "Think you are a tough Guy", etc.

Somehow the Scene over here is more relaxed, often with a few styles practicing right next to each other and the occassional nod of approval.
Just some experiences from a Guy that does CMA in Japan.

[scotty1]

That sounds like an excellent situation to train in Red Fists.

[red_fists]

That sounds like an excellent situation to train in Red Fists.
Yes, it is very nice and allows for a nice relaxed workout.

The Place where I train on the weekend is in an open area of teh park behind a railway station and often People waiting for a Train watch us train.

One thing I like many People actually recognise that we do Tai Chi and I oftenn hear comments like "Oh, he is doing Tai Chi".

[lordabu]

red_fists:

"Most JMA will react when they are told that they are doing a watered down version of CMA or similar. "

Heh in that case most CMA will react when they are told that they are doing a watered down version of IMA (indian) or similar.

Lordabu

[dezhen2001]

:D exactly. everyone wants to think that what they're doing is the best...

david

[scotty1]

I go and train Chi Kung in the park down the road from my office at lunch if its a nice day. I hide in a corner away from all the townie kids cause otherwise I'd get no end of questions, probably shortly followed by abuse. And odd looks from dog walkers. And like you say the "do you think you can take me / wanna fight?" mentality.

England doesn't exactly have a proud tradition of respect for outside influences and practices.

[dezhen2001]

hehe. Know what u mean Scotty! I train outside whenever i can. it's not the dog walkers that bother me, it's the dogs! :eek: They don't come beyond a kinda circle around me, but just stand there barking away when i do qigong! The owners must think i'm nuts or something :D

I don't think most types of qigong would really cause the 'do u think ur hard?' attitude in others, but something like gong fu or karatre etc. certainly does (ime anyway).

Hey, what's with the text under ur nickname? is everything ok? :)

david

[Asia]

When I was in Japan I did the usually Karate, Judo, Kendo, Jujutsu thing like many othe kids but I also picked up Hakkyokuken and Hikesho (Bajiquan and Piqua chuan respectively) there as well I got more instresting remarks when pple saw me brandish a Chinese broadsword then my bokuto. As far as actual 'RACE" goes "Ore was kokujin da!" and I have had my share of racial incidents. (There was a time I heard a little girl whisper about our 'tails' to a friend. I responded in japanese the we keep ours in the same place you do. She found it funny too.)

[dezhen2001]

i think if people are unsure about something, or if it is something out of place (ie. someone practising MA in a park), then it will probably get a response, even if it is not overtly shown.

It's the same as the response i get when i go in to a chinese restaurant and order dim sum in my (limited) cantonese. usually one of surprise! :)

good reply though Asia :)

david

[scotty1]

David, thanks for asking, I'm fine :)

It was a reference to my old signature, Passed the 500 (posts), I was gonna change it to Coming up to 6, then I thought I'd just change it to Getting Sadder by The Post to signify my growing dependence on KFO.

Yeah, Qigong takes a bit of explaining to those who think all MA is Karate. I am actually going to post a thread for you about your Quigong in the Qigong forum. Check it out, my PM is unobtainable from work.

[dezhen2001]

no worries mate :) Just wanted to make sure if it was sad as in :( or sad the other way... i just realised the same as you - i'm well over 400 now and most of it has been utter cr@p! :D

i'll look at the thread, cheers.

david

us UK guys have to stick together (though few in number we make up by sheer Brilliance :cool: )

[scotty1]

I've actually noticed Americanisms in my speech and writing from hanging around on KFO.

Weird, huh?

Anyway..... I'l get me coat.....

[fgxpanzerz]

All anyone ever hears are the Chinese names. William Cheung, Hawkins Cheug, etc. Where is everyone else? No Americans? No one from Europe? ridiculous

[raving_limerick]

Actually, Emin Botempze's quite visably non-Asian... But, yeah, in the Wing Chun world, most masters and heads of the various lineages are asian. I don't think it's really racism though, as WC's really only been seen here for about two generations (even less for some lineages), so there's really not enough time to start seeing that many high-ranking practicioners, IMHO.

Likewise, you could say the same thing about western martial arts. When's the last time you saw a heavy-weight champion boxer who was a Gypsy or _______ (fill in ethnicity of choice here). How many Eskimos are master instructors of bata (Irish Stickfighting)?

It all just depends on your perspective.

[wushu chik]

Guys, I don't know what's more annoying to me...the racism (which i dispise anyway) or the sexism. I don't know how many times i have heard "You're a girl, what do you think you could do to me?" or "Aren't you afraid you are going to BREAK A NAIL?" That's the MOST annoying! But, I do agree...people always want to think what they are doing is the best. And in Kung Fu's case, it is...so it's neither here nor there! Just joking. There are still a lot of people that don't feel other races should be learning the arts!

~Wen~

[Tae Li]

I hear you Chicka, but lets let these ignorant poor minded people (no one in particular) have their speculation of things and we will laugh at them anyway;)


Originally posted by dezhen2001
[
us UK guys have to stick together (though few in number we make up by sheer Brilliance :cool: ) [/B]

Dont flatter yourself;)

[wushu chik]

Tae Li, you rock! That was hilarious!

[dezhen2001]

hehehe, wondered if anyone would notice that :p (hence why i posted it, to see what happened).

how r u doing anyway? me, premier and karma are in the chatroom if u wanna join us? :D

david

[Stacey]

Emin Boztepe is asian. He's Turkish, they once bordered China and were a nomadic people before settling down in Anatolia, or modern day Turkey.

There are lots of non asian Sifus who kick ass. Besides, Chinese people even discriminate between regions and ethnicities. They aren't gonna pass more onto some kid whose Cambodian or Japanese anymore that an Englishmen.

SIfus are human, they play favorites I think. If you are smart or somehow endearing, you get better teaching, whether a man's own country men endear him more is anyone's guess.

[Jimbo]

Stacey:
You're right. Very few people seem to realize that Asia actually extends all the way to the Mediterranean and includes Israel, all the rest of the Middle East, and half of Turkey (which is considered a Eurasian country).

Back to the idea of whether Japanese are more racist...I dunno, are we? I'm Japanese and don't find I'm anymore racist than anyone else. I try to view all people as individuals and judge them as such, but like everyone else I'm not perfect either. I've witnessed or encountered extremely racist Chinese, Mexicans, blacks, whites, Middle Easterners, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Koreans,and yes, other Japanese, too. Every race has its *____*s Also met outstanding people from each race. Remember, if you condemn a whole race because of some individuals or because of your own ignorant, warped perception, you're condemning potential lifelong friends you have never met yet. If you were lying in a gutter, beaten and helpless in any country, chances are most people would ignore you...some would take advantage and rob you or worse...but there are also people there who would help you at risk to themselves, too. Few perhaps, but they do exist.

As to why are most heads of martial arts organizations Asians...is that really racist? Look at most international organizations worldwide...most are headed by whites. Is that racist? Perhaps, or maybe it's who happens to be qualified for the position. There are also plenty of types of organizations headed mostly by blacks, is that racist? Since Asian martial arts originated in Asia, it makes sense many (not nearly all) MA org's are headed by Asians. I mean, come on. Do you really think it's racist that an organization based in Japan, such as Japan Karate Association is headed by Japanese? Same goes for Chinese, Korean, etc., org's. Why not ask why most basketball coaches seem to be middle-aged Caucasian men?
Jim

[Tae Li]

Jjimbo...took the words right out of my mouth :)

Tae Li;)

[raving_limerick]

Originally posted by Stacey
Emin Boztepe is asian. He's Turkish, they once bordered China and were a nomadic people before settling down in Anatolia, or modern day Turkey.

There are lots of non asian Sifus who kick ass. Besides, Chinese people even discriminate between regions and ethnicities. They aren't gonna pass more onto some kid whose Cambodian or Japanese anymore that an Englishmen.

SIfus are human, they play favorites I think. If you are smart or somehow endearing, you get better teaching, whether a man's own country men endear him more is anyone's guess.

Okay, I know that Turkey is part of asia minor and hence, part of Asia. However, I thought Emin was also born in Germany?

Anyhow, it is my understanding that even though Turkey may be geographically connected to Asia, its history and culture have been more linked to the Middle East and the countries surrounding the Mediteranian Sea. Hence, the Ottoman Empire, Roman conquest of Turkey, the lost city of Troy, etc...

Either way, it's a moot point. We both know that race and ethnicity has no bearing on a person's martial skill or other abilities. My orginial point was that while we can say that the CMAs are racist, so do many of our sports and martial arts when you stop and look at them.

I think that the only way you can spot a decrease or increase in racism is to examine the matter over a course of several generations. Context is everything in this case, methinks.

[Mr Punch]

I agree with you Jimbo. I've lived here for nearly three years and I don't think the Japanese are any more racist than any other peoples. And even though the Japanese seem extremely ignorant about most 'gaijin no koto' (and since we're on sweeping generalisations, unfortunately, most of them seem pretty ignorant of their own traditional culture nowadays too) they also seem rather more keen to learn than most people.

The English are pretty bigotted about some things, but we're also pretty bigotted against bigots! Unfortunately, most ignorant English people still think they know everything, and refuse to educate themselves... ahem:o , sorry!! Unfortunately, too, I've often encountered the old training in the park when some ****er comes and offers to fight me cos I obviously 'know karate'!:rolleyes:

But I'm with you two DZ and Scotty, we've got to stick together, and since this is a thread about racism, NOT because everyone else is inferior, but because we're the best!!!:D :cool: ...

Oh, and I apologise to you both about my Americanisms: my girlfriend is Canadian... I'm trying to teach her proper English innit!

[Mr Punch]

Sorry, AndyM, just checked my relevance to the thread again, and, surprise surprise, I'm talking bollocks!

I don't find the Japanese here are sniffy of any other styles. At one point, I've trained in a situation like that that Red Fist describes (in fact, I've trained in his dojo too, but not with him and not his arts!) where there are up to 15 or so styles all training in the same (very very big) sports hall (have you been to Shinjuku Sports Centre, Takadanobaba, Red Fists?).

It's great! OK, so everyone is kinda like "so wtf are those wushu ballet ponces doing", and "look at that shotokan nonsense", and "why are those bjjers snifing each others' crotches again?" at first, but then we're all like: "cool, did you see that flying double-back-herbert?!", then we'll go up and chat to each others' sifu/sensei and check out a few things, hands on.

I did find in UK that many of the Japanese stylists are a bit elitist. The kungfu boys just get on with it!

[red_fists]

.... (have you been to Shinjuku Sports Centre, Takadanobaba, Red Fists?).
[/QUOTE]

Been there once, it was great fun.
:D :D

[Sho]

If you say Japanese are racists, you are racist yourself. Don't generalise!

I am Japanese and doing a Chinese martial art along with judo and formerly did Okinawan Gojyu-Ryu karate. To be honest, I haven't experienced or bumped into any bad conflicts between Chinese and Japanese martial arts. We respect that karate was originated in China then brought to Japan and that's why karate was long time ago identified as "Chinese Boxing". Kara had a different character, which meant China and later on it has been changed to empty.

[guohuen]

I've known a lot of people all over the world and I can't say that any one group I've encountered is any more racist than another. Prejudice on the other hand does seem to be more prevelent in certain towns and cities here in the states. I remember an awfull episode when I was four. My mom and I took the bus from Lake Charles to Shreveport to visit my Aunt. We were waiting for the return bus at the station and I was thirsty. I walked over to the nearest water fountain and had a drink. When I turned around this old man in a white linen suit and a straw panama hat was berating my mother for letting her boy drink out of the COLORED WATER FOUNTAIN! My mom was crying and shook her finger at him saying " you get away from me and my boy you hatefull old man!" Made an impression on me to this day. I have no tolerance for racism whatsoever. If anyone was on Ft. Benning in 74, 75, 76, I was the guy that wrote the challanges with my name, a time and date responding to the racist graffitti. No one ever showed up.

[scotty1]

"I was the guy that wrote the challanges with my name, a time and date responding to the racist graffitti. No one ever showed up."

That's pretty brave man, racists being racists I'd have expected them to turn up with weapons and million friends.

[guohuen]

When your 18, 19, and 20, it's easy to be brave. Later on when your feet turn to clay it becomes more difficult.:D