Keeping previous rank.

[red_fists]

Hi All.

Here is anothre thing that occassionally pops up especially in JMA, not sure how common in CMA.
Especially with the MMA and trend of cross-training.

Joe Doe gets a 1st BB/Rank in MA XYZ and than decides to learn a new system.

Should he be recognised for his rank and continue to show his rank, or should he be treated as a total newcomer and start right from he beginning like a total newbie to MA.

IMO, any new student should be treated the same and no previous ranks or achievements should intrude into the new style.

I have seen some schools that not only even allowed them to show rank, but also to skip a frew grades due to their MA experience.

What are your thoughts on this?
Does your Sifu treat Students from other styles differently than newcomers?

[gazza99]

First you need to ask if the new style taken up is remotly similar to the previous one. The principles of movment, power generation...etc.. may be completely different.
However if the principles are similar, as well as many of the movements, I dont know if it would matter what rank the person kept. They would simply advance faster only becuase they were able to learn faster.
If you start another system you should expect to learn all of its basics, and be treated no differently. However without being able to wear your rank you may not be given the due respect from your new training parteners, they may just treat you like a newbie. This is the only downfall I can see to not maintaining your rank.
Another factor may be your reason for taking up the new system, if you only want to compare and contrast the upper level methods with your current ones, you may need to beg the question and see if you can at least learn more advanced stuff.

regards,
Gary

[yenhoi]

Rank is pretty abstract as far as im concerned, so I dont think that it should matter where you 'start' rank wise, except for one _small_ consideration - most schools do not allow you to sparr or have much contact until you reach the higher levels. So if you go from being a high rank in one place to a low in another, then your overall skill level could be impacted without some sort of 'deal' with the instructor.

[joedoe]

I got a BB???? Excellent!!!!!! :D

I think that if it is a different style, then you start from the bottom. You may progress quicker than others because of your experience, but you should still start from the beginning like everyone else.

For example, I have started a bit of fencing. My 15 years of kung fu counts for nothing and I do not expect it to. I have an advantage because I am used to training in a fighting art and my understanding of distancing and timing is better than most of the other beginners, but I am still a beginner nonetheless.

[Tigerdragon]

What we do is honor the Rank by letting them place themseves in the class line according to that rank. However, they will get a colored peice of tape at the end of their belt to signify their true rank with our system.

Manny martial artists work very hard at their training and acheive their rank through doing so. While that is not always the case obviously, you must give them the benefit of the doubt. That hard work should be regognized.

Just my thoughts.

[rogue]

I've seen a few visiting BB allowed to wear their black obi as long as they were just visiting. I've come across more who show up wearing a white obi when visiting. Their skill shows through no matter what the color of their belt. I agree with Yenhoi that rank is abstract. Start a new style, start fresh.

[straight blast]

I've always been a bit unsure about this one. The MA organisation I used to belong to (no names now :) ) used to run both Muay Thai and a form of freestyle Karate. If you had belt of any colour in the freestyle, you were entitled to the same coloured singlet in the Muay Thai faction. Alternately, the same applied vice-versa.

My protest is that I technically have a brown belt in the freestyle. However I know no Kata, no techniques, and none of the stancework. And the freestylers who came and trained in black singlets at MT got their asses kicked regularly by green singlets. This is without a doubt the most stupid system I've ever come across. Even the MT instructors (who also taught the freestyle) admitted that the freestylers didn't train half as hard or as realistically as the Muay Thai. But that's what happens when you belong to a big organisation I guess.

[yu shan]

belt ranking system and testing do not exist in CMA. only in USA where teacher`s want to make money. a flag goes up when a CMA school does these practices.

[red_fists]

Yu Shan.

I am not talking solely about Belts & JMA. and the I-Dan system.

Let me give you another example.

You get a new student from lets say Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Karate, BJJ and he is an assistant Instructor, you teach Wing Chun.
Would you treat him any differently than a total newcomer to CMA.

How about a Shodan in JMA that insists on wearing his BB and getting recognition for his rank in your Kwoon.
These days many people train both JMA & CMA systems and this situations are not that uncommon or unrealistic IMO.

We recently had a MT Guy trying to join our TCC class and he kinda expected us to give him credit for his 3yrs in MT.He left by now since he was reassigned to a new location.

[raving_limerick]

Personally, I can't imagine being so hung up on rank that you request to be treated differently than the other students when you decide to take up a new art.

The one, and I repeat, one exception that I can think of is if you were a highly respected/master-level martial artist, seeking instruction from another skilled praticioner of a different art.

But then, that'd probably be a private matter between you and the instructor.

[red_fists]

Ok, let's try this another way.

Granted, I know that traditional CMA has no ranks and tests.
Substitute "rank" with "years of practice".

I am also aware that different schools often within the same style have different approaches to skill recognitions/seniority.

So lets rephrase the question:
Would you treat a new student from another style/non-affiliated school with x yrs of training differently from a newcomer to CMA.

Would you let him stand with your seniors that are of equivalent study time or would you make him join the lowest rank of student.

Would you let him skip some basic training/drills since he has already done that in his other style.

Ok, lets hear it.

[raving_limerick]

Red_Fists,

As I understand it, the reason for basic drills is to ingrain various mechanics of the system into the student. Thus, unless you are talented enough to pick up a technique nearly immediately, there is still a point to the drills. Drills will help you learn, apply, and internalize a technique.

To use a different example. Say I've studied capoeria for several years and am reasonably proficient in it. Now, I've decided to take up some form of Kung fu. Over the course of the practice, I'm going to have to unlearn how I moved as capoeirista and have to learn how to move in the style of my choice. Sure, I may pick up the kicking techniques of the system quickly, but that doesn't mean I'll be doing kung-fu immediately because I know how to move from Capoeria. Then, the hand techniques come into play, but since I've been taught to use my hands in a completely different manner, I'll still have to train and drill them before I can use them effectively. In this sense, I think that it would be VERY beneficial for me as a hypothetical Capoerista-come-Kung Fu stylist to begin the class with everyone else and learn the fundamentals.

[red_fists]

Raving Limerick.

I am with you.
So far I have approached each style that I learned as if I knew nothing about MA.

Just trying to get Opinions from other People out there.

Interested in how the MMA and Reality fighting roups feel about it as well.

As well as from stylists where the get an accomplished Student from a similar style.
Example:
Chen & Yang Tai Chi, both are Tai Chi systems, but there are differences.

[joedoe]

One must learn to empty the cup. :)

[red_fists]

Joedoe.

Of course "emptying the cup" gets me thinking about another possible topic for a Thread, but more about that later.

[straight blast]

One must learn to empty the cup.

That is exactly what my WingChun teacher said to me when I started training.

Words of wisdom indeed.

[Merryprankster]

Whenever I visit my girlfriend's Kenpo school and participate, I always wear a white belt.... because I don't know Kenpo.

You should see the confused look on some people's faces though, when it's clear I know SOMETHING :)

[jon]

If i ever fight in a NHB tournament im gonna make it a personal mission to wear a white belt. Just incase i win then the other guy has to put up with all his friends and everyone else for the rest of the year.
Or even better, white with a yellow stripe. Then it looks like ive at least trained for the fight for a month or so.

[scotty1]

"How about a Shodan in JMA that insists on wearing his BB and getting recognition for his rank in your Kwoon. "

I'd tell him to put his BB up his arse and pull it out his mouth for him.

Sorry, but if I had a school NOBODY would be insisting NOTHING!!

:D

Ah, if only.....:)

I don't think that rank should be pulled in a new school.
Start at the beginning, if your skills are relevant, you'll be where you were in no time.

[shaolinboxer]

Rank should not carry between styles. That's like having a degree in english and demading you be recognized as having a degree in latin.

When dealing with branches of the same style....If there is an exam for shodan, let the person have a period of x months to prepare for the exam, and let them take it. Perhaps that's a good idea..your rank is kept with a period of time to pass your current level's exam.

[HuangKaiVun]

When I get new students, I take them right back to the basics.

When I get old students, I take them right back to the basics.

[Ray Pina]

New school, new teacher (even the same style) -- start from the beginner.

To walk in with an attitude that you hold some sort of rank, one could not start off with a worst attitude. First, you haven't proven a thing to anyone there. Second, if you're going to learn, one must go with a beginners mind.

I took 4.5 years off from Issin-Ryu to play HS and college ball. When I went back to me my school, I was a bit embarrased. It was like going home after not calling for 5 years. My sensei told me to take my place in front of class for our openening ritual: kneeling, bowing, the reading of school principles. I went back wanting to be a white belt, wanted to go over all the forms again.

A lot of it was still there, couldn't believe I remembered a lot of it, but it was embarassing wearing a bacl belt and being corrected in a purple or brown belt form.

My sensei was like a father, spent more time with him then my real father. He always treated me well. I went back during Christmas to say hello, he still had my picture up on the wall from when I was a little $hit.

[TaoBoxer]

White belt....Yellow Stripe...lolol...I love it. That's funny.

As far as the cross-ranking thing goes..... My experience as a student was ...... Shiney New Whitebelt..........Far-Left of the line. I started off from scratch every time. But not really....... Everything you learn is good. I used to hate it when I was a kid and in my early 20's, but to be honest, it was prolly the best thing for me. I learned the BASICS over and over and over again.

As a young teacher, when I have been asked that question I have tried to explain that we don't have rank...... and if they want to wear their tang soo do greenbelt to class, they'll be the only one ;-)

2 of my friends have had some experiences that bear mentioning.

My old Hsing I teacher moved to a city in Southern California. There....he looked up the lineage holder of his family of Hsing I. He had been practicing for well over 10 years with a black belt from WITHIN THE FAMILY. He was cross-ranked to GREEN. My friend had promoted several people to Black over the years. I found it pretty insulting.

Another friend of mine was ranked in JuDo, Kendo and Ju Jitsu. He came to the school where I met him..... a well respected Aiki school. He strapped on his white-belt and wore it for 4 YEARS...... untill he cross-graded to Shodan. It was soooooo funny to watch the other mookyu and white belts get so frustrated when he would eat them alive........

Rank is nothing....Skill is everything....Obey Your Tao.

Bill

[Hai_To]

I recently left a school where I was one of the more senior (using that term loosely) students. I just began a new style that I am enjoying immensely. I am the new guy, and I am treated as such. The other students don't look down on me. As a matter of fact, they are very helpful.

In order to learn a style you have to start from the beginning. What I've learned before means nothing, except that it may enable me to pick something up a little more quickly than someone with no background. When starting a new style, patience is definitely a virtue.

It has definitely been a learning experience thus far. A very humbling experience too.

[David Jamieson]

one holds rank in the place that gave him rank. elsewhere you are only you.
rank can be taken away at the discretion of those who bestowed the rank upon you.

There are various reasons for doing so.

Yu Shan, there are plenty of cma schools that use titles in their schools. Many Kung Fu schools adhere to filial piety protocols as well as occasionally belt systems. No flags need be raised. Even buddhist monks have different "ranks" in the shaolin temple pre and post communist rule.

If there is no rank in cma why is there a "sifu"? or a "sigung"? or a "sihing"? and so on...

However, loss of rank does not mean your body or your mind has forgotten what you have been taught or how to practice or even how to get better at it through practice. Even to evolve as a practitioner without the "rank".

In martial arts, "rank" is not important when held against your personal Kung Fu.

Even Generals get hit by stray arrows :D

peace

[red_fists]

Thanks everybody.

Great posts so far.

[Tae Li]

I agree mainly with what Gary said at the begginning (I aint repeting it, so go and read the whole thread;) )

But Rank is in some instances is not important at all, however in other instances should be taken into consideration.

When i first started TKD (i can see everone cringing and screew u if u are...lol), but my goal was simple to reach blackbelt, and these days there are not many good blackbelts in TKD, cos your flexibility on its own can pass you the test. Which is completely stupid. But when i think about it oday, I ask myself do I really deserve to have whatever belt I have, have I really achieved it? Am I good enough? ranking is only important if you want to teach one day, you need proof that you got very far right? and its important if you want to fight in tournaments, cos you simply have to...but when it come down to it, the only person who can really rank you is yourself, and the effort you put into your MA.

So thats just some jibberrish about ranking and its importance, but in terms of JoeDoe starting at scratch with a new MA and disregarding his other fighting style, I agree with Red_Fist if its ca ompletely different fighting style. Start from the bottom, and give people who have trained in atht style for many years some credit for getting to where they are now...but if your style is similar to their style then maybe a yellow bely is acceptable;)

But remember do belts really mean something? was it achieved properly in the first place?

Tae Li;)

Jon...your sense of humour buddy is s true healer:)

[red_fists]

Comic Interlude.

"In Okinawa no Belt, only Rope to hold pants up."

My best answer to the question if I got a BB is as follows.
"Yep, a back leather Belt to hold my .45 up"
Tends to shut them up quickly.
:D :D

Comic Interlude over.

[Tae Li]

Good one Red....lol...thubs up....I love tellin people im a whire belt and have only bee in training for six months and too afraid to progress onto yellow in case the belt colour fades out...white doesnt change you see....:D

Tae Li;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Tae Li

...
ranking is only important if you want to teach one day, you need proof that you got very far right? and its important if you want to fight in tournaments, cos you simply have to...but when it come down to it, the only person who can really rank you is yourself, and the effort you put into your MA.

So thats just some jibberrish about ranking and its importance, but in terms of JoeDoe starting at scratch with a new MA and disregarding his other fighting style, I agree with Red_Fist if its ca ompletely different fighting style. Start from the bottom, and give people who have trained in atht style for many years some credit for getting to where they are now...but if your style is similar to their style then maybe a yellow bely is acceptable;)

...


Ranking is not only for teaching - it can be a handy tool for teachers too. It allows them to gauge roughly what your standard is.

So when did I start a new MA? :D

[TenTigers]

When dealing with kids, I tell them that although they are starting in a new school, and the ranking and requirements are different, nobody is taking anything away from them. You are what you are. "When I go to sleep, or go swimming, I'm still a black belt, right? But I don't have to wear it in the pool, do I?" You won't lose what you know, you will only learn more.
Okay, that being said, when I get an attitude case, like, "I'm a so and so, what would I be in YOUR school?" I calmly say, 'Beginner.-just 'cause you're the pitcher, don't make you the quarterback." Then to soften the blow, I mention that with their experience, they will probably absorb the material at a faster rate and make swift progress. If they come from a traditional backround, then martial arts technique being based on sound principles of anatomy and physiology and physics, a gung bo, should be very similar to zen kutsu dachi, sei ping mah would equal kiba dachi, etc. There is another bomb that gets dropped on them sometimes, and that is depending on their backround, they might have developed some "bad habits" which might be hard to break. Again I try to reassure them that if we do something different, there is probably a good reason-alignment,physiology, etc. But if they know a better way to do something, or a better way to develop a certain skill, I am open-minded enough to discuss the matter. I see it this way, I would be pretty stupid to turn down a better method out of sheer stubborness.

[Tae Li]

oops:o

sorry JOE, but i am lmao!:D

the flu is getting to my head

Tae Li;)

[Mr Punch]

The first grade I took in kendo was ikkyu (one below shodan-black). this was not my choice. I started with no grade, but it obviously became apparent to my sensei that I'd handled swords a lot (through years of aiki, under a particularly sword-happy sensei!:D ), so I picked it up very very quickly. He said i was probably worth higher but that was the highest he was allowed to grade me to. I still think of myself as a beginner. But then I do in aiki most of the time too.

In karate, the sensei gave me the choice of wearing my karate grade with a black stripe on (for my aiki grade). I respectfully declined. The arts are not similar enough to have many transferable skills, and it took me a long time to pick up the karate basics.

In WC, I didn't expect and wasn't offered anything from my teacher. I just trained. That sifu was completely unconcerned with gradings, for money or kudos or whatever, and I loved it! It was a real let-out from the sometimes very pressurized aspects of training in Japanese arts!

The next WC school I went to had a sifu who was very into gradings. Out of respect I went for it, but I didn't actually give a fiddler's flying **** (oops, maybe that doesn't sound too respectful:rolleyes: ). If I had to 'do' a grading to learn the next bit of the 'curriculum' so be it.

The problem was, I did think he was a bit arbitrary in my initial placement. I didn't want a grade in the first place, but my standard was higher than that of most of his students who were higher graded. So, basically, I went from someone completely unconcerned with 'belts' to someone very disgruntled with my position.

Unless you can prove you have ability in the new art, or you are given the opportunity to show that you can pick it up much much quicker than most, it shouldn't make a difference, and you should start at zero.

I'm, ahem, gonna start a certain, unmentionable non-Japanese jujutsu-type art soon, and though of course I fully expect to kick everyones' sorry asses there within seconds, I do expect to spend at least the first few days in a white belt.:eek: :cool:

[Ray Pina]

Looking at the belt but the mind is the diamond.

[brothernumber9]

If you switch schools, you should start at the very bottom, if your training was similar where you came from then assuming you aquired some skill, one should be able to move through fundamental training quickly.

In regards to belts, when I first started training, everyone at our school wore a red sash. Instructors could wear black if they wanted but they wore red instead, even my sifu wore and still wears the red. After years though our student body has grown so that it is difficult to keep track of every student by just looking at them. In addition it is a sad fact that in this country (U.S.) people don't have the patience to practice one skill or form for more than a few months before they feel they should learn something new. So by the old way many felt they were being neglected or would lose interest and fade out of the school. The introduction of a small color scheme (yellow, red, black) of sashes in addition to a parallel color scale for the fringe of our demo uniforms (yellow, red, gold) have made it easier to keep a constant check on all the students progress and just as well has made a visual representation of small term goals to shoot for that has greatly improved continued interest in learning, even if they are stuck at a particular level for a time, they know that it is probably only one form, skill, or facet they need to improve on, to start learning the next thing. We still instill a brotherly system among all else. So seniority is not necessarily gauged on what color they wear, but more on how long they have been with the school and if they have continually trained and progressed, for instance some students have joined much later than one of my classmates had and now know more forms than he, but he is still senior to them because his skill is obviously better even though the number of forms is less

[Ray Pina]

I honestly believe the whole belt thing is a bit of a sham anyway.

Instead of spending a few months with these students teaching them a form, which will vary according to their athletic ability, why not spend three weeks teaching them the principles, three weeks studying them in technique lines, and then testing them with gear a few weeks later (not fighting, just power testing.)

Now, after 4 or 5 months, they may be on the way to becoming confident in one or two techniques. In 2 years, well, they might have some basic self defense, in three or four, O' they may be out the door ...

I see.

But there are those teachers that can keep on giving. If your stuff is good, business will be there via word of mouth. I think a lot of teachers string their students out, out of lack of depth regarding their own knowledge.

Not saying good or bad. Just saying.

[shaolinboxer]

" I think a lot of teachers string their students out, out of lack of depth regarding their own knowledge. "

That is so true.