A question on TWC.....

[red5angel]

This is from the other string since it seems to have been hijacked.
After asking some questions and getting some pretty good answers, I am still curious about something. Phil Redmonds site has him doing the forms, some very good videos by the way, and in them I noticed his elbows were out instead of in towards the body. He has explained to me that this is characteristic of TWC, as they believe this delfects the energy away from the body. Does anyone else follow this idea?
The reason I ask is because I had thought that keeping the elbows in towards the rib cage was one of the few things that ran all across the board in wing chun. Are there other lineages out there who do this as well.
I am not proclaimiing judgement, or trying to, just trying to get an idea of how some of my WC brothers think out there.

[greedy]

That's funny. I'm a TWC bloke, and all of my sifu's, including the man himself, have taught me to keep the elbows in.

[anerlich]

Phil himself is the best person to reply to this Q, but ...

If you look at his tan, and fuk sao the elbow *is* brought in towards the centre. Not toward the rib cage, toward the centre.

The elbows are kept down, and in, where appropriate; with some movements such as bil and bon this is obviously inappropriate. The elbows do not hug the ribs - the arms have longer reach and work more efficiently if the elbow is allowed to move. In garn sao in particular, it is important to move the elbow away from the body, otherwise the sweeping hand will cross your own centerline, making it too easy for the opp to pin or cross the arms.

TWC also tends to raise the bon and tan higher than many other lineages, to protect the head, and it's hard to do that and still retain decent bridge strength if the elbow is kept unnaturally too far in.

All of that said, you do want to learn to keep your elbows in toward the center. Fundamental chi sao, for one thing, is not possible unless the elbow is in with fuk and tan.

IMHO.

[black and blue]

Anerlich wrote: "All of that said, you do want to learn to keep your elbows in toward the center. Fundamental chi sao, for one thing, is not possible unless the elbow is in with fuk and tan."

Q: How far in should the elbow be with Tan Sau and Fook Sau when playing Chi Sau?

My sifu says if the elbow is drawn too far in, this opens up the angle of attack. He advocates a "not too far in, not too far out" approach. This cuts down the inside and outside attacking angles and promotes the triangulation structure for minimal movement for defense.

Any ideas?

Duncan

[anerlich]

In single arm chi sao (and dan chi as well) the fuk sao elbow has to be further in than the wrist, so that it prevents the tan arm of the opponent from having a clear path to strike the body (so that the opp has to use his tan to move your fuk out, which you feel and so take evasive/retaliatory action).

Your sifu's advice is correct. Too far out, the body is vulnerable. Too far in, the structure is compromised, as is your reach, and you cannt move or react effectively. Ultimately, depends in the individual and on feel.

[black and blue]

Errr... another question :)

If the Fook Sau elbow is further in than the wrist, doesn't these create more tension in the shoulder?

The elbow drawn further in than the wrist would cut off the attacking angle of your opponent's Tan Sau hand, but wouldn't the 'dominant' position of Fook Sau alert you to any movement from the Tan hand. Sinking the hand would deflect the attack (as in Dan Chi Sau).

Keeping 'shape' is the bane of my training. :) A small deviation in shape and angle and I get whacked every time.

Duncan

Ps. 'Dominant' position of Fook Sau is my view only. I'm no doubt wrong - it just feels more secure to be on top of the bridge, rather than below it.

[anerlich]

If the Fook Sau elbow is further in than the wrist, doesn't these create more tension in the shoulder?

Not when I do it. You don't so much "pull the elbow in" as much as "rotate the humerus at the shoulder so the elbow moves medially." Even if it did tense the shoulder, it beats that pants off of getting whacked.



but wouldn't the 'dominant' position of Fook Sau alert you to any movement from the Tan hand.

Action is faster than reaction. No barrier, odds are he gets in first. Elbow in, you are occupying the path. He has to perform another movement to move your elbow out BEFORE he can strike - he has to make two movements to hit you, whereas with elbow out he needs only a direct strike at the target.

Plus, elbow in, you have more skin surface to feel any downward/forward movement on his part. It also makes it more difficult for him to huen around and over a fuk which is pressing down.

Your structure should prevent you from having to be faster, stronger, more sensitive, etc. than he. Which is basically your point:


A small deviation in shape and angle and I get whacked every time.

Of course, it don't always work out that way in RL. But it increases your odds of success.

[black and blue]

Yep... beats getting whacked :)

Have a lesson and a private lesson tonight... will play with elbow in/out etc and 'feel' the benefits.

Cheers for the tips,

Duncan

[red5angel]

Hey Anerlich, thanks for the lucid and well spoken explanation, what you say makes much sense, and I figured there had to be a reason for the "looseness" I have seen in TWC.

Black and Blue - it may help to know that as you get along in WC your shoulders will loosen and your elbows will be able to get in closer to the centerline without being tense!

[Phil Redmond]

greedy wrote:
>>That's funny. I'm a TWC bloke, and all of my Sifu's, including the man himself, have taught me to keep the elbows in.<<

Not trying to be funny mate, but since you're in Melbourne you should go back to Sifu Cheung and ask him again when he returns. If anyone on this forum has seen the video of Sifu Cheung's second seminar at the Ving Tsun museum he definitely say no to the elbow 'in' thing. He even demonstrates with Sifu Keith Mazza why the elbow should not be 'in'.

When you say 'in', what exactly do you mean? Sifu constantly tells us that if the elbows are placed in the center on the body that a force applied to the arm will go into the body. If you place your elbows to the side of the body the force will go away from the body which is what you should want to happen. Try this experiment.

Place your elbow in the center and have someone apply force to you arm. the person applying the force will be able to move you around at will. Either back or side to side. Now place your elbow just to the outside of your body. The force will go away from the body. Remember that you should use the TWC Wu Sao while doing this. Oh, BTW, I know that there are different interpretations of WC.

I studied other versions of WC since 1970. I was a Sifu of another version before I met Sifu Cheung in !983. I do know how to perform the forms of some other WC versions. I taught them. I chose what works for me.

[gnugear]

Thanks for the response Phil,

When I try your experiment with the elbows out, I can redirect energy away, as you say, but I can also feel tension build up in my shoulder. With the elbow in, and proper bone alignment, I can remain on the center line (and turn when force is too strong).

Thoughts?

[red5angel]

"I studied other versions of WC since 1970. I was a Sifu of another version before I met Sifu Cheung in !983. I do know how to perform the forms of some other WC versions. I taught them. I chose what works for me."

I have the most sincere respect for this so if at anytime it seems I am questioning you disrespectfully let me know.

As far as I know, that is why my lineage, or the way I am learning in keeps our elbows in. We want our root to absorb the energy and disperse it into the ground. to supplement this we do a lot of rooting work as well.

Is that video of sifu Cheung available to the general public?

[reneritchie]

Hi Phil,

Although not from William Cheung's lineage 8), I actually learned both, to bring the elbow to center when I wanted the body behind the force (for example, Chung Choi), and slide it to the side when I didn't (for example, Chum Jarn Gao Sao). Now I tend to bring it in when I want to project, and move it out when I want to receive. I've found it a nice way to play with an opponent's balance and momentum. (I'm having fun with transitions and changes lately). Have you ever played with anything like that?

Rgds,

RR

[gnugear]

Phil, do you have a link to the footage at the ving tsung museam. I tried to find it, but couldn't come up with anything. Thanks:)

[byond]

hey guys,

red5angel.....alot of wc allows the preasure to go through the structure like we train in the leung sheung lineage...it is fairly consistant with the older yip man students as well,...twc doesnt need to absorb force due to there footwork and positioning...there very mobile,,,,,,i like a mixture...lots of root..lots of chum....and good position...i can have my cake and eat it to...lol

ren.....im lucky i studied twc..that allows me more freedom in my expresson of wing chun....alot of things i use from twc are looked at by my peers as incorrect...they (alot of wc)tend to limit there power of expresion.....

phil.....is that seminar tape available????
b

[dzu]

I keep the elbow along the mid clavicular line between the sternum and the shoulder. The reasoning is that the elbow is in a more neutral position and can move in either direction (towards the center or out towards the shoulder).

During Chi Sau, my goal isn't to keep the elbows in a fixed position but adjust them accordingly to neutralize the force I feel. Using the mid-clavicular line is just a starting point.

Rene,
I play with things like that too :)

Dzu

[Gandolf269]

Phil says "if the elbows are placed in the center on the body that a force applied to the arm will go into the body".

I agree that this is true if the body remains stationary, but we are taught that, if the force is that strong, to turn in your stance to direct that force away from your body (or vise versa). One interesting note - after turning in the stance, the elbow ends up on the outside. Maybe the end result isn't that different after all; maybe we just take different paths to get there.

R5A - Good original post and great replies from everyone. Nice to see a level headed discusion without people getting bent out of shape.

[red5angel]

Gandolf269 says -

"Maybe the end result isn't that different after all; maybe we just take different paths to get there."

Good point! :)