Rare Wing Chun

[Leonidas]

Ok i becomed quite interested in Wing Chun again after hearing someone else mention Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, my limited knowledge of Chinese translates this to Red Boat style? Then stumbled over to VT Museum found that style and Chi Sim(Abbot Jee Shim's style) Wing Chun. I then found myself at WingChunKuen.com and found the mother load so to speak with about 20 of them. Some i've seem before like Pan Nam(Foshan or Shaolin) and Fut Sao(Buddha Hand) styles but i thought the were extremely rare. Not so, i found a Fut Sao school right here in NYC with NeiGung excercises(wtf??) and a weird form that seems to work like the Bagua circle walk(?) All this info is out there but most people seem to think that Yip Man is the unquestioned GM of Wing Chun. It seems when everyone talks about Wing Chun its Yip Man's style when all the other styles have there own flavor to it. I'm definitely not saying its anyone here, your all quite knowledgeable and way more so than me. I guess the real point of this post besides all the rambling is to ask how many people on this board study some of the less known styles of Wing Chun and could you give some info on it? Try to give as much detail as possible and you can even compare and contrast with the Yip Man style that we all know and love. Even if you dont practice it just post.

[reneritchie]

Hi,

I practice Sum Nung (Yuen Kay-San) Wing Chun (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung). You can also find this system in NYC (I think my sibak, Leung Dai-Chiu, may even start teaching again in China town eventually).

BTW- I think the characters they use for Hung Fa Yi translate as Red Flower Righteous.

Rgds,

RR

[byond]

hey guys,
well the rarest wc ive learned was the pan nam family....very nice system....i only learned the first 2 forms and the jong...there is a nice hei gong set ive always wanted to learn.....i also really,really want to learn the hei gong in the yks/sn family...hey ren...help a brother out,...lol:D ....
i learned the basics of hfy wc..i mean basics...it is a very deep,rich system that takes alot of dedication to truly understand it...and my path currenly leads somewhere else....
other than that ive activly studied and learned the leung sheung and sunny tang families...i also learned the first 2 forms of the william cheung family:( no jong though....

[raving_limerick]

I've just started learning Fut Sao. There's a guy on here who knows more about the system than I do, and goes by the handle of "Sam". Nice Guy. Be warned, our lineage is kind of a mystery/grey area and when it's discussed it seems to ignite a very heated debate. That said, I have no doubt in the abilities of my brothers and betters-- I've heard nothing but good things about Leung sifu and Cama sifu.

[raving_limerick]

Hey Rene,

I've got a question I'd like to ask you off the forum, if you don't mind?

[byond]

hey limerick,
i have heard great things about sifu henry leung...i here his medical skills are very great as well...my second sifu was a certified sifu under sifu leung before he(my sifu) changed systems..but had only great things to say about him(sifu leung)...
what do you mean it ignites a serious debate??whats the debate??

[raving_limerick]

hey byond,

Just check back a few months to the thread "Fut Sao Wing Chun?". It's not a mean-spirited debate, per se, but there's a lot of confusion regarding the lineage of the style. To be honest, it's not a subject I bring up with my teacher a whole lot, but all I know is that I can trace myself back to Sifu Leung. I don't know much about it further back than that (there's a lot of stories floating around, but I haven't gotten the "official" word yet, so to speak) and I think that's what a lot of people have taken issue with.

But, like I said, just check the archieves for "Fut Sao".

[Tongue_of_Colibob]

The Hawaii Wing Chun that I practice through the Wong Long-Robert Yeung lineage is different from alot of the other guys. Its not rare, its still the Yip Man Lineage, but it has a more aggressive twist.

[yuanfen]

Years ago I visited Yeung Sifu's class in Honolu and have communicated with Vigillo sifu. Each school has its own particular character. Yours is well within the Yip man wing chun circle.

[reneritchie]

Raving - On or off forum, no worries in either case. If you need to reach me via email: info@wingchunkuen.com

Rgds,

RR

[glenn richards]

Hi Leonidas
My original Style of WC was a Mainland Style which came from Leung Chun (the younger brother of Leung Bik).
Having said this however it seems there is little or no evidence to support this lineage although i do have a "complete" family tree right through to when it arrived in Australia in the late 70's.
Hope this helps
Glenn

[jesper]

"Its not rare, its still the Yip Man Lineage, but it has a more aggressive twist."

how is it more agressive ?

I have yet to stumble on a WC branch which advocate defence instead of offense. And they all seem to share the desire to pound your opponent to a pulp in least amount of time.

[raving_limerick]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Raving - On or off forum, no worries in either case. If you need to reach me via email: info@wingchunkuen.com

Rgds,

RR

Thanks Rene.

Got a bunch of papers and a portfolio review today, so I'll send you an email sometime tonight.

[yuanfen]

I have yet to stumble on a WC branch which advocate defence instead of offense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really? IMO- you have to learn good defense first in order for your offense to flow. I do not mean that you will always defend
but you need those reflexes. You dont want your attacks to be sloppy.

[dzu]

Leonidas,

I have the fortune of learning the Yip Man system, the Yuen Kay San system, and the Gu Lao system from my Sifu. I enjoy each one differently and they all have something to offer. I'm no expert by any means but they have all enriched my training. I explore them all separately and as part of a whole, depending upon my mood and what lightbulbs go off in my head that particular day. I am constantly discovering new things.

More important than the system, though, is the Sifu. Find a good Sifu and he will help guide you on your path.

Dzu

[reneritchie]

Dzu - Cool! I salute your dedication!

(BTW- Salute Dave for me too, haven't heard from him in a while).

Rgds,

RR

[Leonidas]

Thanx for the replies. I'm still trying to figure out how these styles are different from Yip Man's though. For example as i understand it, Pan Nam's style is a lot more artistic, flowing, and circular(probably because it was relatively unchanged from its origins in Shaolin, it fits the charactieristic of a Shaolin art atleast. Also Pan nam was known for training in Hung Ga and Shaolin.) than Yip Man's Wing Chun, which is more angular and simplified, really compact and linear (I'm most likely generalizing Yip Man Wing Chun but bear with me). Pan Nam also has its own set of Neigung if i remembered correctly which i never heard of Yip Man's style having. I also remember reading that Pan Nam's Wing Chun had a lot of dirty fighting techniques, mainly clawing, tearing, and ripping. They practice weight distribution, the centerline theory and movements differently. There are also no Pak Sao and surprisingly no Chi Sao. Punches come from the side of the chest and not the center. I think that they credit a Shaolin monk with the creation of Wing Chun and not Ng Mui. I believe they even had a name but i can't remember it right now. Doesn't mean either one is better just different. I guess it depends on your preferences or what you have access to.

[Tongue_of_Colibob]

I wrote my post on the wing chun that i practice when i was coming off of anethesia from getting my wisdom teeth pulled.....i dont really know what i was thinking :)

If anyone wants a really great book on different and rare types of Wing Chun, I recommend "Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun" by Leung Ting...He really did his homework in writing this book. It has the hand sets of many different lineages, including Pan Nam and Yiu Kay's.

Anyways, keep it real.

Jesse

[Wingman]

Really? IMO- you have to learn good defense first in order for your offense to flow. I do not mean that you will always defend

It is not a good defense if you are only content to foil the opponent's attacks one after another. Good defense is to actively counter-attack. When your opponent has made a plan of attack, we must anticipate him by delivering your own attack first.

This is what I mean in my signature, "Attack is the secret of defense; defense is the planning of an attack".

[reneritchie]

Pan Nam practiced Hung Ga (I think both Wong Fei-Hung and some village Hung) for the first part of his life, and I've heard he remained fond of it. He was introduced to WCK by Cheung Bo and ended up following Jiu Chao (Jiu Wan's uncle, and a student of Chan Wah-Shun's son, Chan Yiu-Min) to learn the system. Jiu Chao's system was/is pretty similar to Yip Man's (they even worked together on the Foshan constabulary). Later, Pan followed Lai Hip-Chi, one of Chan Wah-Shun's final students (who'd also picked up some Weng Chun from the Lok Family, who'd learned from Dai Fa Min Kam), and also exchanged with Pak Cheung, a grand-student of Fung Siu-Ching. Pan learned Ng Jee Mui Fa Hei Gung (5 Petal Plum Flower Qigong) from Ng Man-Long. From this, he developed his own system, still within the WCK structure, but with the empasis on the Hei Gung and the other aspects he preferred.

They do clawing, etc. but so do other branches (many hide those kinds of movements, however, so they're not as apparent)

There's Chi Sao, but not the Luk Sao (Rolling Hands) platform (which is really only found in Yip Man and Yuen Kay-San WCK). They do Aat Yiu (Waist Pressing) and other two-person sensitivity drills. And I believe Pan's centerline was from the shoulder, through the mid-clavicular, to the center, which is how some others do it as well.

According to Pan Nam and a writer named Law, Dai Fa Min Kam's ancestral tablet in the Lok family temple stated that Wing Chun Kuen was founded by Yat Chum Um Jee (Convent Founder Speck of Dust) of Heng Mountain, Hunan province, based on Kam Gang Jeung (Diamond Palm), Tong Long (Mantis), Ying Jow (Eagle), Tai Gik (Taiji), and other arts, who taught Cheung Ng, the master of propers of the Kwan Si Opera Company, who later took the art to the Red Junk opera.

Pan sifu passed away in 1995 at around 84 years old. I had a chance to see him on video shot just before then and he was impressive (especially moving around a *very* long, maybe 12' pole) even at that late stage of life.

Rgds,

RR

[Leonidas]

Thanx for the info Rene. I also forgot to thank you for the site link too, i read some of your articles, good sh!t. My only problem was that i didn't know who half those people were or how to pronounce there names :D. I got the general message though, it was a big help.

Does anyone have anymore info about any other fairly unknown Wing Chun styles? I especially wanna hear about Fut Sao Wing Chun, since theres a school near me. All i know about it is that it's lineage and general history can't be confirmed. I pretty sure that Henry Leung didn't pull it out of his ass so someone enlighten me, does the school atleast concentrate on fighting.

On a side note what is the function of trapping. I hear that term used alot when talking about Wing Chun and its supposed to be an important concept but i dont really know what its accomplishes. Thanx again

[Nat from UK]

A good book on the different lineages of Wing Chun is written by Robert Chu and some other guys can't remember either of their names :D :D

Well written and very well researched, can't wait for the second eddition with lots of additional insights hint hint Rene.

It will save you trawling through the different sales pitch's found in the other book.

From memory it was sensibly priced as well.

Nat from UK

[Nat from UK]

Way back when I spent 2 days with some Pau Fau Lain masters.

That was very interesting, lots and lots and lots of very long forms, dead dummy; chi sau quite circular and geared towards attacking structure rather then creating openings to attack the body/head.

I beleive these guys were THE guys of this lineage.

I have them on video doing there thing - nice stuff.

Nat from UK

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I am a practitioner of Leung Jan's personal system, Pin Sun Wing Chun, from Koo Lo village but have had the good fortune of training some Yip Man WC and Fut Sao WC. I was also lucky to have been exposed to Pan Nam WC and YKS WC and other fine arts. They are all nice and all have their own flavor. Find one that works best for you, and one you can get the best instruction from, and do the best you can for the art. The more you look back the more you will see what is more similar versus less similar. There is no one superior lineage and usually if they claim that you should walk the other way. Enjoy your training.


Regards,
Jim

[yuanfen]

Wingman: You are correct that only constantly defending means you lose.That does NOT contradict what i said. If you want to attack you need to learn defense first-then you know whether your lines are covered when you attack. That's a different kettle of fish. A person who only learns attacks is quite vulnerable because
all kinds of opeings and exposures are there for a fully trained person.

Leonidas: Yip Man wing chun --primarily linear, angular and without ripping/tearing?. Sorry- you have a very incomplete view of Yip man's wing chun.

[stonecrusher69]

If you want to find information about fat sao wing chun James Cama sifu has a web site www.buddhapalm.com. It should answer some of your questions about this art. Also ,yes the system does concentrate on real combat.

[Sam]

It seems that the growing trend is to study multiple arts or outside lineage arts as some sort of blue blood elitism. More is better or older is more legitimate. My Sifu always told me that hands tell. When you research a lineage it should be to let you know the reputation of the teachers you wish to train with not a badge to wear in order to boast or make money on.

[dzu]

I don't see any elitism in this thread. Just people answering a question.

Dzu

[Sam]

I was talking in general. I've seen this within my own style. My point is that even the same dish prepared by many different chefs have their own distinct flavors. The difference is that in fighting hands tell.