Chi sau mentality

[CLOUD ONE]

Hey W.C brothers and sisters do you get a competetive streak in you when you chi sau either in single hand or double?

do you think this enhances your skill or surpresses it?

[Roy D. Anthony]

At first it helps you , but then you have to get rid of the competitiveness, otherwise you will have your skills supressed.
But also realize that the harder you try to get rid of your competitiveness, the more tense you become. The best way is to not think about winning, however just don't think of anything is even better.
Hope this Helps!!!!

[Sharky]

just think about what's happening, and don't use force for the sake of "winning".

[CLOUD ONE]

R.D- The best way is to not think about winning, however just don't think of anything is even better.

So is there a winner in chi sau?

Sharky-
''and don't use force for the sake of "winning'' ''

What sake is the force used for?

Thinking about nothing would that mean to meditate whilst doing Chi sau?

[reneritchie]

For me, Chi Sao is asking the way. My goal is not to win but to improve my WCK. Or rather, I win by being shown how to improve my WCK. Sometimes I'll even put myself in bad situations and try to recover. It's a journey, not a destination.

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

Sharky- I thought from your posts that you were more into boxing these days. But everyone has opinions of one kind or another and you have yours. What one does in chi sao depends on one's level of learning. Chis sao IMO(repeated often) among other things is the laboratory of wing chun where you begin to apply the principles of wing chun you have learned.... that includes structure, motion, function, timing, knowledge of the center, gates, clear headedness, reflexive-wing chun specific,
adjustments, instantenous interpretation of signals, distancing, spacing, adjustments among other goodies. Early competitivesness hinders progress in learning wing chun. You first have to achieve a reasonable level of conquest of oneself.

[yuanfen]

Alpha Dog-FWIW. Some things are common to chi sao- every time
including...minimization of muscle usage, calmness, inner stillness,
alertness, proper structure including hand positioning etc...also
one can have specific mindsets on given days in developmental chi sao, including such things as adjusting to heavy power, light sensitiveness, specific timing for a specific motion, flow from one technique to another etc. Chi Sao is an entire laboratory IMO.

[TjD]

when i chi sau, i focus on staying relaxed

and most importantly keeping an empty mind
that way i dont get stuck doing any one specific technique; and am free to do whatever feels the most "wing chun" at the moment

i try to chi sau without using my mind :)

peace
trav

[old jong]

Sometimes the loser in chi sau is actually the one who wins by learning more than the "winner"!...

[stonecrusher69]

I like to start out in chi sao doing it slowly .If you do it slowly then you don't have to worry about your ego so much and your tech will be better not so sloppy then slowly speed it up.

[Mr Punch]

I like to let people beat me so I can learn from them :rolleyes: .

No, really!

[red5angel]

AD - I think what you are trying to say is that, especially in the beginning, softness, structure, etc...does not come naturally and so you must concentrate on maintaining these. Like doing SLT your first few months, you know you are supposed to relax, keep your back straight, tuck your pelvis in, round the back/shoulders, relax, keep your kness in....but doing this takes time, eventualy it all falls into place and you know longer have to devote concious effort to do these.

[red5angel]

Gotcha, just wanted to clarify!

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
I meant too much awareness of the opponent leads to too much anticipation which leads to exaggerated reaction which leads to getting clocked.

Awareness of the pressure is all you need. Pare down the opponent to just the sensation of pressure and forget second-guessing of his intentions.

Agreed, but...


Forget there is a person there at all.

I think although this is a 'nice' ideal people will often try too hard to forget the opponent. This leads to a kind of 'double-take' of too much consciousness of your opponent, which leads to getting clocked. ... Sorry, very badly put.

In zen there is the concept of 'nen': literally 'mindedness'/'conscious awareness of mind'. Some authors take this a step further, so that you get a further step of awareness of your awareness so to speak... er, that hasn't made it any clearer has it?! Without getting too cosmic: you are at risk of being a beat behind, or even of establishing too regular a beat yourself, if you concentrate too hard on forgetting your opp: so you lose the spontaneity you were aiming for.

Hm.

[Alpha Dog]

Chi sao is just an exercise; besides, you'll only be a beat behind if you are training your reflexes to be defensive. Being proactive and going for openings that aren't there may leave you a step ahead and not in a good way.

what does Hm mean?

[Mr Punch]

sorry AD, it was a shorter thought last time!

an exercise!? somebody shoulda told me BEFORE! i wondered why all of my partners were ending up in hospital, and my kungfu still sucks!!:rolleyes: :D

but concentrating too much on your partner is detrimental, whether you are concentrating on ignoring him or on what he is going to do... ok, the ideal is to read the pressure/lack of, but if you try too hard not to think about the partner you will be mentally checking and kicking yourself whenever you react to him too consciously, or whenever you try (too hard) to be proactive.

this check is what leaves you a beat behind, whether defensive or not. it may also cause you to slip too easily into a discernible rhythm:

eg... one: flow from pressure; two: feel space; three: strike opponent; four: oh no! he said opponent!! bad man, oh no! it was me, I said it! etc; five: CLOCKED:(

of course, more realistically, if it's more reflex based, further down the wc road, it may be:

one: sense slight give and strike;
two: check self: ok; opponent: ok; realise you have opponent; correct realisation;
three: follow-up.

what i'm aiming for is (and i think you are too? i think this is what you were saying):

one: feel and strike, again and again, as necessary.

the above is what i would call the regular chi-sau mindset.



sometimes i want to up the tempo, and decide that whatever happens, i am in control. then i can play with my opponent. (oh, so is that all you've got!? oh no, there's more, keep it coming...!).

sometimes i want to play real slow, real mechanical... strike by numbers.

sometimes i want to play real slow and real soft, and not mechanical at all, and with no forward energy for my partner, giving nothing to my partner, and changing the direction of the energy: but only using forward energy when there IS an opening...

sometimes i want to compete: yep just for the hell of it, with an old partner i haven't rolled with for a while, with a cheeky (though god forbid, smug!) grin, and an all out forward energy slugfest... and then we stop when we get too tired and we're just trading bad strikes.

i think there are very many chi sau mentalities and i think i can learn from every one of them. maybe the best is to forget your opponent. but maybe the best is to become one with your partner so you can truly feel everything he does, and there are no blocks because his failed strikes have become your successful ones closing down his structure because you know it, feel it, see it, sense it, all the time.

i do agree with you. but unfortunately sometimes, in the great exercise of chi sau, i concentrate on forgetting my partner. and i lose a beat, energy, an opportunity, or whatever, and get CLOCKED!

so, i think there are many other things to concentrate on in chi sau, and trying to forget your partner isn't the most important part of the chi sau mentality. sometimes, if your partner is much better than you, just trying to read his body/action may be enough of a learning experience. maybe you are good enough to roll without thinking about your partner at all. i'm not yet.

;)

just a few thoughts. sorry it's a bit long. i love chi sau!!:D now, where the hell's my plane??!

mat.